Transcript 0:00 [rock music] Mm, honey. It tastes just like it costs Well, welcome back to Tasteland. I am Francis Sierra. And I'm Daisy Alioto. 0:18 And today, we are sharing the recording of our live show from earlier this month. 0:23 We were joined by three people from three worker-owned media companies that we really admire: Jasper Wang from Defector, Sam Cole from 404 Media, and Max Rivlin-Nadler from Hellgate. 0:36 And by the way, Daisy, how much money did we raise and for who? 0:39 We raised around $6,500 for a new legal aid fund for freelancers that the National Writers Union is incubating through their nonprofit arm, and we're hoping to raise 10K. 0:52 You can still donate, but, uh, really happy with the 6,500 and climbing. And- We'll put the link in the show notes... put the donation link. Yeah- Yeah... in the show notes. I loved this conversation. 1:02 This is one of the most substantive conversations I've had about the media business in a long time. 1:08 Hearing the way that the panelists are thinking about advertising and subscriptions was frankly helpful to me as a media operator, and it's just a reminder that even though we might have slightly different business models, we're all trying to solve the same problems. 1:25 Mm-hmm. Um, so I learned a lot, and I hope that you guys learn a lot too. Yeah, they were all really transparent, really candid, uh, really quite generous with the details. [rock music] So yeah, I hope you enjoy it. 1:37 Let's just get right into it. It tastes just like it costs Uh, thank you so much everyone for coming. We are the podcast Tasteland. 1:51 We're in our first year operating, and we like to cover issues involving technology, media, and marketing. 1:59 And so we thought a very timely topic would be worker-owned media, um, in conjunction with this fundraiser, which is raising funds for a legal aid fund for freelancers, uh, chasing non-payment and other forms of grievances, which is, uh, I'm a longtime freelancer, so it's a issue very close to my heart. 2:21 Um, so we have three people with us today. I think we're gonna just let everyone introduce themselves and outsource the bios to you. But, um, I'm gonna pass to my co-host, Francis, first. 2:33 Yeah, no, uh, thank you for coming. Uh, the theme tonight is definitely worker-owned journalism. There's... I, I see these three people and their publications as kind of like almost branches of one spiritual publication. 2:47 I don't know if they would like if I said that, but, um, you know, different departments of worker-owned media in the city. So Jasper, pass it to you. 2:55 I mean, I, we, Defector illegally sublets our, uh, office to Hellgate, so, um- [laughs]... there's plenty of cross-pollination. Uh, my name is Jasper Wang. 3:05 I'm the, um, lead business person at, uh, Defector Media, the sports and culture, uh, website mostly. We have some podcasts. Uh, we're known for Normal Gossip on the podcast side. 3:17 Um, we started in July 2020, so are in our fifth year. Uh, I am Sam Cole. I am one-fourth of 404 Media. We started in August 2023, um, so it's been a little over a year now. 3:33 Uh, we write about tech, um, a little bit of science, anything that kinda intersects with, like, humans being affected by technology and those worlds, which is, I guess covers everything at this point. 3:44 [laughs] Um, yeah, and yeah, we, um, we launched in large part because of the influence that we saw with, uh, Defector and Hellgate. 3:53 I don't think we would've launched at all if we hadn't seen you guys doing it and rocking it first. So owe a lot to these guys, but yeah, that's us. Um, I'm Max. 4:03 I'm a worker owner at Hellgate, which covers local news and politics in New York City. 4:10 Um, you know, we started in May 2022, very much influenced by Defector and, uh, very much advised by them when we were just starting out and trying to figure out how to get this going. Um, and so far so good. 4:25 Uh, it's been a very interesting few years in New York, so the timing was right. Yeah. 4:30 So Jasper, looking into all three of your publications, you kind of stand out as, like, the only person who doesn't come from a journalism background, but you're an MBA guy. 4:40 You're like the token business guy, and so I, in my, in my research, I kind of saw you as, like, the token business guy, again, for all three of these publications. To what extent is that true? 4:52 Like, to what extent are you informing, um, you know, this kind of rising group of worker-owned publications on that side? Totally. Totally. He's our business guy too. 5:04 [laughs] Um, I mean, I, I do think, uh, Defector, having started in 2020, uh, we sit at the intersection of a lot of conversations about this. 5:16 Um, we are so lucky to be asked to advise on, uh, many different, uh, new independent media, corporately owned or not, uh, launches, and, uh, that's a great joy o- of the job. I mean, I... The... 5:32 A frustration in some ways of my job is that I have a full-time job running my own company. 5:38 And so, um, anytime somebody asks for time, I'm happy to give an hour at a time, but, and I'm, like, I will tell you literally everything that we did. I'm not telling you that is correct. 5:49 I will be as transparent as I can be and tell you about our reasoning, but, um, y- it's sort of up to you to figure out if that works for you on first principles that you wanna follow. Um, uh, there certainly is that. 6:02 Like, I spent 10 years at Bain & Company of Mitt Romney fame. I have a Wharton MBA. 6:07 Uh, there are ways that I think-Structures, frameworks, sometimes just, like, a little bit of legal realism that I understand that is helpful. But by and large, what I always say when people ask is, like, 6:21 most of this is just trial and error, and you just have to go out and see how it goes for yourself. And so a, a formal business education is overstated for this, but everybody is really just 6:35 trying their best to fumble their way through this. Uh, trial and error. What were the biggest trials and errors when you were starting out? And then I'll pass it to y'all, uh, for the same question. 6:47 Uh, one that I always point to that is, uh, always a frustration for me around tax time is Defector Media is an LLC that is entirely owned by a corporation. It's a New York LLC entirely owned by a Delaware corporation. 7:03 I have to file taxes in New York and in Delaware. Early on, you just- an LLC costs like $150 to open in New York, so it just... it's like, okay, you now have a company. It's very easy to just, like, have a company. 7:15 It's why shell companies exist, because it's so easy to just open a new company. And then we realize, actually, an LLC doesn't really accomplish what we need, and now we actually should just be a corporation. 7:28 I still don't think that's right. Like, I've never talked to a lawyer who is like, "Oh, 100%, that's what you should have done." Like, I would love to dedicate 7:38 12 hours sometime in the future and just call a bunch of different lawyers who have perspectives on cooperatively owned businesses and be like, "What is... Where is the state? 7:46 What is the structure that we should register as, and we should tell other people to do that?" Like, we just sit here and pay all these taxes for no reason. And, um, it's... 7:57 I, I get to tax time, and I'm like, "Oh, right, we, we messed this up early on, and I wish I had, uh, called a couple more people." 8:04 Uh, but yeah, I would say my answer is gonna be a lot more vague than that because [laughs] we're only about a year old, so we've only had one tax season. 8:11 Um, but, um, I think the biggest challenge that we kinda knew was gonna be a challenge going in, um, but you don't really know it until you're doing it, is we don't come from a business background at all, and we didn't hire a business guy, which was... 8:26 I don't know if that was the right move or not. [laughs] It's yet to be seen. Um, but we're all from journalism backgrounds. We know how to do journalism very well. 8:35 We have, you know, like, 40 years combined experience between the four of us or something. Um, so we just relied a ton on other people, on Jasper [laughs] uh, who was trying to run his own company. 8:46 Um, and also just on, like, the, the kindness and goodness of, like, people who would give us 20, 30 minutes of time out of the day at a time, um, which it turned out to be a lot of people were willing to do that, which was probably one of the main reasons we s- we kept going when we did. 9:03 Um, we had connections from Vice. Uh, we, you know, were able to, like, retain a lawyer early, early on, which was important because we write about some pretty hostile, litigious companies. 9:14 Um, we were able to kinda get connections for, like, ad sales and things like that. 9:18 So yeah, I mean, it's-- it was very much, like, learning on the fly, um, and learning as we did it, and probably fucking up a ton as we did it [laughs] in ways that we don't yet know, um, have happened yet. 9:30 But yeah, it was, uh, a lot of our days consumed by business admin that we thought was gonna be kind of like, "Oh, we'll do that. We'll figure it out." 9:40 But it was really just, like, trying to do all of that plus the journalism, which was honestly exhausting. It's-- I think maybe we're just used to it now, or there's less of it, or we just set it all up at first. 9:50 But, um, yeah, it was definitely... That was really the hardest part is like, "Oh, shit, we're gonna be working, like, you know, 16 hours a day for a long time because we're doing multiple jobs all the time." 10:01 But yeah, that was probably the, the biggest kind of shock for us. [laughs] Yeah, I mean, I'll piggyback on what Jasper said about the fact that, like, the state and the federal government, just [laughs] 10:14 the state in general, does not understand worker-owned companies. Like, it doesn't acknowledge them in a way that makes any sense. 10:22 Um, I think there are, like, rules for cooperatives, um, that are actually very complicated and tough to fit into, um, and very specific. And what we're doing is not really necessarily a cooperative. 10:35 We're just a company that's owned by its workers, and not necessarily like... 10:40 I've reported on a bunch of companies that, like, claim they're worker-owned or are doing worker ownership models, but what that means is, like, handing out shares or, like, dividends at some point, maybe, to workers. 10:51 And, like, the owner gets a big splashy photo, um, being like, "Great job. You did it. It's worker-owned," and it's definitely not. Uh, so the state is not crazy about, um, our structure. 11:03 And, you know, Jasper called up a gazillion lawyers. We've talked to a bunch of lawyers too, and they're all like, "Oh, wow. Interesting. Uh [laughs]..." 11:13 And like, yeah, uh, we just know that we're overpaying our taxes just to make sure, like, "Please don't, don't get us in trouble 'cause we're trying." 11:22 One conversation that I've had a lot or runs through a lot of threads on the podcast, and especially like, I mean, Sam, you cover artificial intelligence a lot, but, you know, post-AI, increasingly clear that, like, the internet, um, solved distribution for media. 11:41 It didn't solve monetization, and a lot of the companies, like, I think, you know, a lot of us worked for them or freelanced for them, BuzzFeed and Vice, um, their, their success in the era of, like, traffic-based, click-based monetization was somewhat subsidized by venture capital as well. 12:03 And if you look under the hood, like, it's actually very hard to create a sustainable media business, especially if you're notSubsidized by [chuckles] venture capital. 12:14 And so, um, I think there are stopgaps around that, this idea of using social media to distribute. 12:22 But to me at least, the bottom is falling out of social media distribution or algorithmic distribution, like even faster than I think even any of us thought it would, even those of us paying attention to technology. 12:35 So it's a big question, but like how do you think about monetization? How do you think about the split between subscriptions and advertising revenue? 12:43 And is there a secret third thing, or should there be a secret third thing in the mix as we move into this new era, which feels like extremely undefined? 12:55 I mean, I can, I can just kind of give our like ethos on this a little bit. Um, so a couple months ago, we wrote a blog post, um, for 4/4 that the title, the headline was, "We Need Your Email Address." 13:10 [chuckles] Um, and basically just kind of ran through the reasons why, uh, we were-- we felt like we were being kind of eaten alive by these AI algorithms that... 13:22 And these algorithmic, algorithmic distribution models and also AI in particular, rewriting or just straight up ripping our stories and posting them automatically onto other websites. 13:32 Um, which is a big problem when you're relying on a subscriber model because that's walled stuff that sub- subscribers, you know, have the, the right to see because they pay for it. 13:44 Um, and then they can get it elsewhere, and it's like, what's the point? Uh, we also needed people to come to the website because we have ads. 13:49 So it's like that's part of our, kind of, um, diversifying of our revenue is we weren't just gonna rely on subscribers because that can dry up. We can't just rely on clicks because that definitely will dry up. 14:01 Um, so we kinda needed a little bit of everything. 14:04 Um, so the point of that blog was basically, you know, we want to be able to run a company that gives our content directly to you, um, because you're interested, because you pay for it, uh, because you've shown that you want to be here. 14:18 Um, and we can't do that unless we can get your eyeballs on this stuff very directly, and we can communicate with you in a very kind of direct one-on-one kinda way. Um, and people really resonated with that. 14:28 I think that was probably like our biggest jump in, um, you know, signups, free and paid. Um, and yeah, it was, um... That problem keeps changing. Like the AI scrapers keep changing. We have like the, 14:42 the Don't Scrape Us [chuckles] part of the website in there, but, um, they keep changing the way that that's done. So, um, it's more important than ever that people actually give us a way to talk to them. 14:54 Um, and that was-- People really resonated with that, and I think people resonate in general with, um, transparency, which is something that we couldn't really provide at a big corporation, a big corporate kind of, um, media outlet like Vice. 15:05 You know, we couldn't just speak directly to our audience because they were out there somewhere, but it was Vice, the company, between us. Um, so 15:15 yeah, that's been a, that's been one of the biggest kinda problems that we've seen, um, and have been trying to kind of find these like workarounds as a company that we control. Um, yeah, I'm curious what you guys 15:28 think about that question. I feel like it's a question we could talk about for the rest of the hour, but [laughs] It's a good one. Yeah. [laughs] Yeah. 15:34 I was jumping off in like a million different directions- [laughs]... when we were talking about that. But I, you know, that was like a seminal, uh, blog post 'cause we read that and we're like, "Absolutely." 15:43 Like, we were thinking somewhere in here. But yes, we like... Emails are sticky. People still read emails that end up in your inbox. 15:53 It is a great way to reach people, especially as social media, um, kind of falters or gets weird or becomes populated by evil spam bots and AI and things like that. 16:05 And, you know, Daisy, you were asking about like how much to rely on subscriptions versus how much to rely on advertising, and I think basically all of us starting with like the proposition of like our human writing and reporting is valuable and is something that you should pay for is something that I think other attempts at creating sustainable revenue and sustainable forms of journalism and amidst our tacitly fallen state, um, refuse to do and have a tough time doing. 16:38 And that, that's like never happened outside of PBS before. Like, the idea of that like, "No, no, news should be 100% free," um, is a recent, you know, last 15 years. 16:51 Obviously, the internet did that, but before then it was like not a thing. Maybe the Village Voice being like, "Okay, things are going poorly. We won't charge anymore and just fill this with sex ads." 17:01 But, you know, I mean, that's, that's-- I, I kinda go after them sometimes, but like I think that's a huge problem for nonprofit media is that they are totally reliant on grants that come with stipulations of you can never make people pay for this. 17:14 It's like, that is not worth the $50,000 that you just got for filling out a giant grant application. I can promise you that. I- I'll often say at Defector, we actually were subsidized by maybe not venture capital money. 17:29 I don't know if Gawker took what you would call venture capital money, but certainly subsidized by corporate media. 17:34 I mean, all of my n- the, the founding group at Defector Media included me and 18 writers and editors who all quit Deadspin, the sports imprint under Gawker, in 2019. 17:48 And they all built their personal platforms at Gawker, at Deadspin, and then we were able to build a subscription business around those platforms immediately. So I say that just to say, 18:03 I think people impute that Defector is very, um, subscription-driven as a matter of principle, and that is not the case. 18:12 It is because that was the best, easiest, most straightforward way for us to get money from day one.I am actually very agnostic about how media companies make their money. I, you know, I... The venture age is, is over. 18:29 Uh, venture private equity financing doesn't work. But in terms of, like, revenue qua revenue, subscriptions, advertising, grants or philanthropy, affiliate, sponsor content. Like, 18:44 I think the more people trying different mixes of revenue, the better it is for the independent media space. So Defector, again, we're s- we're still 80% subscription revenue. Um, I, I... 18:59 That will never drop below, I don't know. Next year in, in, in my hope, in my dreams, we actually add a lot more advertising revenue. So maybe that is 70%, 60%, uh, next year or the year after. 19:14 We're gonna be subscription forward just because that's what makes sense for us. I think that should be in the mix for most publications, but the, uh... 19:24 I, I don't think you should be re- religious about that being first. Uh, Max, one thing we were talking about a little bit before was public funding. 19:31 You kind of start touching on that with, uh, PBS, but I know there's a tax credit you guys are going after. Uh, I didn't know about any of this. Could you talk to some of the public funding? Yeah. 19:41 New York State kind of, uh, incredibly right at the end of the budget negotiations, uh, this past spring, included a provision that will provide, um, I think at least $90 million over three years for local news. 19:57 Uh, this is pretty much... There's been a few other attempts, but this is the m- most robust. 20:01 California did something even weirder, uh, right after, and we could get into that, but, uh, New York is coming up with basically a tax credit that will directly subsidize local news outlets, um, which is awesome and exactly kind of like the mix that Jasper was talking about that will help local news outlets, uh, survive. 20:23 Because, you know, as much as I was going a little bit after philanthropy, we take philanthropy. We love philanthropy, but... And, and there are interested parties that wanna help local news. We need that mix. 20:35 And, um, public financing is o- you know, okay for literally every other industry. The film industry, green technology, they all get public subsidies. 20:46 Why this has been, like, verboten for, you know, local news as if this is some sort of conflict of interest because there's been a lot of people who are like, "Oh, no, we shouldn't take money from the government 'cause we can't, you know, report, uh, conscientiously about politicians if, like, we're in favor of s- their legislation." 21:02 Which is like, cool. Uh, I'll take that money then. You know? That... I've got no problem with it. Um, we will see how it works. Uh, they're much like everything in Albany. 21:12 They pass something they have no idea what to do with or how to enforce and regulate, and there's a huge battle right now. 21:19 Uh, they might have accidentally left out nonprofits from it, uh, which is a [chuckles] huge problem. 21:26 Uh, even though we are not a nonprofit, uh, we, like, want other great local news outlets like The City and New York Focus to be able to get this money. Um, and you know, I think this is part of the mix. 21:37 It's a total no-brainer. 21:39 Um, and yeah, California tried something that would be even more radical, which would be going after the tech companies to pay their fair share, uh, for basically, uh, stealing, uh, content from news creators and then, uh, absolutely, uh, destroying the ad model for them. 21:57 Uh, and instead, right at the last second, that got completely, uh, hijacked by Google and is now a weird AI, uh, subsidy bill and, uh, we'll see what happens there. 22:08 But there's no AI funding in this tax credit, which is extremely cool. To me, it seems like the... not the only mistake, but the big mistake would be to say, "We'll never do this." You know? I think people... 22:22 The subscription model and the relationship to the community that it has, like, generates a lot of goodwill, whereas ads just sort of have this stigma to them. 22:32 And I understand the instinct to come out of the gate and say, "We'll never do ads, and that's why you should give us money." 22:38 But then you realize you don't actually know yet how many people are gonna convert, and I think I've seen people make that mistake. But the other reason why it seems to be advantageous to be open is, like, what... 22:51 These are small worker-owned businesses, but they're also essentially startups looking for product market fit. 22:58 And to Jasper's point, like, coming out of Deadspin, you, you knew who your audience was, and you sort of had product market fit there and were able to translate it to this new entity. 23:08 But the more you, you find out who's actually willing to pay and not just who says that they would pay or, like, your friends that are telling you do this or do that. 23:16 Like, you're, you're so intimate with that audience that you discover, "Oh, well, we're selling news as a product, but maybe there's some other product that they need, and they're gonna tell us." 23:27 And that product is revealed through what they read. Um, so I don't know. 23:32 I'm interested in what you think about that and, like, what have you discovered about, like, your real core willing-to-pay audience that you might not have expected starting out? 23:44 I think on the advertising piece, uh, I, I think that's spot on, Daisy. It, it, it, it gets a bad rep because I think we're all thinking of the... 23:53 God, I'm not gonna say any particular websites on the record, but you know, the sort of like, oh boy, autoplay videos, drop-downs. You can barely read, um, the website. 24:03 All sorts of research suggests that people don't mind advertising somehow. In some cases, they are perfectly happy to support you in that way, and you just want to meet people where they are in how they support you. 24:15 I think that is sometimes frustrating when we have these conversations as an industry of like, oh, Pitchfork, um, you know, laid a bunch of people off. 24:23 And people are like, "Well, that's what you get for not supporting Pitchfork." And it's like, what do you mean? They... 24:27 Like, what I could do was buy a ticket to the Pitchfork Festival or I could read their websiteAnd I guess I could should turn off ad blocker, but like beyond that, what more was I supposed to do as a consumer of that in order to help them succeed? 24:42 And as such, I think it's just the, the all the things I listed off, events, conferences, you know, what- whatever else there is in there in that mix, like it shouldn't take it completely off the table. 24:55 I mean, I don't know. At this point, am I comfortable saying we're never gonna, uh, feed your data into an AI scraper? 25:01 Like, I probably would say that, but beyond that, there's really nothing I would say, you know, that I wanna be on the record as saying we're never gonna do that. Yeah, I feel that. 25:09 We, we pretty much from the beginning were like, "We, we don't really know how this is gonna go." Um, you know, it's a very small team, and we don't really know what's gonna happen, but we want it to succeed. 25:19 And to succeed, we don't come from like a huge pile of savings. Like, you know, we're- we quit our full-time jobs to do this, um, including like all of our benefits and healthcare. 25:27 So, um, we immediately were like, "Okay, how many different ways can we kinda keep this going?" And it was subscribers and advertisers in the beginning. And the way we do ads, it's not just like chump box shit. 25:39 Like, I mean, I think there is prob- there was some of that in the beginning because we were getting it. You have to get it going. 25:44 [laughs] And like you're, you're at the bottom of like the sales tier, so, you know, you're selling your ads for like decimal points of a penny. 25:52 So it's bad, uh, at first, but now it's, you know, now that we're more established, the ads don't totally suck that you see on the site. Um, they're very minimal. 26:00 We were very particular about being like very, um, light touch with the ads. Um, you can't, you can't look at vice.com now, I'll say it, um- [laughs]... and without your browser imploding. 26:11 Um, you know, without ad- with AdBlock off, it just melts your fucking laptop. So we didn't want that, and we also were very picky about ads. 26:20 Like, we have ads in the newsletter, and that's why free subscribers are so important because, um, they're the only ones who see the ads in the newsletter, and those ads are very much picked by us. 26:32 Like, our advertisers are relevant to our audience, and they're not like scummy companies that we don't wanna see, you know, run. And we also get lots of feedback on those ads. 26:40 Like, people tell us when they're like, "You know, we don't ever wanna see that ad again." [laughs] "But, you know, we don't mind them in general." Um, so yeah. I think that's, that's like what you guys have been saying. 26:51 It's exactly right. It's like, um, I think there's like this expectation of like purity from the audience sometimes of like, "Oh my God, you're running ads, so like are you really subscriber funded?" It's like, yeah. 27:00 It's like 99% [laughs] of our funding comes from subscribers, but, you know, we also have to have this kinda like backup that helps us actually keep this thing going, um, in case the bottom falls out. 27:13 So that's our approach anyway. Yeah. 27:15 Speaking about responding to what subscribers want and kind of finding out, um, you know, we, we try to avoid a bit of the like parasocial relationship of like our, um, you know, subscribers are identifying with us specifically as opposed to the publication. 27:32 But I think what's really important, and we've only been talking about business here, but like Defector, 404, I Like to Think, Colgate, has really fucking good writing that people like reading, and that is increasingly rare on the internet. 27:45 And I think that actually is, talking about like the VC funding that Jasper was talking about, is like we all cut our teeth in this insane 2010s digital explosion of publications that came crashing down. 27:57 But we all put in stupid hours being like, "Here is a 300-word blog post," um, and got really good at that. 28:05 Uh, and I think there is a sticky generation of readers who that's pretty much kind of what they're gonna be looking for, is like who's somebody who I like and who I know is paying more attention than me because that's what I'm paying them to do is with my subscription money, um, and can tell me what to think or like how to understand something. 28:26 I'm not gonna say like, "We're gonna tell you how to think," but like something happened, or we found something out, and here's how you understand it, and it can help shape your world and your understanding of things. 28:35 Um, and people really appreciate that. And I think, um, good writing is really important and often let out, like totally left out when we're talking about local sustainable journalism or sustainable news outlets. 28:49 It's like, well, is the writing good? Like, is this enjoyable to read? Is this something that people want to pay for, um, is a really important part. And, and we're seeing that when we interact with our subscribers. 29:01 They're like, "I crack up about this very... You know, you guys crack me up, uh, even though it's all fucking depressing and sucks." Yeah. Um, speaking of fucking depressing and sucks- [laughs]... 29:14 uh, Sam, you guys put out a post shortly after the election that you'd seen a big drop in people or a spike in people canceling their subscriptions and saying like, "Oh, I'm feeling unmotivated by the election, and like I don't feel like I can support journalism right now," or something, which was surprising to me because I thought people would be like increasing subscriptions. 29:36 Like, I read Slate saw like a 7X increase in subscriptions. The Guardian also. It's like, yeah. Yeah. Well, did, have people come back? I mean, [laughs] yeah. So when you unsubscribe, we wanna know why. 29:51 [laughs] So we leave a little box that says, you know, "Give us feedback," or, "Tell us why you're leaving." 29:56 Um, you're not required to fill it out, but people were putting in that box, it was like the day after the election, people were putting in it like, "Depressed." 30:02 [laughs] And it's like if it makes you feel better to like clean out your subscriptions and like have that be like a productive thing, like that's great. Go for it. 30:10 We're not gonna be like, you know, um, "We're sad to see you go, but we're not gonna hold it against you." But at the same time, it was kind of like- [laughs]... it was confusing. It was surprising to us also. 30:18 Um, and yeah, a lot of people were definitely like, "I can't handle looking at the news anymore." 30:23 And it's like, well, it's everywhere, so you should probably, I don't know, pick some news that you can handle, [laughs] uh, or that you trust at least. 30:32 Um, so yeah, that was, um, that was the, just for the, for the blog post you were talking about. 30:36 We write a lot of blogs that are just like, "Hey, here's what's up," um, just talking directly to our readers, which we found to be very effective, um, 'cause people wanna know what's going on, uh, with this company that they're supporting. 30:47 Um, yeah, I mean, I, um-I would encourage you to go read it if you're curious about, like, what the whole thing says. It's like 1,500 words or something of us just [laughs] like ranting kind of. 30:59 Um, but we wanted to kinda lay it out there that, like, we're not going anywhere. 31:03 We're gonna keep doing the work that we've been doing for the past, you know, 10 years career-wise, but also, like, spe- specifically we were doing the same work when Trump was elected in 2016. 31:14 We did it for four years after that. We did it for the four years during the Biden administration. 31:18 We s- wrote some of our biggest scoops and our most impactful stories dur- during the Biden administration, kind of digging into, um, 31:26 you know, what, what was going on there and then we're not gonna just, like, throw our hands up and be like, "Oh, we're tired now because Trump's elected." 31:33 Like, we have to keep [laughs] doing the same stuff 'cause, one, we don't know what else to do. We don't have any other skills. And two, it's like people wanna want to be informed in a way that they... 31:43 It's, you know, it's like what, what Max said. 31:44 It's like they want to actually read s- read stories that are well-written and that provide that context to what's going on in the world, 'cause the world is very confusing, hard to understand a lot of the time. 31:55 Um, and yeah, it's like we were just very upfront with people. Like, "This is what we've done. 32:00 Here's all of the impact that we've had in the last four years or something, in the last year as a company, and here's what we intend to keep doing." Um, so yeah, that was... It was just kind of... 32:09 It wasn't so much like a, "Rah, rah, let's get after this." Like, it was not like this toxic positivity thing, but it was just kind of like, "Hey, if you wanna stick around, you're in for, like, continued good work. 32:22 Um, and if you don't wanna stick around, that's, you know, that's fine." But yeah, I don't know. I'm curious what you guys have kind of found in the last w- week or two, um, if people are, like, 32:33 I don't know, responding to, to you guys in a different way or no. Uh, at Defector we have, like, a f- a good week of new subscriptions, but not a spike. We didn't see a huge spike in cancellations. 32:46 I mean, most of the... I mean, we, we have culture and politics on the site, but we're largely sports. 32:51 So in some way we might be catching some of the runoff of, like, "Well, maybe I'm just gonna follow NBA coverage instead of, um, you know, hard news." Uh, I mean, we haven't positioned ourselves. 33:02 We have a message to the readers of, um, you know, like, does... To are we doubling down? Are we, you know, this is our promise to you after this election. So I, I, I think 33:14 the, the, the downstream thing that we are finding most interesting is Twitter continues to degrade as a source of ambient new traffic. Was it, was it 404? Did you guys write about, like, your hard data? 33:29 We wrote about Blue Sky. Yes. Okay. So I mean, we're, we're, we're over on Blue Sky. We- we're seeing just a lot of lift there. 33:38 And like, uh, r- even despite w- whatever small couple million compared to the hundreds of millions that are on Twitter, like we're getting a lot more engagement on our stuff. 33:46 And, um, specifically, uh, sports Twitter has been very sticky on Twitter, so only lately have they started moving over to Blue Sky. 33:55 Um, and so that's an interesting conversation we're having of like, uh, the old Twitter growth hacking playbook. 34:03 Uh, can we dust that off a little bit, pretend that it's 2013 again and, like, you know, sort of engagement, uh, not engagement farm, that's a, a very negative word, but like, you know, sort of like grow our voice on Blue Sky and use that as the next place to get, um, the additional new traffic coming in. 34:21 TBD on that. Um, the, you know, I wish Twitter weren't such garbage, but that's just the downstream effect we're seeing. Yeah, we've seen a, a pretty healthy bump since the election. 34:34 Um, I think that's a lot of like, you know, when much like in 2016, people kinda go into, like, fortress New York mentality of like, "Okay, well, what can our leaders do, uh, to, to kinda lead the way?" 34:47 Uh, don't look too closely. It's... They're not gonna do much. 34:51 [laughs] Uh, and, you know, we're in a really unique position here of, like, Eric Adams, you know, actively trying to, you know, gain favor with an incoming administration to save his own, uh, liberty. 35:04 Uh, so, uh, I think people are very interested in how this is gonna play out. We have a mayoral election in, in six months. You know, the timing of all these things, it's cool that people are turning to us. 35:16 Um, you know, we're still just six reporters, uh, hopefully a few more, but like, uh, it's, it's a tall order, uh, in a rapidly developing situation. But people have come to us, and, and Blue Sky's been rad. 35:28 That's, that's cool. Uh, I haven't dug around too much into who, how evil they are or in what way they will become compromised. But, uh, better not to look too much. 35:39 Yeah, I think nothing certain except death, taxes, and the, the social platform you somewhat rely on your income for will be canceled at some point. Yeah. Um, it strikes me that there's almost like, 35:53 uh, I, you know, coming again out of the election and when you have, like, The New York Times highlighting these conversations with swing state voters, or, like, people on the fence and they make the decision at the last minute, and it's like they give their reasoning and it's like, that makes no sense. 36:08 They're, like, vibes voters. 36:10 But I also have, like, long suspected that there's something like a vibes subscriber, where if you ask them, like, why they pay or don't pay, like, the reasoning really does not make sense to anyone but them. 36:21 And, like, Max, to your point, there's people who are paying, not for the long form journalism, but for the somewhat parasocial relationship they have to the humor that's embodied in the blogs that remind them of, like, reading Gawker at their desk job. 36:37 And I know for a fact there's Dirt subscribers where if I said, "Will you pay $60 a year?" They would say no. But you ask, "Would you buy two $30 baseball hats this year?" And they say, "Yes." 36:48 And it's like, "Wow, you are one interesting chica." [laughs] Or, you know, the New York Times person that's, like, paying for gaming or cooking, but they won't pay for, like-Long-term reporting about the climate. 37:00 Um, and I think I, I would be interested to hear from you. 37:04 I know we've been talking about subscribers for a while, but just on the matter of, like, messaging, that you could say to somebody, "This is, like, a $5 coffee," but millennials especially, like, are so turned off by that idea 'cause they're like, "That's my $5 coffee." 37:21 Well, it's probably $7 [laughs] now. Yeah. "That's my $7 cold brew." Like, paying for your journalism is entirely different and cannot be substituted. 37:30 Just like we went through the messaging period of, like, just don't buy avocado toast, and eventually you can have a house. 37:37 So I'm just curious, like, have you thought about your messaging and, like, slicing and dicing this in a way that's like, oh, you know, how do we, like, reach the person who's, like, just gonna buy merch and maybe they spend $100 on it, but they're not even paying for the writing itself? 37:55 Yeah. I mean, I'll just real quick be, you know, I think there are a, a healthy portion of our subscribers are, uh, supporting us 'cause of the model. I think, you know, we see big bumps when we do our annual report. 38:07 We see, like, big bumps when we get earned media. Uh, like a profile being like, "Here's what they're doing. This is their model." And, you know, people who are not in New York subscribing. 38:16 And, you know, uh, those are probably at some point gonna go away. 38:20 You know, if we luckily were able to make it, you know, a few years, and it looks like we are here to stay, I think people would kind of, like, less be interested in, like, oh, it's worker-owned and they're trying something new. 38:30 It's like hopefully a thousand flowers bloom, and we're just one of many worker-owned news outlets, and those people will go away. Um, and we gotta pre- prepare for that. 38:39 But I think, you know, we are selling the model in addition to our coverage, and I think we do that in a way that maybe some other places don't, um, because we found really early on, like, that lever works. 38:50 People like what we're saying, and they're sick of losing their local news outlets because of, like, the avarice or weirdness of a billionaire or, um, you know, that the guy who owns it is, like, uh, an evil political, you know, uh, functionary in the area or something like that. 39:08 So yeah, I think, I think a lot of people are glomming onto the model. 39:12 Um, and it would be interesting to see when that tradition takes, transit- transition takes place of people basically being like, "I'm subscribing for the news. Oh, what, you're worker-owned? I didn't even know." 39:22 Um, and that might be a, a day of reckoning. We'll find out. Yeah. I, I hear that. Um, I think a lot of people s- subscribe to 414 in particular because they, 39:33 they're sick of seeing, like, all their favorite journalists get laid off. Um, you know, we, we came from, we all came from Vice and, you know, Vice was going through a bankruptcy when we launched. 39:43 So it was very much just like, "We're launching this new thing because this old way is not working. It didn't work for them. It's not working for so many other companies, so help us try something new." 39:53 Um, and that's kind of the way we rode in the beginning, and it's like, is that gonna actually stick? Is it gonna... Are people gonna stick around now? 40:01 And we hope that it's like, now that you're here, we're gonna prove it to you all the time that it's worth staying. And you have to really bug people. You have to keep telling people, "This is why you should stay." 40:11 Um, we- at first we were very shy. We were like, "I don't know if we should be emailing people all the time." And now we're like, "Email them every day. Email them twice a day." 40:19 [laughs] No, we don't do twice a day, but, like, I know some people do. And it's like, it's you have to be in people's faces because they're getting a lot of noise everywhere else. 40:26 You can't just be, like, in the corner like, "Whoa, we're, we're a company over here. Like, please subscribe to us." [laughs] So yeah, and the parasocial thing is it's definitely, it's real. 40:35 I mean, I think that's something that we had to kind of have a learning curve about was when to listen to subscribers and when to kinda weigh, like, criticism versus, like, you actually know what you're talking about. 40:47 Um, you know, people give us unsolicited advice all the time. People openly root for us to fail all the time [laughs] which is wild to see at first. 40:54 Um, and yeah, it's like weighing what's worthwhile advice from someone who knows what they're talking about versus just someone who's, like, ripping off an email at you because they had an idea when they saw your email in their inbox. 41:07 It's like, you know, is that worth listening to? Is that a waste of time? Is it a waste of time for us to get together and talk about it even? 41:13 So yeah, that's, um, that's kinda the, that's, that's the vibes that we, we have [laughs] is people who are like, "We need to see something new. 41:19 This is a positive, optimistic thing in a industry that's very much collapsing." I mean, Defector at this point is four plus years, and we are at a size that is, you know, 40,000 plus subscribers. So it's... 41:36 I'm sure a good PR person would tell me this is completely the wrong approach, but I think for us it's a little bit like 41:44 you put all the messages out there, and not every one is gonna resonate with the every person who might subscribe. But hopefully some of them, some resonate with some people some of the time. 41:56 So, you know, we, we, in our subscription appeals and our messaging, sometimes we are very journalism first. It's just like, "This is the big feature we had last month that everybody loves. 42:06 Let's put that back in people's faces." Sometimes it is model-driven. Sometimes it is, you know, very much leaning into the parasocial element of it. 42:14 Um, I think it's, it would be very fair criticism to say we actually haven't segmented, uh, the people and the profiles of, like, who's trying to get to what. 42:24 But, you know, we have whatever, 300,000 email, um, email, uh, f- free email, email addresses on our free email list, and we just, we just send it out there, man. 42:35 And, you know, sometimes it's like, ooh, a lot of people did not like that. Like, a, a couple thousand people unsubscribed from that. They thought that was not the right message. 42:42 And it's like, okay, well, you know, that also drove 50 new subscribers, so, like, what's the trade there? I don't have a good answer to that, but it is still very much just a little bit more scattershot. 42:56 One other thing about, you know, subscribers is I think-Looking at these new companies, uh, that are worker-owned or worker-led, when people subscribe to them or make a donation or give them money, they know that the money is going to journalism, and that's really important. 43:12 Like, we are very transparent. Like, "This is where the money went. This is how much we paid freelancers. This is how much we paid us. This is how many posts we did." Um, you know, when you give to large... 43:22 I, I worked at NPR for many years. Uh, and when you give to that station, I could tell you the, you know, 15 other people this money will go to before it even comes close to going to the newsroom. 43:35 And, uh, listen, you know, they could go on during the telethons and stuff and say like, "Give us money. This goes to power the journalism that you want," and that's just not true. 43:46 Because why would that be the case that every time, uh, there's a budget crunch and they make those appeals, journal- journalists still get laid off? 43:54 So I think, you know, it's not only people believing in the model, it's that actually people are being savvy about that their money is going to journalism, and that's not something you can trust in, in other places. 44:06 Um, in terms of the editorial choices you're all able to make as opposed to the choices you had to make at previous more, like, institutional publications, um, I'm thinking of, like, a couple totally independent, like, just solo operation type of people I've spoken to recently who were saying, like, "I love being on my own because I can put my personality into it. 44:26 I don't have to, like, pretend at some neutrality when I'm reporting on an issue that, like, affects me personally." 44:32 Um, yeah, to the extent that, like, it's different running your own publications and having the full freedom in it, being journalist-led. Is there such a big difference in, like, the exact type of story you're reporting? 44:45 I don't think there's a huge difference for us. It's not a major difference. I mean, we, we were very lucky at Motherboard that we were pretty much left alone. 44:53 It was kind of like, you know, Vice is over there blowing shit up and Motherboard is doing okay, so they just kind of let us stay under the radar. Um, but, 45:05 yeah, I think that's in part because, um, Jason Keebler and Emmanuel Maiberger, who are two others of Four4f, they were editing and leading and managing Motherboard and they carried those kind of skills over to Four4f, and they were like, "We can spot when this is a wor- a worthwhile story." 45:21 You know, myself and Joseph Cox also have that kind of intuition. So it wasn't a huge shift for us, but at the same time I don't think any of us would have done this by ourselves. 45:30 I think that we all recognize that we need an editor and we need other people to kind of bounce things off of and to workshop things with and to say, "Is this worth doing? Is this too in the weeds? Is it, you know... 45:42 Is there a conflict here? What's going on?" Um, and without that, I don't know, I don't know what, how they do it at, you know, like, really small kind of like one-person show, like the Substack model. 45:53 It's like I- that scares me. Um, you know, it's, I think I admire that they're able to do that but [laughs] I wouldn't be able to do it personally. Um, I need like, we all, all of us need an editor. 46:04 Um, and it's not just like editing commas out of your draft. It's directionally, it's, you know, talking through sourcing, it's things like that. 46:14 Um, when things get really hairy you need a team around you to kind of say, "Okay, um, you know, how do we handle this?" So yeah, that's, um, that's what we do. 46:24 I don't know, it's not massively different but it's, we were in a unique kind of situation. Not too much to add there. 46:31 But I, you know, I would say back in, a- again, going back to the days of, of Gawker and stuff, like I was a night editor at like the peak of its popularity where like each, uh, post would get like 500,000 views which is like, man, woo, different days. 46:49 Uh, and I was just allowed to write in the CMS and post directly to the internet, uh, which is insane. I was 20- You're too wild for that... I was 20, I was 24. I knew no better. Uh- [laughs]... 47:00 yeah, and, and it was bad. That's bad. [laughs] Don't do that. It was a disservice to me. It was like not great to the readers. I learned a lot. 47:09 I learned how to be a better writer but also like, you know, we need these structures and, and that's something I love is like getting to work with great editors and, and that's like extremely important. 47:19 Defector, uh, has great editors on staff. Um, and like, yeah, uh, it's, it's, we're, we're stronger together with more ideas. And I know a lot of the great Substacks have editors. 47:33 You know, the, the, the idea of this person in the void. Although we definitely know the ones that don't have editors. 47:38 It's very apparent, and that doesn't mean they're not successful, it's just this is straight off the dome. [laughs] I, I have no say in editorial decisions so I, I can't really speak to it directly. 47:50 But I will say one part of this that is sort of the flip side of, of what you're saying, Frances, is if we get sued, we get sued. Like, it's just us getting sued. 48:00 Like it's not like there's some, you know, like big legal apparatus to save you from that. And I was talking recently to, like... 48:09 I, I got a bill from our First Amendment lawyer for $10,000 and I was like, "What the fuck?" And then I was like, "What, what was this article topic?" 48:16 And they told me the article and I'm trying to keep a straight face 'cause, again, I don't have say in editorial, um, decisions but I was like, "Oh wow, okay. We spent $10,000 on that." 48:26 And uh, I subsequently heard the, the, the staff writer talk about it and just like 48:32 it was a really miserable editing and reporting experience because he was like, "These are litigious people who might come after us, and we wanna be extra super-duper careful." 48:43 And actually are we more likely to, uh, cut stuff that they're asking for than if we were under a corporate structure where like that's not my money, it's not my problem? S- the, the story is all it is. 48:59 And so I don't know that I... 49:01 I'm not, uh, trying to make a value judgment either way and it's just, you know, another dimension of being a, a writer-owner is you, you really do have to care about-Um, all those extra effects of, of what goes into your writing 49:14 Yeah, I would say, yeah, maybe that is a way that we do it differently. Or, like, not super differently, but, like, it's a- it's something that's in the back of our minds for sure. 49:20 It's like one crazy lawsuit could ruin us, you know, professionally and personally. [laughs] Um, and that wasn't the case at any of the big companies that we ever worked at. 49:30 You know, it's like, like I said, we pay for a lawyer because we need one. Um, and she's been very kind with her time, but they're not cheap. Um, so yeah, we don't shy away or pull punches, but, um, it's definitely... 49:44 It's, it's in the back of our minds for sure that that's the case. Yeah. Just adding on there, it's like we love working with freelancers, and they're great. 49:54 And we indemnify them, so [laughs] that's a, a whole other thing is, like, you know, maybe they wanna push the envelope, but the person who gets sued is, like, us and our business. 50:03 And when I was a freelancer and when I was a staffer at bigger places, like, I didn't care. Mm-hmm. You know? 50:08 I wasn't doing bad-ass shit, but, like, you know, it would be like, all right, if th- they get sued, then they get sued. Not me. Not anymore. Yeah. 50:16 And for the places that don't indemnify, that's why we need [laughs] a legal aid fund for freelancers, which is the reason we're all here. 50:23 Um, yeah, I mean, there's really no paying, like, a $10,000 legal bill or sending a $500 email and being like, "Oh, that was, that was... I, I could've figured that out on Google." [laughs] Mm-hmm. Um, but I... 50:37 Max, you said something about, like, you know, 10,000 flowers blooming. 50:40 Basically, like, if the messaging of worker-owned media collectives is successful, if you are able to lend your expertise to other people and they're successful, you... 50:51 It's not like you're eating into your own market share, but the novelty of subscribing just because of the model is a little bit less compelling. 51:00 Um, and one thing that we've talked about a lot on the podcast is, like, these cycles of, like, bundling and unbundling. 51:07 I think the solo operator Substacks and media collectives, obviously not quite the same, but of smaller teams are a part of this unbundling period. At a certain point, like, the rebundling happens. 51:22 Maybe it happens with, you know, acquisitions or joining forces or, you know, taking advantage of economies of scale by saying, like, "Well, let's all join in the same ad network," or something. 51:33 But, um, I'm just curious, like, how you sort of resolve that tension that like, okay, realistically, like, if somebody without the inertia of mass quitting a site like Deadspin wants to spin up a worker-owned media collective tomorrow, and they wanna cover sports, 51:51 it's a factor that Defector already exists, and they would not be able to just run the same playbook. And of course, that's always the case. 52:02 But is it particularly the case when you are leading, like, with your business model? Yeah, I mean, it, it, it... The subscription fatigue has been a phrase that people have talked about for several years now. 52:15 You know, they're often talking about, like, the Netflixes of the world, and I've... For a while, my answer was like, "Well, we're not trying to add a million subscribers." Mm-hmm. 52:22 "Like, we're just trying to convince the next thousand people to give us money, and there should be plenty of, of, of market to, to g- uh, go and chase." I, I... As the years go by, I, I do 52:34 feel that myself of, like, the number of Substacks that I pay for out of pocket, some of which I, I never read, and I'm just supporting the people. 52:43 And I, I do think that is a real tension, I think, but thankfully we're just not... I just don't think we're approaching that point because, I mean, I talk to, like I said, I- 52:57 most worker-owned publications, let's call it even independent-owned publications, do end up emailing me and asking for advice, uh, at some point, and when they actually launch, it's, it's a joy. 53:11 It's d- Hellgate launching, 404. We actually didn't talk before you guys launched, but we talked, like, the week after you guys launched. We could've talked before. [laughs] Yeah. 53:18 Uh, uh, Minnesota Racket, uh, uh, The Appeal relaunched. Uh, I... There's a, a good handful here that it, it's, it's such a joy when that happens. There are... 53:29 I have a conversation every month that doesn't lead to anything. I've had dozens of conversations with people who think about it and, and don't chase it. 53:36 And so, you know, if half of those people start chasing it, I might sort of, you know, have a more better mental framework for the exact question you're asking, Daisy. 53:46 But for now, I'm sort of like, we're just, I don't think we're approaching that place yet in independent media. Yeah, I mean, for us, because we are local, and I think we're maybe tackling a different... 53:57 E- Even though, you know, I think spiritually we're more Village Voice than, um, you know, Star-Ledger, um, we are filling a, a, a gap in local news. 54:09 And I honestly, there are other places that are launching, uh, like The 51st in DC. Obviously, Racket in Minneapolis already exists. They rock. Um, a bunch, a few other places are beginning. 54:22 I think we're beginning to coalesce around, like, kinda common practices and, and good ideas for how to make, uh, scalable, sustainable local newsrooms, um, that to this point are being extremely ignored by the people with a lot of money, who are like, "We need to get local news revitalized. 54:41 Like, this is the, the story of our time." 54:43 And every time we, we meet with these people, and we're like, "Listen, if you start small and build a real sustainable subscriber base, like, you know, you don't have to go crazy. Start with four reporters. 54:53 Start with a newsletter. Slowly build up. Get more and more revenue. 54:57 Grow sustainably," as opposed to just starting with, like, a $10 million endowment, turning around a few years later and being like, "Hey, where'd that money go? Oh, I guess this doesn't work." 55:06 Um, you can actually create something that organically, like, fits the market that you're in. And I don't think it's just that we're in New York why it's working. 55:17 I think this could work-Not really in a Philly obviously, but like even smaller cities, um, 'cause people care and they want local news, and they understand the crisis, and they feel pride when these places grow. 55:30 So as opposed to these like national, uh, news outlets, which are awesome and rock and, you know, cover specific topics, I think this is, you know, a scalable model that, um, if it had a little juice behind it, if, you know, there was like, "We wanna write a starter pack. 55:45 We wanna be like, 'Here's what you should do, and here's what we figured out.'" And oh, cool, this like foundation gave you 100K to do it, and like that's all you're getting. I think that could work. 55:58 [laughs] I'm, I'm like not... I don't feel like that's too crazy. Um, but, but so far every time we meet with people who like study this and, and are really committed to building local news, they are just like mystified. 56:10 They're like, "What do you mean? What? Worker-owned? Like, I don't get it." So, uh, you know, I, I think there's a huge market for this type of local news. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's about, um, knowing, 56:27 I think maybe, and correct me if I'm wrong, but it's kinda what you're saying, Max, is like knowing the niche of people that you can best serve. 56:34 Um, there are a billion tech websites out there, and none of them are doing it the same way that we're doing it, but they're all doing it their own way too. So, 56:43 um, I think as long as that's kind of the, the mindset you go into it with is like, "I'm gonna be different than both where I came from and also everyone that's around me, um, in a way that people want," um, I think is a, a pretty safe way to kind of keep yourself from, um, duplicating or being duplicated. 57:02 Um, and yeah, the subscriber, the subscription fatigue thing is, is real and it's like a concern, but it's also, it's like, it's like Jasper said, it's not a concern right now. 57:10 Um, and no one really knows how it's gonna shake out. Like, this is all kind of new. Like, we're all kinda learning, so who knows what it's gonna look like in five years. Maybe it is like bundling and re-bundling. 57:20 Um, but right now it's not a huge concern. And I love when people hit us up and are like, "Can you hop on the phone?" Like, paying that forward is fantastic. It's my favorite thing. 57:30 Um, and you know, some of it actually happens and some of it doesn't. You know, it's, it's great when it does happen, but, um, you know, for whatever reason, if it doesn't, that was the best choice for them. 57:41 It's hard to do one of these. [laughs] It's not like, um, it's not just like starting a medium. It's, it's a lot more complicated than that. 57:49 So, um, I respect it completely when people are like, "Actually, that's not, um, for us right now." But when people actually do launch, I'm not like, "Oh, shit. Here comes another one." 57:58 Um, I'm like, "Yeah, that's awesome. Like, they're doing something totally different than us, um, and that's fantastic for them. And that's fantastic for their readers." You know, usually they're filling some kind of... 58:07 It's like Hearing Things just launched, and that's an old- Yeah... that's like old Pitchfork, um, I shouldn't say old Pitchfork. 58:11 [laughs] That's, um, former Pitchfork, uh, journalists, and it's giving something different than Pitchfork. It's not new Pitchfork. It's giving something different. Um, and it's fantastic. 58:23 So I think that's kind of, that's what works so far. Um, but who knows, you know? It's, it's very nascent, I guess. Yeah. Shout out Aftermath as well. Yeah, Aftermath. Which is doing similar stuff. Aftermath. Who else? 58:38 Uh- We just did 'em a list. Yeah. Hearing- [laughs]... Hearing, Hearing Things is like super cool. Thanks. Yeah. You know, Jasper got a million of these emails, but it's always great to like- [laughs]... 58:46 get an email being like, "We have an idea," and like you talk with somebody and then they're like, "Good luck." And then a few months later it's like, "We've launched," and that's- I love that... that's great. Yeah. 58:54 Yeah. Yeah. So, um, Sequencer is the new pop science, uh, magazine. Uh, Maximum Funk, the podcast network, um, relaunched as a worker ownership, uh, under worker ownership. Um, there's a tabletop game spot that I- 59:10 Rascal Dot News. Yes. Rascal Dot News. Um, so yeah, there's a, there's a nice little community building. We all sort of know each other, and yeah, it's... 59:17 I, I don't wanna say it's blind leading the blind, because oftentimes I am at the front of the line of the blind leading the blind. 59:22 But, you know, we're all doing our best and, and you know, I, I learn so much from, um, Before Ford and Hellgate as well. Um, like I learn from all those, um, ad guys that you guys work with. 59:33 [laughs] So it's like you, or there's good cross-pollination. Um, one more question, and then we'll pass around for some Q&A for a little bit. 59:42 Uh, Jasper, you've just put out recently the fourth annual report that's like very... I don't know if it's 10,000 words, but maybe close to it. Um, so thorough, breaking down numbers, et cetera. 59:53 And I read that, um, when you put out the first one, it was something you were making internally anyways, and then there was some debate about should we put this out, should we not? 1:00:02 Obviously you put it out, and you've kept putting it out. Um, what... I'm, I'm curious like why you wouldn't have put it out, and if there was any, if there was any regret internally even? Yeah. So I originally... 1:00:15 So we don't have any outside shareholders, so we don't have like a, a structure of like quarterly meetings that, you know, we're like doing the summary of the last three quarters. [laughs] So yeah. 1:00:25 Again, I come from a very corporate background, so it's just not funny to me that we don't have any readout, like accountability moments. 1:00:31 And I was like, "Well, look, I'm accountable to all my co-owners here, so I'm just gonna start writing this thing about our business." 1:00:37 And everyone, you know, found it to be very legible and was like, "Oh, well, should we just publish this?" 1:00:42 And there were people who were like, "That's, there's a lot of stuff in here that's not other people's business necessarily." And I mean, the, the truth is they just got outvoted. 1:00:51 It was just like, all right, the, the bulk of people want to publish this, so we're just gonna go ahead and publish it. And we got a really good, a good, a reaction, uh, on it. 1:00:59 Um, you know, I, I think it drives loyalty with subscribers. It, it does drive some number of, of new subscribers. Um, probably not really anymore, but you know, loyalty is important. 1:01:09 You know, it drives our own earned media PR cycles. Um, and I do, I do think it keeps us accountable, like what numbers show up there. Like I, I... 1:01:17 going through the year, it's like, all right, this is a thing that I'm gonna have to write about. Um, and so, uh, like how, what, am I gonna be able to defend that? 1:01:25 Um-Um, I don't know that there's really any, uh, regret except that I, uh, like, we publish it every October, November, and then some point in mid-August I wake up and I'm like, "Oh, shit, I gotta start-" Yeah. "... 1:01:38 blanking that out again." Uh, but, but honestly, the, the day we publish it is one of the best days of the year for, for our business side. 1:01:46 Just, you know, the sort of well wishes we get, the good, um, ideas that people send us. Yeah, there... We get plenty of bad ideas, so we just reply and say, "Thank you so much for sharing it," and then hit delete. 1:01:57 But, you know, we, we do genuinely get good ideas and get good connections, and I'm out chasing a couple of things that were mentioned, was sort of mentioned offhand, and people were like, "Oh, do you want help with that?" 1:02:06 I was like, "Yeah, absolutely." Uh, so, uh, it, it, it was a... It's, it was valuable and, you know, while I'm still working at Defector, I can basically promise we'll keep doing it. 1:02:16 Well, we have some time to take questions from the audience, and we'll pass the mic so that we can hopefully capture this on the recording as well, and Dave will bring the mic to you. 1:02:25 So if you have a question, raise your hand. Hi. I was wondering about, um... 1:02:31 You were talking earlier about sort of cutting into the market share, the, like, idea of 1,000 flowers blooming, worker-owned media, journalism outlets becoming really common, and I was wondering what you thought of that in relation to the idea of, 1:02:50 if I, I have to say it, I guess, content creators. 1:02:54 Like, y- you were saying the example, Jasper, of, like, another independently-owned, worker-owned sports blog competing with Defector, but how would you view that in relation to, say, Jomboy or Sam 404, like Marcus Brownlee, same idea. 1:03:11 Like, how would you view that? Um, it's an interesting question. I don't have a great answer as far as, like, competitors go. I would say w- we have... 1:03:23 Without talking about anybody's business, we have been approached by people who have sort of upstart Substacks, and they're like, "Would you acquire me?" 1:03:31 And it's basically just, like, adding a staff writer and adding, you know, whatever subscriber list they have. 1:03:37 And so we sort of have a framework for talking about that, and whether we could, um, you know, bundle in by acquiring, um, a, a, a different thing that's, uh... But, but you know, that's not necessarily, uh, competitive. 1:03:51 We, we've done the thing where we, like, look at their Substack list and compare it to our own list, and try to figure out how much overlap there is, and, uh, whether it would be worthwhile 'cause we're getting actual additive subscribers. 1:04:06 That is just so case by case. 1:04:07 We have seen one where it's like, "Oh, we're actually not adding anything because it's just our subscribers pay for you also," which is, you know, good that they're not, you know, like, using them as replacements, but, like, we're not getting a ton out of that. 1:04:19 So, sorry, that was all a long way of not directly answering your question. I don't have a good answer for that. 1:04:24 I think it would be cool if we actually saw that sort of, um, uh, solidarity of, of content creators coming out with their, their own thing. And of course, the way people consume sports is so different. 1:04:34 It is something we're gonna have to reckon with eventually. Yeah, I think we're just kinda doing different things, I guess, is the way I see it. It's like, you know, we're doing 1:04:42 journalism and they're doing content creation. It's like it's not really, it's not really a competition in that way. 1:04:48 Um, and you know, it's like we, we would write about, we have written about Marcus Brownlee, and, like, it's all fair game if they're gonna, um, be content creators and do that full time. Um, and I think if... 1:05:00 I think they would not enjoy it if they came onto 404. [laughs] It would be a very different, um, experience for them probably. 1:05:06 So yeah, but it is, it's interesting that these are kind of two industries that are kinda growing up together. Yeah. Uh, New York Nico does his own thing- [laughs]... and it's cool. Uh, and that's different. 1:05:20 I don't know. 1:05:20 I have yet to see, like, cool content creators who are talking about the stuff that we're talking about, and that's probably because the idea of content creators is, like, as much of an expansion as possible, as many eyeballs as possible, and we are very specific to, like, "Listen, it's cool if you wanna read us outside of New York. 1:05:35 You probably are not getting a lot of information you want." Uh, so but, but if there was some local, uh, content creators that were doing cool, interesting stuff, I mean, there's a great content creator that does... 1:05:47 talks about the, uh, history of public housing, and rent regulations, and stuff like that. 1:05:50 That's awe- You know, we actually reached out and we were like, "Hey, we should do something together," and they hit us with a bill and, uh- [laughs]... that was kind of the end of the conversation. 1:05:59 In fact, no, we were, like, trying to interview them, and they hit us with a bill. And so I think that's 1:06:04 a, a very different vibe than what we're going for, and maybe content creators need to, you know, it needs to be a, a more mature f- field for people to kinda understand that, like, you should show up and be interviewed. 1:06:18 But until then, that's fine. Anybody else? So as a writer, I'm, I'm increasingly, um, concerned about the things that I write for the internet vanishing forever and, um, and about AI. 1:06:34 I wonder if you guys could talk about conversations you've had about print and how much print, uh, plays into, you know, maybe... I'm sure you guys have talked about it and decided that it's not worth it. 1:06:44 You can't make any money or whatever. But as a writer, I, I, I look for places that will publish my work [laughs] in print so that it might actually survive. You know? 1:06:53 Uh, it, it pops up all the time in, in internal conversations. Like, what if we did a, a quarterly magazine? And in fact, lots of r- readers always write in and ask us if we would. 1:07:03 I'm sort of waiting for somebody else to figure out this infrastructure, quite frankly. 1:07:07 I mean, Hellgate did, did a, a really nice, um, you know, voter guide and I'm like, "Oh, okay, well, at, at least I know they know somebody who could do this." 1:07:16 But it's just, it's never, like, the ROI never appears to be there on time or money. 1:07:21 But, um, I think all of us who work in media do have some reverence for the printed page in a way that I do hope eventually we can have that as a nice to have. 1:07:30 Yeah, and I think owning-The website [chuckles] takes away a lot of that fear of like, is this gonna disappear? 1:07:37 I think we've all kind of-- We've seen it happen where, um, you know, these bigger outlets will just totally wipe their slates clean and delete articles in mass, which is so crazy, [chuckles] um, and painful to watch. 1:07:53 Um, so yeah, we, we were already coming from this mindset of like, we need to be preserving everything we do, um, until it's under our control. And now that it is under our control, it's less of that anxiety. 1:08:02 But, you know, it's like it's something could happen in, you know, 20 years and what happens to 404? It's like, where does that go? Um, you know, link rot's real. So 1:08:14 yeah, I think that at least just like having it under our roof helps. Um, I don't know. I'd love to do a zine someday, but I think that's a different thing than like just the daily work. 1:08:26 You know, I mean, we-- I, I also-- I will tell you, we have been approached by not the people who own the archives, but the people who have contributed to the archives and love the archives very much, of publications that are in limbo. 1:08:38 They've asked us what it would-- whether we would be willing to take on the cost of hosting their archives if they were in some way able to acquire it. 1:08:47 And I think that is just piggybacking on what Sam said, of just like there is a little bit more faith that like 1:08:53 we're not gonna just be acquired by private equity and get scrapped, um, after, you know, they do not-- they're done with their AI-ification of our work. So, um, it's not something that keeps me up at night. Yeah. 1:09:06 Uh, that being said, I haven't, you know, I should know. I don't know where our articles live. I don't know our servers. Like, you know, something catastrophic could happen tomorrow, and maybe it's all gone. 1:09:17 We've gotta use the Internet Archive to try to find it. I should be more on top of that. But I, I don't know. I, I loved our like little sojourn into print. It ultimately did not cost a ton of money. 1:09:27 People do this all the time. Um, you know, it's sad that the New York Post has a monopoly on being cheap to read on the subway. It has a lot to do with, uh, how people view the world. 1:09:39 I think like losing AM New York is back, but losing the free newspapers, uh, and stuff that people could read every day, that was like, you know, pretty straightforward journalism. 1:09:48 Get-getting you to know stuff that was going on. Especially like, you know, as a reporter, I would talk to people where they get their news and be like, "Oh, the free newspaper they give me on the way to the subway." 1:09:58 Like, that's... Oh. And I think there's still a large community. Like, we still don't have Wi-Fi down under. [chuckles] So like, people want this stuff. 1:10:06 So, you know, I think that would be like a fun and worthwhile thing. 1:10:09 There was a moment when they were trying to figure out this tax credit, where instead of, um, accidentally, uh, forgetting to include nonprofits, they also put in that everything had to be print, uh, which we think has been obviated. 1:10:23 But we were like, "Okay." We started gaming out like how much it would cost for us to do a like bi-weekly print edition that would be like pretty low, low lift. And it wasn't, it wasn't a killer. 1:10:33 Um, what would be a killer is just like bringing somebody on board to like, uh, do layout and then distro. Um, but I'm excited to see what like The Onion does with the return to print. I think that's gonna be fun. 1:10:45 I think people, you know, like vinyl. People like objects, and local news can really kinda win on a, you know... The L.A. Times when they were briefly flirting with being a good, you know, uh... 1:10:55 They still do good journalism, and the journalists are great. 1:10:57 But when they were flirting with like doing cool new projects, like started doing zines and like small, uh, print features about like, you know, um, Chicano history and stuff like that. 1:11:08 And like you could buy a special edition. It was awesome and sick. Um, and you know, obviously like, uh, The New York Times has done that similarly, but, uh, there's a space for it. It's not expensive. 1:11:19 It's just time-consuming. Yeah. So, uh, you're all worker-owned media outlets, right? 1:11:26 Have you ever thought about expanding ownership to readers, kind of like how food co-ops have, uh, consumers that are owners or like REI? So I have been involved in, uh... 1:11:40 I, I, I've dabbled in the worker cooperative space and, and I think that is a common conversation about, uh, what they call platform collectivism, platform cooperatism. 1:11:52 Um, I think the answer for me is just that, uh, that is just another legal beast that I am not willing to, to consider taking on. But I think there's always interesting research in, you know, academics in that space. 1:12:07 If somebody came to me and said, "Hey, we wanna do a pilot, and this is the legal framework that would sit in," I would, I would love to consider that. 1:12:14 Yeah, I wouldn't be opposed to being like the Green Bay Packers, but, uh... Or at least giving them like a seat at the table. Uh, maybe not ownership, maybe like... I don't know. But they have the comment section. 1:12:24 Uh, yeah, I, I don't know. I, I'd like to see, along with Jasper, like actually like how this would work. Um, but I'm not opposed. Yeah, I think the closest thing we have 1:12:38 anywhere near that, and we're nowhere near that, we're still figuring out how to do this the normal way, [chuckles] 1:12:44 but we have a tier called Superfans, and they pay, it's $1,000 a year, and part of that is you get to sit in on like meetings quarterly. 1:12:52 But we're so swamped that it has not been quarterly on the dot, but we're gonna do one soon. Um, we've done a couple already. 1:12:57 But you can come to this meeting, and it's not recorded, and it's like, it's just you and like the people who are in that tier and us, and you can ask us questions. You can kind of give us suggestions. 1:13:06 You can say, you know, "I like this. I don't like that. I don't like it when you guys do this. I would like to help you g-guys do that." Um, that's not like co-ownership at all. 1:13:13 It's totally different than what you're talking about. 1:13:15 But like, it is nice to have, you know, that, that group that we know is paying attention and is like actually invested in what we're doing, um, to give us that kind of feedback in real time and not just like when they feel like throwing an email our way. 1:13:32 Um, but yeah, that's a really interesting question. That would be an interesting kind of thought experiment, how we would do that. 1:13:39 If anyone's listening and has existing research on this, [chuckles] feel free to send it in to the podcast- Yes... and we'll distribute it or address it on a future episode. But, um, thank you so much for coming. 1:13:49 We're gonna wrap up now. If you wanna stick around and talk or, um, ask questions to the panelists, that's fine too. 1:13:56 And thanks again for supporting the National Writers Union's news service organization, and I think this was a very, uh, strong argument in a lot of ways for, for why we're doing this. So thank you. 1:14:10 [audience clapping] [rock music] Honey. It tastes just like it costs. 1:14:22 [rock music] Honey
