Transcript 0:00 [rock music] Mm, honey. It tastes just like it costs. All right. Back from Marfa. Mm-hmm. Back from the southwest. 0:15 Back from the Airbnb where my Wi-Fi went wrong. Back releasing the podcast, as usual, on a Wednesday. Mm-hmm. Welcome to Tasteland. Welcome to Tasteland. 0:28 Um, yeah, the Wi-Fi thing hopefully won't give me lingering trust issues, or either of us. Yeah. But I think we showed a lot of, um, calm under stress and flexibility. Mm-hmm. A lot of, uh, 0:45 agility, as they say in the startup world, um- Agility... ag- agile scr- agile scrum. Um- Nope, that's not what scrum means. [laughs] Anyways, uh- Anyways... we do have a guest today, and they are waiting in the wings. 1:00 Mm-hmm. Who are we talking to today, Daisy? We're talking to Bibi Praval, and I had a call with her. She works for a company called Main. Um, they develop scents and flavors. No relation to the state? 1:12 No, and it's spelled differently. Um, but they, they work with things, like, in the lab, on a molecular level, um, but they also help celebrities and larger brands develop perfumes. 1:26 And, um, I talked to her a few months ago for a different project Gary's working on, but I thought she would make an amazing podcast guest, so I asked her to come on. I am so excited to talk to her. Let's let her in. Hi. 1:41 Hello. Hi. So, so excited to have you here. Um, as you know, I know a little bit about fragrance. Francis really knows nothing, so he's excited to be- I know quite a little... a sponge. So I guess 1:59 let's start off with some questions about your background, if that's okay. Sure. Francis, do you wanna jump in? Yeah. So okay, so I, I was looking for information on you, Bibi. 2:10 [laughs] Not a lot out there, but I did find your LinkedIn. Um, and let's, so let's start. Like, you went to school to get a degree in cosmetics and fragrance marketing from FIT 20 years ago. I did. Yes. 2:24 So- Which was my second degree. Yes. After 10 years, wh- actually, why did you go back? What brought you into the fragrance? Why did you wanna go in and do that? So I actually didn't know that these jobs existed. Mm. 2:37 I sort of didn't realize that you could work in fragrance. Um, I don't know where I thought it came from, but you know, I had always loved it, and after college the first time, um, I had come back to New York, and I was 2:53 at my parents' house, and I remember I was just sort of online looking around for stuff, and I saw something called Fragrance Fun Day- [laughs]... online. And I was like, I was as- astounded. 3:03 And I went to it, and it was at Lincoln Center, and it was this huge tent filled with fragrance fanatics. And it was like I had found my mecca. Mm. 3:13 Um, there were quizzes, there were prizes, there was all this stuff you could do. 3:20 Um, and I remember I had won a prize of a little Michael Jordan cologne, um, and I had never been prouder of anything in my entire life for, like, identifying the smells of something. Mm. I was so thrilled. 3:32 Um, but that was so... And that was, um, run by the Fragrance Foundation, and it was the first time I'd ever heard of them. So 3:42 fast-forward three jobs, and on Monster there was an ad for a job at the Fragrance Foundation. It was, um, the division was called the Sense of Smell Institute- Mm... 3:53 and it was a sort, it was a fundraising event planning sort of job, which is what I had been previously doing. And I was like, "Okay, this is my in." 4:02 Um, and while I was there, I decided that I really wanted to smell more. Um, so I went back to school, 'cause it's a hard industry to get into if you don't know someone or if you don't- Mm-hmm... 4:13 sort of take the school route. Yeah. I love that. I love [laughs] I, I love what you said, that you decided you wanted to smell more. 4:20 [laughs] Um, so I was in the part, uh, the more of the sc- the scientific branch- Mm... where we were giving money to scientists who did olfactive research- Mm... 4:29 which was great and fascinating, and I helped organize something called, um, Sense of Smell Day at public schools- Mm... where kids could learn about their sense of smell, which was really interesting. 4:39 Um, but meanwhile, the Fragrance Foundation organizes the FiFi Awards, which are called the Fragrance Foundation Awards now, um, which are kind of like the Academy Awards of fragrance. 4:50 Um, so they needed all hands on, so I got to participate a little bit in that, but it was just a teaser. Yeah. So that's when I was like, "I need to smell more." 4:59 Wait, o- one thing you said about, um, like, teaching, what, what... Something about, like, the, the... Teaching kids, like, how to smell and stuff like that. 5:07 So I, you know, I, I grew up, like, on a small farm, rural area. I think you, you're from New York, and I imagine this was in New York, right? So I... 5:13 That made me think of, like, you know, when you're a kid out in rural California, they tell you that, "Oh, you know, like, kids in big cities like New York, like, they don't know where milk comes from." 5:23 [laughs] Um, so I immediately thought of that. Uh, uh, I guess [laughs] my question there is, like, what... Like, I don't know, what are, what are you teaching? I mean, just wanna talk about that for a second. 5:31 What are you teaching kids about how to smell, like, back then in those things, in those days? Well, it's, it's sort of, um, people don't really realize that taste and smell are so- Mm... closely linked. Yeah. 5:41 Um, there's that, I don't know if you've ever done it, the jelly bean test. Have you ever tried this? Mm. I, I, I, probably, like, 25 years ago, I'm sure. [laughs] Is this similar to the onion and apple test? 5:53 Probably, where you- Okay... I mean, if you hold your nose and you have two jelly beans that are the same color, one could be cinnamon and one could be cherry- Mm-hmm... you won't be able to tell with your nose pi-... 6:04 pinched which one's which- Mm-hmm... because all the receptors, all you're getting is sweet- Yeah... on your tongue. Okay. 6:09 So for kids to learn that, it's pretty interesting, and it's like a fun little science experiment. Um, and then they just love smelling things. I- it's... And it's an industry that is sort of secretive. Mm-hmm. 6:23 Um, it's not advertised wild- widely, widely. So, you know, letting kids know when they're young that this is a job is always great. Yeah. 6:34 And we're, my company's doing a lot of work sort of now to try and get out into actual universities to do it at a, a higher level now. Nice. Why is it historically so secretive as an industry? 6:45 Um, because the formulas, the perfumer formulas were considered gold. Mm. I mean, um, in the early earliest days of fragrance, if someone stole another perfumer's formula, like- Hmm... it was the worst crime possible. 7:02 Hmm. Um, it was the f- formula, the fragrance that belonged to the person who that perfumer made it for, for life pretty much. Um- Oh, like bes- so bespoke? Yes. Yeah. Like so bespoke, and, and they were just, you know, 7:20 sort of kept in safes, and it was, there was a lot of secrecy around it. Hmm. What historical era are we talking about with this? Um, 7:31 so I'm thinking this, fragrance apparently, this is what I've learned, came from glove makers- Mm-hmm... in Europe, and they used to, um, tan the leather with urine. Hmm. And it smelled terrible- [laughs]... 7:46 as you can imagine. So they would make these little blends of naturals to cover the smell of the urine on the gloves. Um, and that was sort of the birth of these little formulas. Mm-hmm. 7:58 And then, so the glove makers and the perfumers were sort of linked. Um, and then each person of money would have their own sort of personal perfumer. I go to this person, you go to that person. 8:13 Um, and at the time they were only working with naturals, with- Mm-hmm... aromatic notes and citruses, and that's where eau de colognes came from, which were the first fragrances sort of on the market. 8:26 And I guess the first eau de cologne, we say maybe it's 4711, which is still sold today. I can tell you when that launched. Oh, wow. Hold on one second. 8:36 Um, it's actually having a little bit of a comeback because of TikTok, which is kind of interesting. Oh, we'll get- Oh, yeah... we're gonna get into TikTok. 8:43 [laughs] So you mentioned getting over a cold, and as you were talking about the connection between taste and smell, I was remembering, um, you know, the first time I got COVID, I really, really lost my sense of smell and taste, and I had a, you know, I was very afraid it wouldn't come back. 8:59 You know, not necessarily COVID, but really anything that affects your sense of smell. Like, do perfumers have, like, 9:08 holistic things that you do to try to prevent getting sick, or is it just sort of like, um, you know, it's part of the job and, like, being human, and if you're out of commission, you're out of commission? 9:22 Backtracking one second. 4711 came out in 1799. Okay. Um- Wow... so we did have one perfumer lose his sense of smell during COVID, and it was terrifying. Hmm. Um, he was scared. We were all s- super scared. And 9:40 I mean, I, every morning I got up during COVID and smelled every product in my shower just to make sure that I still had it. It was my number one fear- Yeah... because, I mean, I'd be done. Your necessary livelihood. 9:53 Yeah. [laughs] Your life. I don't have so many, so many marketable skills. Mm-hmm. Um- Oh, I doubt that... but yeah, we get sick, and, um, I don't think people do anything crazy to prevent it. 10:07 Um, we actually s- all sit pretty close to each other, so- Mm-hmm... it, you know, the illness travels. [laughs] Okay, wait. 10:14 So, so you, you got your degree, back then, going back to that, in cosmetics and fragrance marketing, and then the jobs you held, for 17 years you were a fragrance evaluator, right? So what... 10:23 I mean, this seems like two different things to me. I'm curious, like start with the marketing bit. 10:28 Like, was that, that was just your in to it, and then you- That's the only fragrance degree really you can get- Oh, okay... in New York. That's what it's called. Mm-hmm. 10:36 So you can either take the cosmetic route or the fragrance route in this degree, or sort of like your focus, what you're more interested in. Um, obviously I was interested in fragrance. 10:47 And there's one evaluation course, there's one perfumery course, um, and then you have like a, a formulation course for skincare and those- Hmm... sorts of things. Um, but that's sort of the closest you could get. 11:02 And then your last semester in the program, you get an internship, and I had mine with a fragrance house, and I was lucky that they hired me out of that internship to train- That's Symrise, right?... in evaluation. 11:13 At Symrise, yep. Yeah. Um, but still then I had to be trained on all the ingredients and how to smell properly and- Yeah... and all that stuff. So it was, it, still more learning as you go. I mean, and every day. Yeah. 11:26 That's kind of a, why the job's so fantastic, is like- But-... you actually keep going every day. Is it like a wine thing, like, uh, becoming a master sommelier? 11:35 It's, um, it is like a wine thing, but it's not like a wine thing. Um, did you see Somm? Did you see that doc- Uh, I have not, but I have, I have some friends who, who are somms, so I just hear about it from them. 11:47 They're very intense. Like, they... I watched it, and it's, it's a different, um, I don't know how to say, sort of like dynamic. Uh-huh. We're a lot m- more laid back [laughs] than- Well, that was... 12:00 Yeah, one of the things I just wanted to ask you about is, like, different industries attract different archetypes of people and, like, what is the archetypal person that ends up as a fragrance evaluator?I can actually speak more easily to the perfumers- Yeah... 12:16 because across the board, the majority of them are artists. Mm-hmm. In all sorts of art. Be it, like, you know, fancy, making fancy cocktails, or painting, or, um, woodworking. 12:32 Like, they all have these hidden talents, and you sort of find out that they're all very skilled in various art forms. Evaluation, evaluation is different. I wouldn't 12:44 say that there's anything across the board that links us. Hmm. Um, except that we love to smell things. 12:52 We're the people who, you know, whenever you go into a store, are instantaneously picking everything up and sniffing it. Mm-hmm. And usually you've been doing that since you were a little kid. Mm-hmm. 13:01 Um- Does it make being in the city and just walking through crowds too overstimulating? Um, there are certain fragrances that at this point in New York when I smell, I have to, like, make big loops- Make a berth... 13:17 to, to come around it because- Can we, can we name, can we name some of them? [laughs] I can't do it. [laughs] It's just not, it's just not nice. Okay. 13:22 But if you live in New York, you probably know which ones I'm talking about. Yeah. Yes. Just- I have one in my mind at least. Yeah. Um, when I was pregnant, my sense of smell, like, doubled. Uh-huh. 13:33 And I could smell a garbage truck three blocks away. Mm. Mm-hmm. It was insane. That was, that was rough. But normally the city, I mean, I'm kind of used to it. Yeah. It's fine. 13:43 My mom has an amazing sense of smell as well, and, um, you know, not necessarily channeled into perfume, but she could smell milk before it went bad-... we always said. And, um, I always wonder, like, what, 13:59 you know, fragrances of mine that she would like, because she, she'll comment. But I, when I started wearing Bowmakers by DS & Durga- Mm... 14:07 which is sort of like my signature, um, she really liked it, and she told me immediately that she liked it. So I ended up getting her the travel size. Um- That's nice... but then I, I found out- Do you feel-... 14:19 she was, like, rationing it. You know, I got her the smaller one 'cause I thought it'd be more convenient for her to carry around the roller, but then I found out she was rationing it, and that made me really upset. 14:28 So now I wanna just get her, like, the biggest bottle they have. And do you feel good about wearing the same fragrance as your mother? 14:35 Definitely, definitely, because I don't, I think she, she considers it, like, a special occasion thing. Mm-hmm. So, um, 14:43 there was a period of time where I was wearing, or I was using, like, the same shampoo Ben's, my husband's grandmother used to use, and I think that that was a little weird for him. 14:52 [laughs] Um, but I'm okay wearing the same fragrance as my mom because unfortunately we don't spend a ton of time together, and, um- But it's nice... it kind of smells different on every person. Absolutely. So. Yeah. 15:03 But there is a lot of gatekeeping around fragrance- Mm... that's been coming up where people won't tell you what they're wearing because they don't want you to take it. Mm-hmm. 15:11 They won't post it online, they'll just- It's so personal. Yep. Yeah, so I mean, speaking of gatekeeping, like, TikTok 15:18 obviously somebody who makes TikToks about fragrance, um, their whole value proposition to the audience to get their attention is that they're not gatekeeping, but then of course that person can secretly gatekeep- Right... 15:30 what they consider- Mm... their best or most personal stuff. But, um, in general, like, in this moment, there's 15:37 i- from my perspective, the least amount of secrecy and gatekeeping in the perfume market that there's ever been. 15:44 And, um, you know, the success of, like, Glossier's You, and I know they have a new scent coming out, I think just proves- Two... yeah, that this is really a mass market. So- Mm... what, how has TikTok changed the game? 16:00 [laughs] Yeah. Wow. TikTok really has piqued the interest of so many people who otherwise would not be into fragrance, I think. Mm-hmm. 16:10 Um, just because it's hit this much younger market, um, we've been seeing this influx of young boys, not young boys, but boys, young men, um, who have- Teens... teens, yes, um- Scentbros. 16:26 There was a New York Times piece about it, I think. Exactly. Yeah. Um, have this super elevated niche taste, and somehow the money to purchase the fragrances, and it's become a status thing with them- Mm... 16:39 which is mind-blowing to me, and amazing for the industry. Um- Just that, that it's, that it's these young, young kids, that it's, that these young men, like, what, what about it specifically? 16:51 Also just that it's, they're picking these particular fragrances. Oh. Mm-hmm. They're not just wearing, you know, Calvin Klein and Armani and, like, the bestselling Chanel. Mm. 17:01 They're wearing niche, teeny niche brands with, like, big heavy amber wood notes. Mm-hmm. Um, but these bottles are selling for, like, 300 to $400. Mm. 17:13 So they're saving up their money from the holidays, they're asking it for gifts. They're, it's pretty, it's, it's intense. Like, it's a commitment. Mm-hmm. Um, 17:23 I have not come across any of them walking around New York yet- Mm... but I'm sure I would be able to smell them- Yeah... 'cause, you know, teens are not light-handed when it comes to putting on fragrance. 17:36 [laughs] Francis, when you were growing up, did you know any, about anything other than, like, Axe body spray? Well, I, I didn't use that, no. I mean, I- Oh, excuse me. [laughs] Look, a body spray, no, I was using, uh, 17:48 I was just using, like, deodorant. No, I didn't think about perfume much at all myself until- Mm... probably, um, in, in college, and then my girlfriend had a perfume she always wear, wore. 17:58 Um, she do- she doesn't really wear it anymore. Um, she has some other ones. But then the first time I thought of fragrance for myself was when I moved to New York. 18:07 I worked at the Stumptown at the Ace Hotel on 29th and Broadway, and, um- Stumped. I know exactly what you're talking about... there was a Le Labo in the same building, or, like, two doors down, and-... 18:16 uh, one of the guys there would come... You know, if- when you work in the same like the same row and you're, you're all shop people, like, you just trade things, you know? He's not paying for the coffee. Mm-hmm. 18:26 He would bring us, uh, the little sample bottles of Le Labo. Mm-hmm. So I started... I forget which two I, I used. One was like the, 18:37 there was Another 29 or something like that was one of them, and then there's, um, there's a bergamot one. Yeah. Um, and those are the two I really liked. 18:45 But so I, I actually didn't buy my first fragrance, uh, until this- You bartered. That's nice... I d- yeah, I did. It was, and I had a little- I know. I love that story. That's a very hero story... adventure. 18:55 But this summer I did buy my first fragrance- Oh, did you?... uh, in Berlin. Mm-hmm. So it is, I don't know if it's MIN or M-I-N New York- Mm-hmm... uh, Chef's Table by them. Um, which was funny. 19:06 We were in, so we're in Berlin and there's this a, um, stationery store I really like. 19:11 Uh, and so we were there and bought a little notebook and, and w- we're leaving, and then there's this, um, fragrance store like one door down. And, and we go in, and I wasn't really intending to buy. 19:22 I think I have enough expensive vices that I like- Mm-hmm... to my clothes, et cetera. You know? 19:26 It's like I always say, like with records, I don't own any records 'cause I, it's just, I, you know, I spend, I spend m- enough money already. 19:32 Um, so I was like, "Well, these are cool, but, you know, not something I need to buy." 19:36 But, um, I did end up leaving with the 15 milliliter bottle of the Chef's Table, uh, because, you know, uh, the guy's like, "Well, what do you like?" I was like, "Oh, I'm not gonna- Chef's Table... 19:45 make it a- I don't think I've ever smelled that. I'm looking at- It's-... Fragrantica right now. We're gonna do a read out. Well, so it's, I can... It, the top is tomato leaf, bergamot, and basil. 19:53 The heart is Turkish rose, iris, and clary sage. And the base is tonka bean, ambergris, and musk. Sounds delicious. Wow. So it's very garden. It's very... Like, I, I do love a tomato too. 20:05 Um, I- But you don't smell like pizza. No. No, it's, it's- No, it's, the tomato leaf is very different than tomato. Oh, okay. [laughs] It's less the, less the kitchen, more the garden. Okay. Yeah, it's very green. 20:14 Mm-hmm. I love tomato leaf. We have a, the Le Labo, uh, Tomato candle- Mm-hmm... uh, was really my introduction to the tomato leaf scent. Um, but yeah, so that's the only fragrance I own. 20:26 I'm partial to the Malin+Goetz Tomato candle, which I worked on. I've been getting a- oh, I've been getting ads for that a lot. For the, we just came out with a refresher room spray. Yes. Yes. Okay. That makes sense. 20:36 Did you work on the rum one? Um, I, it, it existed before I came to this company. Oh, okay. But, yes, it is ours. I absolutely love that one. It's a good one, right? It's in our bathroom at the office, which is great. 20:48 Yeah. I was buying it as my bathroom soap, and then I had to implement austerity, similar to Francis- It is... because I spent too much money on other things. [laughs] Well, Bebe, what are you wearing today? 20:58 I'm not allowed to wear anything. Oh, that's right. That would... Mm. 'Cause I have to put stuff on my skin to smell it, and I- Yeah... 21:05 have to be able to smell what I'm working on, which is one of the sad parts of the job. But I do put something on every night when I leave. Mm-hmm. Like, something new that's on the market so I can learn it. 21:15 Oh, that's nice. Well, okay, what about, so w- going back to you saying you wanted to smell more, what was, what was the original smell? What was your gateway, your gateway fragrance? Oh, wow. Okay. 21:26 So my gate- you, this is crazy. My gateway fragrance was a gift from Santa. Mm. And it was a Charlie Go Lightly body mist- Mm. Mm... which you don't even know what Charlie is, I'm sure. 21:40 Um, Charlie is, was a classic fragrance in the s- late '70s, early '80s that was meant for the working woman- Mm-hmm... um, made by Revlon, and there's lots of flankers off. 21:52 There's like Charlie White, Charlie Black, Charlie da. Um, no one really wears Charlie anymore. And this was, um, an aerosol body mist, and I must have been seven or eight. 22:06 Um, why whomever purchased that thought this smell was appropriate for a seven or eight-year-old, I don't know. It was Santa. What were you thinking? Right. But Santa got it right. I could not get enough. 22:16 I covered myself in it, and that really sort of started everything. Then I got my hands on a white linen Estee Lauder solid perfume compact. Mm. And I remember my parents took me to a party. 22:32 It was the anniversary of the Brooklyn Bridge. 22:34 So we went down to this guy's apartment so we could watch the fireworks, and I couldn't stop putting that solid perfume on, to the point where he had to ask my parents to take me home because the apartment wasn't that big, and I was just filling it and filling it and filling it. 22:46 [laughs] And white linen is this like very aldehydic- Mm-hmm... huge floral fragrance, and we had to leave. Oh, my gosh. Um, yeah. I, I love the way you tell that story and, like, filling the room, filling the room. 22:56 Um, uh, as I was reading this, when I was, like, preparing for this last night, I was just, you know, looking up articles to read about fragrance culture, et cetera, and there's this one on Nylon. 23:06 I'll, I'll just read an excerpt from it. So the guy, this, uh, "I realized perfume could tell a story," Omans says. "It wasn't simply just something that smelled good. 23:15 It was something that could evoke a memory or nostalgia or sense of place. The purpose of perfume became a lot more complex and more of an expression of art rather than something that's superficial and for fashion." 23:25 Now he gets fragrance samples from Olfactory NYC and switches his perfumes every couple of months, using scent as a way to mark a time in his life. Revisiting them later would not be unlike reading a diary. 23:37 So you telling that story just reminded me of that. And, like, I don't know. I love what this guy is saying about, like, 23:44 just always switching it, and then so, you know, you, you walk past the person on the street and you get the whiff, and then just the Proustian moment, et cetera. Right? Like, I don't know. 23:52 That's, that's what it's all about, right? It's for, I really love that for vacations. Mm. 23:57 If you are traveling and you bring a particular fragrance with you, then you have that, and you smell it, and it takes you right back to that place- Mm-hmm... which I love. Um, I bring my Jack Rag with me. 24:07 I'm sort of doing that right now. Yeah. I'm in the city for the next two weeks, but I'm usually up in Westchester. We're pet sitting. 24:15 And I only brought in, um, you know, one of my Atelier Red Orange samples, 'cause I bought the, like, 70 sample pack-A couple years ago, and so I kind of do a similar thing. If I'm traveling, I just bring one of them. 24:29 Yeah. Um, so the one that I have with me is called La Fin Du Monde, and the first two notes that are listed on Fragrantica are gunpowder and popcorn. 24:39 [laughs] Um, it doesn't really smell like either of those things to me, but it's definitely a powdery scent. Um, and I- Some of those fragrances- Yeah... are amazing. I- that brand is very cool. Mm. 24:53 But I probably will run out by the end of this, like, little two-week visit, and so- Perfect... if I smell it again, I'll associate it with- Yep... just being in New York in October 2024. Mm-hmm. 25:07 So I want, I do wanna go back to the, the internet culture of, of fragrance now. And, you know, uh, for me, like, what I can't... I, I just keep thinking of Jeremy Fragrance. I don't know if both of you- Mm... 25:16 are familiar with Jeremy Fraga- He's, he's wild. Yes. [laughs] I just get his reels on my Instagram so much. He's going through a very intense phase right now. 25:23 Um, he's not specifically necessarily who we have to talk about, but I think, like- Is he still looking for a girlfriend, Francis? Uh, no. He... Well, he... That's the thing. There is a woman character now in his videos. 25:33 Okay. Um, and it's very odd. [laughs] She's filming, um, and he's, like, s- just dousing her feet, first dr- uh, uh, uh, it's bizarre. Um, but the... 25:42 my, my point is that, like, internet culture and fragrance, it seems to be all about the freaks. Like, and it's people really, like... 25:48 I was looking last night, and, like, some of these people, like, have, like, fragrance freak a- as their name or something like that. Mm. 25:52 But it, there's this culture of, like, um, uh, I, I don't know, just, like, very bold, kind of brash expressiveness. 26:01 And then, you know, you're talking about, like, it's the, the leather gloves and, like, the, the getting the urine smell off. I don't know. 26:06 It's like, to me, like, this wave of fragrance culture seems very freaky, and then it, like, calls back to that, you know, hundreds of years ago. 26:16 Um, but I think, too, it's like the other side of it, it's this very, like, class, class related thing, right? Mm-hmm. Like, a high class, and, like, refined, and it's about subtlety and, like, the subtlety of scent. 26:27 Um, and which I guess those are t- two sides of the same coin too, right? Like, Eyes Wide Shut style. Um, I don't necessarily know where I'm going with this as a question, but I think- [laughs]... is the culture of... 26:39 [laughs] I guess it's, is the culture of fragrance, like, why do you think the internet embraces it in such this freaky way? I don't know that it's that freaky. Yeah. I think Jeremy's pretty freaky. Well, not... Yeah. 26:50 Yeah. Jeremy is pretty freaky. Um, Jeremy's pretty freaky. I mean, he came to a Fragrance Foundation award and got up on the stage and did push-ups. Of- Mm.... course he did. Yes, he did. 27:02 I mean, he, he, he lo- Jeremy loves Jeremy. Um- Mm... I d- I don't feel bad about saying that, 'cause he would say that. That's his thing. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Um, 27:13 when you think about f- you know, like, the fragrance world online, it's not my favorite one to go to, 'cause there- Yeah... 27:20 are so many really smart and thoughtful, not only reviewers, but, um, just people talking about fragrance. There's a- Mm... woman named Professor Perfume who really sort of does her research and learns what she's saying. 27:34 And then there are tons of people who are just giving their opinion. Yeah. Um, 27:39 and that's when it's kind of crazy, when someone who has a great personality gives their personal opinion, and that triggers the sale of a fragrance. That's remarkable to me. Yeah. You know? 27:52 Like, that's just, that's sort of like just the popular girl's wearing it, so now it sells. Mm-hmm. Um, and that's very interesting. And that changes fragrance marketing completely. Yes. You know? Um, 28:09 a, an ad in a magazine can't do that. Mm-hmm. Um, a billboard can't do that. And also, you know, having the celebrity fronting the brand is changing. Like, who- Yeah... your celebrity is. 28:20 It's all, it's ve- it's really interesting. Well, so, I mean, like, the internet, you, the internet has no smell, right? 28:26 So I think that's what's interesting to me, too, about, about this, like, fragrance culture on the internet, where it's all just this storytelling and buying it- Right... 28:33 like, sight un- sight, sight unseen, scent unsmelled. Um, and it's, I don't know. But that's like fragrance is about story and about memory and about that, like, Proustian thing like we were saying. 28:43 So the first time that ever really happened, I think, and I could be wrong, but it was Mary J. Blige. Mm. And she was selling her fragrance on HSN or QVC. Yeah. 28:53 Um, and she went on and told her personal life story that is what she was inspired by to create this fragrance, and before she pretty much had finished talking, it had sold out. Wow. Wow. 29:05 So Home Shopping Network is sort of the precursor to what TikTok is doing for perfume now. Kind of, right? Yeah. I mean, people getting on there and just, and, and telling their stories. 29:15 And her story was so rich and so connecting with so many other people that s- you know, bottle unsmelled, they purchased it. And it was pretty, it was a big deal when it happened. Um, 29:27 and then we saw an influx of brands trying, but this was sort of pre-TikTok, pre-reviewers, um, sampling. You know- Mm... where we're, we're gonna send you three different samples based on a quiz online. 29:40 Um, wear them all, and then either you get a discount towards a full bottle of one of the things you liked, or, you know, one of those situations that you actually could sample it without having to go into a store. Yeah. 29:54 Mm. That was sort of the f- the precursor to just buying blindly. Mm-hmm. Um- I- Oh, go ahead, Daisy. Sorry. 30:02 No, I was just gonna say, I retweeted this meme the other day, and it was, you know, somebody on Twitter saying, "Do you like my perfume?" And then it was just, like, a picture of their wrist. 30:10 [laughs] Um, you know, just underscoring that there really is no way to share the way that you smell online. Um- But could, did you, could you smell that picture? I think I did, like, a self insert. Exactly. 30:22 I, you know, I was like, "Oh, shit smells like me." [laughs] Mm-hmm. Which, I mean, I think this-We, we wrote a piece actually about, um, skin scents. 30:34 And there's this interesting thing that happens with the way that skin scents are marketed, because it's like it's self-improvement, but it's not self-improvement. It's like it smells like you, but better. 30:46 And that was kind of the whole pitch of Glossier's first fragrance. Um- Whoever came up with that marketing is a genius. Genius. I mean genius. Every single fragrance you put on, the, the last ingredient is you. Mm-hmm. 31:02 You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Everything smells different on every person's skin. Mm. And the fact that they just said it and sold it is, like, I could bow down to them. Yeah. The smartest. Yeah. Well, we actually had... 31:16 Well, Francis. Francis is a better researcher than me. He's more thorough. I kind of just improvise. I don't know. I don't know. 31:22 But, um, you had written down, which I think is an amazing question, also coming off of our, our last episode, which was about magazines. Like, do you have any favorite, um, pre-TikTok marketing campaigns for perfumes? 31:36 Like the billboard or the ad that just is stuck in your brain, where it's like people will be talking about this campaign forever? It's Dior Sauvage Johnny Depp, isn't it? I mean, that, in a funny way. 31:48 I mean, back in the day, it's gotta be Egoiste. It was, um, an Egoiste ad- Mm... with these windows being opened. Mm. Have you ever seen it? No. It's... And they're just going, "Egoiste. Egoiste." 32:01 [laughs] It's, it's so good. [laughs] Uh. It's, it's so French, and it's- Mm-hmm... so good, and it will never leave me. Mm. Um, about, about- What does it, what does it... 32:10 I mean, I don't know the scent, so descr- what does it bring to mind? What's, like, the story? Uh, it's just sort of... I mean, Egoiste is a, it's a ma- it's a men's fragrance. Mm-hmm. 32:19 And it's, um, Chanel, and it's super high-quality, delicious, d- at this point, probably a little dated. Yeah. Mm. Um, but when it came out, it was, it was like everything fragrance was. 32:36 It was- Mm... you know, French, and fancy, and fun, and it sort of nailed it all. Yeah. Um, trying to think of other... Is it w- f- fragrance and Frenchness, um, is like- Mm. 32:50 So does that where, is that where the roots is? Or like, I feel like in my mind too- No... it's actually a little further east, right? So it's not, it's, it's not where the roots are at all. Yeah. 33:00 Actually, it's where, um, I think it's where the roots of high fashion- Yeah... were. And 33:08 for the people who could not afford the couture designs, they were placated with fragrance because- That's the roots of where fragrance marketing is. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. 33:19 Like, you know, you couldn't buy a, I don't know, a Dior dress, but you could buy a Dior fragrance. Mm-hmm. Which is funny, 'cause you were saying something about how it was like the whole world of the elite. 33:30 It's actually not the elite. It's like the step down. It's, it's the buying the socks. It's the lesser. Right. The bourgeois. Yep. It, it's the belt. Yeah. Yeah. Um... Her Hermes belt. 33:40 But I mean, they always talk about the spice trail- Mm... um, going through what is then called the Middle East. Um- Mm... and all these ingredients come from those locations. 33:54 So there i- you know, Asia is a huge location for the, the birthplace of fragrance and ingredients. Um, I'm not steeped with the, like- Yeah... the first origin. Yeah. But I mean, you had it... What do they say? 34:08 Like Cleopatra had these fragrances buried with her, and she would douse herself with jasmine oil every single day. Um, and I mean, in Morocco, it's filled with roses. Mm. And some of the best oils come from there. 34:25 So the ingredients come from everywhere. Um, the people putting them together- Yeah... into little formulas, you think primarily in France. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But I also could be wrong. 34:40 No, I think that's, that's my perception as well. Like the fu- fundamentals were assembled through trade and sometimes through, like, the violence of trade. Yes. 34:49 Um, but I associate the current market with Europe, although the buyers are not necessarily European. Um, like if you're talking about the bigger houses like LVMH, um, 35:04 and how well LVMH has done, LVMH has done so well because they started to adjust for the Chinese consumer, and the Japanese consumer, and what they're interested in. Um, and- We forget- Yeah... 35:20 we often forget about duty-free, which is- Mm. Oh, yes. [laughs]... massive. That's- Mm. Yeah. That's, I... To me, the idea of spending hundreds of dollars in, in an airport, I- is w- is wild. 35:34 But like you see people walking around with bags of stu- I don't know if either of you have ever... I, I mean, I, no. I think I've bought, like, a gift. Yeah. 35:41 'Cause I was, y- I, I messed up, and I think- That's what it's for... somebody's mom was there. Right. Um, but there are specific fragrances that are designed specifically for the duty-free shops- Mm... 35:52 for people traveling. What is that? How do you, how, what are the traits? Um, I mean, depends on what airport you're gonna be in. Mm. You know? Yeah. So- Charles de Gaulle's a little different than Heathrow. 36:04 I- probably, yep. Mm-hmm. And certain collections are only sold there. Really? Wow. Yep. I never thought about that. 36:12 I've never stopped to, like, linger in a duty-free shop of any, whether, you know, the perfume, or, or, or liquor, or the sunglasses. [laughs] It's, it's never occurred to me. Maybe next time. Mayb- maybe next time. 36:25 I never stop either, 'cause I'm never- Yeah... I never have extra time. Um, I did. I- I never plan it right. 36:30 I was just traveling this weekend, and I was at a wedding where, uh, the dinner after the wedding-I really liked this. 36:38 Um, the table settings, some flowers, but there was also a lot of brassica, some cabbage, various cabbages. And walking into the room, you could... 36:47 I, and I, I, I grew up on a farm, so I, I know that smell very well, the smell of warm brassica. Um, and walking in I'm like, at first I'm like, "This is, this is so odd. Like, where is this coming from?" Um, and then, 37:00 you know, you sit down and there's a wedge salad, great wedge salad, on the plate. [laughs] And then you start eating that, and then the, the smell of the brassica was kind of subsumed into the room. Um, 37:12 I don't know, just kind of a [laughs] just my, just my latest scent anecdote. 37:18 But I do, I don't know, I do like, when I, when I was prepping for this too, I was just thinking about all the scents, like from growing up on a farm, and like the scent of like, uh, rotting sunflower leaves on the floor when we were, you know, stripping the sunflowers, and the scent of hay in my neighbor's barn and stuff. 37:34 Um, and I was waxing poetic to myself [laughs]... last night as preparing. 37:40 Uh, but, um, I, I did wanna ask about like, I don't know, we- I asked you about your, like early childhood perfume memories, but I'm more curious too about those more like solitary scents in the world that like s- are core to, to your memory and under- understanding of smell. 37:56 For me, uh, when you put onions in a pan with butter- Oh. Mm-hmm... it's the most comforting smell ever. Yeah. 38:04 So when I started to be left alone at home when I was a kid, I would do that if I got nervous, and it would fix everything- That's so sweet... and just calm, calm me down. 38:15 Um, so that was one of the smell, like that was a, a smell of comfort for me. Mm-hmm. Um, a lot of smells take me back to summer camp. Mm. Mm-hmm. 38:26 Um, just 'cause I have a lot of memories of there, and certain locations of like sitting on, um, pine needles- Mm-hmm... you know, waiting to play volleyball, and those sorts of things. 38:37 So it'll trigger a lot of camp memories. Dry summer grass. Exactly. Um, and then even like the bathroom with 1,000 girls getting ready with a lot of spray deodorant. Like, that's a very specific smell. Um- Same for me. 38:51 I have this really strong scent memory of sitting outside the shower building and like shaving my legs with the gardening hose, 'cause they were like, "If you're just shaving, don't take the shower 'cause everyone's waiting, so you have to do it outside with the hose." 39:06 Yep. We did it with a bucket. Yeah, and the bucket. Yeah, exactly. And, um, but the smell of everyone's shampoo is mixing together and wafting out of the building. Mm-hmm. And I remember like Garnier Fructis. Yep. 39:17 And then there was that children's shampoo where the bottle looked like a fish but then the- It's a L'Oréal. Um- L'Oréal. L'Oréal. Yeah. That one takes me way back. Um, and there's even... 39:30 And the other ones that I think I remember from childhood are there, there was this gummy bear perfume, and also the Victoria's Secret body sprays when those caught on with high school girls. Mm-hmm. 39:42 Um, there was, there was a purple one. What was it called? There's a purple one, and there was a brown one that was like an amber one, and I thought everyone was either like an amber girl or like the purple one girl. 39:57 Uh, but I can still smell it so strongly. Yeah. Which one were you? Purple. Yeah. Let me look it up. Actually, it's called like Secret Delight or something. You know, they're all like that. 40:07 So I'm way, way, way older than you. Our shampoos were Finesse, Silkyends, and Prell coming out of the shower house. Oh my gosh, yeah. I don't think we used any of those. [laughs] Yep. 40:20 They don't, I don't think- Love Spell. It was called Love Spell. Love Spell, that's- Yeah... a, a classic. Are there, um... 40:28 So like the one other smell I was thinking about too w- in my, in my little scent memory, uh, last night was just sea air. Like I grew up on the coast- Mm-hmm... and sea air- Mm-hmm... and seaweed. 40:38 And I, I think, like maybe the strongest expression of that I've ever smelled is there's, I, I bought recently, this was like a year ago, in Brooklyn, this seaweed kimchi, and it w- like farmed in Maine, made in Maine. 40:50 Um, and I, like I would open the jar and like maybe take a bite, maybe just smell it and like- Mm... put it away because it was so intense. But I don't know, I- are there, are there any like sea air scents like that? 41:04 I'm just ki- I, 'cause I might wanna get one. Tons. Yeah, yeah. Okay, what's the... Give me some of the good ones. Tons. I mean, well, we have an ingredient, we have a red seaweed- Mm... 41:11 that we use, that we use for all sort of mariney- Yeah... aquatic, um, briny things. Mm-hmm. Um, I mean, the list of, of marine things- Far too many... are, are very long. 41:25 Um, I know that DS & Durga just came out with one that's in collaboration with like a whale rescue- Oh. Mm... that I think was quite aquatic in that way. Um- You know I love DS & Durga. 41:38 [laughs] And there's, um, I think it's called, I c- my French is terrible, but Un Air de Britannia- Mm-hmm... is a fragrance... after so many years in fragrance, I would think your French would be better. 41:50 I, you would think. [laughs] But after taking French 1 like three times and failing out, I can set a table. Yeah. I can do table settings- Mm... and fruits and vegetables. [laughs] And that's about as far as I can get. 42:02 I know, you would think I would pick up on it, but I just can't. Well, mine's even worse, so. [laughs] And that's like really like low tide- Mm... shipyard, like everything. The DS & Durga one? 42:14 Well, uh, the Britannia one. 42:16 Uh, 'cause I think, I don't know if this is what you're asking, Francis, but I've also thought about this too, where I'm like, "Oh, you know, I probably wouldn't wear it, but it would be nice to have like a really freaky one that smells like actually like low tide." 42:30 Yeah, like low tide, like, like spray on the rocks. Like, like, you know, salt. I think, I think you'd have to look to real niche, because- Yeah. Yeah... no one's gonna- No one's gonna s- you can't sell that... 42:41 like, wanna make one that people are, right. Yeah. [laughs] Maybe a candle. Yeah.It can. I bet that would be good. Yeah I bet if you look on Etsy there's a low tide candle. Mm-hmm. Um, are we... 42:49 So I do wanna hear more though actually about like what you do in your, in your job now. Like, we were talking a little bit about like more earlier when you were g- first getting started. 42:56 Uh, I would love to hear kind of like what your day-to-day is like in your current role. So I'm still evaluating. Yeah. Like, I still have a bunch of accounts. Um, now I just have a few evaluators under me. Mm-hmm. 43:07 And so what is my day like? Depends on how many projects I have going. Um, it can be from, like, six to 20. [laughs] Mm-hmm. Wow. Yeah. It's, it's a lot. 43:22 So we're a smaller house, so each evaluator has to have a lot of different clients rather than focus on one. Mm-hmm. Um- How, how... When you say smaller, how, how big? We're, we're the fifth-largest. Okay. 43:36 [laughs] Okay. But it's not- But there aren't- There's no... Yeah. They're not- There's bigger houses. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Um, but it sort of, like, takes a... It's, like, one, two, three, four, drop- Yeah, yeah... 43:45 five. Mm-hmm. Um, we're the biggest of the smallest. Mm-hmm. It's a nice place to be. Yeah. It's good. Sorry, I keep picturing. [laughs] Um, but we have to, like, wear a lot of different hats. Mm-hmm. 43:54 And you have to switch from brand to brand to brand, which is v- it's hard. Rather than, like, say, I work on Estee Lauder all day. Mm-hmm. Or I work on Bath & Body Works all day. One line, yeah. 44:05 And then you're sort of, like, in that zone, and we are all flipping daily. So we actually sit in an area with the perfumers- Mm... for now. Um, which is nice 'cause you can get to them very easily. 44:19 And, you know, they're formulating on their computer. Mm. And we have a lab upstairs. 44:24 And I wait for the formulas to be done, and then they put the fragrance in this little bin that says my name on it, and I go and I pull it out. 44:31 Um, and if the perfumer's here I'll smell with that person, or I'll smell on my own and give comments, and we will adjust to get it to where we think it'll be perfect. Mm-hmm. Um, or how the client would like it. 44:45 Um- Is the perfumer- Then we- Sorry. Is the perfumer-evaluator relationship like perfumer, writer, evaluator, editor? [laughs] It's more like evaluator, director. Hmm. Um, 45:02 I would say, because we s- we can give suggestions of starting points. Um, we'll say, you know, "Start with that citrus floral that you made for so-and-so- Mm... 45:14 but add a saffron note on top, and could you make it $4 less?" [laughs] "And can I have it in two days?" Yeah. You know, so we sort of have to keep everything moving. Mm-hmm. 45:25 Um, and then we get it back and then we say, "Oh, the saffron's great, but, like, that's a lot of saffron." [laughs] "Can you dial it back?" You know, j- so sort of a, a direction editing, yes. Yeah. 45:37 But together we sort of make the final decisions. Mm-hmm. When you said Bath & Body Works, I, I have so many scent memories from Bath & Body Works and of my mom rotating her scents seasonally. Mm-hmm. 45:48 Um, you know, summer meant that she would have a little spray bottle of Cucumber Melon in the fridge, and- Oh, that smells nice... you'd have, like, a cold spritz, which was awesome. 45:58 And then Sweet Pea was, like, a spring one. And then, you know whatever the, like, the Cinnamon Apple and Pumpkin ones would just come out in the fall. So I love that so much. 46:10 And I was gonna ask you, though, when you smell something at work, what are you technically smelling it on? Are you smelling it on paper? Are you smelling it on your skin? Smel- on the bottle? 46:20 Do you have to smell all those places? So this, we smell it out of blotters. This. Okay. This is a blotter. Yeah. And it's just a piece of, like, slightly thicker cardboard. Mm-hmm. 46:30 Um, we'll start there, and then, but then once you narrow it down you have to take things to skin- Mm-hmm... because they react so differently on paper versus on human. Mm-hmm. 46:42 Um, things that you don't smell at all can come up on skin, and you have to be aware of that. Hmm. Um, and certain- it's hard because certain people's skin push certain notes. 46:54 Like, I push green notes, which is, is not so helpful some of the time. Hmm. Um, so often if you're working on a project you wanna be smelling on the same person repeatedly. 47:04 Um, so we ask everyone to come in with clean skin, and we're often saying, "Does anyone have skin?" Which is a very funny request. [laughs] Especially when you first, like, uh, the interns. 47:13 We're like, "Have you got skin?" They're like, "Yeah?" [laughs] It's all over me. [laughs] All over. Head to toe. But they learn. How do you figure out what your skin pushes? Uh, you can smell it. 47:28 Like, I can smell- Compare... But you have to compare it to somebody else, right? Well, if, like, if I'm smelling a fragrance on the, on the blotter- Okay. Mm-hmm... and it's got, you know, um, citrus notes on top, 47:42 florals in the middle, and easy woods in the back. Mm-hmm. And in the floral, say, there is, you know, some white florals and some green florals, and then I put it on and suddenly these green notes are popping out. Mm. 47:52 These green florals are like pshew. You could deduce that I push green. The, the place I went to in Berlin, so I just looked it up too, it's called Breathe. If any listeners are, are in Berlin, go to Breathe. 48:04 Um- I'm gonna write that down. Yeah. It's, it's a great story. So what they, what they had, um, is beneath all the bottles on the shelves they had, like, a, a g- a glass rod that was, like, sit in a holder. 48:15 And he would just, like, pull it... He didn't, like, have to spray it on the rod. He would pull out the glass rod and you'd get a whiff of it. 48:19 I'd, I'd never seen that before, and to me it was like, like, the, the, it stays on the glass? Or, like, how often do they have to refresh that? I don't... Have you... What is the system? 48:27 I've, I've seen it with ceramics. I've never seen it with glass. It was glass. Yeah, it s- it, it made no sense to me. I didn't understand how it would, like, hold. Hmm. Um, well, you can... 48:37 I know that you can create ceramics that are scented. Okay. Um, for events. It's, it's not cheap, but you can- [laughs]... you can definitely do it. Um- Like, you put it in the clay? You put it in the mixture. Mm-hmm. 48:51 Wow.Glass I, I don't, I don't know. Maybe if you soak it long enough it just like is porous enough to suck it in. I mean- My guess was that like every day they just like spray- Yeah... 49:03 one in t- in the morning into like the, the holder. That- I don't know... that could, that could work. Mm-hmm. I did, I did, uh, speaking of, uh, scents and clay, scents and dirt, um, y- so you live in New York. 49:15 Did you happen to go to the Dia Chelsea space any time in the past year or so? Oh, the Earthroom. Not the Earthroom. Um- Oh, not the Earthroom... the, the big... Well, we, we might have talked about this. 49:25 This, the big earth, uh- We're really obsessed with the Earthroom on this podcast. [laughs] Well, you know, she does, she does have a newsletter called Dirt, so we, we do talk about dirt a lot. [laughs] Um, 49:33 okay, give me one second. I have to get the name of this artist. Delci Morelos. Um, and so what it was, it's this, you know, a big Chelsea gallery space- Mm-hmm... with like the, the high rafters, et cetera. 49:44 And, um, I don't know, probably like a, a 100 by 100 feet. It, probably more than that, and basically it was this like ziggurat of, of earth with like little bits of like dried grass sticking out and stuff. 49:56 But they used, um, scents within the dirt, and it's, the dirt is like subsuming the rafters even. It's ju- it's amazing. 50:02 You walk around the space, but they like scented it too with, with cinnamon, um, with aromatic spices including cinnamon and clove, and it's soil and clay. Uh, conceived as a shrine to peat. Um, the work uses... Anyways. 50:16 I, I wish it was still up. That is like P-E-A-T? P-E-A-T, yeah. Mm-hmm. But it was, it was the most amazing thing, and like, it was like I've never felt like so comfortable in, in a gallery space. 50:28 It was like, I don't know, I w- it, it went down in July. It's, that's 'cause you come from the dirt. Exactly. Yeah. That was your onions and butter. You, you got me, you got me pegged. [laughs] Right? 50:35 I mean, that's your comfort zone. It is. Could you s- could you smell the cinnamon and clove as you walked in? 50:40 Well, s- I did, but I didn't n- understand that s- that, that that's what that was until we asked the gallery attendant. Um, and like- Mm-hmm... oh, like how did they make this, et cetera. 50:49 Um, 'cause it, I thought that was... I was like, "Oh, this is just some exquisite dirt," you know? Like- Right. It's great... like, I'm like, I, you know, I, the smell of like manure and dirt is like nostalgic to me too. 50:58 It doesn't have to be [laughs] cinnamon and clove. Mm-hmm. It's just, it's just the dirt. Um, but it was such an amazing ef- I wish it was still up. Yeah. But now it's just, now it's just my memory. 51:08 Oh, it's just that memory. Yeah. It's interesting 'cause cinnamon and clove is not what I would normally associate with dirt. Mm-hmm. I mean, those are those classic holiday notes. Yeah. Mm-hmm. 51:17 You know, that take you to Bath & Body Works, take you- [laughs]... to pumpkin, take you to, uh, you know- It wasn't so sharp, though... chai or whatever. Mm-hmm. Um, but that's it. 51:26 Like I would've thought more hay or tobacco or something like that. The hay was in there, I think, naturally, 'cause the, the- Real hay... yeah, the real hay. Right. Which I love the smell of hay. 51:34 [laughs] It's the, I love the smell of hay too. Mm-hmm. It's really, it's, it's got so much happening in it. Mm-hmm. It's like cozy and fresh. What are your, uh, uh, top, top three 51:48 ingredient, top three underrated ingredients? Notes or ingredients? Notes. Ing- Oh. I don't know... note, ingredients. Oh, note. Well, I don't know the difference. I'm a rube. Oh. Um, hmm, okay. So let's... 52:00 We could just, let's say ingredients. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And, but my, they're, mine are not underrated. Oh, okay. Well, that's okay. Yeah, yeah. So orris is- Mm... 52:10 one of my favorites, um, which is to me it always is the smell of a rich lady's purse. Mm. Oh, that's perfect. I like the inside. It's slightly cosmetic. Mm. It's slightly leathery. It's, um, 52:24 it's what I like to use when anyone's like, "Could you elevate this fragrance?" If you put more orris in it, it just makes it fancier. Mm. Um, and it's white. It's just, it's pretty great. 52:36 One, so we have this curry note- Oh... that I have spent my whole career here trying to incorporate into fragrance. Um, so far I've got one on the market with it in it, but it is the hardest- Sort of like a curry leaf? 52:53 Um, it, yeah, smells like curry. Yeah. Smells like curry powder. Mm-hmm. Um, I- Can you tell us which perfume is on the market that has it in it? Just- Or is it not public? Oh yeah, it's, um... God, I can't. 53:06 The brand is Laubern. Okay. And I think it's in Hinterland. Hmm. I'm not- Great name... 100% sure that that's the one that has the curry, but it's definitely that brand, but, and one of them has the curry. 53:20 So I'm always trying to make this work. I just tried to do a curry chocolate. Um, so that's one of my favorites. Mm. 53:27 It's just 'cause it's so, it's so unique, and we're always looking for like that something different, you know? So the curry is, is my friend. There's a note called davana that we use. Mm. It's a sort of a dried fruit, 53:41 um, pruny, raisiny, kind of smells a little bit like the middle of a Fig Newton- Ooh... um, that I really enjoy. When I just started I was like, "Hey, if I have a kid I'm gonna name my kid Davana." I didn't. Yeah. 53:55 [laughs] But I was like, "That's a pre- [laughs] that's a pretty-" The future. Free idea- Right?... for listeners. Any listeners who are pregnant right now, maybe, you know, think about it. Feel free, take it. Yeah. 54:03 [laughs] Davana. And then I would make up, I, so my thing is making up ridiculous fragrance names for the submissions. Oh. Um, and- Do, wait, do you, do you get to help name these fragrances some- sometimes? 54:15 N- I do them all. You do them all? Like for me, I, I do all mine. Okay. And I live for a pun. Mm. So it's for, the things that I've come up with are absurd. Davana Dance With Somebody. [laughs] Yeah. Shut up. 54:27 That's a good one. Yeah. 54:30 [laughs] Wait, so okay, so this is, this is actually the, one, uh, the reason I ask that question is I'm not fully clear on like, like you, you guys are making them for other houses, like or f- I mean for clients- Yes... 54:40 and, and you're h- yeah. So but, but you help name the final thing. Like it's kind of like- No. Okay. Not the final thing. It's the internal. The internal one. Okay, okay, yeah. 54:47 But I will say I've, some, some brands have taken my names and launched those. Oh, okay. Mm-hmm. Hmm. No one said anything. And you're like, "Well, that was a, supposed to be a bad pun, but- [laughs]... 54:59 somebody must have liked it." It wasn't the really punny ones. Okay.Last time we talked, um, we were talking about developing scents with celebrities. Some celebrities are super involved and some aren't. 55:10 But going back to the Mary J. 55:12 Blige example, and the sort of like parasociality with like traditional celebrities, but like also new celebrities, which are like influencers, um, I think I get the sense that the person who's buying it really wants to believe that that celebrity was involved. 55:28 But maybe ultimately it doesn't matter because it's either a good scent or not a good scent. Like Ariana Grande, she has a reputation of having some of the best celebrity perfume- Mm-hmm... 55:42 products, but whether that means she was the most involved at this point or involved at all, I feel like people don't necessarily care once it acquires the reputation of being good. 55:53 But in the beginning, that storytelling or the parasociality is much more important. Having a great creative director. Right. And I mean, the popularity of the celebrity in itself is your sort of launchpad. Mm-hmm. 56:08 You know? Every, every super fan is gonna buy one. But if it's bad, will they buy it again? Or would they buy a second- I, they, I don't think they will. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think they will. 56:18 But it doesn't matter because they'll come out with another one- [laughs]... shortly after, so they don't have to. Yeah. They can buy the next one. Yeah. Yeah. Right. But I mean, 56:34 Ariana Grande just came out with three more. Yeah. So you're good to go. Yeah. 56:51 If you like Ariana Grande, you, you are gonna be fulfilled in your fragrance collection with plenty. Yeah. You will have five vanilla perfumes. [laughs] Right. Um, I actually, 57:04 I've liked the ones of hers that I've smelled. Mm-hmm. And some of them are great. Yeah. Some of them are really good. But they're definitely, um- They cater to a certain client. Yeah. 57:13 They're just like, they're inoffensive, and sometimes I wanna be a little offended. [laughs] Right. I mean, they're, they're, they're sweet and yummy and easy- Mm-hmm... and summer woods, and they're well-rounded. Yeah. 57:26 Mm-hmm. Exactly. It's, this is not gonna be your, you know, Low Tide. Yes. It's not com- it's, you're not gonna have Ariana Grande brings you Low Tide. Brings you Low Tide. 57:34 Well, as we were talking, I remembered another perfume that sort of falls in this category by Hilde Soliani. The- I hope I'm pronouncing her name okay. Yeah. Yeah. I think she makes all those gourmand ones, yeah? Yeah. 57:47 And there was a big profile of her in, I think, New York Times Magazine. In the Times, yeah. Yeah, which like three different people sent to me. It, it, I love when that happens. 57:55 [laughs] My dad sends it, my cousin sends it, three friends send it. Any fragrance article, it's sort of, I like it. Yeah. It's cute. My agent was like, "Have you seen this?" But it's called Miss Strachan. 58:05 It was made for, as a tribute to a seafood chef. Mm. And the scent notes are butter, lobster, oyster, saffron, and salt. That sounds so good. That's your fragrance. That's what you're looking for. I might order a sample. 58:19 Listener, think about that, the butter, the fragrance, the salt. Think about Low Tide. Uh, and we'll see you next week, 'cause this has been Tasteland. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for joining us, Phoebe. 58:29 Oh, it was a pleasure. Thank you so much. [upbeat music] It tastes just like it costs
