Transcript 0:00 [upbeat music] Welcome back to Tasteland. I am your co-host, Francis Zehrer. And I'm Daisy Alioto. And Daisy, who are we speaking with today? Today we're speaking with Jesse Hirsch. 0:17 He's the editor of Off Range. He spent years working as a journalist focused on food and agriculture, topic that comes up frequently on this podcast. Love those things. 0:25 And he was most recently the managing editor at The Counter. His work has appeared in The New York Times, Wall Street Journal, Guardian, San Francisco Chronicle, Bon Appétit, Eater, and other outlets. Nice. 0:38 Yeah, I'm excited to talk to Jesse. Um, before we get to him though, I wanna tell you about an insane experience I had at the cinema on Friday. I went to the Regal Essex- Okay... 0:51 on, in Manhattan's Lower East Side to see Nirvana, the band, the show, the movie. Yes. Really fun movie. I had a great, great time. It was an early showing. It was like 5:00 PM. Mm-hmm. Went right at the end of the day. 1:02 So, you know, indie movie, kinda near the end of its runtime at the Regal Essex. S- the theater's not that full. 1:09 I'm sat in the back row, and, like, there's only two other people in the back row besides me and Emma, and there's one seat between me and them. It's like the big Regal seats. Mm-hmm. And, um- 1:20 Why did you sit so close to them? Or did they sit so close to you? Well, I, I had... I... When I bought the seats, and I selected them, there was like, there was- Got it... they were right there. Uh- Got it... but 1:29 very quickly, like around 10 minutes in, I noticed that the woman, who was the one closer to me, is just scrolling her phone. Um, and, you know, I'm like, "Whatever." Like, maybe I'll say something. I didn't say... 1:39 I didn't say anything. Anyway, she's scrolling her phone the entire time. Greta Rainbow. Greta Rainbow would've said something. Greta R- well, you know, I wish, I wish, I wish I was as strong as Greta. Um- [laughs] 1:47 But pretty soon enough, pulls out a burrito. That's fine. I'm, I'm, you know, bringing food into the theater to eat it, I'm cool with that. That's cool. Yeah. Halfway through the movie, she pulls out her laptop. No. 1:59 Laptop, in the middle of the movie, and I j- I mean, this time I stare over, and I just kind of stare, stare at her until she puts it away. She has her laptop out for a full minute. 2:07 She doesn't really do anything with it. She just kind of logs in, and I don't know if she's checking wifi or checking some document. Um, puts it away, and then she keeps scrolling her phone for the rest of the movie. 2:15 But I've ne- I've never seen, I have never seen somebody take out a laptop. That's crazy. Yeah, it was awful. What time was the movie? 4:50. What a weirdo. Yeah. 2:25 I was gonna say, maybe she needed to, like, look like she was on Teams, but you can do that on your phone. No. Yeah. No, she was actually scrolling, scrolling her phone the entire time. Anyways, I, it w- it, it was just, 2:35 it was just awful. Yeah. That's really crazy. But the movie was good. I enjoyed the movie. It was, it was funny. 2:38 It's like, um, you know, it, it's one of those movies that, obviously, the creators are used to working with a low budget, and they got- Yeah... 2:47 a little bit more budget for this, but it wasn't so much budget that they then didn't know what to do with it and ruined it. They, like, pulled it off. Yeah. That's good. Yeah. That makes me happy. 2:57 [laughs] I'm, I'm glad. I'm glad that that makes you happy. The other thing, in my life this weekend, I've fallen victim to these... 3:07 Have you seen these Instagram ads, these ads on Instagram that are, like, modular ads for eBay or Depop or, like, niche secondhand sites that fill in... 3:17 It's like it'll be like a frame- Are you a victim, or are you a willing participant? Where, where, where's the line? [laughs] Can you tell me where the line is? I think we all have to decide for ourselves the line. 3:26 So I spent $200 on Depop this weekend. Wow. Yeah. Brave. Brave. What did you buy? I bought, um- Brave to admit it on this podcast... brave to admit it. Yeah, well, you know, uh, look, I, I reveal a lot about myself. 3:38 I embarrass myself on this podcast every, every week. Y- I know- Me too... that's not necessarily your thing. But, um, I bought a J. Crew sweater, 100% wool, gray, made in China. 3:46 Just do fewer embarrassing things, perhaps. That's probably true. Um, I bought this pair of Levi 501s. Those were, like, 40 bucks, and I bought a '90s Armani shirt, sort of a fine rib. That was, like, 90 or 100 bucks. 4:01 And I'm sure that it was listed as an '90s Armani shirt. Yeah. That... Look, the ads know me. Anyways, Jesse's here. Let's get to know him. [upbeat music] You left New York. You left New York. Where are you? I did. 4:18 Massachusetts. Oh, that's where I'm from. Little western Massachusetts. Okay. Are you from there? I am. Um, I'm from Wrentham. I don't know what that is. Wren- Wrentham Runway? 4:29 It's, um, it's near, uh- Does it have a W in it? Yeah. It's five minutes from Gillette Stadium. Okay. So Foxborough, Attleboro. Where... Are you in the Berkshires? Just shy of the Berkshires. Uh- Okay... 4:39 like Pioneer Valley, uh, Smith College- Yeah... Northampton area. Gillette Stadium- Nice. Nice. I love that area... 4:44 I, I read recently that, uh, FIFA owes the Foxborough city council, town council, something like this, uh, uh, like, $8 million, something like that, maybe even more, um, because they're gonna have World Cup games at Gillette Stadium. 4:58 Oh, yeah. But, uh, FIFA isn't coughing up, which I can relate to that, having some World Cup tickets that are currently... I've resold through the FIFA reselling platform, and it's been 60 days since I resold them. 5:10 They still haven't paid me. That's a private grievance that I'm airing out here. [laughs] But, so Off Range recently published a story about, uh, grass in World Cup stadiums. 5:19 So why is- Oh, I was wondering how you were gonna handle that transition... we wrote this story. It's very elegant. [laughs] No. Yeah. 5:25 It was quite elegant, and also that you have something in common with the Foxborough city council is kind of interesting, too. [laughs] Um- Should I not? What's up with the Foxborough city council? No, nothing. 5:34 I just think that you guys should be allies- [laughs]... in your [laughs] debt recovery efforts. Against the, the, the, the evil entity that is FIFA. You should write a letter of support, Francis. Yes. 5:42 I should sue FIFA, is what I should do. You should all sue FIFA. Yeah. That peace prize was a sham. 5:49 Um, the story that we did was about how basically the F- for World Cup, a lot of the stadiums that they're using do not use natural grass. 5:57 Uh, they use, like, AstroTurf, and it's kind of a really-Like, like the stadiums in Europe will have it all the time. They figure, you know, they just play soccer all the time, but this is gonna be like a one and done. 6:07 So they s- they spent $5 million on sod research, um, basically figuring out how to just like zoom in, roll down some, some nice pieces for us. FIFA, FIFA spent this money. FIFA did. FIFA did, yes. 6:18 Uh, they put $5 million into research, um, in collaboration with some universities and farmers. 6:23 Um, and it's gonna be a big boon for the sod farming industry, which is like not something that people think about very much, but it actually, it is like a whole cohort. 6:32 They're trying to get their own like lobbying group right now, actually- Hmm... the Sod Farmers of America. 6:36 Where, do you know, is there like a specific state where most of the sod farmers are located or something like that? Uh, Rhode Island, actually. 6:43 [laughs] Oddly enough, if you drive through Rhode Island, you will see a lot of just, it looks like huge lawns, but they're being like watered by like industrial ir- irrigation machines. 6:51 I would've thought Sod and cranberry bogs. Mm-hmm. Everyone who grew up in New England has the canonical experience of going on the cranberry bog field trip. That's true. 7:01 [laughs] And very few, I think, have the sod field trip in their memory. My parents brought us too. Like, you wake up on a Saturday, and they're like, "Get up. We're going to the cranberry bog." 7:09 [laughs] And then you never, and you never see a cranberry bog again in your whole life. That's true. But it sticks with you. Mm. Um, taking a step back, I realize we never really said what Off Range is. 7:19 Um, so it's a digital publication covering American agriculture, food production, and natural resources. Yes. We publish three original stories each week, a monthly podcast, a weekly newsletter. Yes. It's a lot. 7:29 That's like, that's, you're putting up dirt numbers. Um, and so we, will you get into like Ambrook versus Off Range? 'Cause I know there was a little bit of a rebrand recently. Mm-hmm. 7:39 But started off, and is still embedded within a company that builds software tools for family-run American farms. Mm. Um, so how does, how does that work, and what, what's... Did you guys fully rebrand? 7:53 Yes, fully rebrand, um, from Ambrook Research to Off Range. 7:57 Um, so when it first started out, uh, I had just left another publication, um, The Counter, which is a nonprofit doing food and agriculture coverage, and somebody said, "Do you want to have a conversation with the CEO of this company, Ambrook," that I had never heard of. 8:11 And I was kinda, I was a little iffy on it 'cause I had thought it would be a marketing job. Hmm. Like, I thought this was gonna be like editing press releases or, you know, dealing with the website. 8:19 Um, but it was a [laughs] very kind of exciting and novel idea. It was like, here's this thing that we wanna start. We don't know exactly how it's gonna look. Um, they had done, like it existed. 8:28 They had 10 different articles up, and most of them were research projects that someone had done in collaboration with like university professors. 8:35 Um, they were very, it was more like an academic study than it was an article. Um, but yeah, Mackenzie, the CEO, was just like, "The, you know, like we loved The Counter. 8:44 Um, I think that providing news and information for people who actually are working in farming and ranching would be like a great service, you know, to the people that we would like as customers ult- ultimately." 8:55 Um, they did that, and they also did this funding library, which was like, uh, a resource for farmers to go on and figure out all the grants and loans that they could apply for anywhere. 9:03 Um, and these were just kind of thought of as this, as little, little gifts, little bonbons for the, for the industry. 9:09 Um, and she was like, "So I don't know exactly how it would look, but like in collaboration with you, like could we try this out?" Um, and so we just did it for three months. 9:17 Um, I was a little nervous about the idea of editorial independence- Hmm... 'cause I had never worked at a place that was like funded by one specific company. 9:26 Um, but after three months, I was like, "Okay, no, they really, this is not, this is not just like marketing lite. This is like a real actual agricultural publication." 9:34 Um, so I think I, I got hired in July maybe, and then by December, we were actually putting out the three stories a week and the newsletter. How long had Ambrook the company been around by the time you joined? 9:47 Um, well, there's, I get like mixed answers to that because, you know, with the clock started kind of when the three founders sat around in a living room, you know, and were just like whiteboarding it. 9:57 But, um, I, they said it was about two years when I was there. Um, 10:02 they, they had gone around and actually done kind of a listening tour to figure out from farmers around the country what the, um, the pain points were in their bookkeeping and their finances. 10:11 Like, how they could be useful rather than just like busting in and disrupting without knowing what they were dealing with. Yeah. 10:17 A question too on the difference between like what you're doing in marketing, as somebody who runs a publication owned by a company that is to some extent marketing myself, um, 10:28 I was clicking around on the Ambrook website, and I saw that you guys are hiring your first content marketing hire. Which is like- That's right... 10:36 reading that, it's like, okay, so you, you know- Francis, are you throwing your, your- [laughs] I'm throwing my hand in the ring. No, I'm, I'm happily employed. 10:41 No, but I, but I thought this was, was really interesting because like this, the, the, like what, what that tells me is that like what you do was even though it's like not marketing, as you said, it's also not not marketing. 10:53 And for the first few years of you doing it, it's like the bet has been that this is our content marketing function, and then only now, three years later, do we need like a formal content marketing function. Mm-hmm. 11:05 So yeah, I'm just curious about like the, the degree to which Off Range is and is not content marketing for Ambrook. Sure. I mean, I think the, I think the key thing is just like intent and how explicit it is. 11:18 You know, like, yes, we put out this newsletter, uh, every week, but you know, I'm not telling you about Ambrook products that you can buy, or like, you know, what a, what a smooth and seamless system it is. 11:27 But I will talk about, you know, like f- uh, this week we went on a team retreat, right? 11:32 And I, interest- interestingly, even though there is full editorial independence, like I worked in the New York office, like I, the, I consider these people my colleagues- Yeah... the engineers, the salespeople. 11:40 Um, so I mean, in that sense, like just general Ambrook positivity [laughs] that I exude, like that, that would function as some kind of marketing. 11:49 Um, but I think it's pretty key that like, you know, I- Jesse, I don't wanna hold you to it, but you did promise me a hat at one point. I did. Do you... I was just thinking about that actually. 11:58 [laughs] At the team, at the team retreat, I- I was waiting to confront you on mic [laughs] I almost wore that hat, but then I was like, "It's too on the nose." Um- Yeah... do you want the, the white one or the dark one? 12:06 I can't remember.Oh, I forgot I want the dark one, if that's okay. [laughs] Yeah. This isn't about you. I grabbed one. I'm making it about me. Reggie has the dark one. Yeah. Reggie James has also been on this podcast. 12:17 Ugh, they're both so nice. All right. You can... So if I can split it, I have one dark and one cream colored, so- Okay. Send me the cream and Francis the dark. Amazing. Okay. 12:26 Well, so o- on the, on the, on this topic of, like, editorial and pen separation, like, with what I do, so I do Creator Spotlight for Beehiiv newsletter- Mm-hmm... and, and more software company. 12:35 And what I do, like, sometimes I'll write about people who use Beehiiv, but I see it more as, like, I'm propagating this, this worldview that's aligned with Beehiiv's customers, right? Which is like- Mm-hmm... 12:45 this is a certain type of creator. This is a certain type of digital media entrepreneur. I'm promoting that way of, of working, right? 12:53 Um, with Ambrook, so looking at the editorial guidelines on your website, there was one line I pulled. 12:58 "We will avoid coverage of a, a particular company, organization, or individual if there is a working relationship with Ambrook, the company that funds Off Range. 13:05 We strive at all times to maintain editorial independence, but sometimes the reality of doing business will inevitably influence coverage decisions." 13:11 So my question is, like, you know, when what I'm doing with Creator Spotlight is I see it as, like, worldview propagation. Is, is, is, like, the mission of Off Range to... Like, is there a defined worldview that you guys 13:24 work around? I would say no. I mean, there's no such thing as, like, journalistic neutrality, uh, right? Um, but I think that there is kind of... Well, like, we have, our readership is 60% farmers and ranchers, right? 13:38 Mm-hmm. And that's, like, from all sides of the types of farm- like, the ideological spectrum. 13:43 And fr- you know, we have, like, small CSA farmers in Vermont, and then we also have, like, row crop farmers in Iowa and cattle ranchers in Texas. Um, and we hear from them. 13:52 That's how I know, because [laughs] they're vocal, you know. And we hear complaints sometimes about, you know, like, the, that c- you know, like I... That coverage is too crunchy. 14:01 You're not really taking in the economic realities of what I have to deal with day to day, or vice versa. You know, like, wow, how could you promote something that's, like, destroying the planet? So- Mm-hmm... 14:09 essentially, I mean, I'm trying to s- to walk a pretty fine line down the middle and pres- present, you know, just the re- the facts on the ground of what is happening in agriculture and, um, like, 14:22 scientific studies on, you know, pesticide runoff or, um- Mm-hmm... you know, like we will, we'll do labor stories and just take them where they go. 14:30 Um, you know, and so- and sometimes that's gonna inevitably end up seeming, like, coded one way or the other, but- Well, the, the scientific study is from what, again, from what I understand, like, that's really the core of this, is, like, you're looking for data in and around- Mm-hmm... 14:41 like, the agriculture farming, and that is the foundation of your stories. What's the hard data we can find that has something to say, and then- Right... we will build stories around that. This is true. 14:50 Um, but I d- I do think that there's also a very human part of it too, right? Like, we, we insist that there's gonna be some farmer or rancher voice in every story. 14:59 And if it's, like, uh, let's say it's about lobster fishing, then it's gonna be a lobsterman. Or if it's about livestock veterinarians, we're gonna have a livestock veterinarian who speaks, right? 15:08 Like, I think a lot of, like, mainstream coverage of agriculture can sometimes not actually include the voices of, you know, the people being covered. It'll be like- Mm-hmm... 15:16 ad- advocates, politicians, academics without, um... So yeah, as it's evolved, I f- I feel like those voices have become more prominently pieces of the articles. 15:26 Um, and we even do, like, first person essays now, um, which I think has been really nice, like, just hearing actual stories of like- From farmers From farmers, yeah. 15:34 The, we, we, we mentioned the rebrand earlier, but I did wanna follow up on that. So I, I, I'm a, I, you, you wrote a piece about the rebrand, how when you joined you were like, "Hey, are we married to the name?" 15:43 And they said, "Yes, we wanna promote Ambrook-" Right "... so it has to be called Ambrook Research." Uh, and then it was last summer, I think in June, that you launched the rebrand. Yep. 15:51 Um, why were you able to do it then? I imagine it's connected to, like, you know, now they're hiring a content marketer, so they're now making a more dedicated marketing effort. I don't know. 15:59 I'm answering the question for you. Uh, why [laughs] were you finally able to rebrand? Um, I think there's a few reasons. 16:05 Like, one thing, [laughs] one thing that's interesting is, like, obviously when we were first doing this thing, it was a calling card too, right? Like, it was a way to, like, get the word Ambrook... 16:12 Like, that's what I was told, right? Like, we have to keep Ambrook in there because no one knows who Ambrook is yet. 16:17 You know, like, we're still making a name for ourselves, and this is a, this is just, like, another way that then the name is on people's lips. 16:22 Um, but [laughs] then as I understand it, like, some of the agriculture conventions that, like, the salespeople would go to, people would come up and be like, "Oh, I love Ambrook." 16:30 W- And then they'd, they'd try to sell them accounting software, and they're like, "No, I mean, uh, the stories. Like, I like- [laughs]... I like, [laughs] you know, like, I like the articles you publish." 16:36 So it was too successful at noting the name. Yeah. [laughs] Yeah. So there's a little bit of that. 16:41 Um, and then I also think that there is kind of a push, like, to ultimately make [laughs] like, like, an incubator that makes, uh, Off Range or, you know, Ambrook Research, this media brand, become something that can stand on its own two feet someday. 16:56 Um, and, like, there are challenges with working with it with one company alone that, you know, like, I feel like maybe more kind of investigative features, for instance- Mm-hmm... 17:06 you know, like looking at difficult issues in agriculture could be accomplished, um, if we were able to achieve full independence. 17:14 So, like, changing the name was a way of kind of gi- giving a little more sunlight between the two. How many people work on it full-time on, on Off Range? Uh- Just you? Me. Yeah, it's me. 17:24 I mean, we have almost a full-time designer. Um, and, and, like, that's a big part of it too, is I think the look is really distinct. Um, a lot of care put into the way that it kind of feels- Yeah... 17:34 the, the newsletter and the stories. How did you get into the food and architecture beat originally? 17:39 I did one of those, like, funny things where you send a, a publisher of a magazine a typo that you found on their website. 17:45 [laughs] And then you're like, "Hey, I found this typo, but also I'm available for, um- [laughs]... any of, [laughs] any of your editing needs." Um, it was Edible Queens Magazine. 17:53 I was living in Astoria, Queens, and it was a small food magazine, and I read this, like, New York Post story about the publisher, and it was all about how overworked she was, and I was like- [laughs]... "Hmm." 18:04 And it was just a beautiful publication. Like, Anthony Bourdain was on the front cover of the first issue. Um, and I just like, it made me proud to live in Queens, and I was like, "Oh, nice. Okay. 18:12 Getting some recognition." You know, this was over a decade ago. Um, so I wrote to her, and the gambit worked. She was like, "Yes, I'm actually like, have no help at all. 18:20 Um, can I, I'll take you on as a part-time editor." 18:22 And then I just started freelancing about foodUm, first full-time food writing job was as a restaurant critic in Oakland at the Alt Weekly, which is really strange and kind of- Can, can you tell us about that? 18:35 What was the, what was the scene? This was in the early 2010s. What was, what was the scene you were covering back then? Um, it was Oakland getting fancy. Uh, I mean, that was kinda, that's kinda was my assignment. 18:45 They, they took it seriously enough, even though this was an alt-weekly, that I had to scrub my picture off the web. I had to get a fake credit card. I had to get a fake- Hmm... like OpenTable account. 18:52 Like, they were like, "You're gonna do the real food critic thing." Wow. Um, and yeah, uh, you know, I lived in... It was a weird, I did a reverse commute. I was living in San Francisco, commuting to Oakland every day. 19:03 Um, and yeah, I just kinda got dropped in... I felt like I parachuted in there, because, you know, I knew San Francisco, but I didn't know Oakland that well. 19:10 Um, so it was, it was kind of documenting the, the fancification of Oakland. That's what it felt like. Um- Do you still absorb a lot of food and restaurant criticism, or have you divested from the scene? 19:22 I know that it's changed also a lot. Um, I don't... I think that it's, like, in me personally, you know? Mm-hmm. 19:29 I j- I just think that I personally like to go to restaurants, and now that I'm in Western Mass, you know, like, this is, like, a burgeoning scene of, like, really good places to eat. 19:38 Um, s- so I enjoy it, and I, you know, I, I nerd out a little more than maybe my friends want me to. You know, like I'll, I can talk [laughs] for a while. 19:46 Um, but n- but professionally, no, I don't, I don't put much into that. It, it really is just, like, places that I could potentially go to and, and have a good meal. What's the difference- What's the best- Okay. 19:55 Oh, go ahead, Francis. No, no, no, Daisy, I, you have a better- I was gonna ask. We love to ask people what the meal, the best meal they had so far this year was. Oh, goodness. Um, 20:05 I think that I would say it was, like, on New Year's Eve, uh- Mm... a place in Northampton called Dirty Truth, uh, that was like- Mm... 20:12 we went there because it seemed like it was, like, fun vibes and good cocktails, but then the food was just, like, phenomenal. 20:17 And because I don't think I had high expectations, uh, like, it just, it went through the roof. Um, I had a pork pasta dish that... 20:25 Like, this is why [laughs] I wasn't that great of a restaurant critic is 'cause, like, the details of a, an actual dish can't come through as well. Can't even tell me the shape of the pasta. Uh, yeah. 20:32 It was, like, long, you know? [laughs] Long works. I had, oh, wait, I had the best... This is, this is, like, years ago. I still think about this. It was a restaurant Forsythia on, in, in Manhattan. 20:43 Um, I had these beef short rib agnolotti, which are like those little, like, dumpling-like little pockets, and it was, the sauce was this, like, cooked down beef jus, so unctuous, um, that I just- Ooh, you're doing good... 20:56 reminded me of that. Yeah. See, I'm, I'm a- Unctuous [laughs]... I'm auditioning for, uh- Francis would be a good restaurant critic... for Edible Queens. I would. 21:03 In another life I am one, but that's, that's not this life. C- can I, can I say that- You could also be-... candidly, like, I was not a great restaurant critic. 21:09 Like, I think I was good at describing, like, f- the feel of, like, what it would be like to be there. Mm. The atmosphere, the kind of- The atmosphere, yeah... you know, like, who this is for. 21:17 But in terms of, like, actually describing the food on your plate, I would always call the chef afterwards to be like, "So that w- you know, like, I loved that sesame noodles dish." 21:25 And they'd be like, "There was no sesame in that." [laughs] "That was lemongrass," or whatever, you know? Like, that happened to me a lot, and I was like, "Oh, y- your palate is not, you're not a super taster." 21:34 So anyway. Well, atmosphere is all some people care about, so- Yeah... maybe we'd just be an atmosphere critic. That'll be a new job. Well, that's- Yes... that's just called an architecture critic, I think. Fair enough. 21:45 Uh, what's, what's the difference for you, uh, in, in as much as there is one, in covering food, restaurants, versus farming and agriculture? It, it feels like a pretty s- distinct difference. 21:55 Although, I was just talking to, um, I'm gonna talk about a freelance pitch that I just took yesterday, because she pi- Mm... it was a, it was kind of a foodie pitch. 22:03 It was about the taste of bitter, um, and, like, a long hel- like, that in the food industry, bitter is kind of, like, frowned upon. But then in other cultures, bitter is, like, one of the many flavors that people enjoy. 22:14 Mm-hmm. Um, and it was about, like, marketing efforts to sell certain brit- uh, bitter produce here in the United States, and, like, you know, whether or not that will take off, and how challenging that is. 22:24 And I was like, "Hmm, that's kinda, that's kind of about the consumer, and it's kind of about the palate. 22:28 That's almost not an Off Range story, but also, like, it's kinda funky and weird," and, like, we would be able to get into, like, the people who are growing these vegetables. 22:36 So, like, um, but I think that that's probably the outer limit of, of what we would do. Um, I don't know. A lot of, a lot of food writing, 22:46 I'm gonna, like, alienate my- nate [laughs] myself from people that I know, but, like, it just feels a bit precious, you know? Mm-hmm. 22:51 Like, it, it feels, it feels like it's not taking into the context of, like, everything that got it to the plate. 22:56 Um, and I think just after doing this for a while, that, that ends up f- feeling a bit frivolous to me, you know? 23:01 Like, I wanna know about the labor that went into it, you know, like, the, the bottom line of the people who are growing the food, things like that. 23:08 I think that's where it's- Tell, tell us about some, like, the farming, agriculture, people who are growing the food type of work you were doing before Off Range and Ambrook. Um, [laughs] 23:16 so are you two familiar with Modern Farmer, how it initially hit the scene, the magazine? I, I'm not. Mm, mm-mm. No? Um, I'll send you a, a New York Times, like, article that they wrote making fun of it. 23:28 Basically, when it came out, it was, like, a glossy lifestyle magazine. It was, like, 2014, I think. Um, yeah Like Kinfolk vibes. Very. Hmm. Very Kinfolk vibes. Uh, the person who started it came from Monocle. 23:41 Um, and it was very much, like, because this was a time when you had that story of, like, the Wall Street broker who's like, "I'm just gonna open a cupcake truck," or, but, or- [laughs]... 23:50 you know, even better, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go and buy li- Cupcakes. Oh my God. That was a time... buy, like, 10 sheep or a winery or something and just live off the land. Late stage stomp clap hey. 23:59 [laughs] Yes, exactly. That's hey, H-A-Y. [laughs] That was good. I'm picturing, like, a lot of, like, hands with, like, the soil- Mm. Oh, yeah... raked through it, you know? Stock photos. Yeah. 24:12 [laughs] Stock photos, like- If you, uh, Jesse, if you ever wanna write a piece for Dirt about, um, like, the conventions of the farming stock photo- Mm... it'd be very down to publish it. 24:23 [laughs] We, we actually, at Modern Farmer, we published, like, just a daily piece where we set... It was, like, 24 photos of people holding soil.And we just tried to, like, do an array. And then, like- [laughs]... 24:34 Jake, like, our digital editor m- just made little snarky captions for each one. [laughs] Ship it. That's so funny. 24:39 Um, but yeah, so Modern Farmer was, like, this very weird hybrid, because it kind of was, like, we did a fashion shoot with actual f- like- Mm... good-looking farmers wearing, like, high-end w- work gear. 24:50 But then it als- was also, like, uh, hard-hitting journalism too. 24:53 Like, the first story that I did for them was I went to Mississippi and investigated how wild pigs were kind of, like, running wild, were, like, ruining the land and causing- Years before 30 to 50 Wild Hogs. 25:03 [laughs] Years before. 30 to 50 Wild Hogs came out, and I'm like, "That's my beat." [laughs] I've been working on this for a decade, and they just tweeted it out. They just tweeted it out. Yes, exactly. [laughs] Exactly. 25:16 Um, so yeah, I mean, we d- we did a lot of serious agriculture journalism, and I just had never gone there before. And I was just like, "Ooh, I like this." You know? Like, I don't have a farm background. Um, I... 25:26 This, this isn't, like, something that was, like, in my blood, but it was just really interesting. And I loved how agriculture journalism kind of intersects with, like, technology and culture and business, you know. 25:36 Like, you can make a lot of different types of stories with farming- Mm... at the core. 25:40 Um, and it seems like that was, like, a really good time for it too, because, uh, that was a time when a lot of people were just, like, getting interested in, like, what's on their plate, and the farm to table was kind of, like, you know, going through the roof. 25:50 Um, so there was a good built-in readership of, like, [smacks lips] farmers market shoppers is what we kind of thought of as our target demo. I am, um... I was talking to my mother on the phone this weekend. 26:00 So I grew up on a small farm in northern California, eight acres, organic produce, flowers, nursery starts. 26:06 And speaking of farmers market shoppers in that era, so let's say, you know, 2010 to 2014, I would, you know, I would work the farmers market, um, in the summers and on Saturdays. And I remember... 26:20 When you say farmers market shoppers, I think of the people who I'd be standing near the front of the booth, and we had our Romanesco displayed there, right? Mm. 26:25 And it's a beautiful vegetable, beautiful, beau- beautiful brassica- Beautiful... that Romanesco. And people would say, "What is this?" 26:30 And they'd take photos, and I'd tell them, "Oh, so it's, you know, kinda like broccoli, kinda like cauliflower. It's really good." And they'd say, "Huh." And then they would move on and not buy any. 26:38 And I hated those people. I hated them. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I just- Oh, that, that's it? [laughs] That's it. You're still mad? Okay. I'm just bitter. Um- [laughs] I'm, I'm bitter. Like, just the people. Better like the flavor. 26:48 Better like the flavor. Mm. Yes. Yeah. Exactly. You'll ha- you'll have your day. Um- So... Oh, go ahead. 26:53 I was just gonna say w- we also at Modern Farmer did a, a Romanesco story because our intern, who is a little, um, dreamy, she loved- Mm... how the... It's, it's a fractal, right? It's fractals, yeah. 27:03 It's a fractal, and that, and, like, that's the only vegetable that it was. So it's like, she just, like, wrote a personal essay that was, like, an ode to, like, the beauty of looking at a Romanesco. Um- Yeah... 27:11 it just kind of- And I bet she also came to my booth and didn't buy any goddamn Romanesco. [laughs] No, she didn't want it. She was all set. Okay. She... What were you gonna say? Sorry, Daisy. 27:20 Sorry that your intern's catching strays here. [laughs] I know. I did not mean to do that. I was gonna say, uh, what else, what else do you know about your subscribers? 27:29 Like, how do you know 60% of them are in the industry? Do you do surveys? Um- No. I mean, uh, we ha- we did do a survey at the beginning, but the survey was kind of more, um, what do you want? [laughs] Mm-hmm. 27:43 So like, what, what, what kind of stories do you wanna read right now, you know? And that was back when we had, like, a readership of maybe 5,000. Um, it's, it really is an estimate. 27:51 Like, we do some data enhancement with our subscribers, you know. Like, we've, we've put it through that, and that's k- that's kind of what it is. 27:57 But I, I think that we could, like, drill down a lot deeper if we wanted to. Uh, just at this point we haven't. 28:01 So yeah, 60% is a rough estimate based on just, like, taking the email addresses and names and kind of, like, figuring out what we can know about them. 28:09 In that, uh, that rebrand write-up, you said that there was around 140,000 total subscribers? Yeah. Now it's, like, 153 maybe. 150 something. Where do they come from? Hmm. Um, a lot of it is just organic growth. 28:24 Um, but then we also, like, have had media partnerships with, like, Investigate Midwest and Fast Company, um, and then, like, do you know Knowable, Knowable Magazine? No. Uh, it's very science-driven, like, uh, 28:38 kind of all topics, uh, nature and environment. They, um, just today put a banner ad in there for us. Like, we do, we do link exchanges with, with other like-minded places. Study Hall we've used a lot- Hmm... 28:51 to kind of raise awareness. Yeah, Daisy was on the Study Hall podcast this week. I was. We should chat. Maybe there's something you could do with Derek. It feels natural. [laughs] It does. It feels natural. Um- It does. 29:02 I, uh... Y- you said that you get a lot of feedback, that this is a very vocal audience. Can you tell us more about that, the kind of thing they say, how? Yeah, what are they saying to you? 29:13 Like, okay, we did, we [laughs] just did a story on, um, tractor theft, right? Like, it was pretty straightforward. And, you know, sometimes we get these story ideas just from farmer message boards. 29:23 Like, I like to see- Mm... what people are chatting about. Um, and that was one. Is there a Hacker News for farmers? Um, [laughs] yeah, the closest thing, it's called New Ag Talk. Um- Mm-hmm. 29:33 Everyone just calls it Ag Talk, but the official thing if you look at the website is NewAgTalk, uh, one word. Mm-hmm. [laughs] And it's like, um, 29:41 it feels like it's a very pl- a place for conventional farmers, like, people who have had, been, had farms in their generation f- Yeah... in, in their family for, like, 5 to 10 generations. 29:50 And I don't know if you can actually see the post without becoming a member. Like, it's a little bit insular. It's kind of a, an exclusive- Does Farmers Only still exist? Yes. It does. 29:58 I don't know how, but- You said yes pretty quickly. I was like- [laughs]... uh- [laughs] I think that was a joke. I didn't know that was a real thing. Well, you... Thank God you thought it was a joke. 30:04 I can't even imagine the havoc you would've wrecked on there. [laughs] Yeah. I'll take it as a compliment. Do, do you know, do, do, I mean, do you know what Farmers Only is? It's a dating site. I did not. 30:11 It's a dating site, yeah, for farmers. Yeah. For farmers. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. You thought it was a joke? I thought it was a- That's a, that's a joke to you? I thought this was, like, a joke. Yeah. 30:18 [laughs] Yeah, it's a joke to me. The li- lives of farmers? [laughs] Seriously, man. Um- Ugh... I mean, anecdotally, I have heard that that site has been great for people relocating. You know, that, like- Hmm... 30:29 it's, it's really g- Like, let's say you live in a town of 300 people, and you've- Hmm... probably, like, blazed through the dating pool. 30:35 Like, it's a good way to see, oh, you know, five towns overThere's someone who actually shares my interests who I've never really met otherwise, you know [laughs] That makes sense. So like, yeah, I- Is that... 30:44 Does it extend to, like, fishing people, fisher- fishermen? I don't know. I would say surely not. Yeah, that might be... Yeah, fisher zone, maybe. As, as, as somebody from a farming family, definitely not. 30:53 Different type of- [laughs]... different type of guy. Well, he said Off-Ranch covers lobstermen, so. Hm. True. W- we do. We do. 31:00 But I think that if we were ever to, like, you know, spin off a date- dating situation ourselves, like, we would keep the, the farmers and the fishermen distinct. Hm. What would you call the fishing one? 31:09 Fisher- fishing people. What would it, um... 'Cause they already have, like, Too Many Fish in the Sea Surf and Turf. Oh my God. [laughs] That's, that sounds really dirty. 31:16 [laughs] Yeah, that's, that's- Surf and Turf could be, like, the sniffies, and you deliver- [laughs]... the guy on the farm. Oh, man. Oh, oh, oh, um, the tractor theft story. So- Brilliant... I just... 31:30 Like, basically it turns out there was, like, a rash of tractor theft in, like, northern Kentucky. That's, that's what this person was bringing up. 31:36 And I realized that it was just not something that I've ever seen addressed, a story. 31:39 Like, story ideas are just something like that, like, let's look into this, and I've got some contributing writers who are, like, great for that kind of thing. 31:45 Like, they'll have no subject matter expertise on that p- and they'll just start digging. Um- Mm... 31:50 and so one of our writers, like, started looking into it, and it turns out that it is actually for, like, the small tractor. A lot of farmers just leave their keys in the tractor. That's the num- Hm... 31:58 that's the number one reason why it's, like, an easy take. But that said, it's very difficult to get away. Like, you can't just [laughs] like, you can't just ride down the road on someone else's tractor. 32:08 So you do have to have the infrastructure to come pick it up in, like, a big semi or something like that. 32:11 So just, you know, she talked to, like, law enforcement and, you know, uh, some farmers who had actually suffered through the... 32:17 But my gosh, like, the number of people who just, like, wrote in and wanted to tell a story about, like, how 17 years ago, like, their neighbor, you know, like, had put a four-wheeler in their barn and, you know, they thought everything was safe. 32:29 It was just, like, it was anecdote after anecdote after anecdote. Like, ev- everyone had a personal story. 32:33 So that's often what it is, is kind of like, I recognize that, or I don't recognize that, that other people would write in and be like, "I've never seen theft, so I don't know if that's real." 32:40 First, real quick, are you more of a Kubota guy or a John Deere guy? Wait, there's a third one, too. I don't know what the third one is. That's the kind of guy I am. It's, it's the blue, the green, the red. 32:49 Um, but now I'm space focused. Just like Pokémon. Um- [laughs] Well, which one are you? Uh, I w- I would say John Deere. Okay. Uh, like- Classic... 32:58 I d- I, I did a Modern Farmer story in, in Iowa a long time ago, and the lady at the chamber of commerce gave me a little green John Deere tractor as a gift. Mm. Um, that's the one I'm assuming. [laughs] Oh, yes. 33:08 Have you gotten to the bottom of why, like, aliens love cows? [laughs] I feel like every time I read about an alien abduction, it's like, "And they messed with the cow." No, but that's a really good question, though. 33:19 Just saying. It's a regal beast. Who wouldn't love them? Uh, real, real quick- Maybe you could do a, an audience survey about their experiences with- With aliens... tractor theft- Come on. Come on, dudes. 33:26 I find that offensive... and alien abductions. I, as a farmer- The aliens are taking the tractors. I am offended. [laughs] If... Okay, let's- The truth is out there. Open your eyes... 33:35 um, the truth is in the field, uh, and in, and the sky. Um- [laughs]... the... Tell us about, about your writers. 33:41 Like, do you have a stable of, you know, very consistent writers where once, you know, every month you're publishing something from this person? Um, what percentage... Yeah, just tell us about your writers. 33:51 Um, okay, so I took... Like, when I first started out, I just ported over my favorite writers from The Counter, right? Mm-hmm. Like, that was the easiest way to do this. Um, and just... 33:59 I was just like, "We have this thing. We s- it's, like, wide open field. We can do whatever we want, you know. What stories, ideas do you have?" 34:06 Um, and then I put out calls for pitches for a while, um, which netted some really good people. 34:11 Um, and yeah, so I have writers who will write, like, one piece and then disappear forever, and then I have people who are maybe, like, on a monthly cadence, and then I have, like, some writers will write almost every week, too. 34:23 Um, the interesting thing, I think, is that most of them are not, like, ag background writers, e- even, or food even necessarily. Like, I have, like, one of my favorite go-to reporters does... 34:33 is mostly, like, criminal justice outside of writing for Off-Ranch. Oh. Um- What are some of the stories they've written for you? Um, she wrote the tractor theft story. There we go. That was a good... 34:42 [laughs] Um, she's in grad school right now. We should talk about that story. So she's, she's been out of the loop for a little bit. Oh, she did, um, she did a Ponzi scheme. 34:50 There was a cattle Ponzi schem- scheme that involved actual, like, people- Did she cut you in? Huh? [laughs] She, no, she didn't cut me in, but it... 34:57 Like, she talked, she talked to the North Dakota Commissioner of Agriculture, who was so... 35:01 He called her in the middle of the night just, like, upset about this, like, terrible company that was, like, bilking millions of dollars literally from cattle ranchers. It was... That's a good story. 35:10 You should check it out if you can find it. Uh, w- what about some, what are some of the other, um, writers who have a unexpected background that they bring to the work? 35:17 A l- a lot of tech writers, and that's not that surprising because, like, the ecosystem, like, I feel like I'm kind of, like, in the hybrid tech journalism world role, right? 35:26 Like, like, somebody who wrote this week was actually just, like, best friends with one of the engineers on my team. Hm. Um, and, like, I'm open to it, right? 35:33 Uh, I feel like if you can craft a solid pitch or you've got an interesting story to tell, let's just talk about, like, what the needs are, um, and give it a run. But yeah, like, she... 35:41 I don't think she'd ever written on agriculture before, um, this week. 35:45 I have more of a meta question, which is, um, you know, coming from Modern Farmer, The Counter, sort of seeing this, the arc of the farm to table era, the way that it manifested in cities like in Brooklyn and Oakland, and the way that people talked about it, but, like, 36:04 where... how has the media landscape changed along with the evolution of this beat? Like, obviously restaurant criticism today, it's very driven by social media. The critics aren't anonymous. Sort of sometimes- Hm... 36:17 it's even seen as an asset for the critic to be somebody who has built a following of their own. 36:22 We've talked a lot about Eater, like, kind of getting rid of a lot of their traditional criticism, but then hiring people who are, like, prolific Yelpers [laughs] to write. Um, 36:34 and I'm interested, like, how those shifts, like, your perspective on those shifts and what, what's next for-This beat, is it people having individual newsletters? Is it 36:49 more projects within larger organizations like Off-Range? I mean, I still... I mean, maybe I'm naive, but I still have hope [laughs] that there'll be a return to something a little more thriving in- Mm-hmm... 37:00 both, both this area of journalism and everywhere. 37:02 Um, like I end up, I think, uh, part of the reason that I've been able to work with people who don't necessarily consider food and agriculture their beat is because there are just fewer and fewer places to write in general, and it's like, okay, well, you know, you pay decently, and you'll give it a good edit, and we'll have some nice art with the story. 37:17 Like, let's, let's get into it. Um, but yeah, I mean, I think we've contracted. Like, there's very few... 37:23 Like, there are very few publications I even consider, like, competition at this point, you know, and, and nobody's doing exactly what we're doing. You know? 37:30 Like, I think that, like, some of the agriculture publications are more leaned towards the advocacy side. Like, um, there, there's more of, like, a point of view, right? Like- Mm-hmm... they're sustainability focused. 37:40 Um, and yeah, um, I don't know. You know, like I feel like I'm on a bit of an island. Like, this is, this is a good thriving, sustaining place that I am, um, and we're, we're doing well. 37:53 Um, but it feels rather bleak when you look elsewhere. Like Eater, Eater kind of hit me hard. Like, I've, I feel like- Yeah... 37:59 Eater kind of came up when I was first starting to do food writing, um, and now it's just that- You've got balance there. Yeah. [laughs] I do. And w- we actually, I mean, we do... 38:09 Writers that I admire, they get laid off, I will reach out to them, like Jaya Saxena wrote for us, a couple things for us when- Mm-hmm... she just left Eater. Um, [sighs] yeah, that's the thing too. 38:19 Like I, I, I tried, [laughs] I try to think of this as, like, a place that people could have, like, at least a, a temporary home, you know, while they're looking around for another journalism job. 38:28 Would you ever do a, a print edition? We did. Oh, you did? We, yeah. Well, shows what I know. Geez. [laughs] No, uh, we did. There is a... 38:36 When, when we were Ambrook Research, it's, it looks like a little academic journal. Daisy, did you get one when you visited the office? I don't think so. 38:41 How, how does one, if somebody's a, a listener who's interested, if I'm interested, how does one get their hand on a copy? They're pretty exclusive. Uh- Okay... I think we... 38:48 I, well, 'cause I think we only have, like, maybe 40 left. Oh. 40 or 50 left, but I could- Mm... send you two one. I think that that's, this conversation- $100 each, guys. Name your price. 38:57 [laughs] Um- I want to send my parents one. My, uh, I, I, I'm thinking of like, um, like, you know, my parents being farmers, they're early 70s. 39:04 My father was for a long time pretty technology, techno- technologically not literate, let's say. Mm-hmm. Um, he got his first smartphone maybe a year ago, maybe two years ago. Um, big magazine guy. 39:16 Dwell was his favorite for many years. Dwell. Nice. Like Spranta, um- Great magazine... got, got onto Apartamento recently. He likes that. Replaced Dwell for him. 39:24 Anyways, uh, all of which is to say, like, he is somebody who I know would love reading this stuff. 39:29 But he, until the last year or two, is somebody who would have never, ever come across it, because it's just not pa- You know, he listens to the radio and reads magazines and the newspaper. 39:39 That's, that's how he plays the game. But I imagine there's, like, a younger generation of farmers too who are, who are more online. Um, I don't really know where I'm going with this. 39:47 I, I guess, I guess the point is, it seems to me that this is something that would be really well served by a more, um, routine, uh, print cadence. Quarterly, once a year at least, something like that. 39:57 Like, this audience- Yeah... specifically would be really well served by that. I think that's a million percent true. I think it's, like, a resource issue. Like, or bandwidth more. You know, like I... 40:07 It was, it was a labor of love. Me and the creative director at Ambrook, you know, like, locked ourselves in a room in suburban Boston for a week, and just, like, you let our, let our wildest ideas just run free. 40:18 Um, and it, it's like, it's like a really nice... It's a little more, [laughs] dare I say, artistic than the website. You know? 40:25 Like, like it's, it's less straight news reporting, and more kind of like somebody meeting their f- their idol, uh, Wendell Berry, um, kind of the influential farmer thinker. Um, just, you know, like personal essays. 40:38 Uh, I, I wrote a story about how I got something really wrong once in a freelance piece about cows for The Wall Street Journal. Um, but- Was it that aliens don't love them? [laughs] No, it's that I called- [laughs]... 40:49 it's that I called, it's that I called a male, that I called a, a bull- A heifer... a cow. Oh. I called a bull a cow. Oh. Oh, that's a great story. Tell us more. That's it. It was, it was a story- That's a whole story. 41:00 How did you- No, no, no... you, you, so that was the, that's what you wrote? [laughs] "I called a bull a cow." That's what you wrote? Bull gate. [laughs] Well- That's, uh, no. Bullshit, obviously. 41:09 [clears throat] Oh, yeah. What did you call it? It was... Okay, so this was a story, it was a story on the only cow in Manhattan. I called it the, the headline- Oh, that's good... was the, the loneliest cow in Manhattan. 41:18 At the Central Park Zoo, there was one cow that was used to kind of teach kids about food systems. Mm. Right? Um, [laughs] 41:25 and basically, like p- one of the premises of the story was that it was sp- specifically, like, a dairy cow from Upstate New York. 41:31 Um, and so kids were supposed to go by, and they were like, "This is where your milk comes from," and the kids were like, "Yay. Oh, interesting." But it was, it was a guy. 41:39 It w- A, I called it a cow throughout, and all these farmers were like, "That's not a cow, that's a bull." Like, "You don't know the diff- the difference." [laughs] So pedantic. 41:45 And B, and B, kind of like the, the gotcha at the very end of this, the behind-the-scenes piece I wrote for the Off-Range story [laughs] was that, uh, bulls can't make milk. 41:56 So the entire premise of everything is that, like, this is supposed to teach them that, like, milk comes from them. But that's like, it doesn't even make sense as a story or, so. 42:03 And so The Wall Street Bull, there's two bulls. [laughs] This is the publication, The Wall Street Journal. [laughs] And it just never happened. Now you have to write another one. [laughs] Another retraction. 42:13 Jesse, thank you so much for coming on Tasteland. Um- This was a blast... we'll see you next week. 42:19 [outro music]
