Transcript 0:00 [upbeat music] Welcome back to Tasteland. I am Francis Zehrer. And I'm Daisy Alioto. And Daisy, who are we speaking with today? Today we're speaking with Julia Black. 0:16 She's a tech and business correspondent at Vanity Fair. Recent move, by the way, so excited to talk about that. 0:22 Uh, her work has been published in The New York Times, MIT Technology Review, Wired, The Verge, and many others that you would know. 0:30 Um, she formerly worked at Insider, where she broke news about powerful figures like Dave Portnoy and Elon Musk, one maybe more powerful than the other. [laughs] Who, who knows? Hard to say. 0:40 Um, she also worked at The Information, where she wrote a lot of features, investigations about the tech industry's role in shaping politics, which is extremely relevant this week, and we'll definitely get into that. 0:51 Yes. Looking forward to getting into that. Um, Daisy, w- something I have to ask you about, on Twitter the other day, you posted a picture of firemen in your apartment. What was that about? Yeah. 1:03 So I s- I heard them, like, coming up in the hallway. Like, I heard commotion that sounded like EMTs, and my upstairs neighbor's, like, a little bit elderly, so I opened the door and I was like, "Hey, is Tony okay?" 1:15 And they were like, "Tony's fine, but he thought that he smelled gas." And I was like, "Well, I didn't smell anything, but, you know, you can, you can come in." 1:25 And so, like, five guys, like, one of them holding an ax, just start traipsing- [laughs]... through, and, like, my apartment was, like, a mess, and- Traipsing even. 1:34 I just thought it was funny that there were so many of them, so I got, like... I, I was like, "Oh, I gotta get a pic of this," but I was, I was trying not to be... I was trying to be inconspicuous. Oh, yeah. 1:42 So what I ended up getting was, like, this lovely picture of, like, the back of one fireman and then, like, another fireman just appearing around the corner, which was, like, so Big West. It's not... 1:50 I don't think it's impolite. They're in your apartment. [laughs] That's true. Um, so it was, like, it was so, like, not a big issue, but I thought it was a funny photo, so. Yeah. 2:00 I mean, it, it, it piqued my interest enough to remember it a week later. It was a little... I was microdosing a little bit of drama. Um- Mm... there was no, no gas situation as far as I'm aware of. Um, I actually... 2:12 I thought you were gonna ask me about Tasteland's Industry cameo, but I guess the- [laughs]... the fireman in my apartment was more interesting. [laughs] Much more interesting. Well, okay, let's l- I... Here. 2:21 So here's the soapbox. Step on it. Industry. Okay. Well, no, I think you step on it- I haven't, by the way, I haven't even s- I have not started the new season yet. I'm behind. 2:29 Well, I think so- we should step on it together 'cause Tasteland- [laughs]... has achieved new heights. Yes. Um, something that I said in our... Was it episode seven? 2:36 Tasteland could be nominated for an Emmy if you really think about it, transit property. Yeah, guys. Tasteland, credited writer on HBO's Industry. 2:43 Um, uh, something that I said in our conversation with Mickey and Conrad, um- From a year and a half ago... in September 2024, um, was, became [laughs] became a line on Industry. 2:55 Um, and I will say, like, when I- Good on them... I wouldn't... I don't remember everything that I've ever said. I had recently reread the transcript 'cause we ran the interview ahead of the season. Mm-hmm. 3:07 And so when I... when he said- It's a little behind-the-scenes how the editorial side-... the line... works for you, listener. 3:12 Yeah, I mean, I was pointing at the screen, like, meme style, AirPods in, I was like, "Wait a minute." 3:16 [laughs] It was the perfect Easter egg because they said nothing to me about this, and I haven't even said anything directly to them, although they liked my post about it- Well, so in, in, in-... and so did the actor... 3:26 in America, your story begins when you start telling it. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. So you're welcome. Thank you. Like, I loved it. I think great artists definitely 3:37 are stealing things all the time, and I don't even consider it stolen. I think it's great, and I'm so happy- Mm... 3:42 that that was, that, uh, that Tasteland episode will, will have a, a lifetime beyond, you know, this podcast. So... As long as, as long as Industry stands and the, the, the gear [laughs] functions. Stop there. Yeah. 3:56 We've achieved immortality, guys. So this will be our last episode. [laughs] I'm just kidding. [laughs] Um, yeah, so that was super exciting. 4:04 And the other thing I wanted to tell you, I thought of you this morning, so [lip smacks] um, Dirt Books has, like, some advisors who are volunteers, and I wanted- Mm... to do something nice to them, 4:16 nice for them to thank them. For them. Nice to them. [laughs] No, to many of them. [laughs] Um, I wanted to do something nice to thank them, so I said, "Can I take you all to dinner in New York?" Mm-hmm. 4:27 And there's five of them, so there's six of us, and a couple of them are vegan or vegetarian. So my goal was, like, I'm gonna try to get a reservation at Semma- Mm... which is a one Michelin star, 4:41 uh, Southern Indian restaurant that has had- Yes... a lot of great accolades. I've never been there. In the West Village. Mm-hmm. Me neither. I did- I had a reservation once, but ended up not going. Anyways. 4:48 West or east? Oh, yeah, I guess west. It's in the West Village. And they have really good vegan and vegetarian options. Mm-hmm. So I was like, "This is my goal," right? And, um, 5:00 the reservations open, like, whatever amount of days in advance, maybe, like, 10. Oh, you're Resy sniping. 5:07 Yeah, but I ne- this is, like, the first time maybe ever that I've, like, sat on Resy and waited for nine o'clock to hit- Mm. Yeah... refresh and grab the res. Which I've talked about doing. I did a dr- Yeah. 5:17 We've talked about doing it. I did a dry run yesterday. This is how serious I was about it- [laughs]... 'cause I was like- A dry run? [laughs] ABCV is the fallback. 5:24 ABCV is, like, old faithful, lovely meal, great ambiance, but it's not as buzzy, right? Mm. And I really, like, I want this to be special, right? So I did a dry run yesterday because it's for the 11th. 5:39 The 11th didn't open until today, so yesterday- Yeah... the 10th opened. I sat on there at 9:00 AM, I refreshed and I saw, okay, how fast do I need to be? Then that was the dry run. 5:49 So then today when the 11th opened, sat refresh, did the whole thing. Um, and I got it. So I was, like, really happy- Congratulations... but I was like, "I feel like Francis," and I was like, I... 6:00 You would have to be kind of addicted to the adrenaline of doing this to do it 'cause it, like, kinda sucks and is, like, not practical at all. It does. 6:06 No, it's, it's terrible 'cause you have to take time out of your day to do it. I, I have not done that for quite some time, but- Like, I had to set alarms so I wouldn't forget, you know what I mean? Yeah. 6:14 Like-No, the- I'm excited... I, yeah, I've, I've done the alarm. I've... 6:17 There's times where it's, like, for a birthday, whether it's mine or my fiance's, where I was like, "Oh, there's, there's, like, one or two restaurants I would love to... 6:24 This is a great excuse to go," and then I'm just spending, like, two days trying to do that. Anyways, uh, yeah. I, uh, I hope you have a great time at Semma. I've been to- Thank you... Damaca, um, there at their- Okay. 6:35 Is that the sister restaurant? Yeah Yeah. Previous. Also quite good. I never went there. It's quite good. But yeah, Semma seems to be a little more posh. 6:43 Well, the other reason I was, like- Being not an Essex market, being a, it's own building, for one. [laughs] Right. 6:49 Well, I did receive an invitation from one Matt Rodbard to come back on the Taste podcast, so I feel like I need to accumulate some recent food and restaurant- Some restaurant [laughs]... 6:59 experiences and stories, 'cause I'm pretty... I'm kinda boring. I go through long periods of culinary boringness, especially- Yeah... 7:07 this, um, this weekend, where I was snowed in with, like, a bag of oranges and some sandwiches, so. Mm. Um, be- being snowed in was great. I went to the local bakery in the morning and got a loaf of bread. My f- I... 7:18 Later, my friend made split pea soup. I went over there. I made games. That's giving Michael Clayton. Mm-hmm. Great movie. Anyways, Julia is here, so let's go talk to her. 7:32 [upbeat music] You wrote three pieces on embryo selection. Um, I don't know if they were all published last year, but, like, over the last couple years certainly. I think the most recent one was in October. 7:47 I learned the term pre-implantation genetic testing for polygenic traits, which if I'm understanding this right, is essentially the scientific term for eugenics, which I guess is also a scientific term. 8:02 [laughs] But more, like, of a popular term at this point. Wow, Francis, really coming in hot. [laughs] Some would argue. Some would argue. Yes. Um, there is... It's such messy terminology. 8:13 I mean, I've had so many editors struggle with, like, "Oh, isn't there an easier way we can say it?" But, like, if you wanna be technically correct, yeah, that's what it is. You're, you're testing 8:23 the g- genes of five-day-old embryos. But yeah, pre-implantation genetic testing for polygenic [laughs] traits. [laughs] Is the only way to do that... Potentially a stupid question. 8:35 Is the only way to do that if you're doing, like, IVF and the embryo spends time outside of your body? Or do people... Can people do that if the embryo is, like, um, in... Oh, it never leaves your body. Yeah. 8:50 So definitely for, um... I mean, obviously pre-implantation refers to pre-IVF implantation. Mm-hmm. But, um, it is interesting. As a pregnant woman now, I'm having this experience of, um... 9:03 There is quite a lot of genetic testing kind of built in to- Mm... the pregnancy process that is s- standard these days. Um, at, like, 10 weeks, you do a lot of genetic testing. 9:13 So w- no one's doing that for polygenic traits- Mm... as [laughs] far as I know, which are, like, these complex, like, personality traits and rare diseases and things. 9:23 But you do get a pretty comprehensive scan for, uh, single gene disorders, like, all these things, which, I mean, basically what that means is it gives you an option to terminate a pregnancy. Mm. 9:35 But if you're, if you're testing a bunch of embryos for IVF, you get to pick the best one. So 9:43 yeah, genetic testing is happening kind of across the board at this point, but to varying degrees and with different options for what to do with it. Well, is, i- is this something, like... 9:52 Is this something accessible to normal people? From reading your work, it's... this is more of, like, the super rich are doing it. 9:58 Like, what is the spectrum of, like, this being science fiction to more, like, reality for certain groups of people? Yeah. I mean, right now it costs up to $50,000, and that's on top of IVF, which is- Mm... 10:10 already, like, 20-plus thousand dollars probably. Um, so no, I mean, it's not at all accessible. 10:17 Ob- obviously, that's kind of always the argument for technology is there's these, like, early adopters who get access to a product or a technology that is very expensive, and then it can get more funding, and then it can 10:30 get cheaper, and there's more competition, and there's more market for it, and, you know. 10:36 Like, it's funny, genetic testing itself, which, of course, like, was brought to us by the H- Human Genome Project, I don't remember the exact numbers off the top of my head, but, like, initially to test a single individual genome, it cost, like, a billion dollars worth of research, and then today you can get consumer genetic testing for, like, a couple hundred bucks. 10:57 So, you know- Is that because they're using AI- That, that does happen... as part of the sequencing process? 11:03 That's a really good question, and I've, I've, like, always kind of assumed that AI would play more of a role in all this, but A- A- AI does not seem to be, like, the breakthrough technology here. Um- Mm. 11:17 I can see, though- I think a lot of-... a startup landscape where people are gonna kind of, like, hedge on the ability to sequence your own genome at home, like, using some of these technologies. You mean... 11:29 I mean, like, Theranos- People-... type stuff for, like, genome sequencing using AI. [laughs] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's funny 'cause, like, the whole longevity- Oh, there's a will, there's a way. Yeah. It- Yeah. 11:41 [laughs] Um, there's a market for it. I mean, the Bryan Johnsons of the world and, like- Mm Mm-hmm Um, I think that, like, consumer- Somebody needs to take away her phone... 11:56 I, I don't understand the logistics of how that's working. I have, like, DM'd her, and she's liked things that I've sent- [laughs]... but never responded. Okay. She can keep her phone. 12:05 I mean, if she's, if she's vibing with you, it's fine then. [laughs] Yeah, that's what it's all about. But you're allowed to have your phone in prison if you like any of my tweets. Having my access. That's my rule. 12:14 [laughs] Yes. Thank you, Elizabeth Holmes, for your likes. Um, but no, I can't tell if I'm communicating with her lawyer or her directly- Mm... or, you know-Does she have a burner phone? 12:24 In which case surely they know about it. I don't know. I would love to tell that story. Although journalists are very- I guess with the low security thing. Yeah, exactly. She's not considered dangerous. 12:37 Maybe she should be. Uh, speaking of dangerous, Francis and I have not recorded a podcast episode since the Substack TV announcement. 12:45 Um, and I was thinking about that in the context of your story about TBPN, you know, whether Substack's gonna try to woo some of the stuff that started off as, like, Twitter native to the platform. 12:58 Um, from my perspective, there's gonna be a, a lot of competition because- Yeah... 13:03 YouTube already exists, has a lot of volume, and also recently I saw a headline that they've surpassed Reddit for certain types of searches. So that's gonna be, like, a tough thing to compete with. 13:17 But I was pretty sure when I saw that the Chernin Group invested in Substack, that this was going to be something that they were going to require them to go after, um, 'cause that's always sort of been their MO, like pushing scale really hard and competition. 13:36 I just, I don't... I'm gonna be honest, I don't really see it happening for them. I mean, it's funny that you bring up TBPN because, um, 13:46 you know, if you read my piece, like, kind of, uh, against my own best interests, [laughs] I love TBPN. Like, they totally won me over. I think they're doing a really good job, and everyone's like, "Why do you like them? 13:59 You shouldn't like them." And to put my finger on it, like, what I like is that it's very organic. These guys are clearly having fun. 14:08 They come from this world that, you know, you can't replicate the relationships they have, you can't replicate so many things that make their show watchable, and yet you've seen so many other- Mm... 14:19 business media platforms try to replicate almost, like, to a T this exact formula, and it's sad to watch. [laughs] Um, you know, they kind of called out, there was, like, seven competitors who've launched- Yeah... 14:31 like, straight up copycats, and they're not working. So yeah, I mean, I think the same kind of applies. 14:37 Like, these, like, media boardrooms are always, like, pointing at one very organic success story and being like, "Whoa, why don't we just copy/paste that?" And I don't think it tends to work. Um, yeah, I don't know. 14:53 I will not be watching [laughs] Substack TV, sorry to say. 14:56 I, uh, I've been on one Substack Live, our friend of the pod, Ben Dietz, uh, his, his SickTok show, and as somebody who rec- we're recording on Riverside right now, right? 15:07 That's the software we use, and I think, uh, quite a large portion of the podcast market uses Riverside to record. 15:13 What was weird, this was, I don't know, three months ago, something like that, what was weird about using the Substack Live app is you have to do it in the Substack app on your phone. 15:23 And, you know, I have a nice microphone here, a nice camera that I use to podcast, and then I was just kind of having to use my phone, and the lighting was weird. The audio was bad. 15:33 I'm having to use my, my, um, AirPods to, to record the audio, which, low audio quality. Everything about it was a horrible... 15:40 And, you know, obviously I always should say I do work for Beehive, so maybe I'm a little biased. But I, I, uh... [sighs] It, it was- That's gonna have to change, though. 15:49 Like, they're gonna have to choose between optimizing everyone into the app by brute force and optimizing the Substack TV product, and they're going to have to make it available on desktop. There's no way. They will. 15:59 And I think they, they have. I think they since have. Yeah. But, but it, it's a hor- it was a horrible UX for me as the recorder- Yeah... for the audience, having, having to listen to a lower quality product. 16:08 Maybe it's easier for Ben, being the guy who is h- hosting the video, right? It's very easy to just turn it on, record it, publish it. 16:15 Like, that's all kind of automated, but I think that's the wrong user to optimize for, because the Substack customer is ultimately the, the consumer, the reader, the subscriber, right? 16:25 Like, that's how they make their money. So I thought that was odd. I, I also... I mean, it's more in doing this they're trying to compete with, with YouTube, right? Like, that's- Right. 16:34 Well, according to Holiday- Why would you compete with YouTube... The Hollywood, Holiday Reporter. God. 16:37 According to The Hollywood Reporter, Netflix is much worried about, much more worried about Instagram right now, which I thought was very interesting. 'Cause they have the TV app now, too. Yeah. 16:47 That, that doesn't, so that doesn't even make sense to me, and that makes way more sense than the Substack TV app. 16:51 But, like, I don't, I, I loo- I wanna look at Instagram Reels when I'm, w- when, when I've got [laughs] things, like, that's on the TV. No, you wanna look all the time. You're, you're a admitted addict. 16:58 Okay, we, uh, we talked about that last time. Um- I mean, the other thing I would add to that is, like, I think that the best thing, like, the most successful Substacks are truly, truly a bunch of nerds. 17:11 Like, if you look at, like, the top list, like, these are not people who need to be on camera, if you will. Um, and I say that as someone who does not typically do well [laughs] on camera. 17:21 Like, I, I don't know, it just seems like the wrong... You know, like- I mean, Francis and I don't wanna be on camera... clearly people love data. And, like, look at us, we're gorgeous. [laughs] I leave it to the pros. 17:31 [laughs] Well- But yeah, like, I just, I don't know. I won't name names, but the Substackers I enjoy who also are really, like, high on the bestseller lists are not people who I think will thrive in this environment. 17:45 So I don't know. I'm a big fan of, like, staying in your lane. 17:49 [laughs] One thing, one last word on TBPN too, and you get into this in your piece, and I, I've, I think I saw a Joe Weisenthal tweet that summed it up pretty well too, maybe somebody else. 17:58 But that they're, like, you know, they may be part of this industry, invested in some of the companies that they have on, like, so meshed up in it that it could not be further from, like, journalistic objectivity, right? 18:10 But one, like, that's sort of a new norm. Like, you need both. 18:15 You, or you need, like, journalistic objectivity, but independent creators, like, that a, a- a lot of the ones I've interviewed-On my other podcast, like they talk about like the ability to like own their biases and put those like front and center in their work as like a big appeal for them in, in going independent, and a big appeal for their audience in coming for them because it's more like it's stated there's always some sort of bias. 18:36 When it's stated there, people like it. But also like they... 18:39 I think there's a quote in your piece where they say how they have a stake in the tech industry becoming a better version of itself because they're having kids and they're thinking about that, and how they want this... 18:50 They want the tech industry to be better than it is. So I don't know, I, I can't speak to who they were like before they started doing this show, and I don't watch it. 18:58 Like I'll tune in every now and then if I'm scrolling Twitter and it's on, but they seem to be becoming ever more critical and journalistic in their approach. And, and you wrote about that. Yeah. 19:07 I mean, I think if you look at the show, which is now almost a year and a half old, they've changed a lot. Um, their approach has evolved a lot. I really appreciate that they are open. 19:19 In fact, it is part of the bit that they are sell-outs. Like- Yeah... they, they're not denying that. They get these sponsorships, they are wearing the brands, like- NASCAR style... uh, yeah. 19:30 I mean, there's, you know, the TBPN hats and the... Exactly. They're, they're, um, in their F1 gear, sponsored by their own friends. 19:39 And they'll interrupt, you know, they interrupted me like 50 times to be like, "Yeah, but have you considered switching to Ramp?" [laughs] Like it's part of the bit. Mm-hmm. So I actually really appreciate that. 19:48 Meanwhile, there is another, um, competitor of theirs, a well-known like tech show, who I just learned does pay to play. Her guests pay her significant sums of money in order to appear on her podcast. Molly. 20:03 And that is n- you said it. I didn't. It's gotta be Molly. I, I know. [laughs] Well... And, um, you know, that's the kind of thing you should be transparent about. Mm-hmm. 20:14 And it ex- goes a long way to explain the way that those interviews go. And like I- I'm wearing a green rugby actually by pure coincidence. I'm wearing my most- [laughs]... 20:24 Technology Brothers-coded clothing item, which is- I could get mine out. They- You've got your shirt on... it's my high school, it's my high school field hockey rugby. 20:31 It's probably one of the oldest items of clothing I own, and I'll never get rid of it. But, um, even though my, my last name's like fading off the back. 20:38 Um, actually, as you were saying that, I started percolating on a theory, and it's like I wonder... I, I have to think about how true this might be, but I feel like if you come into 20:49 journalism in the format of opinion or interviewing, and you come in neutral, you end up more radicalized. Like they came in very neutral. 21:01 I think that they're probably getting radicalized more towards a general skepticism the more people they talk to and the more BS or book talking that they consume. 21:12 Because ultimately it's like you consume a ton of people's statements, and you start to be able to pattern match, "Wait, this is how often people are kind of like full of shit." 21:21 But if you come in with a, a certain ideology, like maybe like somebody like a Bari Weiss, think about like she was more ideological when she started out. Definitely not around stuff that I... 21:35 Most of the stuff she was more ideological around don't track with my beliefs, but I think you end up sanded down to be more neutral, um, when you come in as like a Bari. But I also think people can ping-pong. 21:48 Like Tucker Carlson, he's definitely ping-ponged between- [laughs]... those roles throughout his career. Well, he's ping-ponging between like the spirit realm and planet Earth. So- [laughs] Yeah. I mean-... 22:00 I can barely [laughs] Oh... Tucker, step away from the peptides. But I don't know- The zines help him commune with the spirits actually. 22:09 It's, it's the same thing that happens to like people who are politicians, and like once you get a certain degree of power, you... 22:17 or and you're inside the government, and you are dealing with the critics that are outside of the apparatus, it changes you because you have to see all of the roadblocks to perfection of, the perfection- Mm... 22:33 of your ideology. And like everyone now at this point anticipates it. Like Zohrab Mamdani is not going to be a radical mayor because he can't. Now he's inside the power apparatus. Mm-hmm. 22:47 I think there's a similar thing with journalists. 22:49 Like the way that you operate on the fringe versus the way that you operate when you get proximity to power is different, but I think like proximity to power doesn't necessarily mean that somebody's going to become more of a sellout. 23:02 I actually think that you can become less of a sellout if you're exposed to enough, um, like kind of enough hypocrisy and kind of end up ping-ponging back the other way. Yeah. 23:14 Maybe Bari Weiss will end out, end up libbed out after [laughs] all her proximity- Uh, not her... to power and hypocrisy. I don't know. [laughs] Not her. I mean- Are you writing about her- I-... 23:24 or have you written about her? I have not written about her. It is interesting, she did follow me, um, after I published the TBPN thing. Mm. So that was... She's the kind of person who- Does Marc Andreessen follow you? 23:37 No, but he does block me. He followed and unfollowed me real quick. But he blocks everyone. Um, I- Oh, really? Yeah. [laughs] That was not long for this world. I'm... Well, I'm curious- Yeah, he does that... 23:48 speaking of like blocking and censorship, um, what the heck is going on with TikTok? Because I'm seeing a lot of like anecdotal stuff about certain words being blocked or like, um, you know, reach being throttled. 24:00 But when I went in just as like an individual, I was like, it's really buggy right now, and that's why like- Yeah... nobody can see the videos. But like where... 24:10 Is there any sort of like concrete evidence emerging that there's a rhyme or reason to- This is in the context of, I think it was on, was it on Saturday that the ownership formally transferred over? 24:21 YeahThat sounds right It was a few days ago as we record I know it was the Saturday New York Times, uh, paper edition [laughs] Mm. [laughs] Which I still read. Um, 24:32 yeah, I, I think this is the problem with stories that, um, unfold live in real time online- Mm-hmm... on Twitter or wherever. Like, I had people asking like, "Oh, are you gonna write about this?" And, 24:45 uh, first of all, I don't love doing quick turnarounds like that, but also, I was kind of like, I don't- I- this story needs to unfold further because we just don't know. 24:52 I'm seeing now more evidence that, you know, the NFL, which normally every TikTok video they post has like six million views, had zero views on the videos they posted this weekend. So that's probably not censorship. 25:04 That actually would lend credence to the idea that this was some kind of like outage, um- Hmm. Due to the-... caused by the Trump. Mm-hmm. So like, yeah, sometimes, sometimes Occam's razor just really... 25:16 You know, it's like it's not always the conspiracy. Sometimes it's just the boring explanation, and, uh, the public has become more and more conspiracy-minded. 25:25 And I, you know, I tweeted kind of like, "Oh, I saw one creator claim-" Mm. "... that she was blocked for mentioning ICE. Has anyone else seen anything?" That's about as far as I'm willing to go in terms of- Yeah... 25:35 like taking... You know, this also happened with, um, [tsks] that like AI-generated DoorDash critique. Oh, yeah. Um, I don't know if you caught this, but like- I knew that was cap from the beginning. There was- [laughs] 25:48 I mean, but the thing about like conspiracies like that that turn out to be fake is like it's also true. There's- Mm... a ton of... 25:56 There's like a massive grain of truth to it because all the things in the post were true. Like, I've spoken to DoorDash employees. That's how the company operates. It's... 26:05 So like if something turns out to be AI-generated, it... Our perception of truth is just so- Well, and with, with the TikTok thing too-... messed up at this point. 26:12 But- It was like the stated goal of this acquisition to make, make it that, you know, China was not controlling this algorithm- Right... and that like American interests could control it. 26:23 So like whether or not they're controlling it to this precise end, like that was the goal of this acquisition, was so American interests could control TikTok. Like, it- so like- Exactly... 26:33 whether or not this is the, yeah, this is the exact permutation of that, like that's not a conspiracy. That was a stated goal. [laughs] Yeah. The broad strokes themes can be true, and the- Yeah... 26:43 specifics not, but this is why like real journalism remains so important, because y- the New York Times is never going to publish that first draft version of the story. Yeah. Mm-hmm. 26:55 They're gonna make sure that they have it airtight, and then you can rely on the fact that once it appears there, like it's confirmed. It's not- Well, yeah... speculative tweeting or [laughs] 27:06 Even last night when I saw The Atlantic publish, like that Bovino, um, was out- Mm... I was like, "Okay, who else has this?" 27:15 Like, I was waiting for somebody else to confirm it, whereas like for some people it's like if that's in The Atlantic, that is like God's truth. 27:22 And I'm at the point where it's like if it's only in one of the major newspapers- Mm... it's not God's truth yet to me. [laughs] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and some things will never- No, I mean-... 27:31 and it's never gonna be God's truth, like WMDs. You know, it's, uh, you know. [laughs] Yeah. No one's infallible, but, you know, like 27:41 I heard from a source at OpenAI last night, um, that Sam Altman had put out an internal statement about Minnesota. Mm-hmm. 27:48 This person was like willing to quote for me but wasn't willing to send screenshots, 'cause I guess OpenAI monitors those things. So I had this from one source. I went to all my other OpenAI sources. 27:59 No one is getting back to me. I was like, "Oh, I really wanna tweet this. I really wanna like put this in a story," and I just didn't, because one source who doesn't even have screenshots is not enough. 28:10 New York Times published it today. You know, it's frustrating to see. I would've loved to get that scoop, but like, you know, most... 28:17 The idea is supposed to be that like a tenured and professional journalist will not jump straight to- Yeah... going live within like- Right... one person is not enough. The important thing is that you didn't- So too bad. 28:29 [laughs]... compromise your integrity. Yeah. 28:31 And I mean, speaking of integrity, like I saw you're in the process of working on and writing about the tech lash that's happening right now in your newsletter at Vanity Fair, which is voicier than some of the work that you were able to do at The Information. 28:45 And I think, to Francis's point, like is sort of like what the media apparatus right now requires. Like the ability- Yeah... 28:52 to be able to foreground your own perspective, but a- and not hide it behind this veneer of objectivity. 28:58 But, you know, for the uninitiated, there was a lot of the right adjacent tech industry that went all in for Trump in a sort of- Yeah... 29:11 mercenary way, but primarily with the argument being around economics, being around, you know- Immigration... 29:18 wanting to be post-woke, liking certain types of immigration but not other types of immigration, depending on how well it suited them. [lips smack] And, you know, we have come... 29:29 There, I mean, there's been a lot of a moments of reckoning in this term, but the, the murder of Alex Petri was really like this breaking point where for the first time in the term we're seeing like... Not scolding. 29:43 I actually don't agree with scolding. Like, I don't agree with like publicly going to somebody and saying like, "Make a statement right now." 29:49 I think like if you want somebody to make a statement, you should have the consideration and respect to message them privately and say like, "It would be really great to see you speak on this," at the very least. Um, 30:01 but there's a dynamic that really haven't seen, um, i- in, in Trump's first term yet of people really paying attention to who is silent and viewing that silence as a complicity or at least like- Mm-hmm... 30:18 a tacit acceptance of what's happening. And I have not seen the tech industry be this loud about-... politics in a very sort of like earnest way in a long time. 30:33 And so, I mean, obviously you're writing about it, you don't have to give away everything that you're gonna write about or say. [laughs] But I'm curious, like, 30:41 what, what's different about it this time from your perspective, from what you're seeing and from the people that you're talking with? Yeah. 30:49 I mean, we will see how long any of this lasts, but it really strikes me as a notable vibe shift, um, as tired as that phrase is, [laughs] this is like the moment for it. Um, 31:04 which of course the swing to the right was also a vibe shift that turned out to be pretty short-lived. I guess this visual of Alex Pretty was so intense and triggering. 31:15 I mean, I know when I saw that video, I was like in complete shock. Um, that said, it, it is a little surprising to me that this is, this is the thing. 31:26 Um, I think that it also happens in the context of like support has been slipping around tariffs and, you know, even the markets, which as you point out, like ultimately this [laughs] was kind of a craven play for positive economics, and like the market started to get a little shaky this fall, and I think some people's faith started to flag. 31:49 Um, but yeah, you're, you're not only seeing these like public statements now from leaders in the space, including some fairly notable ones, I mean, the Anthropic CEO yesterday made a statement. 32:01 Um, none of the other AI chiefs, and as I mentioned, Sam Altman made an internal statement that was pretty wishy-washy. Um, but you know, Vinod Khosla, Reid Hoffman, all those usual suspects. 32:14 Yeah, that feels notable, and then I also have been kind of chatting with my sources on the right, um, more privately, and been pretty struck by the tone shift there. 32:26 They're kind of saying like, "We can't really stand behind this administration anymore. This isn't working. Uh, check back in 2028." [laughs] Like that's, the vibe is... 32:38 Uh, you know, for me, that New York Magazine cover story a year ago, that like the cruel kids table- Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah... 32:45 that sort of felt like the peak of this like cultural dominance of the right, and it was one of those peaks where you know it's the peak and it's [laughs] kinda like, oh, this is immediately gonna become cringe. 32:55 And so yeah, I guess like a year later, that's kinda played out. Like, the, the mood is not as celebratory. 33:05 I was even at a like right-wing party this fall, I think it was September, where it was a pretty mixed mood, you know, a lot of talk about law fair. That was kinda their main focus. Yeah. 33:18 But I was in conversations about JD Vance where people were like, "This guy is not it." [laughs] And that was- Mm-hmm... these were like true Trump believers. These were people who wanted like third Trump term, but like 33:31 JD Vance is not turning out to be this legacy prospect that he was clearly handpicked for, so yeah, the confidence is really flagging pretty quickly after like so much golden age talk and, and 33:46 so much like landslide victory. So I don't know. I think, I think for that to happen within a year is pretty striking. [laughs] Now it's like what happens for the next three years? We still have so much more. 33:59 I think unfortunately a lot of people and the internet kind of fuels this mentality, 34:06 know how to create a referendum on the status quo, but they don't know how to offer an alternate vision of the future, and the whole, like tech's whole thing is offering a compelling vision of the future, but when you really look at the benchmarks for what's been achieved in AI and other recent, um, developments, there's been some amazing scientific breakthroughs, there's been amazing like health breakthroughs- Yeah... 34:34 but they don't come really from the heart of Silicon Valley, and there is a failure to, I think there's been a failure to offer a compelling vision of the future that is like organically of Silicon Valley and these top kind of, I guess it's not Fang anymore, it's Mango, I recently learned, like these [laughs] Mango companies. 34:53 [laughs] So while that's flagging, it's like at the same time that's flagging, these really loud voices get super into politics and offering a compelling vision of the political future. 35:04 But it really was just like a referendum on Biden and the status quo, and Bidenism was never even a really a distinct thing. It was kind of just like 35:15 they kinda got sucked into a referendum on liberalism in general, and like, guess what? Liberalism's popular for a reason. The average person likes liberalism. 35:24 They just don't like certain aspects of, um, the Democratic Party, which, like- Mm-hmm... who does? [laughs] And- Yeah... I would say the same thing about the left. 35:34 Like, there are people on the left who are very good at critiquing and creating a referendum around the status quo, and that's really important, but it's not the same as being able to govern or hold power- Yeah... 35:46 or be responsible with power. And the internet [laughs] just, it, it incentivizes dissatisfaction with the status quo. 35:54 Um, but the right, the left, and the tech industry especially, since that's who we're talking about, need to get a lot- Yeah... better at actually offering substance. Yeah. 36:08 Yeah, it's funny, I don't remember much from college, but I do remember I took [laughs] a Latin American history class and I had this assignment, it was like an in-class sit-down assignment, and the professor was like, 36:22 "Summarize modern Latin American history in one sentence," and I, I, I was crowned the winner because it was something that was like, um, it's a pendulum swing between like right-wing authoritarianism and populism. 36:36 I don't know, I guess it was perfectly concise. And like what that is, is like that's like the sign of a failed state. Like America has now entered that-... 36:43 period where, yeah, we're gonna get these, like pendulum swings between right and left, and like, all that really signifies is instability. 36:52 And, you know, when everyone's a reactionary, it's true, you're not like standing for something- Yeah... you're just reacting against. And not a productive way to run a nation, as we are finding out. 37:02 So, you know, the center's starting to look [laughs] pretty good compared to- Well, and venture capital is fundamentally a reactionary business model, but the returns on those decisions are very far out, and that is almost the opposite of like what government is. 37:19 Like, or what good government- Yeah... should be. Like, good government is like decisions that are made 37:25 not as a reaction to something, that are where you see the return on [laughs] a relatively like short-term basis, and VC is the opposite. Every decision is reactionary- Yeah... 37:35 and the consequences are so far out that like I could understand why somebody who's had their brain pickled by that business model for so long just does not live in the same reality as the rest of us. But like- Yeah... 37:45 you know, for the rest of us, it's like if you can't afford your rent tomorrow or you can't like afford your groceries tomorrow, the consequences are immediate. 37:56 And that's where, obviously, that's where populism [laughs] comes from, when you have that like huge disconnect. But, um, 38:04 I do think, just to circle back, that this current backlash and discourse indicates that the roots of liberalism are deeper in 38:18 the lives of normal people and their conception of what it means to be American than the loudest voices- Yeah... would want you to believe. Mm. Yeah. 38:29 I mean, I don't know if you caught that hilarious tweet from Katie Miller, where she misunderstood Anthropic CEO Dario Amodei's usage of the term classical liberalism- [laughs]... to under- to mean wokeism. 38:42 [laughs] And it's like, yeah, I, um, clearly there's some, 38:49 some misfiring and misjudgment on behalf of the administration for how much like core values like that do matter across the political spectrum, and how much, you know, the Constitution still matters to people. 39:03 [laughs] Um- Well, and also how symbolic people are in their politics, especially the generation above us. 39:09 Like, I think there was a lot of criticism of pink pussy hats and holding up a sign or wearing a pin or putting a Ukraine flag on your house, um, from people who are like kinda Gen X and younger. 39:23 But like, I think if you are older, like those symbols really mean something to people. Mm. And I think that came out a lot around the, um, the demolition of the East Wing. 39:36 It's like that was sort of a breakthrough moment for some people, and it's like, well- Yeah... how is that, how is that your line? But a lot of people are very symbolic in their thinking. Um- Yeah... and 39:49 they don't, they haven't had their, [laughs] their brains pickled by how memetic the internet is. Mm. And like, you know, memes on the internet are kind of like the opposite of having a stable symbol. 40:00 Like, anything can mean anything. It's like Dadaism, right? Yeah. Like six seven, it's six seven. It's something that's signified- [laughs]... by itself. But for people- Yeah... 40:07 who are like of the older generation, like if somebody puts like a yellow ribbon on their tree 'cause their neighbor is overseas fighting and they want them to come home, that means something. Mm-hmm. It's a big deal. 40:20 It's not a meme. And there's a big divide there around like symbols, and I think people are realizing that there's, um, 40:30 especially like the JD Vances who've kind of embraced like full millennial cringe Dadaism, like whoever's running the Homeland Security Twitter account, they're like underestimating the stability of symbols in- Huh... 40:45 a large part of the American populace, that like- Mm... for some people, a s- like a, a, a certain visual still means something. The, the White House as a physical entity still means something. 40:57 You're talking about these- And you-... symbols in terms of like generations a little bit too, but- Yeah... 41:00 it's, it's really just about like it's, i- I think it's less about the generational divide than like the online to not online spectrum, right? The more online you are- Really good point... 41:07 the more used you are- Yes, yes... to like the, the rapid pace of images and like to the fluidity of meaning. 41:13 Whereas if you're not online, meaning is a little more rigid to you, and you're not so used to rapid proliferation of images that just kind of flash before you without, and, and you become numb to them. You're right. 41:23 It's not a perfect correlation. No, but, but it, I mean, but it's, it's part of it, right? 41:27 So it's like I'm just thinking of like my sister, who's not very online, and like I think [laughs] to her sh- symbols would mean a lot more to her than they do to me, spending my entire life looking at a screen. 41:39 [laughs] But also like what underlies those symbols, and you can't just have an American flag for the sake of an American flag. Like, it's not just a pattern that gets printed on a bikini at a barbecue. 41:49 [laughs] Like, it means something, and I, I think most people 41:54 haven't spent the time reading things like Project 2025 or Curtis Yarvin manifestos or the things that really have intellectually- Or his shitty poem in that one outlet journal. [laughs] Yeah. Like, 42:07 this fringe stuff that actually has been incredibly intellectually informative to key people in the administration, which is fundamentally anti-American, anti-Constitution. Like, like 42:22 what these documents have literally argued for is dismantling the Constitution. [laughs] Yeah. So I don't know. 42:29 It, it may seem fringe, but like if you talk to high-level administration officials, as I have, about what they've read over the last 10 years, like yeah- I saw-... there's nothing American about it. 42:42 I saw this, um, I-X article yesterday. I don't read a lot of X articles. [laughs] But I read this one. Uh, it, it was- A complete abomination. The a- [laughs] the author was presumably a young founder in Silicon Valley. 42:55 All I remember is in his bio it said, like, YC Winter '24 batch- Mm... or something like that. Mm. So presumably a young founder. But it was- Like the place for him to be... 43:02 it was th- it was this really earnest, I don't know, 900-word article about how the tech aligning themselves, or tech as an industry aligning itself with, with this administration and with right-wing politics is bad. 43:17 And I won't recount the whole thing, but basically he was making this, this pendulum argument you were talking about, Julia, where, like, this just... 43:23 Like, like he was saying, like, "I'm in tech because I am an effective accelerationist, and I believe in technological process being good for humanity, and I want to be part of that, and I wanna drive that progress, and I want to make humanity more advanced and more powerful through technology." 43:40 And i- in this very earnest way it was written, right? 43:44 And he was saying that aligning, tech aligning itself with this administration and with right-wing politics is just bad because it will then erode public trust in tech and then make the next administration... 43:57 A- again, just this reactive thing we're talking about, where then it's just gonna, like, make it so tech gets regulated into it, it, into a, a point where progress is impossible. 44:08 And I, I f- I found it sort of touching in that, like, I don't always see that sort of earnesty, especially on Twitter. Um, but yeah. 44:16 Th- th- there was this comment that was a reply to it too that framed 2020 as being Dems plus tech versus Republicans, then 2024 being Republicans plus tech versus Dems, and then that 2028 will be Republicans plus Dems versus tech, which I don't know how that pans out and how they're... 44:32 But maybe it's just populism- Huh... versus tech. 44:34 And, uh, the, the last thing [laughs] here too, do you think that people think of tech and VC as being the same thing, or do they just think of tech and VC as part of tech, like your average person who's not very online? 44:48 I think they probably should see them as the same thing. I mean, different roles in the ecosystem, but- Mm-hmm... they're, they're pretty aligned. 44:55 Though, uh, Daisy, I think your point about, like, the incentives of VC and tech are so misaligned from what the incentives of government [laughs] should be. 45:04 So, like, reason number 362 why tech should not be running the government are like- I mean, DOGE was a failure, right? Like, what did DOGE- It really was... except leaking- And that's somewhat like, again-... 45:14 social security numbers. [laughs] Yeah. Like, and I, I've spoken with people who were very pro-DOGE who- Mm... admit that it's a failure. So yeah, I mean, great. You got your year, and it's a failed experiment. 45:28 [laughs] Unfortunately, now there's three more years to pick up the pieces. I, I genuinely don't know what we do with that. But- Oh, dear... um, very striking week in terms of admission of failure so far. And either... 45:40 I mean, I, I think a lot of tech people are hoping that the administration will course-correct. You know, you have- Mm... 45:46 like Jason Calacanis out there being like, "Trump will fix this and return us to the golden age," and like, "All he has to do is fire Steven Miller." And like, sure, firing Steven Miller would be a start. 45:56 [laughs] Um, but I think part of the problem with how tech sees all this is that they're unwilling to acknowledge how intrinsically tied it all is. Mm-hmm. It's like 46:10 d- you know, people were like, "Oh," like, "Just work on AI and don't talk about politics." That's an absurd claim. Like, AI is incredibly political, could not be more political. 46:19 And I appreciated that about Daria's essay yesterday acknowledging that, like, you know, if you are concerned about democracy, like you have to be concerned about AI development. 46:30 And w- we're seeing with, like, surveillance tools, with how DOGE, like, used AI databases for its work, like tech is going to be instrumental in shaping the future. So 46:45 yeah, the argument that, like, politics should be detached and, like, tech leaders shouldn't weigh in, it's not like the same as pop stars weighing in. 46:52 [laughs] It's not like, like, you know, like, oh, a, a coalition of pop stars against ICE, like, has a very different meaning from, like, tech leaders against ICE because tech leaders are equipping ICE with the technology they use for their work. 47:06 And it's like- DOGE, the other day, Hootsuite signing a $2.3 million contract ar- around there with ICE, right? After years of saying they wouldn't do it. What is Hootsuite- Hootsuite?... gonna do for ICE? Hootsuite. 47:15 Is that still around? [laughs] Apparently. So they can schedule their tweets? [laughs] I, I gue- look, I, all I know is I s- I saw it. [laughs] Okay, I missed that one. Sorry about this. 47:24 I know Palantir- We're gonna have to fact check on that. Let me, let me, let me... Okay, I'll look it up. You know, Palantir- Yeah... 47:29 every single AI frontier lab, Google, you know, like all these companies, yeah, they have huge government contracts. Um, and they're playing more and more of a role in shaping public opinion. 47:41 How is any of that not political? It's like, yeah, I, I- One thing that I feel like I've learned in the last, what, five years is, like, 47:51 if you can't not make anybody, um, make a statement or take action in the, in the exact same way that's, like, privately meaningful to you, but if you're questioning whether it's worth saying something or doing something and it's meaningful to you, you should do it. 48:08 And I think this comes back to the simple thing. If it's meaningful to you to put a sign on your lawn, you should put a sign on your lawn. If it's meaningful to you- Yeah... 48:15 to wear a pin on your lapel, you should wear a pin. 48:17 And, like, my mother-in-law was like, "Hey, I saw this thing, like, I don't know if it's on Facebook, that, like, people are gonna go out and, like, hold a candle, like, to say that they don't agree with, um, what's going on with ICE." 48:29 And she's, she's like, "Well, I went out and I was the only one holding a candle, and I- maybe I got the time wrong, and also, like, not everyone saw this Facebook thing." 48:38 And I was like, "Well, if you, if it's meaningful to you to hold a candle, you should hold a candle." Like, I have a little- Yeah. I was like, "Well, I'll, I'll put a candle up in my window." Um-So I have these like... 48:51 I had our, like, battery-powered, um, pillar candles 'cause I had them for the storm. And I just like, I, I put it in the window, and then I was like, "You know what? 49:00 I kinda like the symbolic-ness of having a candle in the window." Yeah. And I just left it up. I've had it up for the last three days. 49:06 It's like, I like to have a candle in my window 'cause it means something to me of like, it's a sign of, like, welcome, um, and it's a sign of, like, a light in the darkness. And I think a lot of like- Yeah... 49:19 a lot of the bad discourse are online is like when people just start to attack other people's sacred cows- Mm... just because they're sacred, no matter, like, how important it might be. 49:32 Um, so, like, well, th- you shot, they shot our guy, so I'm gonna make fun of, like, your guy. And once you enter that territory, it's very hard to get out. 49:44 Um, and I think, like, you have to allow people to do things that are privately meaningful to them without it needing to be a huge, like, 49:55 movement or a referendum on saying the exact right thing or doing the exact right thing. Yeah. 50:03 Well, and a lot of tech leaders are about to learn the hard way how embarrassing it is to go along with the latest trend bec- I mean, at the end of the day, I'll always give, like, a 50:15 David Sacks more credit than, like, a Jason Calacanis or, you know, a Mark Zuckerberg or frankly right now Sam Altman. Like, David Sacks may have extreme [chuckles] views and 50:30 probably I personally do not believe what he believes, but, like, he believes it. And he's been on that side consistently, and he's fighting for it. Whereas, like, 50:42 Mark Zuckerberg, like, you know, Meta's policy changes over the years, he's just going from one side to the other and, you know, 50:51 I, I just think that ends up looking really embarrassing, and especially as those timelines of the vibe shifts are getting shorter and shorter. It's like, "Oh, you're flip-flopping every two years now?" 50:59 Like, it just goes to show there's no spine whatsoever, and, like, it's just so cynical, and, um, if you're, if you're trying to align with whoever's on top, but whoever's on top is not there for [chuckles] very long, 51:13 you're not gonna be able... Like, I don't know. It's the same with Dario. Like, he's con- been very consistent with his beliefs, and, and Anthropic 51:23 has gotten a lot of pushback in the last couple years for being, like, the woke AI company, but they stuck with it. And frankly, if you look at the business model, like, they're thriving, which 51:34 disproves this whole idea that you need to kiss the ring of the administration in order to thrive in this business environment. Like, Anthropic is currently leading in market share in enterprise LLMs. Like, they... 51:47 Cloud Code has been, like, the most viral AI product of the last year. Like, they're kinda winning, and it's like they're winning despite going against the grain of what's currently popular. So I don't know. 52:01 Be yourself is the answer. [chuckles] Um, let me say really quick, fact check this Hootsuite thing. So there's some conflicting things, but it, it's not untrue. So in 2020, they had approved a three-year contract. 52:15 Employees protested. Two employees got laid off as part of that. But then Hootsuite decided to cut the contract. Now I'm seeing some conflicting numbers, but they have signed some contract. 52:26 I'm seeing one place that says they've taken on $95,000 USD, it's a Canadian company, in contracts to conduct social media sentiment analysis for ICE. They're seeking more business. Huh. This other report is saying that 52:39 the DHS has committed 1.1 million USD and spent more than 454,000, could be worth up to nearly 2.8 million. So r- number, the numbers are a little cloudy here. I don't know who to trust. But there was- Yeah... 52:53 Hootsuite did try to partner with ICE in 2020. People protested. They pulled it, and now- Hmm... they have reneged on that. Social media sentiment tracking. Yeah. Inconsistent. 53:02 I did not know that was their service, but that's, that's a valuable service in this day and age. [chuckles] Certainly for ICE. Wow. [chuckles] Julia, thank you so much- Um... for coming on the podcast. 53:11 [chuckles] Did you have something else you wanna say? I'm sorry. [chuckles] No, I was gonna say I'm bullish on Hootsuite. Um, that's, that's how I'd like to conclude. [laughs] Oh. All right. All right. Amazing. 53:23 Um, thank you so much. It's a pleasure to talk to you. Listener, we'll see you next week. 53:30 [outro music]
