Transcript 0:00 [rock music] Mm, honey. It tastes just like it costs. 0:11 One, I'm, I am ashamed about how many minutes of it I watched, but I also wanna talk about it. Okay. 0:18 Well, I don't believe in gender essentialism, but I do deeply believe that Reels are for boys and TikToks are for girls, because I do not watch Reels. I only have them sent to me by men. See, that's interesting. 0:30 Um, I agree. I downloaded TikTok, like, two and a half years ago when I was working at a job where I had to, like, do, like, TikTok videos, Man on the Street stuff- Mm... et cetera. 0:40 Uh, but I swore I would never download it because I knew I'd get addicted to it, which I then did. Um, so then I, I deleted TikTok as soon as I didn't have to use it for work anymore. 0:49 But I started using Reels, uh, which were great then because they weren't, because they weren't great, because the algorithm kinda sucked- Mm... so I didn't get addicted. 0:58 But, but now I'm as addicted to Reels as I was to TikTok two years ago. You were doing Man on the Street interviews? I was, um- All right. Roll tape. We're gonna need [laughs]-- [laughs] No. We need to see that. 1:11 It's, it's so embarrassing. It's so bad. Um, I... The best one, the best performing one, I actually wasn't even in. Um, I was just kind of standing to the side. Well, that's even. Well, which, okay, so this is, um... 1:23 I was standing to the side, but we were doing this thing where we would go up to kids or just people, you know, in, where else but Washington Square Park. You were harassing children in the park. 1:32 We were harassing- I understand. Well, this time, um- Uh-huh... it was a, a, a Gen Z harassing fellow Gen Zs. Um, I'm just... You know, I'm, like, a, a Millennial cusp. 1:41 Um, anyways, she asked them, "What's your favorite photo on your phone?" Um, and they, this, this kid held up his phone, and it's a cover, it's a picture of the cover of Cloudy With a Chance of Meatballs, the movie. 1:54 Um, but it just says balls. And that's what he said. Mm. He's like, "It's Cloudy With a Chance of Meatballs, but it just says balls." Just says balls. Um, and it got, like, 1.4 million views within a week. 2:06 That's a Zoomer on Zoomer crime. I think the Millennial equivalent of that is, um, the Nickelback, like, look at this graph. Mm. Mm-hmm. [laughs] You know what I'm talking about? Yeah, I do. Yeah. 2:16 Well, that's what he was doing, basically. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I think, though, that it's, like, I don't know. It's... 2:23 I was rereading earlier Ryan Broderick Garbage Day essay from, uh, a couple weeks ago called The Age- Mm... of Slop. Mm-hmm. 2:32 Um, where he's, he's talking about, about all this and how much slop there is and how to be conscientious about not consuming it as much, um, or not creating it as much. Uh, I, let me read from it actually for a second. 2:44 He says, "The fix for all this seems obvious and impossible, that it has to come from us, the user, the viewer, the consumer, uh, and there's a lot of us now. 2:51 We have to be the ones to demand that we all make less, aim smaller, be more deliberate about what we consume, and find new ways of funding and distributing what we do make." 3:02 Uh, but he says too, "If, if it's going to happen, it needs to happen soon because slop is only slop when you remember that real, what real food looks like, and the anxiety we're all feeling right now is that if our slop era lasts any longer, we won't remember what real food looks like anymore." 3:19 Which I feel like is kind of the thesis of why we started this podcast. I see what you did there. Yeah, we'll be feeding you real food. Um, hope that's okay. 3:31 [laughs] Uh, well, you know, in my capacity as the CEO of a media company, um, I am doing everything that I can to combat the slop era. Um, I also have, like, called it filler. Mm-hmm. 3:48 Um- You did write a great essay about this also a few weeks ago. Yes, I did. And, well, you know, my company's called Dirt, so what's the opposite of slop? Obviously dirt. Dirt. [laughs] Yeah. [laughs] Famously. 4:02 You know... Yeah, soil. Dirt, soil. You know, it's rich. Mm-hmm. Nutrients, minerals, et cetera. Yeah. Have you been to the Earth Room? 4:08 Uh, I have been to the Earth Room I think, like, three or four times for, like, you know, 60 to 120 seconds each time. That's a lot of times. That's more than I've been. Three times? 4:22 What were you, what were you doing in there? I was, uh, you know, observing the dirt, smelling, smelling, really smelling the dirt. Actually, that's why I go there, is to smell the dirt. Yeah. 4:32 Well, okay, so last time I was there, I felt like it wasn't as fragrant as it usually was, and I was wondering if they changed, like- The formula... something about... Yeah, so [laughs] this- [laughs] 4:47 Um, I actually thought maybe it was something more about the room, that it was less humid or something. Mm. Um- Well, what, what time... When, when was this, the summer? Yeah, it was, like, a, a month ago maybe. 4:57 Is it air conditioned? It has to be air conditioned. Well, that's the thing. Then I was like, maybe last time I went, like, the air conditioning wasn't on and, like, the heat was on and it smelled different. Mm-hmm. 5:09 I think the last time I went was in the winter. Which is, yeah, very different experience. This was only my second time. Oh. So the- But now I'm like, I'm underperforming. 5:16 Every time I'm in SoHo I should be like- Just doing dirt accent... you know the cartoon with, like, the, the, um, he's, like, smelling the pie and he's just- Mm-hmm... like, floating. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. 5:23 That's like you in the Earth Room. Being summoned to the Earth Room. 5:26 Which we should say to anybody listening who doesn't know what the Earth Room is, it's just, like, a room in SoHo that would be, like, in New York, that would be, like, I don't know, a two bedroom, three bedroom apartment. 5:36 Mm-hmm. But it instead is, like, just one big open room filled with, like, dirt, like, that's, like, two or three feet high. Just a lot of dirt. Been there for 50 years. Um- I think it's such a good... 5:48 I mean, I wasn't there on a date. Um- Mm-hmm... I can't tell you what I'm d- was doing there. It'll be revealed [laughs] It'll be revealed at a future time. Um, but 5:58 I think it's, like, a great first date spot, 'cause it's like you take- Mm-hmm... somebody to SoHo.You get coffee You think you're going to Aritzia or something. I don't know, blue and green. Naming stores. I don't know. 6:08 Yeah, yeah, yeah. You think- Uniqlo... you think you're going on a first date to Aritzia. [laughs] To Uniqlo. [laughs] I'm sorry. Muji. Um Muji... 6:16 no, you go to Soho, you're like, "Let's have a coffee," and then you're like, "Oh, can I show you something?" 6:22 And then, you know, with the utmost amount of rizz, buzz into a random building and then walk up, you know, two flights of stairs and are like, "Look, darling" Mm-hmm. It's, it's dirt... 6:32 look at all I've gathered for you. It's a room full of dirt, baby. Yeah. I've been gathering this for two years- Yeah... preparing for this date. Nobody else knows about this. Yeah. 6:43 Um- They let me in here because I have a certain amount of credit card points. [laughs] Yeah. They, they let me... Yeah, the, uh, the Resy, uh, American Express- Yeah... uh, dirt, dirt reservation lounge. 6:54 Shout out, Ben- The dirt lounge... Ben Leventhal. Mm-hmm. He's definitely- Blackbird... listening. Um, okay. I guess, okay, we should talk about what this podcast is. Basically who we are. Uh, so- I mean, I guess... 7:05 I, for, for a minute and then we can get, then we can dive back into the dirt. Okay. 7:09 You know, actually I, I will say very briefly, personal lore, um, I wrote my college admissions essay about dirt, um, about how it was... 'Cause I grew up on a farm, right? So I wrote about how it was my... 7:23 We had a pile of dirt on the farm, you know, many piles of dirt, but one six foot pile of dirt. Uh, and I wrote about how it was my favorite toy growing up. 7:33 Um, and I got into three of the 10 colleges I applied for, uh, so I don't know how effective it was, but here I am today, so I don't know. Personal lore for you. All right. 7:45 I was gonna have a sarcastic reaction, but that almost made me cry 'cause I love that so much. I think that's so beautiful. Um, and did you... You went to like, you went to sort of an artsy school, right? Yeah. 7:55 I went, uh, maybe unsurprisingly, having written about dirt, I did go to a 2,500 person liberal arts college in Portland, Oregon. Yeah. Liberal arts colleges in Portland are like, "We've gotta get the dirt boy." 8:05 [laughs] Yeah. We need the dirt boy. Get him in here. [laughs] Get him in here. Um, but okay. So Tasteland is this podcast. Yeah. Um, it's starting now, July. It'll be first episode out July 31st, 2024. Mm-hmm. 8:18 Um, how did it happen? I write this newsletter, Creator Spotlight, for Beehive, um, where I write about newsletter creators from all kind of corners of the medium, um, people doing... 8:31 people making money from it, people not making money from it, people using it as a creative vehicle, people making a million dollars writing newsletters. 8:40 And I do a podcast and I interview people, um, but sometimes I want to keep the thread going. Um, so that's where we come to this, which is a co-hosted podcast. 8:50 Uh, so I think the way that we were connected was Beehive CEO, Tyler, um, you guys had talked about doing a podcast before, but he being, doing what he does, was too busy for that. Um, ouch. 9:06 Uh, but, uh, yeah, so he connected us. Yeah, he connected us. Um, we were set up on a blind podcast [laughs] date. Um, no, I think, yeah, we had one conversation. I think my concern was, like, 9:23 Creator Spotlight is so well put together, obviously, and, like, makes sense. You're spending hours doing research or highlighting aspects of the newsletter business that aren't necessarily highlighted otherwise. 9:36 And I was like, "Is this guy gonna be serious?" You know, too serious for, for moi. Did you think? Mm-hmm. No way. Well, come on. So I, I saw a picture of you. I... 9:48 It's like, I wasn't like, "This guy grew up on a farm, and he's- Yeah... gonna be able to throw down." And then I got on the phone with you and immediately I was like, "Oh, thank God, he's a hater." Mm-hmm. 10:00 My picture's also terrible. It's like I- I've got like long... My hair is much longer than it was now. I'm kinda like posed up. The picture you... It's, it's a, it's not representative of who I am today. Anyways, hater. 10:11 We had to pick a new one at the, the Earth Realm. At the Dirt Summit, yes. [laughs] Yeah. Um, but yeah, no, I... And like, like by hater, I just meant, like... 10:20 When I say hater, I don't mean somebody who never makes anything and just points at other things- Mm-hmm... and criticizes them. I mean, like, are you willing to say... 10:28 Are you willing to be the one to say, "Everyone else liked this movie and I didn't like it- To have an opinion... for such and such a reason." Yeah. Mm-hmm. 10:34 And so when I got on the phone with you, I immediately was like, "Oh, he's like very real. Like, he's going to be able to... You know, he's not gonna have to participate in this weird, like, 10:47 optimism maxing, toxic positivity- No... that really pervades a lot of the, um, well, the tech podcast space for sure. Mm-hmm. 10:57 I mean, maybe not so much the culture podcast space, but, like, what we're really trying to do is something at the intersection of those two where- Mm-hmm... we're trying to be more culturally literate, 11:11 discriminating, better curated than maybe a typical tech podcast. Yeah. I don't wanna say tech bro podcast, but I think- Well... we know who we're talking about here... no offense to any, any listeners. 11:22 Um, and but to have a little bit of a better understanding of the ins and outs of venture capital, the startup environment- Mm-hmm... 11:32 how businesses are funded and the technology that distributes culture than the average culture podcast, which understandably- Yeah... might have a pretty antagonistic relationship with 11:45 stuff at the category level, like AI at the category level, crypto at the category level. So that's what we're setting out to do, and I will say, like, so my, my job is I'm the CEO of Dirt Media. Mm-hmm. 11:59 We are a startup and a media company. We're distributed primarily through newsletter, and we cover digital culture broadly. Um, we have-And are adding more subsidiary publications. We have one called Prune about design. 12:16 Mm. I really feel like what I do editorially is also reflected in my Common App essay for college where- [laughs]... I wrote about, um, my art practice in high school, which was I did a ton of paper cutting illustration 12:33 where I would do these, like, extremely intricate scenes all cut out of paper and glued together. Like, down to, like, 12:43 you know, a candy shop where I would cut out every single individual piece of candy and the pieces of candy would be so small. I was doing it with full-size scissors, too. 12:52 The pieces of candy would be so small that I would have to be, like, balancing them on my finger nail before I would put them on the dot of glue. 12:59 And there was an image in this essay about, you know, I would find random cutouts in my carpet 'cause I had a, like, a little bit of a shag carpet. 13:08 So I was constantly doing this excavation where I would, like, find later, like, a tiny little heart or, like, a tiny little bone and it was almost like an archeological dig. Mm-hmm. 13:18 So, you know, my company is called Dirt because culture right now, digging through the slop, digging through the filler, bringing this back home, it's like an archeological dig. Yeah. 13:28 We're, like, reaching to the shag carpet and being like, "What, what of here is actually of value?" Mm-hmm. 13:34 And the things that we highlight as a business, but also the things that we and you, like our listeners, are highlighting in aggregate then become our taste. Mm-hmm. And taste as an idea, I argue, is 13:51 the most powerful idea right now in culture and in business because of the rapid shifts that we're seeing in, uh, creation and distribution right now. And some- and I think it, it is highly correlated with curation. 14:04 Mm-hmm. But, um- But wait, you use the word ta- or the phrase taste economy a lot. Yeah, yeah. Um, define that. Yeah, so, like, my thesis of the taste economy is essentially, 14:17 um, you know, when you talk about businesses, you talk about moats, which is like- Mm-hmm... your moat is the thing that prevents another company from coming and putting you out of business. The thing they don't have. 14:28 Yeah, exactly. So, you know, think about McDonald's and Burger King. Obviously these things are constantly changing, but, like, when McDonald's is like, "You know, we're gonna have the Travis Scott meal," 14:40 that means Burger King can't have the Travis Scott meal. Yeah. Burger King Cactus Jack is, is hard to imagine. Yeah. And obviously, like, the moats go way back, right? It's, like, a huge history. 14:51 It's like, do you see the golden arches and think about your childhood? 14:55 I mean, these things are very, uh, for companies as big as that, like, you kinda know what your moat is and it's impossible to separate out from nostalgia, history, American culture, 15:06 uh, [laughs] you know, memetics, whatever. Yeah. Which we all- we'll get into all of that. But with a startup it's like you're kinda defining it in real time, right? Mm-hmm. You have no history. 15:15 You have no name recognition. Um, like- Well, that's like your whole thing at the start is you're trying to build a moat. Like, you're like- Yes, exactly... you're desperately trying to build a moat as soon as possible. 15:24 Yeah. And, and I'm sort of arguing, like, when the cost of cu- uh, when the cost of creation goes to zero or what- Mm-hmm... feels like zero, or what is perceived as zero because things can be automated through AI. 15:41 Whether it's the creation of software which, look, if people aren't touching it, it's gonna be pretty mediocre, but it might be possible- Yeah... for certain tasks. Or a blog post or an art graphic. 15:53 Um, where does the value actually accrue? And if you are a business right now, you kinda have, there's, like, three possible moats, right? You can have proprietary technology, something nobody else has access to. 16:07 So, you know, we made Ozempic in a lab, and there's no generic, right? Yeah. I mean, there is a generic now, but, like, pre-generic, right? Oh, wow. 16:17 Like, that's, you know, we created the most, uh, most valuable company in Europe. Or like, you know, we're, like, toggling with LVMH for the most valuable company in Europe. It, was it? 16:29 Because- I actually didn't know that. I think so, yeah. That's crazy. I could be wrong. Yeah. Well- No, it was up there... let me fact check that. Yeah. Um, [laughs] uh, so yeah. Like, proprietary technology. 16:40 Obviously nobody else has the technology. Mm-hmm. Nobody else can makes what I make. That's my moat. Or, um, supply chain innovation or, or infrastructure access where it's like, well, I have a salt mine. 16:52 You don't have a salt mine. I have this many Nvidia chips. Yeah. You do not. So that's my moat. You just, you do not have access to the raw materials. You don't have access to the factory. 17:03 You can't drop ship what I drop ship, so you don't have the moat. Fine. Mm-hmm. Okay, so that's two. Anything outside that, I think it really comes down to taste, and some people would call it brand, storytelling. 17:15 You know, whatever you wanna call it, I think it really is... That's where the culture piece comes in. Mm-hmm. Right? Like, [laughs] if I have a salt mine, my website could be a landing page. [laughs] You know? 17:27 It doesn't, it doesn't matter. [laughs] Berkshire Hathaway I think is, like, the company everyone cites where it's like the- Yeah... the landing page is, like, GeoCities, whatever. Um, 17:37 everyone else, like, it doesn't matter if you're selling seltzer or you're selling payroll software. Mm-hmm. 17:42 Like, you gotta be out there, you know, shilling your taste, telling the best story, like, getting in people's heads. Um, acting like a marketer. Yeah. Understanding, understanding the humanities, really. 17:56 Go, you know, go G- go read your James Joyce. Yeah. Because there's, you have nothing else that somebody else can't replicate, really, until you do, like, user capture, right? Like, 'cause there is... 18:08 You can do a lock-in, right? Mm-hmm. Like, there are certain types of enterprise software like the stuff that hospitals use where it's like every doctor's using this. They can't switch. So that's another-... 18:19 moat, essentially Yeah Uh, but that's not available to a startup, right? 'Cause you're finding your user and building your community in real time. 18:25 That community becomes the moat eventually, but the way that you attract them is through your taste. Yeah. Um- But wait... or some people would say curation One th- yeah, one thing I wanna talk about on this. 18:34 So I'm thinking, like, this reminds me of a few weeks ago, uh, there was this, like, kinda tweet pile-on thing. 18:41 I, I s- I think it was somebody, I think it was, like, Willie Staley had tweeted, uh- Oh, classic Willie Staley... yeah. Classic Willie- Oh, Willie Staley involved in a Twitter pile-on... yeah. 18:49 Who, who- Who could have thought? Yes Yeah So he tweeted ab- it was the Yellowbird Hot Sauce, and he's like, "They did Graza to... Everything looks like Graza now. Like, this is Graza's fault" Oh... et cetera, et cetera. 18:57 And then people who, like, were more in, like, the consumer packaged goods industry started, like, replying. It, it's like, actually, it's the same agency who did the branding. 19:05 And, like, people were like, "Actually," or, like, you know, "Graza wasn't the first person to do squeezy bottles," whatever. 19:11 But what was interesting was, like, that it was the a- the agency and, like, that this agency has also done the branding for a bunch of other, like, CPG brands. Mm-hmm. 19:17 And then I also think of something like, um, like last decade the equivalent of this was, uh, was, uh, Gin Lane, the agency Gin Lane, which is now Pattern Brands, and they did the branding for, like, Away. Emmet. 19:28 Yeah, Emmett Shan- We should have him on. We should. Um, uh- You know Emmett too... uh, I've never- no, but, like, I've- Okay... I, I know, I know of his work. 19:35 Okay Uh, but anyways, uh, they did all these, the, the branding for all these, um, [smacks lips] startup, like, CPG startup brands, like Away- Mm-hmm... Warby Parker, Sweetgreen, whatever. Uh, and then, like, 19:46 so the reason I'm talking about this is, like, there is a moat at first where, like, this agency has this aesthetic and gives it to a brand. 19:52 But then I wonder is, like, does the agency then kind of degrade their own moat over time, over, like, a decade or whatever after, uh, by giving- Mm... all these different brands, you know, a, a similar aesthetic. 20:06 Like, there's something similar. Mm. So, like, I don't know. Do you think that, like, that agency branding moat degrades over time for, like, a, I, I don't know, the agency who did Graza or for, like, a, a Gin Lane? 20:19 Well, I think there's a distinction, right? 'Cause, like, they don't care... Once y- once you've been paid your project fee, they don't care if you succeed- Yeah... or fail as a startup really. 20:27 So, like- But which also, though, I know, uh, uh, Gi- sorry, last thing I'll say. Gin Lane, I think they got equity in a lot of the businesses they helped. Okay, so that's good 'cause you have skin in the game. 20:36 But- Mm-hmm... you can't be totally invested in... Like, when you work with that many startups, you can't be, like, totally invested- Yeah, no... in making sure that they don't all- It's not like you have 100% equity... 20:46 start to converge on a certain, like, millennial aesthetic or, like, you know, that sort of hipster Helvetica moment. Mm. 20:52 Like, you wanna do the best job that you can do, but honestly, like, a certain type of startup founder is gonna want something that looks familiar. 20:58 They might be even asking and bringing a mood board of their competitor, saying, like, "I want this, but better." So yes, they have skin in the game. But I think you don't... 21:09 For the startups, certainly they need to be concerned that their brand and storytelling's not distinct enough. Yeah For the agency, that's less of a consideration, I think, than not evolving quickly enough. Mm. Like, 21:23 to be an agency, um, the aesthetic that you have used and pioneered, even if you were the first one to come up with it, if it becomes stale, you can't sit there and be like, "Well, we were the ones to come up with this." 21:34 Like, you have to evolve. Yeah. And I think a good example of that is, like, if you think about Brat as branding. Yeah. Brat did- Was it Special Offer? I think the agency that did this. Yeah. 21:44 Brat did what Brat was supposed to do, what Brat needed to do. Whatever this agency or Charlie or the team or, you know, the stakeholders along the line of the branding of this artist comes up with next cannot be Brat. 21:58 Yeah And people who... You know, any artist that's looking at this and is, like, going to their agency and saying, like, "Do Brat, but for me," like, mistake. Failure to understand what Brat is about. Right? 22:09 Yeah, like, I mean, the first five people might get away with it. The sixth person, no, because now it's part of the slop. Mm-hmm. It's so easy to tune out. 22:18 Um, and so, you know, I think this is where the world of advertising really resembles the fine art world, where it's like you could go to a museum and point to a Picasso or, um, [smacks lips] a Rauschenberg. Mm-hmm. 22:32 We just wrote an interesting article about Rauschenberg, and say, like, "I could do that," or, "My kid could do that." And it's like, but you didn't. 22:38 Yeah If you were the 100th person to do it, yeah, it's not that impressive. Yeah Um, your kid could have made the Brat graphic. Your kid- Your kid could make the Dirt Room. [laughs] Your kid could... 22:49 Yes, your kid could absolutely- Separately... make the Earth Room, yeah. Um, yeah, give that child a Zinn, and they're locked. [laughs] I'm so sorry. I have, like... This is not mine. That's okay. Um, [laughs] uh, but 23:03 yeah, like, your, your child could do that, but they didn't. Yeah And you could do that, but you didn't. And you don't wanna be the 10th person. You wanna be the first. Mm-hmm. 23:12 Um, so I think part of the issue with slop or even with AI as a creator is, like, are we gonna see a failure to innovate? Yeah. Um, and that failure to innovate 23:27 i- is a built-in advantage for the human tastemaker because I think the human tastemaker and critic- Mm-hmm... um, 23:37 sees innovation and evolution as a virtue, um, you know, a benefit, a skill set to cultivate, where you kinda have to always be, like, burning down the last thing you did- Yeah... even if you're not literally. 23:54 Like, it's still on your website. You're still proud of it. It's part of your portfolio. But what's next? You have to forget it. Yeah Which is kind of a torturous existence, honestly. Like, I don't know. You... 24:03 That's something I feel like I fi- I find hard is, like, like, something with Creative Spotlight, like, my mantra I try to take with it is, like, consistent but not predictable 'cause, like, every week- Yeah... 24:13 right, I have to, like, interview a new person and write, like, a 1,500-word essay about who they are and why they're interesting and, like-You know, justify the per- the, justify the person's reading it, you know? 24:25 Like, that they spent their time well. Um, which honestly- Well, I think... Yeah. Go ahead. Sorry. Well, to bring it back to the startup environment, like, it's pretty challenging because startups 24:37 want to have the, a, a large total addressable market- Yeah... which means from a consumer perspective, you're seeking the median. Mm-hmm. 24:43 But when you're starting out, you need to be an outlier, so you can't be seeking the median in kind of the taste that you're presenting or the innovation that you're presenting. Mm-hmm. 24:54 But eventually you have to appeal to a broad enough people or a small group of people who are gonna pay a premium to use your product, and so you constantly have to balance, um, kind of the general interest with whatever the special sauce is. 25:11 Yeah. And if it's so new or so innovative that it's a turn-off, then you might have a problem. Mm-hmm. Well, I think so- 'Cause you're in a race against time. Like, can you- Yeah... 25:22 can you get the, the median adjusted to your outlier presentation, your outlier product, before you run out of money? Yeah. 25:33 Well, it's like a, I mean, to use, like, the metaphor of like, you know, a cult- like a culture in, like, biology class, you know. Mm-hmm. And you like, you like put the thing in the, the Petri dish, and it grows, right? 25:42 Mm-hmm. Like, I think with taste, and like what you're saying there, like the e- you wanna have a really opinionated perspective that, like, is inherently going to be small because it- Mm-hmm... 25:50 you know, it has to be, it has to be small to be opinionated, you know? To, like, have some, a compelling, new, fresh opinion. 25:57 But then, like, your goal is, like you're saying, is, like, to get, is, like, to then, like, whatever the people are who resonate with that opinion, who find it compelling, who find it new, who find it fresh, you're trying to, like, make more people find that fresh. 26:09 But it's like the conditions have to be right, right? Like in the Petri dish, it has to be, like, the right humidity, the right, I don't know, whatever gel they put in those. 26:17 Um- I mean, the right business tried two years too early is, like, not gonna work. I mean- Yeah... I, well, I, I have very complicated feelings about Uber and Airbnb, but, like, those are... 26:29 I mean, like, my, uh, one of my investors, Maya Bakai, was just on a podcast where she- Mm... talks about creating the market. Like, the market for that did not exist. Like, if you- Yeah... 26:37 went on the street, man-on-the-street interview, asked people- God... "Would you like to get in a stranger's car, um- They'll run... and have them take you where you're going for money?" 26:46 Like [laughs] "Is that interesting to you?" That, it's like, "No." Mm. "That's not interesting to me. I don't wanna stay in a stranger's house. Like, are you kidding?" Yeah. 26:53 And now it's like you can't even, we can't even really imagine, like, kinda life before that for a certain type of person. Yeah. And they're also, like, now that they're, they're the incumbent. Mm-hmm. 27:04 So they created this market, and now they're almost gonna be, like, they're gonna be their own victim of the market because we look at them and sigh. Yeah. Because- "Look at all these problems you caused," right? 27:13 I think, I think with Airbnb, that's like, especially, it's easier to talk about for me than Uber, in that, like, so many Airbnbs, you go, and it just sucks, where it's like it's not actually somebody's house. 27:22 It's not like some- a, it's, like, the landlord special, right? Mm. Where it's just, like, the m- the cheapest bed, the cheapest everything. Nobody lives here, right? Mm-hmm. Um, but then, like... 27:31 And that's what I think of when I think of Airbnb. But, like, two weeks ago, I was in Berlin, and I stayed in an Airbnb where I was like, "Oh, this person, like, actually seems like they might live here sometimes. 27:40 Like, it's clearly an Airbnb, but they might live here sometimes," and it's, like, nice. And, like, we talked to them for, like, an hour when we checked in, right? So, like, th- I think that's, that's the problem then. 27:51 And, like, it's the same with, like, the agency thing, like the degrading moat. Like, the something of, like, the, you know, that true opinionated appeal remains. But then, like, the rest of it is so diluted. 28:03 And I think that's, like, that's what the... You know, things become, things just become diluted from the original interesting thing, and that's, like, the same thing with, like, talking about Brat. 28:11 Like, the sixth person to come and ask for Brat, like, d- you know, they... I don't... I guess it's like I don't know what they want from it in this metaphorical scenario. But it's like that's not interesting. 28:23 That's not opinionated anymore. I don't know. The point is just that. Yeah. So, yeah. Well, I think one question we're gonna be asking a lot on this podcast is, like, can you scale taste? Mm. 28:31 And do you have to scale taste in order- I think maybe-... to have a viable business? No. I think, like, uh, I think, actually, I mean, yes and no. It's, it's- Well, so-... obviously a complicated issue... 28:38 we'll, we'll answer at a future date. Yeah. [laughs] We'll answer this continuously. Um- So can I ask you, like, the farm that you grew up on, um, at what scale were you operating? 28:48 Like, was it a farm that used machinery? Was it a farm that was- Yeah... just your family's hands? No, it's small. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's eight acres. Um- Mm... it's, you know, there's... 28:57 Like, it's, I think, like, um, at any given time, maybe, like, three to five people besides my parents working on it. Mm. 29:04 But it's, like, it's small, and I think that, I mean, honest- like, obviously, I think that shapes how I think about, like, taste and opinions. 29:11 And I think, like, that most of the best things don't scale, which is such a, like, startup, like, truism now too. Like, do things that don't scale. Um, but I don't know. 29:21 I, I think, I, I think it's just, like, more interesting to do things on a human scale, and there's some people who think it's way more interesting to do things on, like, the mass scale, and that's just not me. 29:29 And, like, I think it's interesting to, like, talk to those people and, like, try to understand them, um, and, you know, learn about how they think. 29:37 I, you know, I grew up, like, selling stuff at the farmers market with my parents and, like, handing somebody these tomatoes that we grew- Mm... 29:43 and that, like, I knew were so good because we grew them, and I saw every part of their life cycle, and I eat them, right? So it's like it's very easy to sell this tomato 29:54 when it's just, like, so inherently unquestionably good to me. Um, so I, [laughs] I mean, I think that's, like, really a, a, a metaphor for, like, how I think about taste and culture- cultural products. 30:09 Like, I think it's really compelling and interesting to, like, find a way to do something really good on a mass market. I think, like, in, you know, cinema is a good way to think of that. 30:17 Like, many movies can pull that off, um, because too there's, like, so much funding, et cetera. But so much of the more interesting things are this more, like, person-to-person, hand-to-hand-... these products, right? 30:31 That's so funny, 'cause, um, when Tyler and I did the deal for Dirt to acquire Prune, which was called- Mm-hmm... 30:37 Sitting Pretty at the time, Tyler lives up near Hudson, and I live, um, an hour north of the city, so we met in Rhinebeck. And, you know, he brought me, like, a bag of tomatoes from his garden- [laughs]... 30:50 which were, like, the best tomatoes ever. 30:52 So we, like, did this handshake deal where I was like, "You know, I'll give you such and such amount of money, and we'll structure it like this," and blah, blah, blah, and then he gave me a bag of tomatoes. I don't know. 31:02 That's perfect. I maybe got the better deal. I don't know. Uh-huh. Um- Were they, like, those La Hueve, you know, heirlooms, or? Yes, they were. [laughs] I, you have a picture somewhere. I'll send to you. Yeah. 31:11 They were all different colors, all different shapes, and so yeah, I mean, I would say Dirt is very much a tomato business. That's how we- Mm-hmm... do business. Yeah. [laughs] Um- Bushels of tomato. 31:21 Not even bushels of tomatoes, bags of tomatoes. It was a bag, yes. Yeah. It was a plastic bag. Mm-hmm. 31:26 Uh, okay, I wanna talk about these two reels that I was, that I was talking about earlier, um, these two Instagram creators, one who I think is so representative of, like, the slop and that I felt so ashamed of, and then the other o- okay, anyways, so this guy, this, like, slop guy. 31:41 Have you seen these things, um, on Instagram or TikTok where it's like, I get... I mean, I consume a lot of soccer content, so that's mainly where I see it. Oh. But it'll be like- Me too. Perfect... 31:51 Calaf- Calafiori to Arsenal today. Uh, anyways, um, [smacks lips] what was I gonna say? Um, Arsenal sucks. Italian- But that's fine. I s- I know you're an... Okay, well, I, uh, your husband's a Spurs fan, right? 32:00 I don't know if you are, too. Oh, wow. Um. Okay, so you remembered. I didn't remember. [laughs] Anyways, uh, okay, so where am I with this? [laughs] Okay, so these, these reels where it's, like, a list of numbers- Mm... 32:10 and there'll be, like, a, a football player's, like, uh, picture pops up, and it's like you're blind ranking them or something like that. Mm-hmm. 32:16 Um, but there's this guy who his main thing, he does a few different ones, but it's like trying to get to 9,000 goals, and there's like, you can do, like, career goals, triple goals, double goals, quadruple goals. 32:28 Um, and it's designed so that he always fails. 32:31 And, like, I ended up on, like, Saturday or Sunday, like, sitting on my couch, watching probably, like, uh, 20 minutes, half an hour of this guy's stuff, and, like, there's, like, different versions of his game, but he always fails, and he's just kind of this, like, woeful looking guy with these, like, plastic facial expressions where he's like, 32:49 he's like, "Neymar, you got Neymar." Like, it, I, I don't know. He's just always despairing, and he just, like, 32:56 is, he's such a bummer, and I c- I found myself watching, like, waiting for him to win, 'cause it's always like, oh, he gets to 8,733 goals. He fell short of 9,000. 33:05 Um, and then I started watching, and I would just skip to the end to, like, see if he wins. But he just always lost. 33:12 And I, then I blocked him, 'cause I was like, "I just wasted half an hour of my life watching this," like, falling victim to this, like, you know, slop arbitrage where he's just getting views, uh, by, like, being this, like, abject failure time after time. 33:29 Um, and so that made me mad. Huh. And I th- I think that's, like, the definition of slop. But then there's this other guy- Do you think there's something- Uh... 33:35 like, weirdly psychologically cathartic for people of, like, I need to watch this, this pathetic guy- Yeah... fail? It's like slapstick, right? 33:44 It's like, uh, the clown, uh, who, like, steps on a rake and, like, gets hit in the face. Right. Right. But then it's like, which is funny, but- Clown is, clown is more hard. Yeah, yeah, definitely more hard. 33:55 But, like, after half an hour, you know, or however long I spent, I don't know, maybe it was lo- I hope it wasn't longer. But- Yeah... it was just, like, I felt bad. 34:05 I felt bad having, like, wasted half an hour of my precious Saturday. Um, and it was, because it was so designed to, like, be binged, because he keeps losing. 34:15 And I, like, I didn't even realize I was just waiting for him to win, but, like- Mm-hmm... I kept watching 'cause I wanted to see him win, and then I looked. I pa- [laughs] 34:23 I watched dozens of this guy's videos, skipping to the end, but, you know, on some of them. Mm-hmm. He never won. Um- You know, that guy goes to the hospital, and they're like- [laughs]... 34:31 "You need to watch this reel of this guy who always loses- [laughs] He's like-... at trying to get 9,000." And he's like, "But, Doctor-" I am Razzle Dazzler... "that's me." Yeah. [laughs] Uh, okay, but wait. Sorry. 34:41 So the other guy, the other guy I wanna talk about, who at first I, I found myself displeased with, but then- Mm... actually I found really compelling, um, and it's a fitting metaphor for, for taste. 34:53 Uh, his name is Tom Tries Food, and I think he's Australian. He's just kind of- That's his full legal name, Tom Tries Food? [laughs] No, I, it's actually Tom Lawson. 35:01 It's like that old, um, do you remember that commercial that was like, "Bob had a baby. It's a boy," where he gets it in- No... on the collect call? I don't. Okay, so it's a... We have time. Okay. Yeah. 35:11 So the commercial's like, I think it was AT&T. I'm not sure. Like, you know, you call somebody collect, and they're like, "It's a call from this person. Do you accept?" And then they have to either pay or you pay. 35:21 Oh, yeah. So this person s- says that his name is Bob Had a Baby, It's a Boy, and then just, like, hangs up, because that's their, like, there's, like, call from. Yeah. And then the transmission. 35:31 So anyway, I was like, Tom Tries Food. That's... Wait, this is a... Wait, but this is a commercial. Why is it, like, is he, is he just- I don't know. I think they were advertising their rates were lower or something. 35:41 There, okay, that's what it is. Like, oh, you don't have to call collect. You just say it. Weird shit. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay, I get it. 35:46 Um, okay, anyways, this guy, Tom Tries Food, he, his, he's like this just, like, skinny guy with a mullet, nice smile, Australian. Okay. Um, and his whole thing is he has a food phobia. 35:59 So each video, he's like, "Today, I'm gonna try coffee for the first time." Um, and he, he must get- That's a really good accent. Yeah. Oh, thank you. 36:06 He'll try, like, he'll try these foods, and I, I'm, I'm, at first I'm like, oh, that's so weird that he, like, doesn't like a cookie. Like, he's, like, cringing at it. Um, but then I watch one where it's like, 36:17 "Here's h- here's my taco recipe." 36:21 Um, and his taco, his taco recipe is, like, he just takes a hard shell taco, breaks it in half, puts some unheated up canned beans on it, and then some ketchup, and eats itAnd exactly, exactly. Uh, and then I... 36:37 There's a few others where he's doing, like, his recipes, and it's all this kind of, like, really sad thing. But then, like, the point is that, like, okay, that's his ta- his taste is slop. 36:47 Um, b- but he has, like, some food phobia, whatever. 36:49 Uh, but then, like, I've started finding it so admirable that he, like, is trying these things, where he's, like, trying, like, Malaysian food, and it's too spicy for him. 36:59 And he, like, he takes a, you know, a bite, and he's like, "Ugh, it's a- it's awful." Uh, but then he, like... I don't know. I- the point being this, like, 37:10 this act of, like, creating your own taste and, like, exploring your taste and, like, pushing against, like, your preconceived notions of tastes that are, like, so deeply entrenched, where he, uh, he must be in his mid to late 20s and, like, you know, 37:23 eats cold beans on a chip and calls it a taco, and that's his dinner. Um, so I guess what I'm getting at is, like, it's interesting and compelling to, like, push your own taste- Mm-hmm... 37:35 and, like, go try to try new things. Yeah. And that's what he's doing, whereas, like, the other guy was just doing, like, attention arbitrage. Right. I mean, taste means there's a, like, human stakes- Yeah... 37:46 at some point. You might be really far removed from them. Like, I think, you know, if, if taste to you or your experience of taste is getting, like, a starter pack meme on, like, Essence's Instagram page- Yeah... 37:58 like, you're not gonna feel a lot of human stakes in that. Mm-hmm. But, um- Because that's already- Yeah... like, sublimated a few times. Exactly, sublimated. Mm-hmm. 38:07 But, you know, with this other guy, like, there's really no layer between you and his phobia or you and his, like, weird habits. Um- Mm-hmm... and in a sense he's performing them for you. 38:17 But you- you're feeling more of a sense of humanity from the thing that initially repelled you. Yeah. And I think a good critic, um, 38:28 is directing t- people towards stuff that's, like, gonna maybe initially repel you- Yeah... but if you're able to go through- Learn the contours of it... 38:38 yeah, go through some experience of it, it's gonna be ultimately more edifying whether you like it or not. Mm-hmm. 'Cause taste is not as binary as I liked this or I didn't like it. Yeah. 38:50 So this, this guy, too, he has now, like, 9,500 followers on Instagram. I think when I started s- uh, seeing his reels, there were, like, 7,000. 38:59 So do you think, like, I don't know, if he keeps gr- you know, soon it won't be the full long number. It'll just say K at the end, right? So I'm wondering, like- Mm... though, as he grows... 39:08 So, like, the other, the slop guy I was talking about with, like, the terrible soccer reels, um, he has, like, 160,000 on Instagram, and so clearly he's, like, leaned into it because it kept working, right? 39:21 So I wonder with this guy, like, this Tom Tries Food guy, he's so earnest, and there's, like, a sweetness to it. Uh, like, he... There's one where he's trying Guinness. He's not a big drinker. Mm. 39:31 So he tries a, a, an alcohol-free [laughs] Guinness, uh, which, you know, everyo- everyone's drinking Guinness these days. I love my Guinness. I hated it when I first tried it. Whatever. 39:42 Uh, but it's, it's like the angle's, like, from right below him, and he's sipping it, and he's like, "Oh, this is awful." But you hear his friends, he's, like, looking at his friends out of, out of the... 39:51 Off-camera, he's, like, looking at them, they're laughing. He's like, "You like this?" Uh, but, um, [smacks lips] no offense to any Australians listening. But I don't know. Full, full offense from me. 40:01 Oh, full offense from you. Um- But yeah, I guess earnestness- No, I'm kidding... I don't know. I... Earnestness is, uh, earnestness is a beautiful quality. I think- Mm... 40:09 we've had some writing in Dirt recently, especially about, um, the literary community and subcultures of book publishing- Mm... 40:18 where people are really still trying to figure out the spectrum between earnestness and irony, especially in stuff that's, like, would be considered, like, an internet novel or- Yeah... 40:26 you know, novels that are sort of like- Your M- You're My First Novels or whatever, Honor Levy. Yeah, exactly. In our, uh, Greta Rainbow's piece about Honor Levy's new book, where she's not- Mm... 40:36 just talking about Honor Levy's book. She's talking about this kind of post-post alt lit- Yeah... era. 12 years after Taipei. Exactly. See, this is why you [laughs] and I have to be on a podcast together. Mm-hmm. 40:50 We have the same references. Um, and you would never know from our LinkedIn photos. Um- No. No, Lord. [laughs] So yeah, shout out, Tao Lin. Mm-hmm. Um, I hope your cats are doing well. 41:03 Please stop burying cheese in your yard. [laughs] Um, [laughs] anyway, um, where was I going with this? Oh, yeah, like, the earnestness and irony spectrum. Yeah. Like, that's part of taste, too, right? Um- Mm-hmm. 41:16 I, I think some people are turned off by earnestness. My hot take is if you're turned off by earnestness, you, um- Hate yourself... have fear... Yeah, you fear the shame of earnestness in yourself. 41:26 Um, it's difficult to witness it in others, but prob- probably, Francis, I don't wanna psychoanalyze you, but it's possible that you have some sort of fear of failure in yourself that made the other guy- Oh, shit... 41:37 ultimately more repellent to you. I know. Yeah. I... 41:41 Wait, so this, this earnesty irony thing, um, when I was in college, and, you know, everyone's like, it's Portland, Oregon, in the 2010s, and everyone- It's Portland, Jerry. Forget it. Yeah. 41:53 And well, yeah, uh, it's, it's Southeast. Um, ev- anyways, people are liking things ironically, right? Mm. And I, at a certain point, I was like, "Well, does, does that exist?" 42:02 Like, can you actually like something ironically? Like, or at a certain... Like, maybe you can at first. Mm. Like, maybe you're listening to, I don't know, whatever, like, song that is, like, trendy. 42:14 Uh, and maybe at first you're like, "Oh, I, I, you know, I ironically like that." 42:17 And maybe this was just me, but I, like, don't know if you can, like, like something ironically in the sense that people talk about liking something ironically, or at least did, you know, other 19-year-olds did when I was 19. 42:28 Like, is, does that exist, or can you only like something earnestly, and if you think you like it ironically, you're just, like, hiding some fear from yourself? 42:36 I would say because we live in an attention economy where so many things are competing for attention, if you like something ironically, you are investing time and attention in it more so than things that you claim to like. 42:48 Then you, you have, like, you have a stake in it, right? Yeah. Like, 42:54 if you're making that attention investment, even if you're making that attenntion- attention investment ironically, it's sort of like what people talk about with, like, revealed preferences. Like- Yeah... 43:03 you're revealing something about yourself. It's like going on five dates with a guy and being like, "I really hate this guy. I'm just doing it for the story," and it's like, date six- [laughs]... you're in love. Yeah. 43:13 Right? Like- What are you doing? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I think this is probably a good place to end our first episode. Yeah. 43:20 If you've listened to 45 minutes of this, you probably like it, or however long this episode is. You love it. You're all in. Yeah. We'll see you next week. You love it. We'll see you next week on Wednesday. Thanks. 43:30 [upbeat music] It takes two to blanket fort.
