Transcript 0:00 [rock music] It tastes just like it costs. Welcome back to Tasteland. I am your co-host, Francis Stira. And I'm Daisy Alera. 0:17 And Happy New Year, Daisy. Thank you. Happy 2025. Um- Mm-hmm... no better way to start off the year than with a low stakes Tasteland episode, 'cause we are continuing our mailbag questions. Mm-hmm. 0:30 Um- Welcome back to the post office. You know, this, this may be its last year, so let's enjoy this mailbag idea as long as we can. Ugh, I can't even think about it. 0:38 And as you might guess- I don't know if I made it that-... this was pre-recorded, so, you know, if we're missing anything major in the world news- Sorry... 0:46 um, you know, the world does slow down over the holidays, though. I don't know if you've noticed. [laughs] Wow, I actually had not- Yeah... notice that. 0:54 Yeah, nothing major ever happens because then journalists would have to work on Christmas. Yeah. 1:01 You know, you know, I believe it was Lenin who said, "There are podcasts where, um, a lot happens, and there are podcasts [laughs] where not much happens." Wow. Tom, Tom, do you believe that? You got that in there. 1:13 You got that in there. Tom, don't delete that. Um- Oh, my God, he never does. He always humiliates us... well, speaking of... Oh, see, you're saying Lenin. Lenin. 1:21 But speaking of the other Lennon, I don't know if we've ever been over this- Which-... but, like, who's your favorite Beatle? Um, it's, it's, uh... 1:29 Well, if you asked me this as a kid, it would be Ringo, but I think as I've matured, it's more George Harrison. It's obviously George. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm glad we got that- Interesting... out of the way. Yeah. 1:40 Um, should we start with this question from Abby? Yes, we should. Okay. So Abby asks... 1:46 Abby had read this, um, blog post, It's Not You: Ozempic Is Making Us Smoke, But At Least We're Being Honest, and she wanted to know our take on smoking, basically. Is smoking cool again? Why? Why is it cool again? 1:59 Do we smoke? Will it get more common in 2025? Um, I'll say this, smoking is always and never cool. [laughs] I thought you were just gonna say, "Smoking kills." Um- Well, it does... I... 2:16 So I'm not sure about- So does everything, though... the causation versus correlation between Ozempic and smoking. Yeah. Um, both obviously, uh, are appetite suppressants. Mm-hmm. 2:26 Um, although Ozempic, I mean, it suppresses your ability to eat. I don't know. People still get hungry. Um- You wouldn't know. No, I didn't, but should. Um, smoking, I don't smoke. Um, like, I'm not a smoker. Mm-hmm. 2:42 And I don't vape. Um, and despite the fact that we've joked about Zen a lot on this podcast- Like, a lot, huh?... I've only done Zen a few times. 2:51 And the last time, um, it made my heart speed up a lot, and I didn't like that. Yeah. But, um, I will have, like, a social cigarette- Mm-hmm... um, at a party. Yeah. And sometimes, like, if there's a period where... 3:07 There was a period one summer where my husband and I were staying in Carroll Gardens, and we hosted a lot of parties. And- Did you smoke inside? No. No, it wasn't our apartment. Mm-hmm. 3:16 That would've been very frowned upon. Um, but just, like, if you're hosting, you just buy a box of cigarettes, like, kind of, like, at the beginning of the summer, and then, like- I like that... 3:25 they just kind of get used. Like, you just give them out. Wait, when you, when you say a box, do you mean a carton or...? [laughs] Yeah, a carton. Yeah. Okay, yeah. Yes. You can tell I don't smoke. Yeah. 3:32 And, like, I also just have, like, no, no strong opinion on it. So, like, if I have to go in and say something, I just say blue American Spirits. Mm. That's a classic. So yeah. And then, like, that... 3:43 But that box can just, like, sit around, and then I have no impulse to, like, smoke- Hmm. That's chic... all of them. Yeah. Um, so definitely not an addictive thing, at least for me, in that regard. 3:58 [laughs] It's not my relationship to it, but, um, I will say, like, if I have had... I'm also not a big drinker, but if I had, like, a couple drinks- Yeah... and I smell one, it's like the pie on the windowsill. Yeah. 4:11 You know what I mean? Yeah. I'm just, like, following it. Um, so- I'm s- I'm similar these days. Yeah. I, I, I do not want a sober cig, and if I smell cig when I'm sober, I, I hate it. Mm-hmm. But every weekend... 4:25 Tonight as we record this- Mm-hmm... um, I'm going to a friend's birthday dinner. Wine will be drunk. Mm-hmm. Guarantee I'll smoke probably three cigarettes tonight. 4:36 Um- You know, it's hard being the only woman with the correct relationship to... person even, like, the correct relationship to drugs and alcohol, but, like- Yeah... somebody has to do it. Somebody has to do it. It's... 4:46 On this podcast, it's not me. Uh, I... My, I'm kinda- Why isn't it you? Do you feel like- Well, let me say, I'm a non-practicing smoker now. Mm-hmm. Um, I've been, I've been smoking on and off for, uh, 11 years or so. 5:00 I hated cigarettes. I thought that cigarettes were disgusting- Mm... when I was a teenager. Um, still do. Um, but then I started smoking... I'll abbreviate a history here. 5:10 I started smoking in, uh, freshman year of college, sophomore year of college, really. Mm. 5:14 Freshman a little bit, but then sophomore was when I started buying packs, because my roommate smoked, and we would go to the, the DSA, the designated smoking area, and I kept bumming from him. 5:22 Oh, not the Democratic Socialist of America. The... [laughs] Yeah. And he was like, "You, you, you gotta stop bumming. You have to buy your own." Mm. So I did. 5:29 My peak of smoking was when I was a dishwasher, when I was... dishwasher/prep cook when I was 22. I got up to a pack, half a pack a day- Mm... of yellow spirits. Um, which yellow spirits 'cause they last longer. 5:41 I got to the point where I could smoke two on a, you know, little break from dishwashing within 10 minutes. Um, and then- Well, you have to. That's the only way to take breaks when you work- Exactly... 5:50 in the service industry. That's how you justify it. Yeah. Yeah. Um, these days I haven't bought a pack for, like, a year or so, but- Mm... 5:57 I, [laughs] I bu- I bum a l- I bum a, a pack's worth probably over the course of a month or so from friends. Um, a lot of my friends do smoke.And so I, I like the, like, drunk cigarette. I think it's... Here's what... 6:10 Here, you know, to take it away from the personal back to, like, more the trend idea, it's, it comes back to this, like, frictionless culture- Mm-hmm... we've talked about. 6:17 Cigarettes are cool in as much as they introduce friction to your life. Mm-hmm. Right? Mm-hmm. Like, it's, it's hard to smoke. They, they smell. 6:24 Like, you have to go outside to do it unless you, you know, are in Europe or something. Mm-hmm. Um, and, uh, and they, and they could kill you. 6:32 It's like literally the smoke is, you know, the, the friction of the smoke in your lungs compared to, like, a vape. Um, so I think if cigarettes are cool, what's cool about them is they're, that they're a high friction, 6:44 um, consumable. Well, the funniest thing about buying cigarettes is when it's, like, so impulsive that you have to buy a BIC lighter at the same time. [laughs] Yeah. More bodegas should have, uh, matches for you to take. 7:00 Oh, you prefer to light yours with a match? No, I prefer to light it with a, with a lighter, but I'm just- Oh, because the matches would be free... and then they, yeah. 7:06 So you could just take one, but of course they, they want to make a profit on this, so obviously that's hard. Oh, another branding opportunity gone to waste. Yeah. Who has the best matchbooks in the city? Uh, Ernesto's. 7:15 Easy, easy answer. Ernesto's. Why? They are so nice. They're luxurious. Mm-hmm. They're like these kind of, um, one, for one, instead of, like, a double layered thing, they're kind of, like, just wide. 7:26 It's all 20 laid out. They're, they're red. Um, they light really well and burn really efficiently. I've never... You know, there's, there's only, like, a few matchbook templates. 7:37 I'd, I've never seen a matchbook like Ernesto's. Mm. Look them up. Just g- I don't know if you can Google it, whatever. Go to their- I'm Googling it... um, Instagram. I'm looking it up and I'm Googling it. 7:45 Yeah, she's looking it up. She's Go- what is this, a case song? Look it up, boy. She's looking it up. [laughs] She's Googling it now. Um, yeah, really luxurious matches. Oh, you can get a framed one on Etsy. A framed? 7:57 It's only $100. Is that what you want for Christmas? What? A f- specifically of these matches? Yeah. Come on, you can buy anything on Etsy. That's- That's like, oh, you know- And is this, like-... 8:07 'cause if you're like-... a restaurant?... my, you know, my partner and I, that's, like, where our first date was, let me get- Yeah... a framed one- True, true, true, true, true... for her for Christmas. 8:16 True, true, true, true, true. Not me, somebody else. Um, well, I don't know why this is coming to mind, but, like, seven years ago, eight years ago even, ah, maybe more- [laughs]... 8:28 um, I went to Llama Inn when it was like, had just opened. Is that the one- It was pretty cool... in Williamsburg or the one in the West Village? It was Williamsburg. 8:37 Yeah, 'cause they've got, like, a different- Arg- Argentinian steakhouse... same thing. Is that what it's considered? No, it's, um, it's not Argen- it's a Nikkei cuisine. Um, it's Peruvian Japanese. Oh, okay. Wow. Yeah. 8:47 Tom, cut that. [laughs] It was a while ago. In my defense, it was a while ago. Anyway, they had, like, these hot pink matchbooks with llamas on them- Mm... and I don't know why they're sticking out in my mind. 8:56 I think probably I stole maybe about 20 of them and used them- Yeah... for a very long time. Okay. Should we move on from smoking? Yeah, we can move on from smoking. Should we, should we stub this? 9:05 [laughs] We could stub this. Um- Stub this out... Colin sent in a pretty hefty question. Yeah. 9:11 Um, Colin wants to know what are some media that, other media that he should be consuming that informs our worldview and interests, specifically, like, podcasts and newsletters, but it could apply to other as well. 9:24 Such as cigarettes. So this question made me sort of self-conscious 'cause it, it made me realize that, like, my information diet is not that great right now. Um- I, I had a similar feeling. 9:35 I do consume a lot of information. I think I'm still getting a lot of it from Twitter, despite the fact that it's not- Me too. Yeah... functioning that well. I think I do have some Sub Stack fatigue, but- Yeah... 9:49 you know, if you were talking about, like, what actually informs my worldview versus what I actually read, that's, it's not the same question. Mm. That's true. Right? And in terms of things that I read, like, 10:00 every day or really wanna read every one, there's, there's very few. So I really like The Fence, which is a- Mm... magazine out of London. I think I've talked about them before. Yeah. 10:12 I follow them on Twitter, but I've never read anything they've put out. Yeah, I mean, I've, think I read not, maybe not every newsletter. 10:18 Actually, we syndicated from them, and, um, there was an essay about getting divorced that made our reader's choice list for Dirt- Mm... that was actually a syndication from The Fence, which was pretty cool. Nice. 10:30 Um, Sic, S-I-C, which is Ben Dietz's. Ben Dietz, you're on, you're on the pod. [laughs] Link curation. Um, I just think it's very well curated. I discover a lot of stuff there. 10:41 Can we, wait, can we talk about that for a second? 'Cause I, I, I open every issue he sends, but I'm like... And I'll read, I'll read the first bit, but it's, like, overwhelming for me how many links he puts in. 10:52 And I know he's, like, talked about this. Yeah. He, he actually has reduced the amount, um- Mm-hmm... in the past few months. But it's like I, it's almost like, it's just so over... 11:01 This brings us back full circle to the completionist, completist thing. Like, I'm somebody who, you know, like, likes to click every link or whatever. It's, I don't obviously that, but sometimes- Yeah... 11:10 it's like let me just, like... It's like when you, like, you know, close your eyes and throw a dart at a map. Yeah. That's kind of how I, how his newsletter is for me- You're feeling, like-... 11:17 where it's like, let me just click one thing... subtle pressure. Um- No, but not even the pressure. Yeah. 11:20 It's like there's so much where it's like I have to choose not to feel the pressure, and you're just like, "Whatever, I'll check out this link." I would say I skim pretty quickly. 11:28 I will say, like, I- It's so impressive how he's able to bring that all together though. It's great. Like, so many links. 11:33 And he has scouts, and I always like to, like, the first thing I do is check and see if Dirt's linked. [laughs] But, um- You were this week... I've gotten very good at, 11:45 I think people, people with taste are good at figuring out what they're interested and not interested in, like that discernment, but not necessarily quickly. Yeah. 11:56 I think the difference between me and somebody else who, like, works in something that's, like, taste-making is, like, I'm fast. Mm-hmm. 12:03 I, like, within the first two sentences of a pitch, I can tell if I'm gonna commission it. 12:07 Within the first, like, few notes of a song, I can tell if I like itUm, I can, like, read that and say, "Okay, this, I wanna read this, I wanna read this, I wanna read this, and nothing else." Yeah. And I don't know. 12:19 I wouldn't say being fast is good because obviously you miss things, but I feel like there are people who are decisive and there's people who are discerning. Mm-hmm. But 12:32 right now, like, I think in order to operate, like, effectively in media, you actually have to be decisive and discerning- Yeah... just because of the sheer amount of information. 12:41 And that's something, like, that I'm trying to cultivate. Um, but I don't know that that necessarily comes through in my information diet. I think I need to reflect a little bit. 12:50 I also read Feed Me, which is Emily Sandberg's newsletter every day. I read mostly every issue of The Sociology of Business by Anna Andjelic. 12:59 Um, and then there's a couple of more literary newsletters that I read every issue, one by, um, a writer named Laurie Stone and the other one by Charlotte Shane. But that's like... 13:10 I think what tripped me up about this is, like, worldview. [laughs] Yeah. 'Cause there's- C- well, 'cause your- Yeah... it's not that your worldview is being f- newly formed every day and every time you read. 13:19 Like, for me, when I think of, like, the formation of my worldview, it's... it still is very rooted in, like, you know, things I read in college and stuff, and it's not so much now. 13:28 There are things that, like, manicure it and, like, tune it slightly, but, um, w- I don't know. I- And your worldview could just as easily be represented by, like, what you don't read and what- Yeah... you tune out. Mm. 13:39 That's true. I would say, though- Which is a lot... a couple, like, when I was trying to think of newsletters I read every issue of, there's not so many. Like, I, I... 13:48 There's so many newsletters that I open and read part of or, like- Mm... that I'll read every third issue, whatever. Um, but one, like, Ryan Broderick's Garbage Day, I, I j- I actually tend to read all of that one. 14:00 Um, Taylor Lorenz's User Mag and Rachel Karten's Linkin' Bio are two I really respect but, like, I'll... I won't always read all of. Mm. Especially with, like, Taylor's, because similar to Ryan Broderick's, it's like... 14:11 Or, like, Max Read or... I can name... keep naming names. There's so many people that, like, are generally covering the same things but, like, from a slightly different perspective and, like, they're... 14:19 Some- one person's covering it the day of, the next person's the next, et cetera. So, like, that, I get kind of bogged down and like I don't need to read all this. Um, but those are a few. 14:28 One that I really like that I, I found because he, I think, subscribed to Creator Spotlight and, like, replied to the welcome email, Ryan Rigby's Push to Talk. Mm. 14:38 Um, he's this guy who works in, like, video game marketing, and he, he just recently, like a month or so ago, got hired by Andreessen Horowitz. Now he works for them. But it's, like, a weekly thing where it... 14:51 usually about video game marketing or something, but he also writes more about, like, content on the internet and, like, kind of some of the similar stuff that I cover and am interested in with Creator Spotlight about, like, gatekeeping and algorithms, whatever. 15:04 Um, and I like it because it is kind of like this, like, he's really smart, he's a good writer, and it is a bit of this personal blog type thing. 15:10 And, but I'm always impressed how it's like every week he's put out this really great essay, and I never hear other people talking about it, so I'm like, "This is... I like this because I'm... 15:19 it's not just the same thing that everybody else is reading about and tweeting about." Um, so shout out to him. I would recommend Ryan Rigby's Push to Talk newsletter. Podcasts that inform my worldview, I don't know. 15:31 Um, like, the one podcast that, like, I listen to, like, in, like, a work sense is the Colin and Samir show. I think they- Mm... do a good job of, like, doing this kind of, like, creator research that I also do. 15:43 They've been doing it for much longer, and they're probably better at it. Um, I- I'd say TrueAnon. I do really like TrueAnon. 15:51 It was the first podcast I actually listened to a lot in 2020, 20- 2020 when I started listening to podcasts. And I don't listen to it so much anymore. Will, like, listen to it, like, on, on road trips. 16:00 Emma and I will listen it, to it together. But I just, I really... I think they're such, such... It's so funny. They're really good researchers. Um, I do often learn things from them. 16:12 I've been off podcasts, but you know that I am a fan of How I'm Done. You're on this one. Me too. I'm on this one. I still listen to a lot of How I'm Done. Um, and I- But not as much these days... 16:21 it, it also depends on the guest, you know? Mm-hmm. I mean, if I'm, like, not... If I'm going through a period of time where I'm not listening to a lot of podcasts, like- Yeah... 16:29 I think when I'm driving, I go between wanting to listen to podcasts, not li- wanting to listen to music. Um, then I'll- Yeah... just go by guest. But I did- Yeah... run into Chris Black recently. I was having 16:40 drinks with my friend Olive Leatherwood, who's- Mm... a very, uh- Wow, that's a great... Olive Leatherwood is a great name. Olive is a PR powerhouse. She's ex-Condé Nast. How could you not be a name like that? And, um, 16:54 you know, she's friends with Chris. Anyway, I was telling her that I had emailed Chris about something, and as the words Chris Black were coming out of my mouth, he walked in and sat down at the table next to us. 17:03 Oh my God. Where were you? What restaurant was this? Which is like, why... Now I understand why people who live in New York are running into each other all the time. Um, Corner Bar. Oh, nice. Yeah. 17:10 So, um, that was funny. And she was like, "Did you, like, did he summon you? Like, how did that even work?" Um, but yeah, I, I've been off the podcast bandwagon. 17:22 But I did listen to, um, Ben Dietz's, uh, sick podcast with Michael Miraflor. I, that's... I've been mean- I've had that, I have that open in a tab. Yeah. I've been meaning to. 17:31 I think they did address, uh, the Jaguar [laughs] ad campaign. Yeah. He was, he was, he was... Yeah, Michael was talking about it a lot on Twitter. He had some good opinions about it. Well, I don't know. We... 17:41 You and I got into this a little bit on the Creator Spotlight episode I did with you that should release around the time this releases, maybe after. It will be out a few days later than this, yeah. Yeah. 17:48 Um, but yeah, we're in a bit of a primordial soup moment. Um- I lo- I'm gonna... I love the primordial soup thing. And- Listen to the Creator Spotlight episode with Daisy in a few days. You'll know. 17:58 Sometimes, like, also I'm just really focused on my own output, and I'm not absorbing as much information. Um, and I guess it's, it's good not to go too far in either direction. Mm-hmm. Um, I don't like to be reactive. 18:13 I don't like to be derivative. But-It is good to have access to the way other people think, and I think, like, for maybe this year I wanted more of that to come from books. Um- 100% agree. Yeah. Good. 18:29 I, I've been like... I'm a big believer in, like, yeah, you should look at, like, what other people are doing and, like, 18:34 in whatever it is that you're doing, but you shouldn't spend too much time doing that, lest you, like, kind of... You know, when you stand on the edge of, like, a cliff and you wanna, like, lean over and, and fall over. 18:43 Like, that's what happens if you, like, are just looking what other people are doing and you're like, "I just wanna do, do that," and then you start just kind of not having original thoughts, or I know personally. 18:53 Um, yeah, I've been, I've definitely been prioritizing reading books this year. Well, this morning, um, [laughs] before I got on this podcast... We're pre-recording, so we've been, we've been out for a bit. 19:06 Um, but at 9:00 AM this morning, the day we recorded, I interviewed Colette Shade about her new essay collection, Y2K. Um- Tell me about it. I don't know anything about this. Okay. 19:15 So it's, like, a combination of a collection of personal essays and sort of like a decade book in the style of Chuck Klosterman's 90s. 19:23 It looks at, like, Y2K through various cultural touchstones as, like, jumping off points to, you know, like, what was the real aesthetic and value system that ran through that time period and how did it affect her coming of age. 19:37 Um, everything from, like, the Starbucks Frappuccino to the introduction of the SUV. Um, I really enjoyed it. And one of the things I was talking about with her is this sort of relates to information diet. 19:50 I, this morning [laughs] even before I did that, woke up at 6:00 AM to do Dirt's year in review and, um, you know, just going through everything that happened over the last year, I was like, "Oh my gosh, I forgot about some of this stuff." 20:05 And it was fully consuming at the time, and I don't think I necessarily forgot about it because it wasn't interesting, and our readers probably remember and experience things that we did differently than I remember and experience them. 20:19 But I think I was asking her, "Do you have the same thing with your book?" Because you, you finish a book or an essay, writing it, and then you can't look... There's a period where you just can't look at it. 20:29 But then you come back to it and you're like... You're looking at it from some distance and you're like, "Wow, this is pretty good," but you're also- You're like, "Oh, I wrote this"... 20:35 on some level like, "I actually don't remember doing this." "I forgot." Like, the person who did this was, like, a different person. Mm-hmm. And that was three months ago. [laughs] Um, so it's funny, like, what... 20:49 You know, what information that you actually retain and sticks with you and what of your own output sticks with you- Yeah... um, is shocking, and that's like... I mean, part of it's the nature of memory, but... 20:59 I really like that. No, this is, um... I... This reminds me of something when I was preparing for the Josh Sitterella episode, I read, uh, an essay of his where he was talking about how, like, 21:10 you know, 10 years ago when he and his friends were doing jogging and, like, the, the, the bread koozie whatever, and they were just, like, messing around making silly images in their studio and, like, having beers. 21:20 Like, he was doing that, and then he was doing the more serious, like, photography-driven art, like, where he was doing shows about it and whatever. 21:27 And he's like, looking back it's like, "Me fucking around with my friends and making these silly things was actually more important and more, like, influential to the arc of my life and my career than the more serious photography stuff." 21:37 And it was kind of, like, framed as giving advice to younger artists of, like, you know, don't, like... Just do the stuff, participate i- in it. You don't know, like, what later on will be what's more important. 21:49 Um, and I- Here's some... Oh, sorry. No, no, yeah. My last thing is just like- Yeah... 21:53 that's kinda what you're saying with, like, the writing where it's like I'll go back and, like, read something I wrote a couple years ago. I'm like, "Wow, that was really good," and I, like, didn't think it was so good. 22:02 Um, I don't know. The distance... Love having distance against my own work. So I wrote this piece, um, I don't know what year it actually published. 22:12 It was originally supposed to be for Lapham's Quarterly, but- Mm-hmm... I, like... They wanted a more research intensive thing. I ended up publishing it in, like, this food blog that I don't even remember the name of. 22:21 Doesn't exist anymore. Um, and- Me either. November 2019 I got an email by a, uh... from a woman named Lenore who really liked the piece. 22:31 And the piece was called Consider the Lemon, and it was about the process of the upkeep of Joseph Beuys' Capri Battery, which is basically, like, an organic real lemon with a light bulb plugged into it. Yeah. 22:44 And Lenore emailed me in 2019 about it. I actually rarely get fan mail. At the time I was really touched and I said, "Thank you." Um, literally... This is November 2019. 22:56 Literally November 2024 Lenore just emailed me again, said- Wow... "It's five years later." Wow. "Um, the article's not online anymore. I was telling my friend about it. Can you send it to me?" Wow. 23:06 And I had to go back into my Google Docs and be like, "So I think this is the final draft." 23:10 And I'm not sure what they were talking about, but if I had to guess, it was around the time, um, they auctioned off Maurizio Cattelan's, uh, banana- The banana... taped to a wall, and a lot of people were like, "Wait. 23:20 How often is the banana changed?" Yeah. 23:23 And it was one of those, like, difficult art questions, which is why Capri Battery was so interesting to me because I talked to people who curated it about where they buy the lemons, the credentials for it. 23:33 Like, you know, does it come from the grocery store near the museum, and, like, when is it in season, and where do these lemons come from? Yeah. Do they come from Mexico? Whatever. Anyway, 23:43 you could ask all the same questions about Maurizio Cattelan's banana piece and, um, I don't know if that's why Lenore reached out. I didn't ask her, but I did send back the best draft of it that I had. Um- Yeah... 23:57 you know, it wasn't even on Wayback Machine and it took me a really long time to even remember what the original blog was called. All of which is, like, a long way of saying, like, 24:06 is that the most memorable thing I've ever written to me? Yeah. No. I mean, probably not. But it was really significant to somebody who reached out five years later about it. 24:19 Um, and, like-And also, like, highlighted the fact that actually there's no archive of it, or I have the archive of it. Mm-hmm. 24:28 And I don't know, that's, those, that type of interaction, like, to me is very memorable- Definitely memorable, yeah... because I have so little feedback. 24:37 I don't think people understand, I've been talking about this a lot recently. People don't understand that, like, Twitter was a really big feedback mechanism for- Comment section of the internet... 24:47 cultural criticism, and the, yeah, the type of digital media work. It was never a big source of traffic, but it was a big source of feedback. 24:55 The changes that have happened on Twitter have, like, sort of removed that feedback loop. It's really not an effective way to understand how our work is resonating with our audience. Mm-hmm. 25:03 Um, but the way that people experience newsletters, some people will reply to a newsletter and say, "I really liked this one," most people don't. Yeah. 25:10 And so right now, like, other than quantitative analytics, I actually don't really know how the work that we put out through Dirt is landing with our readers in real time until they tell us or unless they tell us. 25:23 And so when we did the Readers' Choice Awards, some of the things that resonated with people, I was like, "Oh yeah, that makes sense that that was the most popular piece." 25:33 Other things I was like, "Wow, I, I wouldn't have thought that this would have stuck with somebody so intensely that they would consider it, like, you know, the biggest mood shift they had reading something this year." 25:46 And so that's, like, an ongoing problem for me, and I think, like, I do think it's an ongoing problem even for people who are on Substack that have that, like, notes feature. Yeah, in the comments section. 25:56 Like, I know Brandon Taylor wr- recently, like, he was leaving Substack because he found that feature to be really overwhelming and not really helpful to his experience of his audience. 26:04 And then, like, Substack reached out and I guess, like, turned it off for him. Huh. Um, but that's, like, not, to me that's not a good enough reason to be on Substack with all of the drawbacks. 26:14 And so, yeah, I, like, I've been wondering how much to say, like, whether to say in a newsletter, like, "By the way, like, we don't know what you think- Yeah... unless you tell us." 26:26 Wait, I, so I mean, I, I very much relate to this. Like, I get a couple of, anywhere from, like, two to, like, 12, rarely 12, um, like, thoughtful responses when I send out Heard or Spotlight and there's, like, 26:39 this will be on, like, 90,000 opens. You know, who knows how many people are actually reading it. Yeah. But, like, and it's so... When I do get those replies, it's so nice. 26:46 Um, when I interviewed earlier this year Andrew Huang, who's this, like, big YouTuber, and I asked him, like, "Well, what advice would you give to, you know, anybody, people creating in any medium on the internet?" 26:54 He was like, "Always tell people, like, in the video, like, 'Remember to subscribe.' Like, always just say that." 27:01 Like, he's, he's like, "There's been so many times where I'm watching something and then, like, later on I'm like, 'What was that?' 27:05 And I don't remember because I didn't subscribe because they didn't tell me to subscribe, but when they do I do it." 27:10 And I think this is similar with, like, you have, like, you have to put in, like, that CTA to s- like, comment on this piece or reply to this piece. 27:18 And, like, the last time I did that I got more replies and more thoughtful replies than usual. And, like, 'cause I read so many, you know, I read so much every day and I rarely comment and I rarely reply. 27:28 And I've been trying to make myself do it more because it's like, well, if I want people to do this I should do it too and, like, feel what this experience is. 27:34 Um, but that is the thing about email is, like, you know, especially 'cause when people do reply it's just a one-to-one reply so other people don't see it, so it's not, like, encouraging that, the social action, right? 27:44 Um- Well, we also have Discord. Yeah. Our Discord Watering Hole, and there's about 2,000 people in there. Um, not 2,000 active people but- Yeah... we get some good feedback there. 27:52 Well, a lot of times people tell the writer and they don't tell me, which is good. It's, like, definitely if you're gonna tell somebody that you enjoyed the work, tell the writer. 28:00 Um, but depending on how close I am to the writer, sometimes the writer trickles back to me and they're like, "Oh my gosh," you know? Yeah. 28:07 Like, uh, Michelle Santiago Cortés was on a panel for LUXE magazine and she's like, "People have been coming up to me telling me they loved my essay about my Sanrio machete." 28:15 And I was like, oh wow, like, I would not have known that, um, till it came up- Yeah... in, like, the Reader's Choice at the end of the year. 28:22 Um, but her and I, you know, have a close relationship and we text almost every day. So, um, you know, I'm glad people told the writer, but if the writer doesn't tell me I'm like, "Hmm." 28:32 [laughs] Guess that was a terrible [laughs] guess, yeah. No, I never think it was terrible. Not terrible. Um- But it's like, guess nobody cared that mu- c- 'cause you still see the open rate anyways. 28:41 Yes, always see the open rate, yeah. Yeah. We should, we should move on to another question. Yeah, we should. Um- Um.. What's the next one? Well, so we have a [laughs] series of questions from Madeline that are, um, 28:52 or Madeline, I apologize if I'm getting it wrong. These are very synesthetic questions. Yeah. Um, and I enjoyed thinking about these. So- Me too... um, they asked wha... Okay, I'm just gonna list them off. Yeah. Yeah. 29:04 So the greenest book we've read this year, the purplest movie, orangest podcast, and then a song that we would consider to be, like, dirty brown. Um, so I spent some time thinking through this this morning. Um, 29:20 I, as you know, read a lot of Joe Brainard this year, and I- Yeah... feel like his- It was even mentioned in your New York Times [laughs] profile that you did. Oh my God, yeah. 29:29 So I read, yeah, so I read his collected writings and then I also read, just came out, um, a collection of his letters. Um, and we excerpted a couple of them in Dirt. 29:40 So I consider this to be a very green book because he, he's often, like, lounging in his, the backyard of friends' homes, like in- Mm-hmm... um, like, the Hamptons or Vermont. 29:50 So and, like, it's reflected in his writing or letters. He'll be like, "I'm sunning myself." So that, I would say, like, greenest book was, like, Joe Brainard. Yeah. 29:59 Um, purplest movie, Megalopolis, because I consider- I still need to see it. I still need to see it... purple to [laughs] you gotta see it. It's a very royal color, it's a very maximalist color, and this movie is, like, 30:09 just, it's everything. It's maximalism- Mm-hmm... dialed to the greatest extent. And we had a great conversation with, uh, David Rudnick about that if you didn't- Oh, that was so... Listen to the episode, yeah. Yeah. 30:20 So good. Definitely listen to that episode. Um, I feel like this is the orangest podcast. Oh, I agree with you. Um, maybe because of our art. [laughs] Definitely 'cause of the art. That's part of it. 30:29 Yeah.Well, speaking of Chuck Cl- Chuck Klosterman and How Long Gone, unless I'm remembering incorrectly, I feel like their interview with him starts off with some color theory. 30:38 He talks about orange being his favorite color, and orange- Yeah... is supposed to represent, like, never being satisfied. And I was like, "Well, that's interesting," 'cause orange is one of my favorite colors. 30:48 And actually right now I'm sitting... 'Cause I'm recording in the kitchen today. I don't know if you can see, Francis, but- I can't... I'll have to pick it up. Um, I have a set of Thonet chairs that are orange. 30:57 Oh, that's nice. And I got a very good deal on a set of four, maybe I think because they are orange, and I have a lot of orange in my home. Mm-hmm. Um, and Thonet chairs are a very beautifully designed chair. 31:07 Not very comfortable. Do you see this orange here? No, I can't see. You gotta shift. Oh, I've got a, I've got a little H- Heath bud vase there. There you go. There. Oh, yeah. 31:15 So yeah, we're two people that are never satisfied. Um, and then I chose for the dirty brown song, I was listening to producer-singer named Sega Bodega. Oh, mm-hmm. Familiar. 31:30 Um, one of their songs, Dear Teeth, was one of my favorites of the year. But as I was looking through this morning, I realized they also did a song called Cicada featuring Arca, which is very- Mm... 31:40 on brand for me, and they have a song called Dirt. [laughs] Um, they also have a 2020 compilation or 2024 compilation of covers I think they started doing in 2020- Mm-hmm... um, that are really amazing and unique. 31:53 Like, they covered White Flag by Dido, um- Love that... Cool by Gwen Stefani, and then, like, Mazzy Star's Fade Into You in, like, a very unique way. Yeah. Um, and some more songs that I'm forgetting about. 32:03 Oh, and Teardrop by Massive Attack, which... I mean, that's a song that just cannot possibly be improved upon. But, um- Yeah... yeah, those are... That's- Okay... sort of my color theory. [laughs] That was good. 32:13 I'll do mine. 32:14 Um, for the greenest book, I'm gonna go with, we've talked about this a bit on the pod, I'm gonna go with Triumph of the Yuppies: America, the '80s, and the Creation of an Unequal Nation by Tom McGrath, 'cause it's about money. 32:28 Purely because it's about money. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It wasn't the best book I read this year, but greenest just made me think of that. 32:31 They should be paying you for the amount of marketing you've done for that book- [laughs] They should... at this point on this podcast. They should. 32:36 But, um, best, my best, my favorite books I've read this year, fiction was Martyr by Kaveh Akbar. Oh, yeah. And so really good. I loved it. 32:45 Um, and then nonfiction was Dirt by Bill Buford, which we've also talked about on the podcast. [laughs] We've also talked about. Um- Um, I need to read that. You should. You have to read it. We've... 32:54 Did we talk about Among the Bugs? Um, I'll, I'll give you an... We have, yeah. Okay. Which was the first one I read. I read that one, like, nine years ago, so also so good. Movies, the purplest movie. 33:04 [laughs] I, of course, went back through my Letterboxd to remember what I watched this year. Mm. Classic. There's kind of... I'm gonna mention three movies for purplest. Okay. They could all be this. 33:12 Um, La Camera, we've been talking about that- Mm-hmm... already. That one is just... The, the purpleness of, like, the, the otherworldly, the kind of mystical thing I think really fits for that one. 33:22 Um, but I'm also gonna say Punch-Drunk Love, which I'd never seen before this year, and it's probably my favorite movie I watched this year. Mm. It's just so good, and, like, I w- it's so beautifully colorful. 33:34 It's just, like, I don't know who the cinematographer was on that, but it's, it's just- I've never seen that... it's just such a good movie. You have to see it. It's so good, and it's a tight 90. Okay. 33:41 Um- Love a tight 90. Mm-hmm. And then last one, this one, like, also... Okay. [laughs] I guess purple-ish. Red Rooms. Are you familiar with this movie? Mm. No. It's, um- Is this an 1824 joint? 33:55 No, I don't think it's 1824. It's, like, a... I think it was 2023, but it's a Québécois movie, and it's, like, kind of about, like, internet violence, internet extremism, and, like- Oh... 34:05 being numb to violence on the internet and that kind of thing. Um, but that's one that definitely sticks with me for being just, like... I, I mean, I, I don't think I'd ever watched any French-Canadian movies before. 34:16 Um, so maybe that, that... it stands out for that. But, um, yeah. Lasting, lasting impact on me. Um, brownest, dirtiest. 34:25 The dirtiest song, I'm gonna go with one I've been listening to on repeat a lot recently, which is Stella Duende Mix by Mirror System from 2005- Hold up. Hold up.... 34:36 which is one that the Apple Music- I gotta add this to my favorites... algorithm, uh, gave me. It's really good. Um, it... I think... Yeah, I think dirtiest... 34:46 When I was, you know, trying, looking through my songs, dirtiest song, dirtiest brown song, that one really fit. Again, kind of the art probably influencing that, but also the vibe. Um, 34:57 but another one that's, like, didn't quite... Like, when I was just thinking of, like, favorite songs this year, but one I've liked a lot is Better Way to Live by, uh, Kneecap featuring Grean Chatten from Fontaines DC. 35:11 Mm. If there's a better way to live, I gotta have it. [laughs] So good. Um, podcast. Okay, wait. You still beat me on that one. Okay. It is really good. You gotta, you gotta listen. I'm favoriting this one too. Good. 35:20 [laughs] Um, orangest podcast, I don't know. When I try to think of, like... 'Cause so mu- so much of my podcast listening is so ephemeral, you know? Um, weekly thi- Like, my main podcast is, like, 35:34 a soccer podcast that comes out three times a week. 35:36 But I'm gonna say the most lasting piece of podcast I listened to this year was TrueAnon's five-part piece on Synanon, um, which those episodes are, like, a, a couple years old, I think. 35:46 But it's just, like, such good narrative research podcasting about, like, this group Synanon from the '50s, out of which comes, like, this kind of, like, fucked-up, like, immersive, abusive, those, like, therapy programs where they send kids out in the desert that, like- Oh, yeah... 36:02 are really just abuse and, like, uh, Alcoholics Anonymous. Really dark, really good podcast series. Well, last order of business, we have a question from your fiancé. Ah, yes. That is, uh, what, what sucks the most? 36:19 I'm gonna say when I read this I thought about [sighs] Elon Musk- Mm-hmm... and his Twitter presence. I blocked him on Twitter this year because I just was like- Did that work? Yeah. I, I don't see it. I, I just, I... 36:30 You know, and people will quote tweet something or whatever, and then I'll sometimes click view. But I was just likeI've-- That's actually... 36:38 Oh, this is with- our previous episode, things that are under-hyped, blocking on social media. I've started doing this on Instagram too. I spend too much time on Instagram Reels. Mm. 36:46 And if I keep getting something where I'm just like, "This is a negative presence in my life, I need to stop seeing these," I block. Mm. And so I do-- I've been doing that a bit on Twitter too. 36:55 So Elon's account, I just, I just... It's al- I'm already gonna read about him and what he's doing and etcetera in like, in Read Max or on Garbage- in Garbage Day or whatever, right? So it's like I just don't need to... 37:09 I can see a little less. That's right. And sucks the most for me. I would say what sucks the most is the passage of time and the non-passage of time. [chuckles] Okay. Uh, explain. 37:20 The passage of time sucks when you are having a good experience or, you know, enjoying your life, and the finiteness of that experience is revealed by the passage of time. 37:38 Yeah. Um, but [chuckles] when you experience something that you want to create distance from, the non-passage of time is an issue, right? Yeah. 37:49 Because there are certain things that really can only be resolved with the passage of time. And so I think what sucks is you rarely get the passage of time that you want. 37:59 I guess we all get the passage of time that we deserve. That we deserve. Well, you know, I think I quoted this either at the beginning of this episode or last episode. 38:06 Uh, you know, Lenin when he said- [chuckles] It was this episode. It was this episode. [laughs] Um, you know, there are, uh, decades where nothing happens, and there are weeks where decades happen. Ain't that the truth. 38:18 I think that's kinda what you're talking about there. I will say... Oh, one more thing I wanna add to kinda Madeleine's, Madeleine's, uh- Mm-hmm... greenhouse book, whatever questions. 38:27 She didn't ask this, but kind of, you know, your least favorite ongoing segment that I do on this podcast is where I talk about Instagram Reels I watch. So I wanna give- Tony K. 38:36 I knew you were gonna say something about Tony K. I wanna give my, my best Instagram Reel account of the year, and my worst one. Fine. Best is at Taku, T-A-K-U, Taku Woodcraft. He's this Japanese, um, 38:51 carpenter, woodcrafter. Has a hu- 1.5 million followers. If you read his description, his pro- bio says, "No words, no music, no face. That's my policy." 39:01 And it's just the, the most amazing, perfect videos where it'll say like, "Reel number seven hundred and seventy-three" or whatever, where he's just like, again, no face whatever, just a close-up of the wood. 39:10 It's just like, "Here's how I, I figured out a way to make this specific, like, joinery joint thing," and he just does it. And it's like, "Wow, this is so beautiful." This is good content. Mm. This is good to watch. 39:22 It's like somebody practicing a craft at the highest level, just like thirty seconds of it. It's the opposite of filler. Opposite of filler. Um, the, the worst is kind of two candidates. 39:34 One is like a sec- one of those, like, kind of like secondhand clips industry kind of things where it's this guy, I don't really know who he is, Luke Belmar. 39:42 He's one of these, like, hustle type bros where he's like, like one of the segments I'll often get is he's like, "Bro, I was at Tate's house last night," and like, I knew, like speaking of like Andrew Tristan Tate, whatever, he's like, "I knew he liked Johnny Walker, so I brought him the bottle of Johnny Walker." 39:55 Like, you're not watching enough, you're not reading enough books on sale. Like, it's just like so noxious. Um, anyways, that's less interesting. But- Blocked. Blocked. The other guy- [chuckles]... 40:05 that I have yet to block, 'cause it s- fascinates me a little bit, is the Schooner Scorer. Mm. Are you familiar with this guy? Nope. Good. Um, so he's this like... I guess you would describe him as Tory. 40:16 This very Tory British man. Um, skinny. He's always wearing like the Barber jacket or similar. Um, and he, like, skids up to like some bar on a, on a lime bike. Could be, he could be in London, as he usually is. 40:29 Could be in New York. Could be on safari somewhere on the African continent. Um, but he basically comes up, and he's like handed a beer, and the cameraman is doing all this like zooming in and out and shaking it. 40:40 And he'll, he just talks so fast, and he's like... And he'll, he'll take a bit of a sip of the beer. So a schooner I guess is like a ten ounce or so glass of beer. Mm. 40:47 And he'll, so he'll take a sip, so it gets down to there. He's like, he'll describe the taste. He's like, "One sip, one schooner. Let's see the score." 40:53 And then he'll chug it, and then it's like the music kicks in, and it's like the camera's just like going like so hectic, and then he talks about it. And I'm, I'm, I'm transfixed. I'm like so fascinated. 41:04 Um, but I, I hate it too. It's like such slop that just is like, like drilling into my brain. Um- Yeah, I really hate that. Yeah. Wow. Yeah, it's terrible. Anything else we need to cover in this New Year's Day episode? 41:18 Um, well, I forgot to mention something that I think is underrated- Mm. Please... which is when dogs have eyebrows that are really just a dot. [laughs] They, they do have that. And it's like the little bump. 41:27 It's like a little horn almost. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I do love that. That's such a nice thing for dogs. More of that please in 2025. [chuckles] More dog eyebrows 2024. [laughs] What is th- what is this meep bullshit? 41:37 [laughs] Ew. Why would you say ma- why would you say that to me? [laughs] Oh, it's, I thought that was meep. Uh, meep is the new twee. No. Well, oh, meep? Meep. No way. No, we're not doing meep. 41:51 [laughs] No meep discourse? We're not doing meep. Okay. No. Whatever. What- Is it called Meep Land or is it called Taste Land? [laughs] It's called Taste Land. It is. And this has been Taste Land. See you next week. 42:04 See you next week. Thank you. [upbeat music] It tastes just like it costs. Ready. 42:19 It tastes just like it costs
