Transcript 0:00 [upbeat music] Welcome back to Tasteland. I am your co-host, Francis Seer. And I'm Daisy Alioto. How's it going today, Daisy? It's going really well. Um, it's February. 0:17 It's not January anymore. Thank God. And, yeah, and thank God. You know, that's one thing that we can be grateful for. [laughs] Um, okay. One funny thing I wanna talk about is call it my college mascot. 0:31 They're renaming the college, changing the college mascot, and they sent out a survey last week. Mm-hmm. So, like, for context, I went to Lewis & Clark College. 0:40 Um, and of course, Lewis and Clark, problematic guys, uh, perhaps famously. Um, and the, the mascot for, for however long, I don't know, it used to be an all women's college, by the way, like, 100 years ago, then co-ed. 0:56 Anyways, m- I don't know, I don't know what the mascot was back then, but the mascot for when I was there and however long before was the dog on the Lewis and Clark, um, expedition, which was a black la- or a Newfoundland named Seaman. 1:09 Um, which- His name was what? Uh, S-E-A-M-A-N. Okay. Um. Okay, okay, okay. Seaman. [laughs] Keep going, keep going. Yeah, Seaman. Keep going. 1:18 You know, very funny to, to generations of colle- generations of college students. But, um, they're changing it, uh, because of woke, I believe. Um- How did this survive anything? [laughs] I don't know. 1:29 [laughs] I don't know. Uh, but they gave us the opportunity to submit three ideas for new mascots with a, a hundred words of justification or so. Um- I mean, keep Seaman. [laughs] Just change the, uh, the suit. 1:43 Change the suit. [laughs] Okay. Well, okay. [laughs] Yeah. [laughs] Ch- please change the suit. I hope the suit has been changed. Um- [laughs] I want you to rate my three ideas that I submitted. Oh, I'm about to. One... 1:52 So it's in Portland. It's in Portland. Yeah, I know. One is, um, Hill. Not Hills, Hill. Portland's a city of hills. Uh, it's up there on Palatine Hill, so just a hill. Okay. 2:05 I- I figure the hill is a strong thing, great for sports... I rate that very low. [laughs] Very low. Okay, okay. Um, here, here's, here's my second one. [laughs] Forest. Also that's- [laughs] These are terrible ideas. 2:19 [laughs] Is that one or two Rs? Uh, it's, it's... Fuck. You've caught me out. It's one R. It's one R, 'cause that's what a forest is. Forrest Gump. The two, two Rs is the name. Um, but again, it's in the forest. 2:30 I think a forest is a strong thing. It's made of many trees, just like a sports team, made of many strong people. [laughs] Yep. All right. Uh, so, so Forest. Das fine. 2:41 Fi- final one, uh, uh, the, the Bridges- [laughs] 'cause there's a lot of bridges in Portland, city of bridges. So Bridges, Forest, or Hill. Um, [laughs] I would... 2:53 Okay, I'm getting that you think these are all terrible. Sure. This is so- Fair... I love lamp coded. Look, I... Okay. Look, I thought you would appreciate this from... You run a magazine called Dirt, okay? Come on. 3:05 Didn't name it. I- Didn't name it... I thi- this is honestly, like- [laughs] This is like you looked out your window and just started, like, naming things. 3:12 [laughs] No, but- Well, I will tell you- I'll tell you what it was. Yeah. No, it's, I talked about this, I read a passage from this on the last, um, episode, because I just read Hill by, by Jean Giono. 3:20 Yeah, don't do that again. So, uh, yeah. I'm sure- What if we call it- I'm sure you hated that... another NYRB classic famous, Stoner. Stoner. Also an appropriate mascot for- Hmm, The Stoners... Lewis & Clark- It is... 3:32 College. Yeah. Um, The Stoners. Yeah, that would be a great nickname. So email them- A great mascot... and tell them you made a mistake. I can't. They can only [laughs] submit three ideas, and I- I'll submit it... 3:42 stand by my three ideas. Okay, fine. Well, I mean, so my college was the Polar Bears. Okay. But it was, it was, uh, it- Not even in the Arctic Circle. No, that's way cooler. Um, well, because Perry was the explorer. 3:58 Like, he was a, an alum- Mm-hmm... and we had a taxidermy polar bear. It's a whole thing. Okay. Uh, but it used to be the Sun because- We had a [laughs] taxidermy Newfoundland dog. We did not have- Was it... 4:09 No, but that wasn't Seaman. [laughs] Look, I don't know. I wasn't, I wasn't on the expedition. We didn't have a, we did not have a taxidermy dog, though. I mean, you wouldn't have been asked. 4:17 To be clear, I never went to a sports game. I've never, in college, never supported our, our [laughs] Seamen. I was a cheerleader. You w- really? Yeah. I'm not- This is a, this is a new war. 4:28 My friend, Holland, says I can't talk about it anymore or post photos. She says it's attention-seeking behavior. It is. Um, but I'm like, if you had photos of you in a cute cheerleading costume, you would post them, too. 4:41 Yeah. Well, that's like... I feel like you, those are go on ice, and then you kind of cede them to your children in 15 years- Yeah... so they can post about them on, on Rednote or whatever is cool. You're right. 4:53 You're right. Like, my mom was hot. Exactly. You. Um, anyhoo- [laughs] Um, I think they'll be a little too busy in the water wars, but, um- Water wars. Have you ever seen Waterworld? Is that a, is that a film? 5:06 I ha- well, I haven't seen it, so, um, but yeah, it's, it's, like, a Kevin Costner vehicle. I haven't, because you know what? I just watched American Psycho for the first time this weekend. Okay. 5:14 You sound, you sound like me last week when I was like, "I've never watched a David Lynch film." Well, that got to me. That got to me. Yeah. So I did watch American Psycho. 5:21 I did a Fight Club, which I had seen- Yeah, I've seen that one... and American Psycho double feature. Very interesting back-to-back. Double feature. Released in back-to-back years. Um- Yeah... 5:30 Jared Leto's in both of them. Oh, my... He is? And Justin Theroux, I think. I hate Jared Leto, but I feel like hating Jared Leto is, like, annoying. I think- Fair... it's, it's too obvious. Water. But I hate Jared Leto. 5:41 Okay. Do you like him? He has great hair, yeah. I don't know. I don't know anything. Okay, whatever. Um- [laughs] That's fine. Wait, I wasn't done with the mascot story. Oh, sorry. 5:51 Okay, so the original mascot was the Suns, because Bowdoin was the easternmost college in the United States. Mm. So the idea was the sun rises on Bowdoin. Well, the, the, the, the Massachusetts just jumped out. 6:02 [laughs]It does come out sometimes. [laughs] Anyways And so as it comes out, if I'm, like, really heated or if I'm a little bit drunk, which really isn't that often. 6:11 Are you, are you re- are you podding drunk [laughs] right now? No, not at all. I-- No. Um, I'm just- Okay. Anyways... under the influence of- Okay, the mascot. It was the Easternmost... love. Um, Easternmost College. 6:22 So that was the Sunrises on Bowdoin, and then apparently there was a period where it was, like, the Fighting Pines. Mm. And then, of course, the Polar Bears. 6:31 But interesting about-- thing about Fighting Pines, um, Portland, Maine just got a soccer team- They did... I believe it's called the Hearts of Pine, and it's sponsored by L.L.Bean. By L.L.Bean. 6:41 Mm-hmm And they posted a great video, which I'm sure you saw me repost, of all the guys getting duck boots. Um- It's very cool... but Ben says that Westchester County is also getting a team now, which is... 6:50 We live in Westchester County- Yeah... technically. And he's like- They're getting a- They're gonna play each other, so. Okay. Oh, cool. Yeah. Cool. Are you gonna buy an L.L.Bean Por- Heart of Pines jersey? I think so. 7:00 I mean- You should... I think I'm gonna buy one for us to share. Mm. And Josh also of Night Gallery fame- Yeah... 7:07 um, showed me his next drop, and I would say it's, like, extremely targeted towards anyone that was in college between the years 2009 and 2013. Nice. 7:16 And I already picked out something from there that we're gonna have joint custody of. Um- Anyways, our guest is here... is Tatum here? Okay. So who, who's we speaking to? 7:23 So our guest today is my friend Tatum Dooley, and she is the creator of Art Forecast, which is a newsletter. 7:33 She's also a curatorial consultant, a critic, and a writer, which is how we met, and I'm very excited to have her on the podcast today. Let's chat with Tatum. 7:43 [upbeat music] Hello, how's it going? Good. How are you? Hey, Tatum. Doing good. All right. Well, much to talk about today. Um, so okay. 7:59 Francis's other podcast is called Creator Spotlight. We talk a lot on this podcast about the difference between, like, 8:06 creators and traditional editorial workers, and then there's also kind of this dichotomy between artists and creators. 8:13 Um- I think of this like th- like f- creator, right, with, like, the implicit content before it is like there's this creative to entrepreneur spectrum. Maybe it's not, like, just, like, a one... 8:24 You know, it's not just a straight line. But, um, for sake of argument. But we were talking about your Artists Should Have Newsletters issue. Back to you, Daisy. Back to me. 8:35 Yeah, so I mean, the confusing thing about it is, like, the demands of being a creator seem like they're in conflict with most artists, um, unless you're, like, an Amalia Ulman and you're doing creation as a sort of, like- Or about being a creator... 8:50 you're behaving as a creator. Yeah. Yeah. As, like, a performance art thing, which, I mean, at this point, like, goes back to Warhol and is not even particularly, like, subversive these days. Um, so how... 9:04 Like, to me, your Artists Should Have Newsletters is, like, just taking into account the reality that everyone has an audience, and an audience is potential buyers. Um, but, like, how do you balance 9:17 this idea of being an artist with what you write about, which is, like, sort of the ways in which artists have to function as entrepreneurs? You're also married to an artist, so you see it, like, firsthand. 9:28 I think most artists I know are entrepreneurs. I think in an ideal world, we could just let artists be artists, but it's just not the reality. 9:36 Um, you know, there are some really big galleries that take on most of that work for their artists, if it's marketing and media, PR, um, Instagram, you know, that you have a studio, but that's at, like, a really high level. 9:50 Most artists have to do part of that themselves. 9:54 Um, and I think that there are things that artists do that really, like, lends itself to being an entrepreneur, so I kind of, when I'm talking about that on my newsletter, it's kind of like giving, being like, giving permission. 10:08 Be like, "You can be that entrepreneur for yourself as well." Um, I think Daisy and I, we've seen the way that, like, media has changed so much in that we've had to do that for ourselves. 10:19 In the best world, we would just be writers, and I would just wake up every morning and, you know, write a book and write some poetry, but that's not the reality of the world we're in right now. 10:28 And so you kind of do have to take on a little bit more ownership, um, so that you're not, like, left out to sea when things change. This is reminding me of a tweet I saw a, a couple weeks ago. I'm gonna read it. 10:42 "Entrepreneurs need to teach artists how to love money and sell. Artists need to teach entrepreneurs how to develop taste and make beautiful things. 10:51 The fact that these two despise each other is a net negative for humanity." Which, um, when I read this, I kinda was like, 10:58 "Uh," 'cause I've been thinking that, like, the e-entrepreneurs are good at selling things, like, in arbitraging attention, um, to, to make money without having to worry. Mm. 11:06 Like, qual- quality of art or craft or of content, let's say, right, is just, like, one possible part of a business model. It's not the only business model in town. Whereas, like, for somebody who is more 11:20 coming from the artist perspective, like, that is, that is the business model. It's not the business model. It's, like, the value. It's the point, right? Um, so I don't know. 11:29 I thought this, this tweet kind of surprised me, 'cause I think that entrepreneurs actually... 11:33 Or artists don't need to teach entrepreneurs how to develop taste and make beautiful things, because entrepreneurs don't have to do that to make money. Mm. But artists, 11:43 to survive in the way you're saying, where it's like you have to make a living, kind of are obliged to learn these entrepreneurial tactics. Mm. Right? I mean, the premise of the tweet, though, I'm not sure if it's true. 11:56 I don't know if entrepreneurs and artists hate each other. Yeah. I think that there's some symbiotic relationships that happen between those two groups of people. 12:04 Um, yeahIt's one of those things where you, like, you read it, and it, like, it kind of feels true, but then the more you think about it, you're like, "Hmm, no." 12:12 'Cause if you take into account the wider political and economic landscape, these groups don't have equal access to capital. Yeah. 12:20 And I mean, there is, like, this sort of taste economy thesis, which is like actually entrepreneurs will have to develop taste, but if you look at, like, 12:31 where capital actually accrues, like, in any instance where an artist teaches something to an entrepreneur, the entrepreneur will always benefit more than the artist. Yes. 12:41 Um, because you can't raise venture capital for your studio practice. Like- Mm-hmm... every artist is starting off from zero, um, needing to actually create something tangible unless they have, um, 12:56 like, real, like, source of patronage, which successful entrepreneurs historically provided, and now they just take over the US government. Yeah. Um, which is another thing I've seen, like, a lot of chatter about. 13:08 Like, what happened to making money and giving it back to the arts as, like, a point of pride? And now, as a point of pride, they spit on the arts. 13:18 So, I mean, Tatum, you are not in the United States, [laughs] but I'm sure you've- you're watching all of this unfold, and- Mm-hmm... I know that, like, 13:30 one thing I wanted to ask you about was the rebrand of your newsletter from Canadian Art Forecast to Art Forecast. 13:36 Like, you've done such a good job spotlighting your own sort of regional art scene and market, but the market is a global market, and it's- Mm-hmm... 13:47 not really possible to talk about any sort of, like, artist group in isolation. 13:51 So I'm curious, like, how- how did that- how has that rebrand, which I think was about a year ago, gone for you, and how have you seen your audience change? Mm-hmm. Um, yes. I'll definitely answer that. 14:03 Before I almost... Thinking of wh- what we were just chatting about, I wonder if we- artists don't teach entrepreneurs t- taste, but they ta- like, they allow them to perform taste. Mm. 14:15 Like, this idea of, like, faking taste by having the right art, which is kind of easy just to, like, copy and paste if you're in certain circles. 14:23 So it's like, I don't know if they teach ta- like, want to know actually to have- to have taste. They just want to perform the idea of having taste and, like, having the right things in their collection. 14:33 Um, and yes, Canadian Art Forecast was the original brand, um, and then a year ago I decided to drop the Canadian. Although, I'm like, "Maybe we should put it back." [laughs] I'm feeling very proud to be Canadian. Mm. 14:47 Um, but it was for a few reasons, which is I think that I was needlessly limiting myself to a certain geographic area. 14:56 Um, and I still write about Canadian art a lot, but it doesn't need to be, um, you know, identified as that. It's... 15:04 I have a larger audience now, and I feel like that's more beneficial to the Canadian artists that I work with and write about because now their audience is in the United States, it- it's in Ireland, it's in, you know, Australia, and, um, that is the reality of the art market right now. 15:19 It's global. Um, I was also traveling a lot, going to a lot of art fairs, so I didn't... You know, I felt like I was growing. When I started Canadian Art, I was very, like... 15:29 You know, I was based in Toronto, and that was where I was seeing all my art. And then as my art experience was growing, I decided to rebrand the newsletter- Mm... and the Instagram account along with it. 15:41 And it was also just, like, investing in myself and really then, like, taking it seriously, like, spending money to do the rebrand. Um, I, like, love the way it looks. It looks so professional. 15:52 It looks like exactly like what I'm trying to do, you know? It's kind of fun. It's a little bit, like, colorful. 16:01 It's all the things that I want Art Forecast to be, and so I feel like I've, like, grown into it a little bit more. Um, I wanna talk about your trend predictions- Mm... 16:12 in the newsletter, uh, at the top of this year, which you kind of, you kind of bait the reader in by saying the trend predictions, but then you kind of hedge that. Like, no, you know, nobody can predict the future. 16:22 It's actually futures, whatever. Um, but I'm just gonna read the five, and I'd love you to- to speak to them. Great. 16:29 Um, there'll be exhibitions with one to three artworks total, more galleries will close while others will open up with experimental formats, there'll be a move towards artist agents and managers instead of galleries, there'll be less corporate collecting, and Gagosian will name a successor. 16:48 Yes. Um, I mean, that's kind of like they're trend predict- predictions in quotation marks because I think they're kind of things I just maybe wanna see happen. Mm. And I'm so putting it into the world. 16:59 You're the manifestations. Self-fulfilling prophecy. Yeah. Um, yeah. So starting with number one, just having, like, singular pieces of art, and I think that it's like our attention economy. 17:11 It's like we're used to seeing so many things. It would be nice just to, like, focus on one thing. 17:16 Um, and that's, I think, like, a task that they do in art school is, like, you have to go to a museum and look at a single painting for 30 minutes, and you really start to learn about it more. 17:25 And so I really love the idea of having an exhibition about that. It also kind of moves it away from profit base. 17:32 You're gonna have 20 paintings because then you'll make more money, but what does it mean just to have one painting and really just ask, uh, the viewer to pay attention to that closely? 17:42 Um- Have you, have you been to some, any shows recently that were like that? I've been to museums that do that. They'll, like, hang... 17:48 There were, like, one, you know, in, uh, Toronto at the AGO, we have our Rubens in a single room. 17:54 And it's just, like, through the structure of that, it's just saying, "This is a very important piece that you need to pay attention to." And so museums definitely do that- Mm... 18:03 and it's, like, corporate collections, or not corporate, um-Commercial galleries, maybe less so. Nothing's coming to mind. Um- I mean, I think of, like, the Dia Foundation, like, everything they do is... 18:16 Not everything they do, but so much of what they do is that Very minimal. Mm-hmm. Uh, famously, the [laughs] the Caretakers of the Earth room- Mm-hmm... which we talk about all the time on this podcast. 18:27 You've been, right, Tatum? I haven't. No, we- I, I think- But we- Do you wanna go when you're in town? Yes. We can go together. It's settled. It's a date. We always see art together. We do. Yeah. 18:37 I was thinking, actually, Helen, my friend Helen, texted me a, a Hilma af Klint [laughs] 18:45 painting before this podcast started, and it was that dirt coated, and I was thinking about when we went to the show at the Guggenheim. This is the Tree of Life one? Yeah. Yeah. 'Cause you posted it. 18:53 Did I post it recently? I think you did. Okay. I think you posted it, like, an hour ago [laughs] on Twitter. Me? I think so. Anyways, moving on. Whatever. 19:01 Anyway, um, uh, Francis, [laughs] you might-- You and I may be plugged in a little bit too much to The Matrix, but, um- Hopefully... yeah, I have some photos of Tatum at the Guggenheim looking at that together. Oh, nice. 19:12 Mm-hmm. Um, and then the other prediction, I mean, we have seen galleries contin- like, closing. You know, the market- Mm-hmm... is down in the art world. Um, I like to think it's course-correcting versus down. 19:24 Um, but that is causing galleries to close, which is really unfortunate, but galleries are also opening, and I think we're seeing more, you know, people opening a gallery in their living room or a laundromat or, you know, creative spaces, um, as well as rotating gallery models, and I think that it's just really a smart move, um, that will end up, like, benefiting both the art and the artists. 19:51 Um, yeah, the artist agent one was a very interesting one. That's what I got the most emails for- Mm... and, like, people being like, "Great," like, "I'd love to work with you. 20:00 Can you help me do all of these things that you're saying?" Which goes back to that first thing, which is, like, should artists be entrepreneur- entrepreneurs? 20:07 I'm like, "No, if you don't want to, you could probably hire somebody to help you." I mean, you know? I think that's, that's probably the case for most people, like, of, in- Yeah... 20:14 not just, not just artists, but, like, actors have agents, right? 20:17 Like, most people who are, are prioritizing creative work shouldn't prob- they should speak the language of, like, the business side but should have somebody else doing it. Yeah, I agree. 20:28 Um, and it's always just, like, nice to have somebody in your corner, like, somebody that you're working with that's advocating for you. 20:34 If that's not gonna be a gallerist because it's, that model doesn't make sense for you, you know, it can be an agent, or it could just be, like, you have somebody that helps you with your communications and social media. 20:45 Whatever you don't wanna do, it's always a good idea- A momager... to get somebody else [laughs] to do it. I feel like I'm a momager for some of my friends that are writers, too. Yeah. 20:55 What do you- Um- What do you momage? 'Cause even in industries that have indus- uh, agents, there's a lot that agents can't do, um, or don't do. Like what? Um, they don't pitch out... 21:07 Like, if you have a book agent, they don't necessarily pitch out your essays or- Mm... like, nonfictions, shorter nonfiction to other publications. Mm. 21:15 Um, you don't necessarily, like, come up with ideas to pitch together for short form stuff. Um, and they don't necessarily help you with your marketing. So all those things can be complicated for- Can you do this? 21:27 I'm like, I wanna hire you, Daisy. Um, [laughs] you, uh... Well, there's no money exchange. This is [laughs]... Uh, no, I think, but I think it sort of ca- has come naturally because, um... 21:40 I mean, I don't know if you feel this way, Tatum, through, like, you go to a studio visit, you see somebody that's, like, up and coming, you wanna get in on the ground floor, and the best way- Mm-hmm... 21:47 to help them is through some of this, like, just, like, executive level strategy stuff. 21:53 Like, I feel the same way, like, when I have a young writer or a talented person, like, kinda come into the sphere of Dirt and I'm publishing them. 22:01 I start to take an interest in them being published, like, more widely, even beyond Dirt, and, like, starting to build their career, and it's hard not to be involved if you have that instinct. Yeah. 22:16 I feel the exact same way. Like, you're opting it. You're like, there's a buy-in. You're like, "I'm invested in your success because I believe in what you're doing." Mm-hmm. Yeah. 22:26 I actually wanted to ask you about the studio visit. 22:28 I guess it's not directly in those predictions, but sort of feels tangential, where everyone's talking about URL to IRL, people really want in-person interactions again. Like, 22:41 I think, I feel like the studio visit could play an important role in that, and I really liked the one that you did with Janine Brito because, um, I was already following her on Instagram, but it was really cool to see photos from inside her studio, the actual, like, materiality of it. 22:59 Um, and then I saw one of her pieces is, I think, the UK book cover for Sophie Kemp's Paradise Logic book, which has been kinda buzzed about in my book circle. So that was a cool connection. But I guess, like, 23:16 what, what is the power of the studio visit in, like, 2025? Yeah. I've actually been thinking about writing a newsletter on studio visit rules. 23:25 Um, firstly, like, I think people don't realize, like, you can just email any artist that you like and ask to go for a studio visit. That's, like, part of artist practice, practices. Um, some people might say no. 23:38 They might say, you know, they don't have work or if they're too busy, but a lot of people will say yes. Um, and it's a really great way to both, like, meet the person, you know, demystify the artist a little bit. 23:48 They're just everyday people. 23:50 Um, ask questions, learn more about their work, um, like, see the environment where they're working as well as works in progress.Um, and then in terms of, like, studio visit rules is [laughs] like I do hear horror stories from artists about, like, the way people act. 24:05 Like, picking up, like, their paintbrushes and, like, playing with things. Like, just don't touch anything in a studio visit. Ask before you take photos. Don't post photos. 24:15 Most people don't like to have works in progress posted. Hands clasped behind the back the whole time. Yeah. 24:19 [laughs] Like, really, it's like if you ever see, like, children a- um, at a museum, like a school group, and they have to, like, all be like have their hands held- Yeah... 24:27 like, so they don't touch the art, that's like think back to that and don't touch anything. Um, like, don't give unsolicited negative feedback. [laughs] Yeah. Things like that. 24:37 Um- I've heard from, like, female artists, too, there's people who will, like, 24:41 especially, like, attractive young women, there's people who will, like, feign an interest in the work just to get, like, proximity, and I just think that's, like, so gross. Yeah, criminal. 24:50 Like, that's really a weird thing to do. Just- It is weird Like a date- It's very weird... just like a, like to trying to turn a studio visit into like, "Oh, this is a date." 24:58 Like- Yeah, but men have been doing that, like, forever, right? Yeah. They're always like- Yes, but I do think... "Oh, I'd love to have a coffee." That's true. This is a date. That's true. 25:06 [laughs] I think because, like, I don't know, the studio is, like, a fixed place, and it's, like, a sacred place. Mm-hmm. 25:14 Like, when somebody, like, wants to, like, pick my brain and it ends up just being, like, a psycho violation, I'm like, "That's f- " And like, um, I mean, I can't get a new brain, but we're gonna move on from that. 25:27 But, like, if you have people, like, repeatedly, like, invading your studio 25:32 under the auspices of one interest and it's actually a different interest, like, that's tough because it's a physical space and you can't pick up and move. And maybe you can't afford- Mm... 25:41 to say no to people, not knowing whether the interest is genuine or not. Yeah. There needs to be, like, vetting. 25:48 I wonder if in that case artists can be like, "I'm having an open studio between the hours of 3:00 and 4:00 on Wednesday," and then they get multiple people to come at the same time as well as, like, a few friends just to kind of, like, create some boundaries. 26:04 I've thought about doing open studio for picking my brain. That's fun. Just dump everyone- Do it... in the same- That sounds terrible... Zoom environment. I, I... That sounds [laughs] 26:12 so- Well, just 'cause nobody wants to pick your brain doesn't mean [laughs] Look, people, I, you know what I've been saying recently when people ask for, especially 'cause I have an open role right now and so people want, really wanna talk to me, some sycophantic- People wanna talk to me about your open role, Francis. 26:26 I, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. It's okay. Um- It's okay. It's okay to ask. 26:29 But no, I've been saying, like, I mean, my line has been, "Look, like, there's a lot of applicants, and, um, I can't do an extracurricular conversation about the role right now. 26:39 But, like, if you have one or two questions, feel free to send them, and I'll, and I'll write you back a response." Mm-hmm. 26:44 And usually they don't reply because it's, again, it's like they don't really have the quest- And I get it. I mean, I would do that, too. I do do that. You should always ask, like, "Oh, could we have a chat?" 26:55 Or whatever. Um, but I'm always gonna say no. [laughs] I always say yes. I think it's so important. I mean, may- I'm probably being asked less than both of you. 27:05 Well, okay, what types of people are asking you, and what is the power and economic differential? I mean specifically, too, about because I'm hiring- Oh... for this job right now. It's like I'm not- Yeah... 27:13 talking to enough people. Like, I'll, I'll reach out to you. I've looked at your application, and I will reach out to talk to you- Right... when, when it's time to talk to you. But... No, that's a different dynamic. 27:23 I feel like young writers, young artists, I'll always go to the studio if I'm invited. I'll try to go to the opening if I'm invited. I'll go for coffee. 27:32 And I feel like what I've heard from young writers or artists is that people are, like, telling them they're, like, "Run away when you can." Like, "This is an awful industry." Mm. 27:41 And that really gets under my skin because we need to be offering support to younger artists, writers, um, instead of just being like, "We've made it. Now we're, like, pulling up the ladder." 27:51 So I try to go out of my way and be like helpful. I feel like that's also, like, any industry I can think of is, like, I can think of somebody saying about that. Like, I'm currently work in, like, at a software company. 28:00 I've worked in- Mm... kitchens, like, you know, I've worked in coffee. I feel like every single, I've heard that of every single industry I've worked in, like, "Run away." I don't know. That's interesting. 28:10 I think we all deep down know the difference between mentorship and, like, free consulting. Mm-hmm. 28:15 Um, this sort of came up on the podcast with, like, Emily Sundberg, too, but sometimes it's hard because, like, if your industry's, like, attractive enough and the barrier to entry is low, which is sort of the case with writing but not necessarily- Mm... 28:29 art, because you would actually have to create something, there's so many dilettantes- Mm... that they can sort of, like, be like, "Oh, 28:37 I'm seeking mentorship," but what they're really looking for is free consulting because their relationship to the industry is not to be a player. It's to basically just, like, pick off some status- Mm-hmm... 28:53 from people who are actually creating things. Um- Mm-hmm... 28:56 and I do get that vibe from, like, a lot of entrepreneurs as well, which is why I don't think the exchange between entrepreneurs and artists can be even for the most part. I agree. I agree with that. 29:06 Um- You could disagree, though. Like- No, I, I fully agree with that. 29:08 No, that, that, that's kind of my whole point is that, like, it's never gonna be equal because the entrepreneur always has, like, the understanding of how to actually make money and, like, create the revenue streams or whatever, whereas the artist does not have that. 29:22 And so, like, they are very simply, like, at a huge disadvantage- Mm-hmm... in the, in the market. Yeah. I still wanna give more credit to artists, though. Yeah. Like, artists definitely know how to make money. 29:33 I know a lot- No, definitely... artists that make significant money. They understand how markets work. They understand, you know, they have to deal with secondary markets and bubbles, and the strategy involved with that. 29:43 Like, there is nuance, um, to the art market. I think, yeah. I think I'm s- I'm, like, the way I'm framing it, too, is definitely in, like, the context of, like, newsletters because that's what I cover. 29:54 So, like, when I... my, like, creator entrepreneur spectrum is, like, somebody who's, like, a really good writer- Mm... 29:59 writing a newsletter versus somebody who's, like, made, like, a, a profitable-Like local news newsletter, as some people I've spoken to- Mm-hmm... have, and it's like they... 30:09 He's, like, this guy I'm thinking of, he's really good at making money, and he doesn't have to work with journalists to produce, like, original local reporting- Yeah... 30:17 because that would be a net negative on, on, you know, that would, that would, that would cut very, uh, cut into his bottom line in a big way. 30:25 So I think, yeah, I think with, with, like act- with let's say painters, it's a lit- it's a little bit different. 30:31 I'll, I'll, I'll- Speaking of the secondary market, Tatum, you worked at Peggy, which was a platform that was working to solve the problem of, like, artist royalties that- Mm-hmm... 30:40 you know, you get money off the first sale, but there's no, like, um, unless it's, like, written into the contract for the sale, there's not a royalties mechanism in perpetuity. Mm-hmm. 30:51 Um, some people in Web3 and the blockchain thought that that would be a way to solve that. Peggy is, like, a marketplace that, like, sort of enforced that, is my understanding. 31:01 Like, what is sort of the state of this royalties question, and, like, how are artists navigating around it, like the savvier ones like you mentioned? Mm-hmm. [smacks lips] Yeah. 31:12 I feel like it was a really hot topic, like, four years ago, and it's less pressing right now for some reason. Um, 31:21 I think the thing with art and tech, I'm kind of, like, skeptical of it because the art world is so opaque. 31:27 In tech, I think the premise of it is transparent, and so people don't really love to touch or, like, combine the two because they don't like the transparency that you would need, um, in order to have, like, a really smooth royalties process. 31:41 Um, most galleries now do get their collectors to sign a contract that often has royalties included. Um, if that's being honored, honestly, I'm not sure. 31:52 I do know some people will, like, honor it out of, like, a, you know, they wanna keep working with this artist or this gallery, and they wanna keep a good relationship, so they offer the royalties kind of out of the goodness of their heart as well as wanting to continue to get access to the art. 32:08 Um, yeah, I mean, something like in the UK, it is, like, the law that artists get royalties, so I feel like that would be a more viable route to ensure that artists- How long has it been a law there?... get paid. 32:20 I'm not sure. Yeah, I'm not... Yeah, I can't even guess, but it's been a law for a while. [chuckles] You, so we sort of touched on this with, like, saying yes to the studio visit, saying yes to meeting the young artist. 32:33 Like, to me, that sort of falls under your writing about the artist-first approach to art. Mm-hmm. Um, and I just wanted to, like, read off, um, a quote from that newsletter that you wrote. 32:45 "An artist-first approach to art means following a young artist's career, showing up at openings, and offering support and opportunities in multiple forms." Mm-hmm. 32:53 "It also means extending care to art workers outside of the public eye, cleaners, art handlers, security guards, life models, and art movers, to name a few, all of the people who make the art world move behind the scenes." 33:06 Um, can you talk a little bit about, like, writing that and, um- Mm-hmm... you know, how you put that into praxis, practice? [chuckles] Yeah. 33:15 I sometimes think in the art world we focus on collectors and galleries, because they're, like, the sexiest. They make the most money. They're flashy. They're fun. They're cool. 33:25 Um, and I was really, like, through writing about art for the last decade, just came to this conclusion that, like, what I love about art is the artist. Like, everything I wanna do is in support of artists. 33:37 Um, like, they're just, [chuckles] I don't know, like, they're very special to me. 33:42 Like, not, like, as an abstract thing, but, like, just, like, in my life, like, the people around me that I love the most are artists, and they really teach me a lot about how to look at the world. 33:52 Um, and then it's kind of more of a question of, like, how can everybody else in the art world be of service to them and not be, like, trying to take advantage and, like, make the most money off of them, but be like, what are the conditions that we can create, um, for artists to exist in the world and make the best art po- possible? 34:10 Uh, and yeah, I feel like I've come back to this idea of the artist-first approach again and again in my writing. And, like, sometimes it, like, peaks, it peaks out. Yeah. 34:19 You also wrote, "If we strip the market of the commodification of work, the ego leaves with it. In its place, a community develops, relationships form, and art holds more meaning. 34:29 With an artist-first approach to art, we give artists the space and resources to create their best work, showing care to everyone who stands in front of the art." Um, sort of makes me think of, like, 34:40 Fran Lebowitz's panel that I saw, like, in 2020, and she said something like, um, "There's no art world. There's only, like, an art market," or something. Mm-hmm. 34:49 Basically commenting on the fact that, like, we don't call it the music market. You know? Mm-hmm. We don't call it the literature market. Um, but art 35:01 is very commodified, but you don't necessarily have to participate in that market in every way. There's... You can opt in and opt out, um, but people might not feel like they have that power. 35:13 So that's why I like, uh, your newsletter, 'cause it feels like a realistic but empowerment-focused set of, like, advice and ways of thinking about the world. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, it's true. 35:26 Sometimes I find myself interchanging art market and art world in my writing, and I'm like, "What am I doing?" 35:31 I prefer to say art world, because, like, the art market feels so focused on the commodity side of it and the buying. 35:40 Um, and then I feel like sometimes the newsletter is me, like, working through some of those things in real time, because I do think the buying is important. I like to collect art when I can. 35:49 Like, that is something that's, like, a very tangible thing you can do to support the art market/world. You know, you'll support a gallery, you'll support an artist, which will allow them to continue to make work. 36:01 Um, so I don't wanna discredit that element, but yeah, there are so many other ways that you can support artists. Um, and some of them probably, like, feel-Maybe better. 36:12 Like if you're gonna go to a studio visit, and then, like, show up for that artist at their opening, and, like, tweet about it, or write a post, or do an Instagram, or, like, write them a lovely email saying how much the work means. 36:24 Like, we can't just exist on money. We also need those other kind of forms of support, mental, emotional, sometimes physical. Offer to help move some art. Like, g- going back to the artists and creators idea, I... 36:39 One thing, like, with the newsletter I do, sometimes people will sign up, and, like, I send out the, the automated welcome email, and it's like, "What would you like to, to see us write about? 36:48 People you'd like to see us cover?" Whatever. And sometimes I'll get people who, like, are painters or something, and they are like, "Oh, I'd love to see you cover more, like, artists in here." 36:59 And I, and I don't really, because I, I haven't found anywhere, like, like, I'm always looking for an angle where there's something interesting about the way they're using digital content to build a business, right? 37:12 Or, like, how they've built their audience. And so many of the... 37:15 Like, when I think of artists who have done that in a really interesting way, it's, usually it's on Instagram, and it's like there's, there's not necessarily anything for me to, like, write about and extract that, like, other people trying to build a business around content can learn from, 'cause it's like, oh, well, they are, they paint really beautiful paintings, and then they post them, and people like that. 37:36 [laughs] Um, which I think I probably have some blind spots there, though. So I'm curious if you think there are any, like, artists who do Instagram best these days or, or, or some other social platform, but... Oh, gosh. 37:52 I mean, that's a good question that I might, like, need a [laughs] minute to, like- Yeah... think about. 37:58 I mean, there are, like, the trends on TikTok of people, like, hiding their paintings and then, like, doing a slow reveal. Yes. Those are interesting. It's slightly different market artists. 38:08 Like, they're, like, more like independent artists that are maybe selling directly off of their website, whereas I do, like, write mostly about people that are existing in, like, more of, like, an art fair and, like, gallery system. 38:19 But I did find that that was interesting. There was, like, something about, like, um, I guess, like, a buildup of, like, a surprise. 38:26 You were, like, looking at the person and maybe making a judgment about what kind of art they made, and then you got a big reveal. So maybe there is something interesting- Well, frankly-... about that format... 38:35 when I see those, though, it's like, I, I guess I'm gonna be rude here. It's like usually the art isn't that interesting or that good, and it's more about the, the video. It's more about the TikTok, whatever. 38:44 Like, uh, the, [laughs] the classic example I think of is the, the fucking guy who, like, hangs from a trapeze with, like, a giant bucket of paint and, like- No... 38:54 the canvas is rotating under him, and he's just, like, dumps this bucket, and it's like... And apparent- apparently they s- you know, he sells them and whatever, and he has a market for that. 39:02 But I, that's just like, come on, what am I gonna... There's nothing. 39:07 You're, you're making a good, you know, 10-second video, and that's what this is, and you're s- [laughs] you're, you're pouring so, like, five gallons of paint. Um, I don't know. 39:17 I think, so it kind of goes back to, like, the artist, creator, the creator, entrepreneur, artist spectrum, where it's like somebody like that is, like, very good at making... Their med- his medium isn't, isn't painting. 39:27 It's- Mm-hmm... TikTok videos, right? Yeah. I don't think I would recommend for any artist that wants to be, like, serious about being in the art market to be on TikTok- Yeah... necessarily. 39:37 Like, I think that it is too commodifying. Like, you want a little bit of mystery if you wanna be... Like, there's so many different ways to be an artist. 39:45 Um, but I love artists that, like, don't just share their own work, but they also share about the history of art, like- Mm-hmm... 39:51 what other artists they're looking at, and they, like, kind of give us a little peek into the way that they think about art. I find that really beneficial. 39:59 Well, one of my, one of my favorite, I, I don't, don't think he's so active anymore, but for years, Brad Phillips, and he had his Brad Phillips group show Instagram account. Canadian. Yeah, Cana- Canadian artist. 40:08 And, um- Love that... and I, I've discovered so much interesting art through that, and I think he stopped years ago. I read his book last year. Did we talk about it? I don't know if we talked about it. 40:15 Essays and Fictions? Yeah. I, I- Very, very same. Yes, I did read it. You know- Mm-hmm... you know I, you know I, I, who I lent it to? Harrison the Dare. He never gave it back to me, four or five years ago. Whoa. 40:25 That explains a lot. You know, then he got famous. I think I know people that are, like, in that book as, like- Oh, yeah?... pseudo figures and, like, not- Oh... in a good way. They're kinda like, "Oops." [laughs] Oh. 40:37 He's, like, he's controversial figure. I mean- He is. Yeah... you need some controversy. Um, he speaks his mind, and that's great. Yeah. 40:43 Yeah, I love, like, a writer that's also a fiction, you know- I kind of forgot about him... a writer, an artist that's a fiction writer. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a rare... It's a rare figure. I, he, he fell off my map. 40:51 I, I don't know why. I don't know. I don't think he posts as much anymore. No, 'cause he was... I mean, that was, like, a different era of Instagram, too. 40:58 Like, I guess when I think about when I was looking at his Instagram, it was, like, 2017 through 2021 or something. Mm-hmm. I don't know. It's true, though, that group shows are a great way to discover- Yeah... people. 41:12 Like, if you have one person who's, like, slightly more known than the other people, like, it's, it's, like, a great way to, like- Elevate. Yeah. Yeah. It's the tide that lifts everyone. Yes. Yeah. 41:23 I think that's important. Actually, now I do have an Instagram answer- Okay... because I'm writing a piece on Anna Weyant, Chloe Wise- Oh... and Janine Brito, all three Canadian artists, um, doing- The three horse-... 41:35 incredibly successful... women of the art market. [laughs] But they- Sorry... they post in an interesting way, right? Yeah. Because they're both, like... 41:43 They're showing their paintings, which are of themselves and their friend groups. Yeah. And they're also posting that same content. 41:50 So the Instagram grid really does become, I think, I want the title of the article to be Painting the Grid because- Hmm. Mm. That's smart... and it's, like, what came first, right? 41:59 Like, people want to opt into their lives, um, because it's, like, a beautiful, interesting lives that they're living, and then they're also painting it. 42:08 So it's allowing these multiple places of access into what they're-What they're doing, who they're hanging out with These are all paintings that, yeah, that fit so well into just looking at it on your phone in, like, a few inches of space. 42:21 Mm-hmm. Yeah, I actually wrote about Anna's way of doing that a little bit, um, in a piece I- an essay I wrote called Aurora that touched on Andrew Wyeth, where he- Mm... was painting his neighborhood, and his neighbors. 42:37 Like, Christina's World, that's a painting of- Mm-hmm... his neighbor. Yeah. Which, I mean, like, most people that know him know, but- Well, that's who... It's, like, my favorite painting ever. 42:44 After, like, seeing it- Yeah... when I f- saw it in person for the first time, I like... I don't think I've ever seen a painting in person that I'd seen, you know, reproduced as an image so many times. Like, the... It... 42:54 Never have I had such a shock of, like, seeing it in person, being like, "Holy shit" It stands up. Yeah. Yeah. It's amazing. But he was considered, like, really way too sentimental and old-fashioned for the time. Mm. 43:05 And was sort of, like, beefing with the AbEx, CIA-backed AbEx movement. Mm. You know? 43:12 And but now we have, like, the painters that Tatum's writing about, and they are sort of depicting their social scene in the same way that he- Mm... depicted his neighbors. 43:20 But it feels very different because of that online and parasocial element where, like, in, 43:28 in the course of, like, going to a gallery and seeing Christina's World during that era, there's no opportunity to form a parasocial- Yeah... relationship- Mm... 43:37 with her or the subjects of the painting, or to sort of, like, try to, like, map out the scene. But Instagram makes it so easy to map out a scene based on who's liking who and pictured with who. Yeah. 43:50 I mean, they're not sentimental paintings. But it does make me think, um, Kieran, my husband, one of his exhibition's title was Towards Sentimentality, which I thought was really sweet. 44:01 Like, leaning into that sentimental nature, 'cause he also kind of paints his life and our life together, um, which I have to gr- grapple with sometimes. There's a painting that Kieran did of Tatum's, um... 44:15 I don't know if I'm pronouncing this correctly, Marimekko shower curtain. Mm-hmm. Yeah, the iconic. Yeah, that I think about, like, all the time. [laughs] I- I know. I want a, a sponsorship from Marimekko. 44:25 [laughs] Oh, they would 100% share it. You could arrange that. Yeah. 44:27 I was, I was looking at his Instagram before this, when I was reading your writing and stuff to come up with some questions, and I, I, I was blown away. It's, it's really, it's really beautiful. Oh, thank you. 44:38 Yes, I agree. Um, I kind of, like, was thinking I'm a bit of a nepo wife. [laughs] No. That's not true. There's a lot of value that I get out of being married to an artist. Um- Mm... 44:52 and, like, just I learn, I learn so much about the art world through him. Mm-hmm. I wanted to ask about, you've written about, like, the right and wrong way to do criticism. Obviously, like- Mm... 45:04 one thing that you can do for an artist that you believe in is, like, write about their work. 45:09 Um, although, like, not so much in the art industry, but, like, in the music industry right now, there's the whole, like, they don't build statues of critics thing. 45:17 Where it's like, oh, actually, the critic and artists are, like, at odds. But- Mm-hmm... you know, as somebody who believes in, like, good criticism, like, how else are you going to discover new things? Yeah. 45:28 Misunderstand criticism. Um, and you give sort of four loose guidelines for negative critical reviews. Mm. Which is, ah, no punching down. Does the angle speak to a larger issue or trend? 45:39 Would I find writing about the work interesting? And is there something else I would rather be writing? And I, I mean, I think this, these are great rules for, like, any criticism. 45:49 Um, but yeah, I'm curious to hear how, like, you've been applying that, or what the feedback was on, on that post. Yes. I mean, I've been thinking about that a lot lately. 46:01 And I think to expand on it, what I've been articulating to myself is, like, good faith versus bad faith criticism, which I think that really those rules just boil down to, am I doing this in good faith to try to, like, create a conversation or to try to, like, push the art world or the, somebody to, like, be better? 46:21 Um, w- or is it just, like, kinda needlessly being catty? 46:24 Obviously wouldn't wanna do the latter, but I think that we're in an environment right now that everybody thinks it's bad faith criticism if you say anything negative. 46:34 Um, like, I wrote a review of the Toronto Biennale for the Toronto Star, and privately, I had people emailing me being like, "Thank you for saying that out loud. We agree. Like, uh, hopefully they can be better." 46:48 But publicly, I had people being like, "How dare you? They're trying their hardest, and you've just, like, come a- like, and just are being so negative" And I'm like [laughs]... 46:57 And somebody said, like, "Well, everyone's a critic, aren't they?" I'm like, "Well, yes, I'm, like, literally an art critic, so that is my job, and that's what I'm doing." And it's in good faith. 47:06 It's like, I'm not just being mean for the sake of it. I'm just saying, "I think that this can be better, and this is how it can be better." And that's supp- that's something valuable instead of something that's harmful. 47:17 Um, and of course, like, yeah, we've also seen it with, like, the reaction to, like, Dean Kezik. Some of it was, like, really, like, valuable. 47:24 Like, I've seen response essays that really get into it, and, like, open up a conversation. But then you've also... 47:30 I've seen, like, some pretty, like, vile, like, knee-jerk responses, which is just like, you know, "How dare you say anything?" I'm thinking of, uh, the, the, uh... 47:40 About a year ago, Lauren Oyler's No Judgment essay collection came out, and then it was, was it Anne Minov, the writer, who had- Yeah, and Rebecca Rothfeld. Both of them sort of ethered it. Yeah. And to me, it's like, 47:53 like, it was just so funny reading it. I read the book, and I enjoyed it. Um, I... No, I don't think it was, like, the greatest essay collection I've ever- You enjoyed it without judgment? Uh, no. Well, I, I... 48:02 Yeah, sure. [laughs] Um, but I read it, and I enjoyed it. And then, you know, I read the... Anne Minov's, like, you know, scathing review, and I enjoyed that too. And I was like- Mm... everybody's winning here. 48:11 Like- Yeah... she got to write a fun, very negative review. Lauren Oyler got to write her book and have it written about and discussed. Like, the, the... I, I don't know. 48:21 People were discoursing like, "Oh, man, yeah, that, those essays were so bad. Like, she really got her with that review" And it's like, no, they both... I don't know. To me, it's like, you write the thing. 48:30 Y- you should, you should hope it gets criticized. You should hope somebody takes a critical view and, like... I don't know. It was... I, I think, um-People need to have thicker skin. 48:40 It's like, it's like the whole poptimism thing, right? Mm-hmm. It's like the past decade-plus culture of like, "No, everything has its value," which I think I, like, was stuck in for a while. 48:49 Like, I remember in college studying, like, rhetoric and media and like being ab- like reading Montaigne and have- being obsessed with, like, the idea of subjectivity. 48:57 And like, I remember thinking that, like, oh, taste is, like, what every- anybody has a specific taste, and like anything that somebody thinks is good you can, like, put yourself in their shoes and, like, reconstruct, like, who they are and their worldview by assuming it's good and, like, kind of backing out from that into, into why it might be good. 49:16 So I was obsessed with that idea for a while, and now, like, I feel like for the past five years or so, I've been trying to dispel myself of that and return to like, "No, things are bad, and things are good." 49:28 And it's, you should have judgments on that, and they won't be the same as other people's judgments. But, like, you sh- need to have your judgments of what's good- Mm-hmm... 49:36 what's bad and why, and, like, understand the specific, like, material and ideological reasons that you think that. You mean setting out, like... 49:45 I mean, but that's separate from reviewing whether somebody actually achieved what they set out to do. 49:50 Like, you're saying that it's actually okay for, to say they achieved what they set out to do, but what they set out to do was shitty. Yeah. Sure. Absolutely. Interesting. 49:58 Well, you know who's gonna be in the hot seat soon is Andrea Long Chu. Mm. Her book's coming out, and I think some people are kinda coming out [laughs] Are, are rubbing their hands... 50:05 gonna come out of the woodwork out with the pitchforks. Mm-hmm. Um, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Criticism good. I mean, it's also, I mean, if you dole it out, you should be able to take it. Yeah. 50:16 People sometimes are not happy with things that I write, and I'm, like, more than happy to hear from them. I think it actually, like, brings the temperature down. 50:24 Like, people expect, like, me to be hostile back to them, and when they realize that, like, I will be open to a conversation, I notice people, like, calm down immediately. 50:33 And I'm like, "Yeah, now we're having an interesting conversation." Yeah. [laughs] You've maybe taught me something, or I'm, like, saying, "You know, this is what I think." 50:40 Um, and it's also, like, I'm like, it's just thank you. Like, you're engaging with me. Like, that is always gonna be a good thing. Like, you're reading what I'm writing and, like, following what I'm up to. 50:52 Like, thank you. There's no, like, bad... It's okay if you don't agree with me. Yeah. We sent, uh- Go on, read the thing... prior Tasteland guest Greta Rainbow to the Saide Tamboly- Oh... opening at Gagosian. 51:03 I need to read that. Yes, I read it. It's so good. Uh, I mean, it's, I, what I like about doing, like, a scene report is she was, like, really reviewing the scene and not the art. 51:11 And she talks about in it, like, is it even worth offering a review of a Saide Tamboly in 2025? Like, there's no controversy about- Yeah... whether he's a good artist or what he achieved. Um, 51:23 so a, a major theme of the, [laughs] the report is more of a review of the experience, which was- Mm-hmm... uh, completely dry apparently. Mm. And nobody had anywhere to put their coat. 51:33 So, um, if you're listening, Larry Gagosian, um, [laughs] Get some coat racks. Tell us who's gonna be your predecessor. Yeah, who's your successor? Successor. Who's your successor? Successor, not predecessor. Yeah. 51:43 Do you have theories? Do you have theories? No, I have no theories. [laughs] Come on. Throw out some, uh, fun. Throw out some fun. It's probably somebody already at Gagosian that we've never heard of. Yeah. 51:50 Never heard of. It's gonna be somebody that no one- Does he have children? No. No? He had Anna Wintour for a minute, but... Oh, they broke up? Yeah. Mm. RIP. I mean, okay, it was dry. 52:01 I, I've been hearing about this a lot this week- Mm... about these, like, New York galleries are no longer serving alcohol. Mm. And people are like, feels like it's, like, headline news in the art world. 52:11 Um- Recession indicator. I mean, we're still serving alcohol in Canada, um, in bulleted meetings. I'm coming right over. Yeah. 52:18 I was at, I was at Foreign and Domes- Foreign Domes- domestic a couple months ago, and let me tell you, they ran out of Modelo quick. But they did have Modelo in a plastic tub with ice in it. 52:29 Just what everybody wants at an opening is, like, a warm beverage- Mm-hmm... that's supposed to be cold. 52:34 [laughs] But no, I mean, I feel like that scene report was about the hierarchy of, like, who has access to certain things because, you know, somebody's still getting that glass of champagne. 52:44 Somebody has a place to put their coat. Um, and I liked that it wasn't, like, overly, like, critical of that hierarchy. I think everything has a hierarchy. 52:54 Like, your library, like, if you go in there every day, they're gonna recognize you and put your favorite books on hold for you. 53:00 It's not just about, like, how much money you spend, but it's how much of a community member that you can be. Mm. Um, and then I do think there are different, like, tiers of access that you get. 100%. 53:11 Everyone needs a Gallerina in their life. My best friend, um, is sort of a graduate, graduated from Gallerina. 53:19 But, um, you know, for a long time, at least still use, like, my headshot that I basically always use- She still carried your term... is, like, me inside the Karl Lagerfeld exhibition at Carpenters Workshop Gallery. 53:30 Why was I there on a Sunday? Because my friend worked there, and I have lots of pictures of me [laughs] in that beautiful space. So, and I always had somewhere to put my coat when I went to her openings. So, you know. 53:42 Right. They are- That's a summary of success... Gallerinas are cash poor and, uh, coat room rich. [laughs] Coat room. Yeah. 53:47 I mean, sometimes I like to say, like, in terms of socioeconomic status, a lot of us have really high socio status and very low economic status, but- Mm... the people with high economic status want our socio status. 54:00 It's just the full come, you know, we've gone full circle. Like, that's really, we're just sharing our status together. 54:05 This is, okay, this touches back on one of my favorite themes, which I didn't come up with, but I wrote about in my newsletter, uh, a couple months ago. Kate Eichhorn, media theorist, uh, is where I got it. 54:16 But the idea of content capital- Mm... which is, like, another, a third thing in there, right? 54:20 Which I was writing about it in the context of, like, on Instagram, Twitter, whatever, like, your content capital is your following, your reach, your ability to, 54:29 you know, turn your content capital into ac- into material capital, um, or social capital, any form of capital really. 54:36 Uh, where I kind of end up on it is, is that, you know, the only kind of pure gold bullion, uh, form of content capital is emails, right? Going back to newsletters. But, um, I don't know. 54:48 Now I'm thinking of this, like, in the context of a lot that we've been talking about today, like the, the, the Chloe Wise's. 54:53 Like, that's such a, like, content capital that beco- Like, that's a type of painting that maybe... I mean, I don't know. Maybe it wouldn't, if, if it was, like, a vacuum, this wouldn't have been what happened. 55:02 But maybe if you're making work like that, um, and you don't have the connections to the galleries, whatever, already, uh, because it's like you can accrue content capital with this work that looks really good on Instagram, then that's very easily translatable into cultural capital, financial capital, um, I don't know, content capital first art. 55:23 Mm-hmm. Yeah. You never want somebody to be disappointed when they see your art in person, though. Mm. Like, it would be dangerous to make art too good for Instagram because you're just gonna let people down. 55:33 I was reading one of the comments on one of your newsletters, I forget which one, earlier. It might have been the predictions one. Um, and somebody had said, like, "What about, what about AI and art and, like, AI art?" 55:43 Mm. 55:43 And, like, obviously that is related to people who make purely digital things, but it's like with paintings, it's like, well, it doesn't matter 'cause you could have an AI-generated reference image, but you still have to make the, you still have to make the brush strokes, right? 55:56 Like, I don't know. Mm. Yeah. What did I, did I reply to the person? You did. It was pretty neutral. [laughs] Okay. Yeah. I like- You didn't reply. I, um- Oh. Yeah. On that note. [laughs] On that note, this is Tasteland. 56:08 This has been Tasteland. See you next week. [laughs] Thank you. Thank you. [outro music]
