Transcript 0:00 [upbeat music] Welcome back to Tasteland. I am your co-host, Francis Zier. And I'm Daisy Alioto. And it was your birthday thi-this weekend, Daisy. How, how does it feel [laughs] to be one year older? Feels good. 0:17 I think 34 is sort of like a non-year. Um- Mm... it's not a big milestone, but I'm- Yeah... going to try to embrace it. It's like you're midway between not midlife and midlife. Well, you don't have to say that. 0:31 [laughs] We don't have to say that. It's too late. It's too late. I did. Um- Um, who... So we should say we are recording this intro after we spoke to the person, which is a little different than usual. 0:41 But who did we speak to this week? We spoke to Charlie Baker, who is the editor of The Fence, which is the UK's only magazine, or they claim to be. Pretty good. Uh, this is- They claim to be... 0:54 this is a joke that I've made- Pretty good tagline... actually rips off the same Dirt and often, ripped off the same joke, and often tell people Dirt is the last digital media company in America. So- Mm... 1:04 uh, I actually appreciate the, uh, the grandiosity of this facetious statement. 1:11 And Charlie had a lot of really interesting things to say about the history of London, the media landscape in the UK, and, you know, learning more about their audience, and they do also have a significant international audience that includes Francis and I. 1:25 Yes. Um, it's really nice to feel connected with something outside of the New York media bubble, and we need- Definitely... more projects like this. 1:33 So, uh, something I want to point out is by coming on this podcast, um, Charlie, perhaps not directly, but The Fence made 65 pounds because I paid for a year subscription, which is the international fee. 1:49 Uh, and I bring this up because earlier this morning, I was doing some outreach, trying to find, trying to secure new guests for my other podcast, the Creator Spotlight Podcast. 1:58 And I've, I mean- Oh, you have another podcast? I do have another podcast. I've interviewed 60 people or so in the last year, and, um, something around that, maybe a little less. 2:08 Anyways, I've reached out to plenty more than that, like probably 100 some, and nobody has ever asked if I pay a fee. 2:16 And this, I, this time it was like a, a PR agent or somebody who was the contact I could find, and I reached out. This person has like 900,000 followers across all the social media, so- Mm-hmm... whatever. 2:26 But, um, but they... I, you know, I sent my nice long, thoughtful like, "Hey, here's what I'd wanna talk about," et cetera. And the reply was just, "Would there be a fee for this person's time?" And I was shocked. 2:37 This is the first time this has happened. Um, but I bring it up because we did, in a way, I did pay Charlie a fee for his time, um, [laughs] by subscribing to The Fence. Congratulations, Charlie. But I was shocked. 2:49 Don't spend it all in one place. I was shocked that this has never happened to me before, that somebody has asked to pa- uh, for, for me to pay for the guest's time. 2:57 I think this goes back to our ongoing discussion about media literacy and the changing landscape, and I mean, we love to talk about what the difference between a journalist and a creator is- Mm... 3:07 or like a thought leader. Um, there are certain scenarios where I would be expected to be paid for my time, such as an honorarium. Mm-hmm. 3:16 Um, but even in certain scenarios that fall under that umbrella, so like a conference appearance, a panel appearance, or visiting a class- Yeah... I've never really made that assumption. 3:28 Um, and it, it more has to do with like what I think the historical precedent is for imparting knowledge to a certain audience rather than like what I personally think my time is worth. Yeah. 3:44 Um, I would always talk to somebody younger or in an educational environment for free if payment's not on the table. Um, 3:53 if it's a B2B context, if I know that, that the conference itself is ticketed, then I would expect to be paid or want to be paid. Um, and then with, I mean, with podcasts, like that is, uh, 4:09 creators who create media for the internet and are paid for it- Mm-hmm... as influencers have sort of like tr-troubled the history of what it means to make a media appearance as a journalist or as an expert. 4:26 And in the past, if you're appearing in the media, you're doing it for free because it's an extension of promoting your work, which is the journalism. Yeah. 4:37 But if you're a creator, your work is your appearance basically. Well, what's interesting too, this person is kind of a creator journalist. 4:44 I guess the case here though is maybe, maybe she's quite busy, uh, this person, and again, it was a PR agent who, who sent me this reply. Yeah. 4:52 So I, I get respecting your client's time and like trying to, trying to make money for them and o-obviously you're gonna ask, I guess. Um, they have a bigger audience than Creator Spotlight, so there's that. 5:03 So maybe it's like, well, this is an unequal value exchange, um, and they, maybe they wouldn't have asked if, if, if I was some, you know, quite large podcast. But anyway, I respect- I don't think it matters... 5:14 I respect the grift, I suppose, though I was, I was a little offended [laughs] as well. I don't know. 5:21 I think that like, I don't know that that mindset in the long term is the correct mindset for somebody who's trying to- Okay... make their way in media. 5:30 You know, if you're an influencer and your product is yourself, feel free to charge whatever you want, but if you want people to value your ideas, then you need to understand there's a framework for appearing to promote your ideas, um, within the current media ecosystem that- Sure... 5:45 should not be framed as an exchange of value. As soon as you frame it as an exchange of value, then you're gonna end up on the other side of it. Yeah. 5:53 I think, uh, we should [laughs] just go to, get to this week's episode. Yeah. Good chat. Good chat. Good chat. All right. Talk to you, Charlie. 6:04 [outro music]Charlie, I do want to thank you because I did subscribe to The Fence. I see. I've been meaning to do it for a while, honestly, honestly. 6:14 Uh, but then I had to do it before- Did you subscribe in print as well as digital? I did subscribe in print as well, though I made the mistake first of selecting the UK subscription, which is about half the price. 6:24 I think it's about thirty-five pounds. Um, and then I was like, "That's strange. There's no way they're gonna ship me all that stuff at that low, low, [chuckles] low price." Um, and you know, excellent customer service. 6:35 You, you emailed me directly to rectify the problem, refunded me. I selected the proper subscription. Um, so I just wanted to commend you on the record for, for your [chuckles] fantastic customer service. 6:46 Well, it-- genuinely, I mean, it is, it is... 6:49 That's like the one aspect of it I, I really, I really care about and I think is an advantage of doing something in print, is you kind of-- you're able to see what you've been making in the kitchen go out to the world and, you know, that's-- Yeah, it's, it's still-- I still manage that, most of the aspect of distribution myself. 7:10 Mm-hmm. Um, well, at least saying, you know, saying what, what's going where as opposed to individually packing them. And yeah, no, I, I'm, I'm, I'm very happy, um, to do that 'cause I, you know... I remember when, 7:23 you know, the only people who subscribed were my friends. [chuckles] So watching, watching its growth is, is, is a real- Your friends and Graydon Carter. Hmm. And Graydon Carter, yeah. Early supporter. 7:35 He was an early supporter, yeah. Have you read his memoir yet? When does it come out? No. Well, it's not out yet, but- No. I see that it's circulating. Have you read it? No. I need to get an ARC. 7:48 Okay, let's talk about the office. Um, how long- Yeah. How many issues into the magazine, into publishing the magazine did you get the office? 7:54 We got the office in issue-- It was in the summer of twenty twenty-one after we'd finished issue eight. Mm-hmm. 8:02 So we've been here for four years now, and the office is above, um, a very famous landmark in London called the Windmill Theatre, which is a, the oldest strip club in the United Kingdom. And it has been open 8:20 since before World War II, and there's a joke that we know. It ca- it, it was open throughout World War II, throughout the Blitz, and that they never closed and that they were never clothed. 8:31 Um- [chuckles] And back when Britain was a deeply, uh, conservative, you know, country, they got round the ban on nudity by, by not moving, by doing, um, an act of, by being frozen tableau, 8:49 um, you know, sort of as if they're acting on stage. By not windmilling as they did before. By not windmilling. [chuckles] Yeah. 8:56 Um, and the story of this was made into a film with Jude, starring Judi Dench called Miss Henderson Presents. But the Windmill has, has been, is currently, is currently the, the site of dispute because the freehold, 9:12 uh, the people who own the freehold are trying to lease it to Spam and Rhino- Ah... which I believe are an American strip club, yeah. So that's, uh- That's a bit of it. 9:20 Yeah, that's- Is this something you guys have been covering in The Fence? This sounds like a really important dispute. Yeah. I mean, it's quite, it's quite a big story. Yeah. 9:27 I mean, it's also just, just below us, so it's quite- Right... it's, it's quite hard to avoid when you're coming in in the morning. There's a- You truly have boots on the ground. [chuckles] Yeah. 9:36 But it, I mean, it's, it's, it's, um, and it's got these, got these very famous neon signs outside and everyone sort of knows, everyone sort of knows where it is. 9:45 Um, and it's on, we're on the street called Archer Street, which was in the, 9:52 again, in the thirties and forties, it's on the back of all the We- we're on the back of all the West End theaters where musicians would come and, um, try and f- get work and there's, there's, there's a couple of really fascinating documentaries about it. 10:08 And it's where the first jazz club that was in Britain, and today it's got, [chuckles] it's got a really terrible chain bar, uh, called Beer One, which is directly opposite us, quite generic, uh, restaurant. 10:24 And it- it's got this new place called Spud Express, which is a, a TikTok craze where they're selling, uh, baked potatoes with beans- Is this the one where it's like the guy is filming from the trailer and people come up and it's... 10:38 I've, I've seen these. There's like a line of like fifty people every morning. He gives the first person- It's baked-... and the last person a free one, but it's just a baked potato with beans- Yeah... and cheese. Yes. 10:47 Yes. That's exactly. Thank you. I'm so happy you've seen it. Beans and cheese? Nothing else? Well, butter perhaps. It's just a baked, it's a baked potat- it's a baked potato. 10:55 And, uh, yeah, so it's, it's, it's sort of w- we've got this... 10:59 We're on a street that's got this, you know, fascinating history and, but not a particularly, uh, ex- not particularly cool, um, but certainly a fascinating present, uh, present day, present reality. 11:12 Well, it's the perfect place for you guys to be. Yeah. Do you-- Is, is the rent really cheap? Uh, it doesn't seem like an indie, an indie rag, uh, [chuckles] would, would have an office. 11:22 I am gonna put down ten dollars before you continue speaking that Charlie's not actually paying for this office space. I... So I'll tell you. So it, so it was owned, uh, it was made into an, made into another... 11:34 This is a story of another film. 11:36 So the freehold is owned by Soho Estates, which was started by this guy called Paul Raymond, who worked at the Windmill and then set up a number of magazines, basically the UK versions of Penthouse, um- Lads mags... 11:52 and lads mags- Mm-hmm... jazz mags, porn mags. And he, his empire boomed in the 1970s. 12:00 Um, he became something of a celebrity, and what our offices are in the old, the old offices of h- of his empire.And so, but he, 'cause he made so much money in the 1970s, he also bought, uh, a lot of property in Soho. 12:19 Um, he probably, I think his estate now has a third of the property in Soho. I mean, it's, it's, uh, it's, his estate is worth in the billions. And Soho Estates, who own the freehold, 12:32 um, have given was, was the, the three floors, um, are given to creative businesses to maintain Soho's artistic character. So on our, on this next door office, we've got this gu- uh, um, sports agency called Hayters. 12:50 Um, there's a dude, Raven Smith, who's the... He's, um- The writer? The writer. Yeah. Hayters too. I, I feel like I've seen... I, I get the reels of like interviewing- Yeah... Mikel Arteta and such on my Instagram. 13:03 Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. 13:05 Uh, Raven, who's, you know, he's in industry, um, he's, he's also on this floor, and then up, up on the floors above, there's some people from, uh, like tailors and shirt makers and sculptors. 13:20 So it's, so yeah, it's, it's a nice, it's a nice, it's a nice little mix. Yeah. We are, we are paying rent, but not much. That's awesome. Yeah. Thank you for doing your part to preserve the culture of Soho. 13:30 [laughs] It's so important. Yeah. Um- I mean, I mean, yeah, I mean, thank, thank, thank you, thank you Soho Estates. 13:39 [laughs] Well, okay, the real reason we're here is that you launched a new newsletter called The Capital Letter. Speaking of the culture of Soho, this is, you know, about- London-specific newsletter... 13:50 London the city, real time- Mm... information of what people should be doing, seeing. Mm. Um, tell us how this came about. Is this based on like, content that you saw was particularly popular or resonating? 14:03 Is there a hole in the media market right now for something like this? Yeah. So we, I mean, I, I found having done The Fence for five years that I got to know London with an intimacy that I hadn't before, 14:21 partly by having to be here the whole time because of my job, and partly getting to know lots of people who know London really well, and much better than I did. Um, and then also I'd... Having not particularly 14:37 liked living in London for large periods of my life, I've really started to love it in the last, in the last five years. So I felt that from a personal perspective, I could do something 14:54 which I wanted to be kind of more, I guess... 14:58 It wa- I wanted to man- m- marry something that was functional with something that was also, dare I say, lyrical without trying too hard, and that I felt was the space that was open for us. 15:10 But the functionality I think was re- is really important. Um, there's this amazing book called Alternative London, which was by this guy called Nicholas Saunders, 15:22 who, um, Jonathan Nunn wrote this amazing long read about for The Guardian. And Alternative London is this guide in the 1970s which just lists all the things that you can do in London on the fly. 15:35 The best, absolute best places to buy antiques, the best places to buy cheap wine, how to get furniture for free. And what I thought was quite interesting was 15:49 in this kind of digital a- in the digital age where information is technically supposed to be free, people are much more zealous about gatekeeping their absolute best tips. 16:01 Um, and I've seen this a lot with people who run restaurants especially, um, where I know the tips they're giving aren't their, aren't their top tips. 16:10 You mean like the people who are being interviewed by Topjaw or whatever? Yeah. Vittles. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Vittles better not be holding back on me. I look vigorously through that newsletter. 16:22 [laughs] Um, yeah. No, Vittle, Vi- No, Jonathan gives his... Jonathan puts his, puts his, puts his, his favorite places in, absolutely. 16:30 Um, so yeah, we wanted, I f- I wanted to do like something that was really functional and really honest, and we're sort of, we're at, we're pulling up the drawbridge. 16:42 We're, we're not keeping the gate, is, is kind of, is g- So that was the first thing I wanted to do. Um, I'll give you like, yeah, I'll give you a more concrete example. 16:52 Like there's this, there's this place in Tooting, which is a really unglamorous bit of South London, which is where all the major fashion designers in London go to buy Italian vintage from the '70s, '80s, '90s, noughties. 17:08 Uh, my fiancée is a fashion designer, and that's where her and her friends from when they were at CSM went. That's where they still go today. But you wouldn't really, you don't really see that many stories about it. 17:20 It's something that people really do gatekeep. Mm-hmm. So it's things that, you know, it's, it's, um- Is Harriet gonna be upset if you blow, blow this wide open? No, I don't think she, I don't think she minds. 17:34 She buys- She's, she's bought enough stuff there already over the years. She's, she's bought, she's, she's bought enough stuff there. She gets enough. She's got, she gets enough free clothes from work. 17:41 I think she's, she's happy. So, so we, so there was that aspect to it, and then I think... 17:48 I mean, what I think is really interesting about, you know, London is if you go into Waterstones, which is, the big Waterstones here on the corner, which is the biggest 17:57 bookshop in Europe, and it's got the whole floor dedicated to London, like a, a quarter of it is about, you know, present day London. 18:08 Um, and the rest of it is dedicated to the history of London.So there seemed to be a really wide-open space for people to write about, you know, London and its history in a way that you can, uh, interact with it. 18:22 Um, so we just felt that there was, yeah, that there was lots of, uh, there are lots of things that people weren't doing. Um, and then that we had a few advantages in terms of our, our coverage of 18:36 pubs, our food and drink coverage, and our arts coverage is already really good, 18:43 and it'd also be a fun way of, you know, the, you know, the theater, theater coverage is definitely something that's in our whi-wheelhouse and something... I, I used to go to the theater all the time. I haven't been, 18:55 like, five years. A way of sort of reacquainting yourself with the city. Um, so yeah, there, there are loads of, there are loads of things where we kind of felt there's that nice balance of something that was... 19:09 we felt the audience was gonna really like and something that we're gonna like doing as well. So- Who i- who is the audience? So I mean, I, I asked that too, as in- Yeah... 19:19 I've been aware of you guys for a little while, certainly not for your whole lifetime. Yeah. I just subscribed. I'm, I'm part of the audience- Cool... internationally now. 19:25 Is it, like, how much of the audience is, would you say, uh, if, if you know, is in London versus the UK more broadly versus international? 19:34 I, I, I would say of our existing audience, I think about 40% is in London, um, and probably f- 45% is in the rest of the UK. 19:46 Um, 5% is in Europe and the rest of the world, and then 10% is in the States. But, um, but yeah, I, I just... 19:56 We had this con- exact conversation with, with Jonathan Nunn, 'cause he said, "I've got, we've got loads of American subscribers," but don't really do American coverage. 20:04 Um, but I think that that's what Is that Jonathan Phipps or different Phipps? Jonathan, Jonathan Nunn at Vettle. Mm-hmm. At Vettles. 20:11 Um, and I think, you know, that, that's a r- great aspect of American culture, how people, you know, they're interested in what's going on internationally. Mm-hmm. So what I wanted to, yeah, I mean, what I want to do is, 20:22 is create something that, with Capital Letter, that people who are coming to London for a period of time want to, will want to read. Yeah. 20:33 Um, so it does have, um, it does have an international reach in that regard- I think-... but it also has to be s- Sorry. Was I- No, you go ahead. 20:42 I want it, I want it also, obviously, has to be something that's authentic and absolutely true to people who are proud about having lived in London for a long time. Mm-hmm. Zealous Londoners, you might say. 20:52 I wanted to say about, like, the, the American relation to how Americans consume the UK and UK culture. Mm-hmm. 21:00 I feel like I, I, I think I'm, like, a part of this trend of, like, you know, I started watching the Premier League a couple years ago after the last World Cup. I was like- Mm... 21:09 oh, I wanna watch soccer, football more regularly. Mm. And so I was like, okay, I'll pick a team that some of my friends like, whatever, blah, blah, blah. And then I started drinking your Guinnesses, et cetera- Yeah... 21:19 blah, blah, blah. Um, and you know, now I'm getting all the- Your Guinnesses? You're giving him a lot of credit. Well, I wa- it's the proverbial your, you know, the royal your. [laughs] Um, but... 21:28 And, and, you know, I, I feel like so much of my, my content I get on social media is, is Brit- You got [laughs] your Schooner Score, um- I got-... and all these other- Yeah. I, I-... freaks. No. Yeah. Yeah. But okay. 21:40 But I gu- I guess the point I'm trying to make is, like, I don't know. 21:43 Is it just that I started watching a lot of soccer and thus, like, my cultural consumption started veering more UK, or do you think there is more this fascination or, like, current wave of, like, US obsession with UK culture? 21:57 I think there, I think there's a cultural interchange, right? Where I grew up playing, you know, 22:04 football and cricket, and all my friends played football and cricket, and as in soccer and cricket, and, you know, now lots of my friends who are sport, quite sports obsessed go to American football games when they come to London. 22:19 People watch the Super Bowl. People- That's so bizarre to me. I see that some- with so many, like, the footballers I follow- Yeah... like Harry Kane and stuff- Yeah... they're, like, obsessed with it, and it's so... 22:28 And I'm like, "Why are these people... Why do they love the Patriots?" Like, that's so bizarre, but it's the same. Yeah. It's the cultural exchange. Yeah. Yeah. 22:35 I think, I think foot- yeah, American football has, has been, um, a, a, a big breakthrough. Um, and I guess there's kinda, like, you know, there's, 22:46 there's, you know, like Brit pop in the '90s was kind of a reaction of the dominance of America's, uh, American, America culturally. Um, but I think now people are like, yeah, Britain's kinda, you know, 22:59 Britain's kind of in a more, s- in a prouder place culturally, not politically. Um, I think that's it. If I can, if I can generalize. But, uh [laughs] Yeah, Britain is brat. Yeah, Britain is brat. [laughs] So, so yeah. 23:15 It's, so I think that- Francis is shaking his head. He did not like that joke. Did you, do you da- were you, did you, did you have a brat summer, Daisy? [sighs] I mean, we all did. We didn't have a choice. 23:26 Um, but it- Yeah... ended pretty quickly in November. [laughs] Um, we're very- Yeah... post-brat. We're living in a post-brat- Yeah... society, unfortunately. But- Yes. Yes. 23:37 Well, I, everyone, everyone apart from Charlie xcx is living in a post-brat society. 23:41 I saw, I saw this, um, I, I've, I've been talking about reels I've seen on Instagram far too much on this podcast, as I- It's all right... as I always do. Uh, but I saw [laughs] this reel recently of an American podcast. 23:51 They were interviewing a British guy, um, and they were talking about how there's no dive bars in, in the UK, and you have, The Fence is publishing a book on English pub culture this year, right? Yeah. Yeah. 24:03 So that's, so that's, so that's one of our things, if I might be so arrogant. We [laughs]... 24:09 Well, my, my friend Jimmy, who does the, our pub coverage, and he does London Dead Pubs, which has become very big on-On, uh, TikTok and on Instagram, and he's Schooner Score's sort of nemesis. 24:23 He does these- Which one's the Mario? He does- Which one's the Mario? Is he the Mario? Jimmy is, Jimmy is, Jimmy is the Mario. Or is Schooner the Mario? Jimmy is the Mario, yeah. Mario. Jimmy does these sort of like... 24:31 Jimmy does these like... He's sort of good-looking and funny, and a brilliant writer, and does these, uh... He does these sort of Adam Curtis style short things about hidden London pubs that people really know about. 24:45 Um, so he, so he, so yeah, he's, um, well, he's wrote some pieces for us I think three years ago, and now there's been a noticeable uptick in, in, uh, pub coverage across the rest of the UK. 24:59 I just think it's one of those things that people just didn't realize you could, you could... People have opinions about. And they- That it was just such like a part of the furniture for so long. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. 25:09 Exactly. Um, and I think there's also, because clubbing, nightclubbing in the UK has... That industry has really cratered with the cost of living, with increased trends in sobriety, um, and many more. 25:27 Uh- Yeah, what is the vibe in London right now? And like, what's the worst type of person? [laughs] Schooner Score, correct? I mean, there's... Schooner, Schooner Score- Yeah... 25:36 Schooner Score is fascinating as well, 'cause he's sort of, he's pretending to be something he's not. He's, uh, he's not- I've tried to find his real name. I, I wanted to like what does... Like, find his LinkedIn. 25:44 It's called, it's called, it's called- What does he do for a living? He used to work in the oil industry. He's called Alex. Uh- That makes complete sense. Well- I knew... Uh, finance is kind of what I thought... 25:51 um, yeah. As we know from our conversation- Yeah... with the guys who wrote Industry, um, it's much harder to pretend to be something that you're not in London than it is in New York. 25:59 And he's also in- We're also in sort of- I've seen his videos where he goes on... He's on safari in, in Africa. Yeah. He's, he's in Australia. He's... I, I'm, I'm... I am fascinated by him. 26:08 I've watched far too many [laughs] of, of his videos. Yeah. He's called Alex Hen- he's called Alex Hendy. Um- Okay. Yeah, he's from, he's from North Lincolnshire, uh, which is where I'm from, and he went... 26:20 He was running a, he was running a, um, a business selling condiments just, uh, y- just after he was schools, out of... Just as he was out of high school. Um, so he's kind of like, he's kind of like his own creation. 26:35 He's kind of like something from like a 19th century novel. Hmm. Uh, at least I hope he is. I ma- maybe I'm making him sound more interesting than he is. Um- Were the condiments good? Well, I don't think so. 26:48 I mean, I think the business cratered, so. Yeah. Well, I've, I've got an article on him in The Sun up. Yeah. And from what I can see, he's the, he's the owner of three businesses. 27:01 Uh, as of June 21st, 2024, he assumed the position of director and chief executive at Schooner Social Limited. Um, he is at the helm of his own social media and digital marketing enterprise. 27:14 Uh, he is also the director and chief executive of AJ Strategic Investments Limited, um, and the position of director and associate at Olivia Court Residence Limited. So I'm understanding he's a l- he's a landlord. 27:28 I think that is from when you live, when you all live in a, um, somewhere together. You- Yeah. Those, tho- those tenant associations are usually on Companies House- Okay... in the UK. 27:43 So I imagine he probably, maybe he owns a propert- maybe he owns a, he owns an apartment in the building. This is like a UK equivalent of people who just like collect LLCs. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Which that, that whole... 27:55 I feel like that culture is so different though in the UK. It's, it's harder to, to do that, harder to y- It's not cool to be an entrepreneur, is it? No. Is it cool to be an entrepreneur- You're not-... 28:03 in London, Charlie? There is a, there is a tend- there's an entrepr- in answer to your question about like who's super... 28:08 There is an entra- there is like an, an entrepreneurial energy in the city at the moment, which I think is, is... 28:14 You know, you see people hustling much more visibly in a way that you didn't 15, you know, even five years ago. Like with the, with the- Yeah, you don't even bring your laptop home. 28:27 I've tried to like email you after 5:00 PM. [laughs] It's not true. It is true. Uh, I le- I lea- I leave my laptop in the office. Yeah, yeah. I just don't car- like carrying it around like a turtle. 28:37 Um, and- Is that a Conclave reference? No. No, no, no. [laughs] It's a, it's a, it's an animal reference. Okay. Um- Well, the turtle is carried- Have you ever heard of carrying a turtle? 28:46 A turtle is carried around the Vatican in the Conclave f- film, so. Oh, right. I haven't seen it yet. 28:52 But yeah, there's, there's, there's like an entrepreneurial, there's an entrepreneurial vibe to the city, like people... Yeah, you got, you've got people that are like doing the tuk tuks. You kind of... 29:03 It feels, it feels kind of like progressive- People stealing phones, that's entrepreneurial. People stealing... Well, it is entrepreneur- it, it is entrepreneurial. It is? 29:10 Um, you know, uh, one of my colleagues had his car stolen this morning, um, and the police, uh, he was on the ph- speaking to Sha- uh, Seamus, and the police at lun- at, at lunch said, um, "Yeah, sorry, we're, we're not gonna take any fur- no further action. 29:25 The case is closed." Uh- The police are not very entrepreneurial, to be clear. Sorry, Seamus. The police are not entrepreneurial. Seamus was the subject- Sorry, Seamus... uh, was the inadvertent subject of a viral, 29:35 uh, British television clip, right? Oh, what the... The, uh, Irish. Irish, yeah. Well, yeah. Yeah, there was, um, a not particularly 29:48 intelligent, uh, Irish rugby player called, but very sweet, called Tommy Bowe, um, who has pivoted into being a television host. And he was the tel- the, uh, the main host was go- saying, "Uh, 30:07 um, we're gonna speak to Seamus O'Reilly, uh, about his life with having 10 siblings." And, and, uh, Tommy Bowe went, "10 siblings?" [laughs] "And how they coped after their mother died." 30:20 And it c- like cut to Tommy's fa- Tommy's face, and obviously he was just like, "Oh my God."So Ashton please say- I have seen- But you know Seamus... that is very good. Yeah. You have seen that? Yeah. That's Seamus. 30:29 Yeah. Yeah. You have to read his memoir, it's fantastic, and he's been writing some incredible columns. Um- Mm. Think I linked to him maybe in the Irish Examiner in Dirt recently. But I absolutely loved the memoir. 30:44 Um- Mm. What was it, what's the memoir called? I f- Did You Hear Mammy Died? Did You Hear Mammy Died? Because that was another, I mean- Yeah. 30:53 I guess spitting something out insensitive when you're like a small child is a little different than when you're like a professional podcaster. But he was going up- Yeah... 31:01 to people at his mom's funeral and saying, "Did you hear Mammy died?" Yeah. I think- Um, a- Child... yeah, yeah... just a very small child. Yeah. Right. I think he, he was six. I think he probably was. Perhaps. 31:13 Perhaps, with the small little bow tie. Uh, it's just such an incredibly touching book and uh- Yeah... yeah. He's a father now too, and he has some great tweets about fatherhood. 31:22 And also, I, I'm realizing now that Seamus has contributed like really a disproportionate amount, especially being from a small country, to, um, internet virality because he also is the author of a viral Twitter thread about being incredibly high at his job during the vision, visit of, what was it, the Irish... 31:44 Yeah, the then, the former Irish, uh, president, Mary McAleese. President. Mm. Yeah. Yes, and this recirculates like annually. Yeah. 31:52 Not only that, I think, I mean, I, I don't, Seamus is with, I think would talk about it very ha- has done very happily, like, in public. I mean, that's kind of how he got his writing career. 32:04 He was working in an office job. Wow. And then- I didn't realize that preceded that. Yeah, and then he did this, did this thread, and then he got asked to do a couple of jobs by, by, uh, some editors. And 32:21 after, like, he kept on tweeting throughout that, and I think after six months he was able to have enough work come together, do that parenting column for The Observer, 32:32 um, that he was able to, yeah, he was able to le- He, he was doing, um, a co- I don't know exactly what he was doing at, in his boring office job, but it, it w- it wasn't something he wanted to be doing. 32:43 [laughs] So- Kinda like that movie Zola. Yeah, which- Where they made a movie after the Twitter Like, honestly, not that far off from the Zola situation. 32:51 One thing I wanted to ask about, I mean, I always, if I try to ask something like this when we have another, um, you know, publisher on, but like what, what's an a quintessential, like, Fence story? And 33:04 what of the stories that you've published do you feel like most embodies the ethos of the magazine for people who haven't read it yet? I, I think the, the sort of ur Fence story is one- Mm-hmm... 33:16 that John Phipps did in the summer of 2020, five years ago, um, where he interviewed a lot of people with terrible names like Adolf Hit- Hitler- [laughs]... Jeffrey Epstein, and Harvey Weinstein. 33:33 [laughs] What their life is like having that name. And he got a suite of really funny and largely quite moving responses. 33:49 And, yeah, I think it, it ends with somebody, with Jeffrey Epstein, not that one, responding to him saying, "Sorry John, I don't really understand what you're asking for here." 34:03 [laughs] Um, so it's kind of, it's, so that was a, uh, 'cause as, 'cause he didn't, he didn't, hadn't occurred to him that there was some duality in being also sharing the name J- with, um- Of course... Jeffrey Epstein. 34:16 Yeah. [laughs] That sounds great for him. I would love his brain. Yeah. That's definitely one of our, our pieces. And then like the one when we asked the Nobelists loads of silly questions, like asking 34:29 the Nobel winner for chemistry in 2022, you know, who the most beautiful woman he's ever seen is. You know, that- [laughs]... that, that, that- Nobel Prize for the most beautiful woman in the world. Yeah. Yeah. 34:42 And for it. Yeah. Um, so I think- Well, the piece that we syndicated, I think, was it Ella Foxmartin's piece about being a chic young divorcee. Yeah. That went- That was Róisín... that was very popular with our audience. 34:53 Róisín. Yeah. That was Róisín, like, who's, who's- Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah. Sorry. I can't choose. You, yeah, it's fine. You can't, you don't have to know, you can't know two, two piece, two publications intimately. 35:05 One is enough. You've got your own one to remember the writers for. Um, you know- That's very thoughtful... Róisín, Róisín's piece about being a divorcee, that was, that was a fantastic piece for us. 35:14 Um, I knew, just knew, knew it was going to... I'm sure you know that feeling when you publish something and you just know it's going to get a great reaction, and a unilaterally great reaction as well. 35:29 Do you sometimes publish stuff, Daisy, where you're worried that you're like, "Hmm, I think some people might-" Ella wrote the piece Icarus Also Flew. Yeah. Mm-hmm. 35:36 Which was another great piece about relationships for The Fence. So I'm not so far off. Yeah. But- No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I wasn't saying that you were. Um, but they, 35:45 yeah, the, we, we, I really, I really love doing personal essays and just trying to make the prose really taut and, you know, each, each sentence, you know, not a word wasted. Yeah. So I think it's this sort of, 36:00 it's a mode of writing which obviously is, as the name suggests, is indulgent. But also I think- Tell us about you as an editor. Like, how do you approach that side of the work? 36:10 Well, I think the most important job of editing is, is, is commissioning. Mm-hmm. I agree. 36:15 And I think you've gotta, you've gotta make sure that you've got the right subject, that, that the person you've commissioned has got enough time, has got the resources, understands it well, isn't going to be-You know, it doesn't feel like they're being compelled to do something. 36:34 And then I think as, I'm sure you, as I'm sure you know, Daisy, it's like people have different processes where some people like texting you, um, updates and that's part of what works for them. 36:47 Some people love texting me. Yeah. But not always. Yeah. Some peop- Yeah. Those two. And some people, you know, just kind of like how a cat, you know, drops a mouse as a present will just- [laughs]... 37:00 you know, drop a 1,500 word to perfect piece which requires- And it was supposed to be 800 words. Yeah. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. It's just like a perfect... 37:09 Some people are just really, some people just, you know, just drop, drop back into your inbox like two months later with a per- perfect piece. Um, so I think that's... 37:19 Yeah, I try not to, with editing, I try not to be too... And I also try not to be too, you know, I want to do like one, two rounds of edits really. Mm-hmm. I don't wanna, I don't wanna drag the process on or kind of 37:35 make it into a sort of a, a competition where we're trying to flex. 37:41 I wanna, I want a writer to score a goal and I want us to score a goal, and that's why the commissioning process is really important 'cause it, you make, you know, you need to make the writer remember that you're on the same team together and you've got the same goal. 37:55 Right. Like your filtering's happening sort of upfront rather than- Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I feel the same way and I also, like, I don't think I've... 38:04 I've very rarely done more than two passes on a piece 'cause like at that point- Yeah... it's like, well, I'm bored. We're not gonna improve this [laughs] that much. Like- Yeah... 38:13 it's, it's, also it's like, it is somewhat binary where something either feels publishable by Dirt or not and that's kind of already- Yeah... determined in the subject- Yeah... writer pairing. 38:24 Um- 'Cause you're trying to get that right before you started. Right. Like and if- Yeah... we're, we're drafting into five passes then something else has like gone terribly wrong. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exact- exactly. 38:34 I, yeah, I would ra- I rather, I would say rather spike pieces and just pay people- Mm... um, than, than... 'cause it's also everyone who works for me is work- is working or works with me rather is working 38:50 one or two days a week- Mm... so they were just in the office earlier and so I, you know, I wanna, I wanna be care- careful of their time as well. And it's quite demoralizing if you spend, 39:04 you know, two hours making a piece using all your skills to make a piece from like 6 out of 10 to 7 and a half out of 10 and then, you know, it goes online and it's doesn't really, doesn't really bang. Mm-hmm. 39:20 So I think it's, so yeah, generally I, I try and be wary of the resources we have. Um, but yeah, I, I- Are you spiking a couple like every issue? Uh, yeah, I probably spike about 10, 15 pieces a year. A year. 39:36 Um- Oh, that's not bad. Yeah. How many, how many do you publish a year? Like 100, 100 I'd say. Maybe, maybe, maybe like 90, 100. Yeah. Mm-hmm. So, so yeah, I mean, I want to, I want it's important that the magazine 39:52 feels like somewhere that a really good writer wants to have a byline in, which it does, but also feels like somewhere that somebody feels they could pitch to and they could get in the magazine. 40:05 So sort of like maintaining that identity is, is really important to me. So yeah, the flip, I mean the flip side of, of, of, you know, the commissioning being really important is it's also, 40:16 you know, you've gotta find a, you've gotta find a way of, of taking punts on people who aren't known quantities- Mm-hmm... um, as well. 40:27 I mean, I, and I guess the diff- I mean the get, the difficult thing of, the difficult thing in the publishing industry which 40:33 lots of people don't really say out loud is that, you know, throughout the whole industry both in England and America, you know, people are [laughs] people write loads of stuff and they don't always get, they don't always get paid for it. 40:45 Mm-hmm. I mean, we always c- we, we, if we commission something we always pay somebody for it, but that's not, that's not the truth, uh, across, across the board. It's, um, 40:55 it's hard, it's hard, it's hard, it's hard in, in that way. Um- I think though like starting a magazine is an act of optimism. Yeah. Um, and I feel the same way about 41:08 Dirt and, you know, new sub-brands that we've been launching and we have more coming and it always feels like an act of optimism. Um, but I'm curious if like you feel optimistic about the future right now 41:23 generally- Yeah... and if you have cynicism like how are you handling that through this platform that you have? [laughs] It's a very good question, Daisy. Uh- Thank you so much. 41:32 Actually, well, Francis wrote it down but I asked it so- Actually I stole it from a previous interview you did four years ago. Yeah, so I'm the assist. You're, no you're the assist, I'm the score. Go on- Yeah... Charlie. 41:43 Sorry. Um- Too much football talk. [laughs] You're very, you're good, great, great pace together. It's natural rapport. Um- Thanks... 41:51 the, the, I feel like I'm happy that we're, we've got a, an established brand- Mm-hmm... to use corporate speak. 41:59 Um, and yeah, it's no secret that what we're doing is doing more newsletters and that's gonna be the way we, we expand and that we keep the fence as kind of like the print flagship- Mm-hmm... 42:15 and expand digitally, um, through doing different paid newsletters. Um- Is that where you're seeing the most revenue growth as well around- That is where we're seeing the most revenue growth. 42:26 That's margins I'm pretty sure. Yeah. Yeah, and the margins are, are- We talk about that a lot on this podcast like it's not a trick question. Mm. 42:31 I think that's like-There's a strategy alignment there that's happening for a lot of people Well, and I think, yeah, and I think the thing is, is, you know, Defense is £7.50 on the newsstand, right? 42:44 And if the magazine's on the newsstand, you've gotta be realistic where if the New Yorker is £7.99, what's the average consumer gonna choose, right? 42:55 You know, you've gotta, you, you, you can't, you can't say, "Oh, it's an independent magazine, it should... We know we don't..." The consumer isn't gonna, doesn't really care about, doesn't really care about that. 43:05 So if you're doing, if you're doing something which is current affairs, general interest like we are, you know, you can't, you can't price your product much higher than your peers. Whereas... 43:19 And people also have a warped sense of val- consumers have a warped sense of value because all the other print magazines can print hundreds of thousands of copies- Mm-hmm... 43:28 have special subscriber deals, have all this advertising revenue which isn't available to us. Um- And they're either so cheap or they're, like, $40. Yeah. Right. 43:38 So, so, so, so I think, I think the thing is with, with newsletters, people are like, "Okay, will it just cost £30 a year? Will it just cost £40 a year? Great, that's fine." 43:49 They're like, "Well, this is, this is how much it costs. Okay, I'll pay it." Yeah, for each issue is, is the costs of distribute, the cost of distribution are now our, our single biggest expenditure. 44:00 So the price of success and all of that. But, um- That's why I was so shocked when I, when I bought the subscription. I was like, "It's £35-" Yeah... "and they'll ship it to the US? That's, that can't be right." 44:10 [laughs] It was odd. [laughs] I've done some international shipping recently, and it's, it's hard. It's- Mm-hmm. Yeah. But you don't wanna cut people off. You wanna have a truly global product. Yeah. 44:21 But, um- Are you, are you trying to get to a point where you can hire another person full time? 'Cause I believe it's just you full time, right? It is just me full time. Uh, yeah, yeah, you know. 44:30 Um, so, um, my colleague Kieran is, is, is working, um, is gonna be working a few more days, um, and doing a few more business things with me, um, which is good. Bec- um, but yeah, no, I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm... We... 44:46 Our plan for this year is to do this book about, the book about pubs, explore launching another newsletter, uh, a- a- after Capital Letter for next year. 44:57 Um, and we've done, got, we've signed with CAA, and we've got some exciting things happening in the world of video. 45:07 The books model makes sense to me, too, in that, like, that just makes me think this past weekend I was at Mast Books in the East Village. Yeah. And they had, like, 10 different books by Apartamento there. Mm-hmm. Yeah. 45:18 Yeah. Exactly. So, so yeah, we wanna, we feel that, uh, we could do, like, a book every two years. Mm-hmm. And we've made the book about pubs m- really quite good. [laughs] Who's the publisher? Uh, Penguin, Ebury. 45:32 Mm-hmm. Um- Nice... which is an, which is an old imprint of Penguin, I think. Yeah. Um- That makes sense. But yeah, to circle back on the original question, Daisy, I'm, I'm, I am, I'm, I'm br- I'm broadly, 45:43 I'm worried [laughs], I'm worried about the state of the, of, I'm worried about the global situation, but I'm not particularly worried about, about The Fence. Um, what about you? Are you, are you worried about 45:58 Dirt and- No, I feel the same way. I feel like- Yeah... I, the way that I feel about the world is really a lot of concern and negativity. Mm-hmm. 46:08 But I do feel empowered within this platform that I've built and carved out to continue to- Yeah... deliver things to people that are interesting, beautiful, enriching, relevant. Um- Mm-hmm. 46:24 You know, maybe, maybe you and I can do an abroad exchange where I'll come run Dirt out of London for a month, and you can come run out of the New York suburbs. Yeah. 46:32 Well, my, my offer to you is a little bit less enticing 'cause we don't have an office. But [laughs] um, I think there's something here. [laughs] Yeah. 46:41 How do you, how do you manage your, um, your employees that are just working from home? I don't know. They're all afraid of me. No, I'm kidding. Uh- Yeah... I think that, uh, people who work out, like, 46:55 well just, it's a s- sort of a self-selection thing. Like- Yeah... their way of working aligns with my way of working asynchronously. Mm-hmm. 47:04 And, you know, even if somebody comes in as an intern, if they're, like, really good at working that way with me and anticipating my needs- Mm-hmm... then I just keep them. 47:13 Like Walden, you know, he started as an intern, and now he's, like, a contributing editor- Mm-hmm... because he and I were able to work that way. If somebody didn't like that way of working, um, I think, 47:26 you know, we would have, we would have a good relationship, but they probably would stick around less. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Do you, do you, do you have people working full time, though? Nobody full time, no. Yeah. 47:37 It's similar to you. Um, it's challenging. It's a little l- Yeah. Do you get lonely? It's a little lonely. I guess you're less lonely if you have an office. 47:45 Yeah, I do, I do get, I do get, I do get lonely doing all the, doing a lot of the admin, and then also, you know, there's just, like... 47:53 I mean, you have to do a lot of stuff that especially sort of, you know, meeting and greeting, which is quite hard work. And I think it's the role switching where you go from writing and editing, 48:08 host, you know, managing, and sort of, you know, listening to people's needs and then having to do, you know, a lot of administration. Also kind of try- having to sort of be charming and be funny. 48:23 See, I cut out the charming and funny part, and it's saving me a lot of energy. Really? So maybe you should... Yeah, you can start cutting corners there on your personality. [laughs] It was a lot of work, to be honest. 48:33 Don't try. Um, so I think that's kind of-That's kind of... Yeah. I think it's, it's, it's hard in that regard. 48:40 I think it's like there is the challenge of using different parts of your brain, but I think the other thing- Mm... about it is actually... And Charlie, I feel like you're sort of like hinting at this. 48:48 Like, a lot of the pride comes from doing the admin part well. Yeah. Yeah. But you can't really talk about it to other people. There's not really any status in it. 48:58 It's not something that you can really share or even like brag about. Yeah. 49:01 Like, when I go through the finances and I can see, "Hey, we're gonna make it through the next six months, and I'm gonna move this here and move this here, move this here,"- Yeah... 49:10 arguably feel more of a sense of pride than like when I edit an article. But if I try to like go to dinner and tell my friends, like, "Oh, I made a spreadsheet today," it's really- [laughs]... it's not that exciting. 49:21 And so then I try to, I push externalizing and sharing into other decisions. Like, "Hey, look at these three logo possibilities I just got sent." Yeah. Like, "What do you think?" And I put like a lot of, um, 49:33 I put a lot of like emotional weight on that interaction because here's something that I can externalize and share, and invite my friends to like make decisions about. And I think they're like, "Oh, okay, Daisy." 49:44 You know, it's... It feels disproportionate to what I want to share, and I think that that's where the loneliness comes from. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I think, I think that, I think in a lot of those... It's weird. 50:00 I've got, I've got very co- I'm very confident doing stuff that I didn't think I'd be good at three years ago. Like mana- managing and 50:10 giving notes or editing notes to, you know, people who were like childhood ico- icons of mine. Mm-hmm. 50:18 But there's certain things that I still kind of feel [laughs] like I'm, I'm 12 or 13 years old when I'm doing, you know, like when... 50:27 I'm not, I, I find sort of, you know, hosting multiple people who aren't, you know, for a, for a thing, for events, I find that quite stressful. And yeah, I find that like... 50:40 Yeah, people don't really wanna, people don't really want to hear, people don't really want to hear about your struggles when you've got a semi-successful startup. 50:50 They want to hear about, they wanna hear about, you know, funny stories. Um- Mm. And yeah, there's... So you're right, there is, there is, there, there, there is, there is a lone- there is a loneliness to it. 51:00 And I think also, I think you can also self-martyr a bit by- Mm... you know, working, working too long and not having a division between work life, social life. 51:15 Um, and that's one thing I've, I've really tried to get better at- Oh, I am the biggest self-martyr... recently. It is my hugest- Yeah... flaw and, um- Yeah. Get down from the cross, we need that wood. 51:26 [laughs] I was about to reference the same tweet. Um, I saw that tweet and I was like, "Damn, that's me. I... Foof." Yeah. I'm feeling a lot of self-awareness at the moment. Yeah. 51:36 Um, it's such a double-edged sword though, right? Because people still want you to do what you're doing for them. Yeah. Um, they just want you to be less of a martyr about it, and I'm like- Yeah... 51:46 you can't have one without the other, baby. Yeah. 51:49 Well, my par- my parents do a good one with me where I sort of wanna go home intermittently and I'm like, "Sorry, I've, I've gotta work," or if it's a Sunday I get, "I'm sorry, I've got to, gotta do some emails." 52:00 My, my mom calls me President Zelenskyy. She's like, "Oh, President Zelenskyy, you know- [laughs]... you're just organizing, are you organizing re- replacement missiles?" You know? 52:09 [laughs] Which I think is, which I think is, is a, is a good one, 'cause it's always- Yeah... it's good to kind of be reminded that what you're doing is, is in the grand scheme of things not that important. 52:18 Obviously, it couldn't be more important in the passage of your own life. Yeah. But it's good to, it's good to be aware of how you kind of, how can, how one can come across to other people. 52:27 Well, and you happen to be talking- Uh... to two Americans that actually do think what Zelenskyy's doing is important, so [laughs] I'll go on the record and say he has a very important job and deserves respect. 52:38 Me, I deserve- Yeah... respect, but my job, less important. [laughs] Maybe we should, uh- Yeah... end there. I don't know. We should end it there. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much. 52:46 I have to say I really, I really enjoyed that. I could, I, I generally don't enjoy... I'm looking forward to these things ending. I could've... I was, I was, I was really having a good time there. Thank you so much. 52:57 You guys have really cracked it, cracked the code. Thank you for saying that. Well, we're gonna cut that- Uh... and use that as a commercial. We'll use that, and anybody- [laughs]... 53:05 listening to, listening right now, why don't you go and subscribe to The Pence? 53:12 [outro music]
