Transcript 0:00 [upbeat music] Welcome back to Tasteland. I am your co-host, Francis Zehrer. And I'm Daisy Alioto. And Daisy, who are we talking to today? Today we're talking with Colin Nagy. 0:16 He is a travel and hospitality writer, most regularly at Skift and Monocle. Um, he's also the co-creator of the excellent Why Is This Interesting? newsletter, and he's a serial strategy executive currently at [beep]. 0:30 Yes, I am excited to talk to him. I'm a big fan of the newsletter, particularly the Monday Media Diet, uh, column. Oh, yeah, I've done one of those. Have you done one? No, I have not. 0:39 Uh- Oh, we'll bring that up to him... though I'm sure we'll rectify that. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. [laughs] We'll bring that up. Um, I really enjoyed Matt Klein's recent, recent one there. It was a good one. 0:47 Oh, I gotta go back and... Sometimes I miss them, but Matt Klein is a fa- fan, uh, friend of the pod. [laughs] Friend of the pod. I don't know if he's a fan. We can Fan of the pod. [laughs] Fan of the pod. Pod fam. 0:56 Yeah, sure. Pod fam sounds like a, um, a startup where they offer you, uh, prepackaged community services for your podcast. It sounds horrible. I'm sure there's like 10 different people doing that right now. Mm-hmm. 1:10 Pod fam, uh, if you wanna work. [laughs] They're all autonomous AI agents. [laughs] We create an autonomous AI agent community for your podcast to promote it. Um, anyways, Daisy, what's up in dirt world? 1:22 Uh, what is up in dirt world? Well, dirt world is moss world this week- Mm... because our collaboration with P.F. Candle went live. Um, if you go to the P.F. 1:31 Candle company site, under bundles they now offer the Girl Moss bundle, which is a really cool combination of existing products that they had- Mm... 1:39 that kind of fit into, um, the meme that came out of my viral 2022 tweet, the girl mo- How viral did that tweet go?... girl boss is dead. I don't have the most current numbers- [laughs]... 1:51 but it crossed over to Instagram. There's fan art. Like, just trust me, it's viral. Um, anyway, so there's an amber moss candle. They have enoki cedar, uh, incense, and then a diffuser in the geranium moss scent. Mm-hmm. 2:06 And all of these scents are amazing. They go really well together, and I like that it's like you're not getting three candles or three incense. You're getting, like, a little bit of each. Yeah. Um, 2:16 so check that out if you're in the market. Mm-hmm. I d- I went to Magazzino yesterday. Do you know what that is? 2:22 Uh, no, but I did see it on your Instagram, and you have, I think, talked about it here before as a big fan of it when I, when I spoke about the... Well, after I went to the, the Barnes Foundation in Philadelphia- Mm... 2:34 I think you were talking about it. Yeah. It's one of my favorite places in the Hudson Valley, and I haven't been there- Mm... since they built their extension, which is a cafe. Mm. 2:42 Um, I joined so that members can go to the cafe, and some other privileges. Mm-hmm. And, um, it was my first time going to the cafe building, and it was so beautiful. 2:52 Like, you really feel like you're in the Tuscan countryside- Yeah... 'cause it's nestled into a hill in Cold Spring. Um, Cold Spring? Yeah. And they have- [laughs] Whatever... Sardinian donkeys on site. 3:04 [laughs] Oh, okay, yeah. The donkeys didn't wanna come say hi to me this time, but- That's a pity... it was cool. It was very cool. Mm. You should get there, I think. I should. It is, like it's- As it warms up- Yeah... 3:14 you can bring a picnic. Um- Mm. I, I only had a, a americano and croissant, but I wanna go back and, like, try their full menu. Yeah. Is... You know, I, I never... The... 3:26 It's never really good though, the food at a museum. Well, I think this one might be good though. Mm. Oh, okay. This might be the exception. Yeah. 3:35 I did see in Feedme that they are redoing the catering at The Met, and that the- Mm... restaurant group that has Via Carota might be behind it. Did you see that as well? No, but, uh, the... 3:47 At the Whitney, Franchette did the kitchen, which I haven't, I haven't been to the Whitney in a couple years. Uh, but my sister went last time she was visiting, and she said it was really good. 3:55 Uh, anyways, Colin is now with us. I gonna let him in. [upbeat music] Wait, I just had a million-dollar idea. It's called podcast candle. 4:12 [laughs] And it's a candle that you light when you're on a podcast. I think that's, I think that's an interesting... Be- because, because we have, uh, we have s- we have everything is now a podcast, right? Mm-hmm. 4:24 So you have the om- omnipresent podcast mics and everything. I, I think I wrote a Witty about this back in the day where it's like 4:31 in the same way that Gary Vaynerchuk would always have people, like, following him around, like, camera... like, videotaping him. Yeah. Like, having a podcast mic in the shot a- automatically, like, imbues authority. 4:43 Yes. You know? I, oh, I, um- Image... 4:45 Podnews, I think they're called, which is a good, like, daily industry newsletter about pod- [laughs] about the podcast industry, their issue this morning w- led with something where this guy is, like, recording a podcast in an elevator for an hour, and I think he was, he was talking about, like, Hamilton or something. 5:01 But the point is, he, like, on one side of the elevator he had a camera set up, and then he's stood on the other side, and people come and go between him, and he just spends an hour in this elevator recording. Anyway. 5:11 Do you think he would wanna collaborate on podcast candle? I think elevators need candles as well. They're often very smelly. I, I think they would... That's like a, a, an air quality hazard. 5:19 Um, and by the way, when Colin says Witty- Podcast... Witty is short for Why Is This Interesting, which is also very witty. Mm. I think the... 5:27 I do think that the mic in the frame aligns with this idea of para content that we've been talking about, and- Yeah... Ruby wrote a great piece about this. 5:35 My mic is out of frame right now, but- I'm feeling really self-conscious as the only in-frame mic on the, on the, [laughs] on the Riverside here. It's complicated. You, you, you sound great. Well, that's the idea. 5:46 But if you take it to its logical conclusion, like, 5:50 if somebody being in a studio imbues a sense of authority and legitimacy, um, you know, as a shorthand, I think it's like that's the sort of Gen Z equivalent of boomer brain where it's like, "Well, I saw it on Facebook."Like, I think the Gen Z and alpha equivalent of that is like, "Well, I saw it on a podcast." 6:09 And it's like, first of all, that doesn't mean anything. Second of all, you didn't even see it on a podcast, you saw it on two people talking with mics. [laughs] You know what I mean? Like, that's crazy, man. 6:20 It's, it's, it's credibility laundering because- Yeah... you now see all the fucking ads being like, "You know, I gotta tell you, I was really having this hard time finding a great workout shirt, but thanks to..." 6:31 [laughs] You know, and, and it's like, it, it, it's like the conversational framing and like it, at, as a device it's pretty powerful. 6:39 So I like the, I like the point of the sort of Boomer credibility of, "I saw it on Facebook," now it's like, "I'll buy anything just because someone credibly talked about it with a podcast in f- you know, in the frame." 6:51 Totally. I love this idea of credibility, uh, laundering. Yeah. And I saw this tweet last week from this person, Ted Childish. Uh, uh, it was like a kind of a, a slide deck, how to industry plant yourself. 7:03 And I'll, I'll just read like the slides. Sounds pretty childish to me. So number one, start your own fan accounts. Number two, build narratives around yourself on external platforms like Reddit and Discord. 7:13 Three, fabricate tweets that profile you. And then there's... I don't have to read these all. There's quite a few. It goes, it goes all the way up to 12. 7:20 There's have people create deep dive videos about you, be mentioned by an artist in their song, be, [laughs] be a guest or mentioned on a podcast, and so on and so on. This is... Th- there's this guy, what's his name? 7:33 Aman Gazdi or whatever. He's like one of these kind of like planets that exist outside of the, the, the toxic Tate universe. Mm-hmm. 7:41 And he's this guy that just like literally was, like built like a company just like doing ads for people. But he did this thing- Yeah... 7:49 the early kind of Gary Vee playbook of like, "I'm gonna just have a bunch of profile things e- everything I do, and I'm just gonna have it sliced up and atomized across TikTok and social media." 8:03 And it's really, it's super garish. It's like- Yeah... "Here I am in Loro Piana. These are my favorite shoes at Loro Piana," and like here. 8:10 And he would like rent a place in Dubai, but like do a walkthrough as if it was his own place. Mm-hmm. And so it's exactly this sort of like, um, the fun house mirror. Flooding the zone. Flooding the zone. Mm-hmm. 8:21 And, and I think that the flooding of the zone is like also how a lot of the Tate stuff metastasized, right? 8:30 Because I think that he built this system where like a lot of the acolytes were being incentivized to like repost clips to like- Mm... get points or something in his like shitty thing. Oh. And so that... 8:43 My, my question is is like when is there a margin call on these sort of things? 8:46 And I, and I think we're like r- almost reaching the margin call on this because the Galloways of the world, it's like it comes off as so fucking pedantic of like having just all these, "Actually, what the men today need to be thinking about." 9:01 [laughs] And it just, it comes off as so fucking pedantic, and it's s- it's everywhere. And it's like it almost has the opposite of the intended thing, which is the, um, credibility and influence. Mm. 9:15 It actually chips away at your credibility and influence, right? So- What, what comes next? I don't know, man. That, that's the, uh, I think, I've been thinking about this a lot. I think the... 9:27 Noah wrote a piece today in Why Is This Interesting about how if there's gonna be hard paywalls around- Mm... everything, 9:37 the new like influence sphere is like almost like a new branded content renaissance where you're like doing very, very well-written things outside- Yeah... 9:45 of the paywall because that's the things that the LLMs are gonna be ingesting. And, and like if you get the tagging right and this and that. 9:52 So if you're like a think tank that's trying to tilt the discourse on a topic or if you're like a travel brand that wants to come up as like the best whatever in whatever city, like I think that it's, it's almost the new, 10:07 pardon the reductionist, uh, phrasing, but it's almost like the new like SEO in a way. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, and, and I think that the early, 10:17 the early riff on this is like, oh, AI is gonna generate all this like slop and bad writing. I actually think that like this could be a renaissance for like very good writing- Mm-hmm... um, 10:28 written by people that can also, uh, that can also like affect the broader narratives and the, the layers in which people are like inter- interfacing with information. So I, I find that to be like very, very intriguing. 10:41 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. As an influence vector, right? Mm. Like, the next phase of this might not be Podcast Bro manufactured podcast. It might be like people that are front running the market with this sort of thinking. 10:54 And, you know, and obviously there'll be a margin call on how quickly that, um, happens, right? So... Yeah. 11:02 I wrote a white paper over the summer for like a prospective taste coin that would essentially act as page rank for- Yeah... um, 11:10 influencers and publishers, where it would, your accumulation of taste would signify to the LLM in the same way SEO did to Google that you are both credible and relevant. Um- Yeah... 11:23 but it would be like a multi-node economic exchange. So you could accumulate taste token by contributing to the overall knowledge of these LLMs. 11:35 But the LLMs themselves would also need to build credibility by linking to, um, legitimate sources. Uh, it was just like a white paper. 11:47 It was totally like hypothetical, but- It's a really interesting idea, and the person that would be like an amazing like thought partner on this is, is... 11:56 A- and I, I think you know him, David Marks in Tokyo that- Mm-hmm... that wrote about like, um, the relationship of taste and status and capital. You know what I mean? 12:08 And, and to date, it's, it's-Something that has been forged in very, like, loose and ethereal terms, you know? It's like public image making or writing or people that have, like, forum wasta, you know, or clout. 12:22 And, uh, but I think, I think figuring out how to formalize that with technology is kind of interesting in terms of, like, influence rank, right? David and I share a Neuralink, and he had the misfortune- [laughs]... 12:33 of being in the audience where I gave my taste economy talk that came out of this [laughs] white paper. So, um, I wish... I, I should get in touch with him, though. 12:42 We, we've been relying a lot on the Neuralink, and I should probably actually communicate with him. He's a, he's a cool cat. And, um, what I love about him is he... 12:50 I actually somehow stumbled upon his paper at Harvard a long, a long time, time ago- Mm-hmm... 12:58 in terms of, um, what he did with, like, Bathing Ape and the kind of cultural study of that, which was, I think it was his thesis at Harvard. 13:04 And it was funny because we got to be friends since, um, just through other shit. 13:09 Um, but I just remember, I think it was, like, on one of those forums, like Superfuture or something like that, and it was, like, finding some Harvard white paper that he wrote on Bathing Ape back in the day, which it's kind of funny to think back on, right? 13:23 He also has great pants. [laughs] Francis, go ahead. I know you're chomping to say something. Very stylish guy. No, okay. 13:29 So, so I was hanging out with a couple of friends this week who understand a lot more about crypto, the blockchain et cetera, than I do. I'm, I'm, I'm essentially- Wait, who?... blockchain illiterate. 13:39 Um, you don't, you don't know them. One, though- You don't know that. You don't... My friend Mazen and my friend Harris. Uh- Harris who? Harris Rosenblum. He's come up on this podcast before. 13:48 He's part of Do Not Research, Josh Citarella's, um, group. But okay, so they were... [laughs] They tried to explain this to me, like, five times, and I kept being like, "Okay, so it's like this." 13:58 And they're like, "Well, kind of. It's actually..." 14:00 So ultimately I just don't understand this concept, but I imagine the two of you might, uh, of the oracle problem on the blockchain, which I, I, you know, I looked up a definition here. 14:07 It's the security, authenticity, and trust conflict between third-party oracles and the trustless execution of smart contracts. 14:14 So in the way that I am probably misunderstanding this thing, the way you're talking about, like, this, this taste validator and this, like, taste coin or a, a way of, like, authenticating taste 14:26 digitally on chain, whatever, like, that's... This seems like a, a, quite the example of that where it's something that is so abstracted and distributed that there's just no way to do it. 14:39 Well, permissionless networks can also have their own logic, though. Like, we're working with this company Refi Labs in Zurich on a Web3 consumer app. 14:48 And, um, Refi is, like, a basically permissionless software networks, but it's domain-based, so every domain built on top of it can set their own rules and logic. Um, so permissionless doesn't necessarily mean trustless. 15:03 Um, but I guess the oracle problem is, like, a problem of manipulation, right? I'm not sure. I understand it as a problem of, like, you can't one-to-one translate information from one system to the other. Like, the or... 15:15 I think the way, the context they were talking about it in was, like, um, relating traditional financial markets to crypto. 15:23 Like, there's this, all this context that you can't really put on chain in a meaningful way that creates this, this translation issue. I think I understand what you're saying. 15:33 Did they talk to you about stablecoins at all? Uh, maybe. I [laughs] Okay, 'cause stablecoins- I, I was not following. I'm not a very smart person. 15:40 Stablecoins are meant to operate with traditional market logic on the blockchain. Mm-hmm. And even Bitcoin is expected to be, to correlate what's, with what's actually happening in the stock market. 15:51 But that does go against the very idea of Bitcoin as a store of value- Mm-hmm... that's independent from, uh, traditional market logic. So people get very emotional about this. Colin, I [laughs] 16:05 I can't tell if you're thinking or your eyes are glazing over. Both would be valid responses to this conversation. 16:10 I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm thinking, but, but I'm, like, trying to call my friend Joe Wiesenthal because he's like, this is, this is very much his, uh [laughs] Friend of the pod. 16:20 I'm like, I'm like, can I, can I phone a- He's a fan of the pod... can I, can I phone a friend? He, he is... He also did one of the best, like, Monday Media Diets in WDI that ever existed. Mm-hmm. 16:31 It was just so deep and thoughtful. And yeah, uh, that's the fir- That's, that's pretty much the first person that came to mind when I was, like, trying to 16:40 keep up my processing power on this, uh, particular conversation with y'all. [laughs] Well, okay. So let, let's, let's get off this. 16:45 Take a leaf out of the Monday Media Diet, and how about you tell us the story of a rabbit hole you've fe- recently fallen deep into? Ooh. The thing that, um, I've been doing recently is I've been just using 17:00 some of the LLMs to put together, like, reading plans for myself. And I, after, after watching, 17:08 um, Landman, the Ter- Taylor Sheridan show on Paramount+, I was like, oh, I wanna do a reading plan about sort of oil, right? Venn diagram between oil, geopolitics, Texas, you know, all of that. 17:25 And it put together a pretty awesome, um, reading plan for me, and I'll, I'll give you a little bit of a download of what I'm, I'm gonna be getting into here. Let's see here. 17:36 So some of them were, like, basic B books, right? Mm-hmm. You know, it's like, cool. Thanks for the, uh, thanks for, like, the Danny Yergin rec, you know? Mm-hmm. That's like, that's, that's the obligatory. 17:47 But obviously, like, Oil 101, which is, like, a little bit of a technical foundation of, like, how these markets work. 17:53 Um, Steve Coll is one of my favorite writers, and he wrote a book about ExxonMobil, sort of, like, private empire, um, ExxonMobil and American Power. 18:04 Um, you know, there is that MBS book, Blood and Oil, um, which is kind of probably dated at this stage in terms of, like, the rise of MBS and kind of, like, Saudi strategy.An older seventies geopolitical, um, book called The Oil Kings: How the US, Iran, and Saudi Arabia Changed the Balance of Power in the Modern Middle East. 18:28 A very juicy, gossipy book, which is called The Big Rich. Ooh. Um, The Rise and Fall of the Greatest Texas Oil Fortune- Fortunes. 18:35 So and then obviously, like the James Baker, um, book, which I've read, which is The Man Who Ran Washington: The Life and Times of James A. Baker. Um, and then some other like weird deep cuts. 18:45 You know, there's something about, um, y- Nigerian oil corruption, A Swamp Full of Dollars by Michael Peel. 18:52 So I guess my whole life, you know, co-writing Why Is This Interesting is, is, um, quick wormholes that I have to some sort of, some way cap because I have to move on into the next one. 19:07 Um, another one that I was excited about the other day was, um, th- the rebuilding of Aleppo and also just like the kind of cultural heritage of how we, you know, rebuild things. 19:20 And I'll, I'll kind of talk about that a little bit. So much of, like, Assad regime, like curated historic sites to tell a very specific story. 19:32 Syrian Arab nationalism, anti-colonial resistance, and sort of Ba'athist triumph. Certain areas of culture and history were like down ranked in the algo. 19:42 Like Turkish inscriptions disappeared during nineteen nineties restorations of historic buildings. Late Ottoman structures were selectively demolished to create an artificial historical purity. But it wasn't real, right? 19:53 So it's like the finger on the scale of, of kind of like culture and rebuilding. 19:59 And so now, um, with the rebuilding of a lot of that country, there's a lot more people at the table and how, like the say of, of how things are preserved, right? 20:11 And I got to this point where it's like, you know, everyone do- still doesn't have a fair say, right? You know, you have like UAE and some other Gulf states that have an eye on big reconstruction contracts. 20:24 Um, craftspeople with knowledge of traditional building tech-- you know, techniques might have a little bit more authority. Um, but like, who gets a say? 20:32 So there's a melange of pressures, influence, and prioritization, and like what will be the dominant point of view when it comes to reconstruction. 20:40 So the way I kind of ta- started this piece is it's just like I've been thinking a lot about who gets to decide how we remember, right? 20:48 And, and the politics of reconstruction and stuff like that, which was a really fun wormhole. Um, but I'm in the business of wormholes, so I kind of have to like move on from them to- Well, okay... 21:00 to the next one pretty quickly. So you, you, you gave a long list of books right before that. How do you... Like [laughs] how long are you gonna spend? Are you gonna read all those books? 21:07 Are you gonna buy them all and read parts of it? Like how... [laughs] I think what... And sorry, I'm, I'm jumping from topic to topic. No, go ahead. So I, I apologize for moving, like ADD style through things. 21:18 But what I'm gonna do is I'm just gonna buy them, and I, and I tried to, um, I tried to create like a reading plan like you would in like a classroom or something like that, and to do a self-directed study. 21:30 And what I also find pretty interesting is you can like then kind of ask questions or have a little bit of a dialogue to like go deeper on some of these things. Um, and again, 21:42 it's not like I'm trying to do a master's or a PhD. 21:44 I'm just trying to get to a level of, um, deeper understanding of something that unfortunately, I probably have a cursory understanding of from like reading the FT and the Lex column and stuff, but I'd like to- You're auditing the class... 21:58 fill out. Yeah, I'm auditing the class. Um, but highly recommend reading plans for like any topic you wanna wormhole on because the fidelity of stuff that I kind of get back on. 22:11 I, I read the book, um, The Year of Living Dangerously- Mm-hmm... 22:14 which was kind of like Indonesia sixties, you know, coups and politics and, and I, I had them spin up a, you know, I, I, I had the, um, I think it might have been Claude spin up a reading plan off of that. 22:28 And we got to like very interesting, like levels of fidelity where it was like, oh, this, this, you know, CIA thing was just declassified five years ago on this factor that like historians hadn't actually priced in. 22:41 And so it's very interesting to use these types of reading plans to almost think like a junior historian of like, what is the thing that not everyone has seen? Another example of that was when you think about, um, 22:58 you know, the, the Brits either in the foreign office or MI6 that were actually like working for the Soviets, you know, the Kim Philbys and the Anthony Blunts. 23:09 Blunt has a memoir that like sits in a private room that no one's read or few people have read in the British library, and it's like rate limited, right? You know, it's like it's very controlled. 23:21 Um, it's, it's interesting. You know, like I, I love the idea of even though I'm not devoting my life to 23:28 the history or writing a history of some of these subjects, it's like I'm looking for that little informational piece of alpha that everyone hasn't read because it, it's interesting, and it can be like an unlock or like an insight. 23:39 I was... Wait, so this reminds me. I was thinking of that Wu-Tang album the other day that like they, they, what-- I forget who did it. The Martin Shkreli one? Yeah. The Martin Shkreli one where he bought it. Yeah. 23:47 Nobody could listen to it. But, um- And now everyone can, right? 23:50 Well, I've, I've also been thinking a lot about the, uh, you know, the idea that information wants to be free versus when we talked to Mike Pepe, and his argument was that, no, it doesn't. 23:58 Information is labor, and, you know, people in control of platforms that distribute and traffic information want it to be free because that is free labor. 24:07 But, uh, information itself- Well, it also becomes a way to buttress the ideology of that platform. Yes. Yes. Most platforms are not- But I'm really-... without ideology... I'm interested in this, this rate. 24:15 I like that you used the, the term rate limiting. Yeah. 24:17 I think also going back to the context of, uh, that piece that Noah wrote today in Witty, um, that maybe in like the AI era of so much content and slop, et cetera, rate limited information becomes-Something that people are, are using more, you know, like non-digitized assets 24:38 That's an interesting idea, right? Where it, where it, it hasn't been priced into, like, the public market, right? I, I love this idea of, like, information gatekeeping 'cause, you know, 24:51 it used to be a thing where DJs would be playing a white label, and they'd be, like, covering it up, you know? Like, you can't, you can't Trainspot this because this is my secret sauce, right? Mm-hmm. 25:02 Um, and- But what's the line between taste and information, right? Like, where you go to vote should be public knowledge, right? And how to give input on new rules in your local vicinity, whatever, that... 25:17 But that's different from somebody's taste. Like, I think w- you could gatekeep your playlist, right? 25:25 But there is certain knowledge that should be open sourced, and the, uh, blurring of the lines between the public and private sector will only, like, further destroy things that are truly meant to be archival, um, free information and historical record. 25:43 You mean, like, hard paywall core, right? So for example, like, you gotta pay extra to get to the, the best pieces of writing in Esquire's archive, like, from the '70s, right? I- is that what you're getting at? Or... 25:54 Yeah. I mean, to me, that's like... That is, uh, like, lifestyle and taste and publishing, um, information that it's, it makes sense to pay for. 26:07 Um, but, like, what I'm talking about is, like, even before DOGE and, you know, the sort of defunding of stuff like the National Archive, where they are preserving information for the public. 26:20 There are things that you, that were paywalled or rate limited that, to my knowledge, shouldn't be. Like, for example, um, ancestry.com. 26:29 That was something that you had to pay to navigate even though half of it is, like, census data that should be- Sure... free for all of us. And you could argue, well, you're paying to access the interface. 26:42 But I think that being able to, like, search a census or immigration records to know where your family fr- is from in America should be a public good that is, like, 26:52 you know, that the right and the left should both be able to agree on. So, like, why was it basically, like, monopolized by the Mormon Church? Interesting. 27:00 Yeah, and, and people providing value by assembling or structuring data from disparate sources and slapping a, a membership on it, right? Mm-hmm. 27:10 The other thing I, I wanted to get your, both of your opinions on is, um, I think th- the Emiratis are being very, um, smart in terms of a lot of the AI strategy, um, as it relates to 27:28 geopolitics, as it relates to, um, governance. But what's very intriguing, and I wrote about this a while back, is, like, um, they're developing the first sort of, like, Arabic language LLM, right? 27:42 And what's very intriguing about that is as part of that, I would imagine, and I haven't done the math or I haven't... 27:50 You know, probably infusing it with Islamic mores and codes and rituals and basically being like, "This is going to be the source of truth for Arabic speakers that are searching for information, and we need to control that or at least have a headstart on that." 28:09 And I'm so intrigued by that idea. Obviously, like, they're way out in front of the implementation of AI in, like, lots of areas of society. They're thinking very, um, 28:22 interesting and smart things about data centers and deserts and things like that. 28:25 But I, I just think that, like, Arabic language LLM being funded and sort of, like, underwritten, um, by, by them is a, is an incredible source of, like, control and stewardship, uh, which has opens up a whole can of worms in, in interesting ways. 28:46 So I was just curious if you guys were tracking that at all, um, or not. I'm not, but I did my senior project on, um, architecture and Islamic values and, um, how 29:02 basically, like, uh, Islamic values are manifested in urban planning and the architecting of cities. 29:09 Um, and there's this principle called, like, Ummah in Islam, which is, like, the idea of the international universal Muslim community. Um, but... 29:22 And, and you could see that feeding really well into this idea that there should be an LLM that is, takes into account, like, the Ummah, right? 29:31 But for one state with a particular political ideology of how, like, Islam should be practiced, to monopolize that I think is, like, pretty dangerous, right? 29:44 Because there's a lot of values that, like, the UAE have that are just, like, pure capitalist values that don't necessarily serve, like, for example, uh, migrants from a poor Islamic country that are coming to do dangerous construction projects. 30:03 Um, so, you know, I think there's, like, an interesting spiritual argument for why something like that should exist. But from the perspective of, like, 30:15 economic and political fairness, when there is, like, one nation that is controlling it, you're obviously gonna, like, run into issues. It's... And you make such an incredible point, right? 'Cause I'm, I've... 30:29 I haven't articulated it in my mind as well as you just did, but there is a pretty interesting, like, spiritual argument. But in this instance, it's being-Sort of driven by sort of a national security advisor, right? 30:44 Yeah. You know, according to the, the FT, like, one of the main drivers. And to unpack this a little bit, um, 30:51 for like your, your audience here, the layer that sits on top, you know, currently called alignment, sort of ensures the model doesn't go too far off script. It offers a lot of editorial power to its creators, right? So 31:06 obviously try- trying asking ChatGPT to do something violent won't give you an answer, but in this case, um, there is the ability to sort of like embed mores or framing on top of this, right? 31:21 And so the weighting of this, even if it is intended with, um, all the best intention, it comes with a lot of like spiritual and philosophical questions. Mm-hmm. You know, I think 31:36 right now a lot are, are naturally biased towards the Western world since so much of the training data comes from those countries. 31:42 Going a level deeper, it also means a focus on Westo or Western or Judeo-Christian values. So purposely or not, a lot of like the LLMs are like, you know, on a certain intellectual or spiritual operating system. 31:56 So crazy, but also when you think about the 400 million plus Arabic speakers, there is also a need for this, right? For people to interface with these, um, in their native language. But it just, uh, it opens up a... 32:15 This would, this would be an incredible sort of like PhD study, right, for someone. Like, because it, there's so many vectors, Daisy, as you rightly point out. There's like the, the spiritual vector, right, of... 32:28 Or like a shared vision for Islam, but then obviously there's so many different interpretations, sects, th- things like that. But then also 32:37 the desire for a company or a, um, country to exert control or influence, and I think that that's what's happening here, is like we are going to front-run the sort of influence, um, because we see it before other people do. 32:54 Mm-hmm. Um, and so they are front-running a lot of things as it relates to strategy and, um, and AI. So- I use, um, so I use ChatGPT as like one node in the fact-checking process. 33:07 And what I'll do is I'll paste something in and I'll say, "Is this factually correct?" And then it'll give an answer, and I'll say like, "What is your source for this?" 33:14 Um, I'm curious whether you did this with your like reading, um, list as well. Like, "Hey, where are you sourcing these from, and how are you weighting them?" 33:21 And there's been times where it said, it's come back and said, when I say like, "Give me, like actually link to the source for this. Don't even list them. 33:27 Like link out what contributed to your knowledge of this," which to me is the same as like scrolling to the bottom of a Wikipedia page. Yeah. 33:34 Um, they, they'll actually self-correct and be like, "I told you the wrong thing," like once you ask for the source. 33:40 Or they'll say this, this, this, and I'll like click through, and then I like affirm the quality of that source for myself and whether I think that constitutes like an adequate fact-checking. 33:51 Um, but what- And there's illusions that pop up, right? Because like sometimes you're like if you're trying to write about Syria today, it's like, oh sorry, um, acc- you know, the training 34:02 wasn't accounting for the fact that like Assad fell because my last training data was October. Mm. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. So I, I love that you're saying that. 34:08 And I think, I think so much of this is like literacy of, of like double and triple clicking on, on the source material. Um, and I didn't mean to cut you off there, so if, if you were- No... finishing a thought. 34:20 I think like the professors who are trying to account for the inevitability of students using this in the classroom are just trying to shift that sort of media literacy into how it applies to like using this as a tool, which is like I think really is fundamental to what should be taught in like a liberal arts education- Mm... 34:38 anyway, which is like how to think. Um, and I, I sort of ran into this when I was fact-checking this piece that we did on Djokovic, um, tennis player, because... Am I saying that correctly? Anyway [laughs]. Yeah. 34:50 Uh, you know, there was a sidebar on his childhood in like former Yugoslavia, and we had one sentence that sort of categorized the conflict. And originally I think the writer had civil war. 35:00 We changed it to multi-ethnic conflict because- Mm... we believed that that was more accurate. And then there was like a, a phrase that was basically like, and NATO bombed the Serbian aggressors. 35:11 So I put this whole section into ChatGPT and I said, "Is this factually accurate?" And it came back and said, "Well, it's subjective," um, because, you know, 35:20 some people don't believe that the Serbians were the aggressors. And so then I said, "What would somebody who is aligned with NATO believe? 35:30 Like if we take the factual reality of this article to be within the realm of what NATO would perceive as aggression, where does that logic land to your truth?" And they would say like, "Well, 35:42 people who are aligned with NATO would say objectively Serbians were the aggressors." And so we ended up like leaving that in because it was meant to be what the assessment was of the Western world at the time. 35:54 But there's, I'm bringing to that like more than a decade of immersion in mainstream journalism and journalistic values where like you have to call two sources. 36:07 I was an intern at NPR when the Supreme Court, um, legalized gay marriage, and I was sitting there with my finger on the Twitter button for NPR waiting for somebody to run over and say that they had double verified it s- before I hit tweet. 36:22 And for people who haven't grown up in that world, um, there is a crisis of media literacy, and you can't even attribute it all to ChatGPT because that's just a symptom. Well, this is like- It's not the source... 36:32 a creator economy thing too. Yeah. And like a, a fragmentation and a de-institutionalizing. Yes. Absolutely. Mm. And this goes back to Colin. Sorry to, I'm, I don't want to, uh... 36:42 But there was something you said earlier that really made me think about this where you were talking about like brute force and credibility through all these signifiers, like having a nice apartment that you actually rented, which is the same people that-Pushed for the death of expertise now wanna benefit from positioning themselves as experts, and experts in everything. 37:05 Mm. So they've done the work, they've brute forced the Forbes mention through paying for one of, like, the franchised Forbes China things. You know, there's agencies that do this. 37:15 And, or, and they've, you know, they've created the TikTok presence, and the rented hotel rooms, and the rented homes Mm... and now they wanna have an opinion on geopolitics. It's like, guess what? 37:26 Nobody even gets to have an opinion because we don't even have experts anymore. I, I, I'm so happy you, you say this because 37:34 I find this problem with a lot of the kind of Silicon Valley era from 2005 to, you know, '20, where, like, 37:44 if you were there, you participated in, like, literally, like, the, the most insane sort of upswing of, of wealth, even if you were working at, like, yahoo.com in, like, the ad sales department. But a lot of these people 37:58 then think that they get to be like Marcus Aurelius on shit- Mm-hmm... right? Mm-hmm. Like, and, you know, I'm kind of sub-tweeting the All-In pod, right? 100%. You know, like, and, and, and it's really, um... 38:09 'Cause that's the, you know, that's the next level of, like, social capital is, is, like, fluency to talk about, like, healthcare policy and, like, dexterity with... And, like- Mm... 38:19 it's so funny to see these guys who were so, so, like, obstinate and like, "I'm right about this thing," in the past couple days, um, you know, with, with tariffs. 38:32 And, and it's funny to watch, like, the hemming and hawing of Ackman, who certainly loves to, you know, profess, um, and hold forth. And to tell you the truth, like, 38:43 I very much do not agree with that guy on a lot of things but, like, you know, he's actually a pretty smart character and, like, a pret- pretty good investor. 38:50 But, like, the way he comes off in, like, this new information environment is, like, like, night and day versus, like, if you actually probably would talk to that guy in a social context. So you... There is this 39:03 sort of Joker-esque quality that, that kind of plays out with, with some of these people. Um, and, and also there's the, there's the grifters who are some 39:16 no-name private equity guy that, like, artificially has lots of followers that's always in every thread with, like, the titans of industry. And just by p- proximity, y- you could, it could 39:27 make another person feel like they're in the same room or- Yeah... like, plane of, um, credibility, you know? And it, and it's, it's, it's very interesting, but it's, it's all, it's all built off... 39:39 It's like the mortgage-backed securities of credibility Well, so much of this too-... that's like this stuff, like... 39:43 is like you can profess a variety of opinions that may be contradicting, uh, but what matters is that you do profess them, and you profess a lot of them frequently on Twitter, and then the ones that were wrong, you can go back and delete those tweets, and then you look like you're right. 39:55 Yeah. You're just kind of leveraging every [laughs] point of view. It's like- Yeah... it's like, it's like the atomized version of, like, a Michael Burry or something, right? 40:03 Minus the actual conviction and the- Mm-hmm... skin in the game. Um- Conviction, who needs that? Well, these guys all land pilled themselves. Yeah. 40:10 Like, they bought into this idea that, like, we, what we don't really need is a democracy, we need a democracy for people that are sort of above the pearls, the smart people. Mm. Yeah. 40:18 Those people should be able to give opinions. And, like, as we know, opinions are like assholes 'cause everyone has one. And these guys, like, it's like, yeah, you know what should be in a data room for a Series A round. 40:29 That's true. And I'm sure you have some pretty informed opinions on, like, what San Francisco should look like or what your child's school should look like because you have direct interface with them. Mm-hmm. 40:39 Now you have lived experience. 40:41 But to take your area of expertise, which is venture capital, and your lived experience, which is st- things that have to do with your family, and somehow think that that Frankensteins you into being above the pearl in your opinions of politics when you don't know anything- Yeah... 40:56 about what a parent is. Well, they're describing, like, a, a return of, like, voting rights only to white male landowners, right? Like, that's kinda what this goes to. 41:03 But they know that it's wrong to say that and even think that, so they have to turn it into some sort of ambient, like, super Marcus Aurelius class of people who have and exercise agency. 41:16 But they have no concept of the fact that, like, even if such a super class existed, it probably wouldn't even include them. Mm-hmm. And it's funny and, and, and it's, it's so interesting 'cause, like, the... 41:32 When I observe a lot of, a lot of this class, it's like, um, I'm wealthy, and therefore I go into the Loro Piana store and I buy everything off the mannequin. [laughs] Like, I buy the look, right? Mm. 41:44 I buy, like, the package of, like, what I think, you know, I should be. What's the term? Old money, the old money look or whatever. Yeah, exactly. You know what I mean? And it, and it's, it's so... 41:55 It's like the, the starter pack, right? Mm-hmm. I have that, that AP that's hard to come by, and I bought the, um, mannequin at the Loro Piana fucking Palo Alto store, right? 42:08 Um, I'm very much sub-tweeting right now, but I won't, uh, [laughs] I won't name names. 42:12 [laughs] But, but it's, you know, it's, it's, it's fu- it's funny to observe, um- Well, okay, what it is, what it is is it's like putting in your, your, your, uh, ChatGPT reading list. 42:22 It's like doing that, but instead of give me the things to read and engage with, it's just give me the products to consume that I'm not gonna engage with on a deeper level. Yeah. And, and it's interesting 'cause, um, 42:32 parlaying this a little bit into, like, we're gonna do a little hospitality riff here. I think that, um, th- this type of audience, 42:44 the good side of this is, like, perhaps some of these audiences are looking for something different in terms of, like, the experiences and, like, how they move throughout the world. They, they want 42:55 the enlightened version of this. Might be staying at a hotel that doesn't have to, like-Reflect their ego back to them, um, where it's a little bit more discreet, intuitive, blah, blah, blah. 43:07 It doesn't have to be like the French palace, which is like very on the nose of like your ego. But I'm, I'm wondering how both the bad side of the sort of new money and the tech wealth manifests itself in what we build 43:22 in terms of like hospitality experiences, projects, and like- Mm... where that's gonna net out over the next 10 years. 'Cause like something like Aman started out as this very vibey, interesting 43:37 thing built by a visionary, Adrian Zecha, and it's turned itself into like the G-Wagon of like hospitality and kind of conspicuous consumption. So I'm just wondering like where this will all net out. 43:48 Well, the, I mean, the other loop here is like we were talking about the, the LLMs and the Arabic LLM. 43:52 It seems like you're talking about like how does the, how does the ideology of this class of people get baked into new hospitality? Yeah. And, and I, I actually think it's, it's interesting because there are people 44:07 that have like done the work and they're interesting, that have potentially done well, but aren't like screaming it from the rooftops. 44:14 They're like potentially wearing like a Garmin watch instead of like this AP, you know, and are looking for something that is intuitive and thoughtful and, um, well-constructed, you know? 44:25 I used to stay at this hotel in Hong Kong called The Upper House, which was very much that. It was just like everyone was on the same page. 44:32 Things would happen, incredible design, but it wasn't ostentatious and it wasn't, um, in your face. Whereas I think a lot of the new princelings and, and kind of 44:46 Silicon Valley gang, they probably in some ways want that ostentation, right? Mm-hmm. They, they... It's like this is the ostentation I was promised, you know, if I got here. 44:57 And so I think that it might bifurcate, right? You might have some, 45:02 um, experiences which are subtle and intuitive, and then maybe some of these crypto bros actually want the more ostentatious codes of older luxury, um, Gstaad Palace vibes, right? Well, wait. 45:15 A, a term, a term you used, I listened to your appearance on the Hospitality Daily Podcast, and you used this term irrational hospitality, which I'd love to hear you weave in here. Yeah. 45:25 You know, I, I think what, with that is it's like hospitality that is not beholden to the CFO, right? Where it's like something that is like beautifully done that doesn't make sense 45:37 cost-wise, but is like deep and interesting. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Like, um, something that would annoy a cost cutter or someone that lives in spreadsheets all day. Something that's not scalable. And, yeah. 45:50 And like, you know, I think I probably built some of that riff off of like Rory Sutherland's thing, you know, which is like some of the best things are these in- irrational or contrarian things that would probably piss off your, your CFO. 46:04 Um, and you know, the, the hospitality brands that are not beholden to, you know, 46:14 a holding company or as, as, as a CEO that or CFO that's trying to like manage costs, like they're able to do some of those irrational touches that like make you feel acknowledged or, um, you don't feel like you're being nickeled and dimed. 46:28 And I think that that's what's happened with luxury over the past several years post-pandemic is it's just like nickel and dimed core, right? 46:34 You know, you're at a pl- you're at a place in Mexico and you're ch- you're being charged, you know, Tribeca prices. Um, so even, even the very, very wealthy of the world, 46:47 they're like, "Oh, you think I'm a fucking idiot?" You know what I mean? It can be actually very offensive to... Um, I was talking to a friend who now runs, um, 46:56 Equinox Hotels, but he was like, I think president and COO of Four Seasons for a long time and, and he's like, "I have, I have people that will stay with me that will not blink an eye 47:06 at, at the $10,000 suite, you know, for a week. That, that's, that's what it costs. That's the, you know, that's, that's the standard. 47:13 But like, if you try to, if you try to nickel and dime them, it will be like an unforgivable offense, you know?" Mm-hmm. And it's, it's very interesting. Um, but I don't know. 47:21 I, I just find that- Which is kinda like a free shipping versus having to pay any other amount for shipping, pricing the shipping. Yeah. 47:27 You know, it's, it's the, it's the you're really gonna charge me for like the minibar when I'm paying for the suite? Yeah. [laughs] Yeah. But I, I... The reason why I find this so fascinating is like 47:37 hospitality is always an interesting like reflection of, or luxury is a reflection of like the zeitgeist, but sometimes there's latency in terms of like the builds and the things- Mm... that are created. And so 47:51 I'm always interested in like the lag of like where the trend is versus where things are going or manifested, um, in the world. But what has been, for both of you guys, what has been a, a stay 48:05 or an experience that has made you feel like huddled or enhanced or excited, um... You know, could be a hotel, could be staying at a friend's house. 48:18 Like, what, what are two hospitality experiences for you both that really blew your hair back? 48:26 Well, my friend Alex, when I stay at her house, she always gives me hotel slippers, which is incredible because hotels don't even give you hotel slippers anymore. And I always compliment her on it. 48:35 And also every time we stay, there's, the guest room has the nightstand on either side with a stack of books, and she personalizes one stack of books to my husband's interests and one stack of books to my interests with a couple of joke books thrown in. 48:49 Uh, it's unbelievable. Um- That's, that's incredible. And, and that's a- It is really incredible. The, the... I love that you said that because, um, there was a really... 48:59 Someone told me a great example of they stayed at a, um-Hotel, I think it was The Goring in London Mm-hmm... 49:06 and they, they had brought a book off the shelf, and they read it, and they had a bookmark in it, and then they, like, left. 49:12 And like three years later, the hotel had make, made a note of the place in the book and had the book, like, it, on the nightstand with the same point in the book, like, several years on. 49:24 And like, that gives like, that makes the hairs stand up on my arm, right? Because that's exactly the intentionality that you're, that you're getting at with your... 49:33 I mean, obviously a friend is always gonna- Why didn't they mail it back though? N- no, um, it was, it was borrowed from the hotel. Oh, I see. I see. Okay. Yeah. So it wasn't... And, and the one that I like, um, 49:46 the example that also happened to a friend of mine too is, like, at Park Hyatt Tokyo, I forgot some stuff. 49:51 I was going somewhere, and I was coming back, and instead of bothering me, they, um, just put the stuff in a different room that I was in, in the same place that it was, and they, like, didn't even say anything. 50:06 And it was very interesting because it was that Japanese sort of omotenashi anticipatory thing, not being obtrusive. Because if you think about another brand, it would be like, "Your St. 50:16 Regis butler took note of the fact that you left these things, and we've..." Yeah. You know what I mean? 50:20 They would've made it a performative thing, but, like, the Japanese thing was so subtle because it's like, "We're not even gonna bother you, because the imposition of reminding you that you forgot something is actually kind of burdensome." 50:32 Mm. "We're actually just going to do the thing that is the most elegant and the most seamless." And I'm really excited by, by those types of notions of hospitality, because that's the poetry, that's the, um, 50:46 the compound interest of, like, a relationship that you've built with a hotel, you know, over time. Mm-hmm. And, and that's why, that's why I find this space so fascinating, but I, I wanted to 50:56 ask for, for your take on this too. Yes. About anything that you've really stood out. I, I mean, 51:02 the, the one thing that instantly came to mind was just last year, my fiance and I stayed at a Airbnb in Berlin for, for a few days or, like, a week, and I mean, the nickel-and-diming thing on the thing, it's like, oh, you know, we've got bicycles in the basement you can rent for $10 a day, et cetera. 51:20 But then we, we settled in, and we got there, and we ended up, like, chatting with her for like an hour and a half or two hours. And in a way where it's like, you know, we- we've just got off the plane. 51:29 It was like, uh, we left New York at midnight, and then we got there at 1:00 PM. We're a little tired, but it was just, like, a nice conversation, and she's like, "Oh, here's this map where like, you know, the... 51:39 go to this lake, this lake." And in a way [laughs] where like after an hour she's like, "I don't... like, I don't... Usually, [laughs] usually this doesn't happen. Like, usually it's like 15 minutes or so." 51:49 But then she gave us the bikes, and she was like, "The, the bike keys," and she's like, "You know, don't wor- Just, just, just ride them. Like, it doesn't matter." Um, but then at the end, her... 51:58 When we were leaving, her... we'd like crossed paths with her partner who was coming to lock up and such, and, um, she was saying, like... I, I forget the woman's name. I think it was, like, Mary or something. 52:07 But she said that Mary said like, "Oh, you guys have discussed maybe you wanna move here for a year or something. Like, here's her number. 52:13 Like, I think she actually would love to rent you the place if you wanted to, you know, like, off of Airbnb, but just normally rent it." And in a way we're like, I, I prefer to stay in a hotel than an Airbnb these days. 52:25 It's always the extra fees and the, you know, the quality, poor, whatever. But this was like, the... I don't know. This felt like the original proposition, right? 52:33 Where it's like, here's a person who you're gonna engage with as a person, who's gonna engage with you as a person, and like, now this is somebody whose email I have who, like, I could c- [laughs] I could just rent this apartment from her for a year. 52:48 Uh, that's really exciting too, because it, it gets us back to this notion of, like, neighborliness, right? Yeah. You know? And, um, and, and you- you're so right, 'cause that was the original proposition- Mm... right? 52:59 Of like, because I have this relationship with this person, thus the manners and the way I'm going to treat this place is- Mm-hmm... with respect. 53:10 And like, unfortunately, like, that's out the window with, like, the way these things are scaled, right? On the host side, it's like, "Let me give you a, a fucking list of chores to do." Yeah. [laughs] You know? 53:22 "And I'm gonna nickel-and-dime you with, like, all these fees to boost my margins." 53:26 And then on the guest side, it's like, "I'm just gonna trash this place or treat it as if, like, you know, I'm gonna scuff my luggage on the wall and treat it as if it's the Holiday Inn." And I, and I... And this is the, 53:38 this is the thing that in culture is just, like, so profoundly upsetting to me, and someone said this the other day. Um, I'm gonna f- I'm gonna quickly find the, uh, the quote because it was so spot on. But they... 53:53 You know, it was basically just about how we're moving through the, um, like, the death of manners and how people are kind of moving through the world as if everyone else is, like, a N- you know, NPC, right? Mm-hmm. 54:10 Oh, yeah. And- Colin, I saw a similar tweet while you look for it. This one was about how, like, kindness and decency have become, like, woke coded. Mm-hmm. 54:18 And there was a follow-up tweet basically saying that, like, during the Thatcher era and even Reagan, do-gooder was actually, like, an epithet that people would use against other people where you're like, "Oh, you're a do-gooder-gooder" or, "You're a woke." 54:33 And it goes back to this idea of, like, the new wealth where it's like old money, as, like, paternalistic as it was, there was this sense that, like, the more money you earn, the more duty you have towards the common good. 54:45 Mm. Mm-hmm. And that sense of civic duty is completely out the window. Like, VCs will leave their job at their firm to go work in Washington, but they're not doing it because they have a sense of duty to the common good. 54:58 They're doing it to enrich themselves and their friends, and I think it's disgusting. Um- This goes back to the whole Marcus Aurelius conversation. Yeah. And I don't think it, it- Yeah. It, it's- Yeah. 55:06 I, I love that you said that. Yeah. It's like, um-It's because that's the next level of the capital rung. Mm-hmm. As opposed to, like, I made a bunch of... 55:16 I made a, a, I, I made my money, and now it's my time to serve, right? Mm-hmm. Um, I, I, I, I l- I, I love that point, um, and I'm, I'm finding this, uh... 55:29 I'm scrolling through the comments to, to find this, um, quote 'cause it's just so good. But, um, it's just about, it's, it's about that, um, toes out on the airplane watching- [laughs]... TikToks out loud. Yeah. 55:42 This sort of everyone else is- I saw this yesterday. Yeah. Yeah, everyone else is, like, a, everyone else is just an NPC, and I'm just, like, moving throughout the world, you know? Um, so yeah. 55:53 Okay, the social contract is dead. Zoom calls in coffee shops, music allowed on the subway, texting in movie theaters, toes out on airplanes. 56:00 Everyone has main character energy now and thinks the rest of the world is a bunch of NPCs. 56:05 The more you stare at a screen, the more you feel like you can do anything you want IRL since other humans just wind up seeming like avatars you can ignore, commenters you can mute, or gang members you can run over in Grand Theft Auto. 56:15 And, like, I don't know, I, I know a lot of people are frustrated with this, but I don't know what is required to kind of get back to neighborliness because- Mm... um, part of this is pandemic, part of this is, like, 56:29 social media trances where people are, like, not in touch with, like, their environment. 56:34 But I was picking up a coffee the other day, and the, some guy was just, like, watching something at like level 11 in the coffee shop. 56:39 And I was like, "I'm not gonna get into it with this guy just because I just don't wanna fucking do that." But if I was sitting trying to read or study for, like, an exam, like, it's just, like, a pollutant, you know? 56:51 Yeah. And, and it's that, um... So I think that the, it, I used to think the antidote to this was, um, like, hospita- like, hotels and these spaces, like, having a little bit more backbone- Mm-hmm... 57:03 in terms of, like, what they will and won't stand for. Like, the customer actually isn't always right. Yeah. 57:08 The, the customer isn't always right, but the problem is, is what that does is it penalizes, like, the frontline staff who are just trying to do their jobs and, like, don't wanna have to pick fights with people that can potentially be of, like, different status. 57:21 Mm. Where it's, like, some person be like, "Do you know who I am? I'll get you fired. I know the manager." You know? And so I don't know. Um, but I do think that, like, there is a... 57:31 I'm sensing a, a current among thinking people about how f- how bad this has gotten and how it needs to be, like, reined in, but I don't know how we get it fixed, you know? I don't know. 57:39 I think, like, the institution has to stand behind the worker. Like, I'm reading Graydon Carter's memoir right now, and they're talking about people that they had to ban from the Vanity Fair Oscars party. 57:50 And he basically said, like, "You could be as rude as you want to me, but the second that you're rude to somebody of my staff, you're banned for life. It doesn't matter who you are." Courtney Love got banned. 57:59 [laughs] Yeah. And I think we have to bring back some of that mentality where, like, there is a corollary to decency, which is shame. Um, and I think that there's a way to appeal to people's conscience which isn't, like, 58:13 videotaping people at the dog park. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, or videotaping people having an argument on the subway. But I think we need to bring back this sort of like... 58:24 [laughs] This is something, like, when I was growing up, it was called, like, Matthew code, which was something from the Bible, which is like when you have a problem, you go to them directly. 58:30 I think it's in Matthew, so that's called the Matthew code. But it's just, like, this one-to-one appeal that doesn't have to take place on the internet- Mm... 58:39 but can be like, "Hey, man, can you take your, your feet down from the chair?" 58:44 Um, and I think, I mean, not to say that this goes all the way up to so many different issues, but I think the fact that people could be armed in American society impacts people's, like, willingness to confront other people. 58:57 I mean, there's a lot of things about this social contract breaking down that aren't just people's solipsism- Yeah... and spending time online. It's that, like, we're not, like, really a peaceful society. 59:09 I, I like what you're saying though, is, um, is there a way to, like, modulate this in a way that's, like, non-threatening but is snapping someone out of, like, a trance, right? Mm-hmm. 59:16 Because it's like if you're assuming good intent, sometimes that works, right? And I've actually done that in, like, airports where I'm like, "Excuse me, can you just put headphones on?" 59:24 People are, "Oh my God, I'm so sorry." [laughs] "I was, like, talking to my nephew, and I was, like, entranced with the thing." And, like, but then other people are like, "Go fuck yourself," you know? Yeah. 59:33 So but I think, um, the, the point that, to put a bow on it, and I, I have to get moving 'cause I'm gonna get kicked out of this room in two seconds. [laughs] But, like, um, the, 59:46 to put a bow on it is, is I think what you talked about with your Airbnb experience and, and, and, you know, Daisy, your hospitality experiences, like, a neighborliness, an anticipation, an empathy, right? 1:00:00 And, like, that, that is so powerful, and it can... And honestly, like, people that lose their jobs or are having a bad day, it's like when you call them and just say, "Hey, I'm just thinking about you. No agenda. 1:00:18 I'm here." And, like, people are, like, blown away 'cause no one does that anymore, right? If you wanna have- And, um- Yeah. Sorry, I didn't mean to- I, I, I think- Hey... 1:00:25 well, I think we could end it there- Yeah, we can end it... and say, listener- We can end it there... we're thinking about you. We're thinking about you. Thank you for listening. 1:00:31 If you wanna have a high-trust society, you have to extend trust and build the community that you... build the community and the hospitality you wanna see in the world. And what I think about, 1:00:40 to put a bow on it, is, like, I liked the anecdotes from Graydon about, like, the personal correspondence, the flowers for the first article in the mag, the art... You know? 1:00:50 It's like these analog acknowledgments, which are, in our, in our society today, in the sort of tech society, have a disproportionate amount of weight. 1:00:59 They hit you like a ton of bricks that someone actually took the time. But, um, speaking of which, thank you so much for having me. I think we covered a lot of, like, ground. Yes. 1:01:08 [laughs] And I'm, I'm very flattered to, uh, to have been asked and, and so thank you. Thank you. Thank you for coming. 1:01:17 [outro music]
