Transcript 0:00 [upbeat music] Hi, welcome to Tasteland. I'm your co-host, Daisy Alioto, and I am solo dolo today, as Francis is traveling. Today's guest is Tova Daanovich. 0:16 She is the author of Under the Henfluence: Inside the World of Backyard Chickens and the People Who Love Them, which was a finalist for the Oregon Book Award. 0:24 Uh, and her work has also appeared in The New York Times, The Washington Post, and most importantly, Dirt. We're so excited to have her on today. Couple headlines that I've been following, the Met Gala was last night. 0:36 I agree with my friend Danny Loftus, who tweeted that the men really showed up the women. And yes, the theme was dandies, but women can be dandies too. 0:47 So hopefully things will rebalance last year, although Rihanna looked amazing, as usual. 0:54 DoorDash made a couple of acquisitions this morning, and it leads me to wonder whether we're entering a period of extreme startup consolidation. 1:04 It will be interesting to see market leaders in different categories sort of gobble up their smaller competition. 1:11 Um, and finally, I wanted to tell you that Clone, uh, Dirt's project with Boys' Club, which we're pitching as Drudge for technology and culture, will go live tomorrow or today, depending on when you're listening to this. 1:25 It will live at clone.fyi. Bookmark the tab. We're gonna update it hourly, and it will be a good respite, uh, for when you're overwhelmed by Sub Stack and X. 1:37 Um, but I can see that Tova's in the waiting room, so I'm going to let her in now. [upbeat music] Welcome to the podcast. Yeah, thanks so much for having me here. I'm excited to talk to you about chickens. 1:55 I have so many questions for you. I have not interacted with a chicken in a while, and, uh, I wish I had more opportunities to interact with them, but this is an everyday thing for you. 2:07 Well, it was, so that's kind of one of the, the funny things about still talking about chickens is I got divorced like a year and a half ago, and I'm in an apartment now where it is not super chicken friendly. 2:21 Um, so my chickens live in a beautiful B&B in the countryside. Um, and I have actually gone to visit them a couple of times. 2:28 I should be going back in a month, and they're living their best life out there, but I've had to transfer my affections to wild birds instead. 2:38 Um, as a child of divorce, I completely understand the position that your chickens are in. Mm-hmm. Um, so is that going to be the follow-up book? Because this sounds like a really rich, hybrid memoir. Yeah. 2:51 So that, that is on the table. I'm one of those writers where I have too many ideas and but one brain. Um, so I'm actually finishing a, a novel right now. [laughs] Amazing. 3:02 Um, I just did something completely different, but my next idea is actually a memoir about rewilding the yard, which I kind of wrote a little bit about in that piece I did for Dirt, so. 3:13 I loved that section, and I definitely think... Well, it's interesting. Um, 3:20 I, I remember highlighting the, uh, the, where you were sort of trying to tell your husband like what's we- a weed and what's not a weed- Mm-hmm... 3:29 and saying, "Oh yeah, I, that's, what's a weed and what's not a weed could represent a, a clever and funny recurring moment in the marriage or maybe, maybe a root of like a really big fight." [laughs] Yeah, yeah. 3:41 I mean, it's always, it's funny... I mean, I think any of us who have gone through any kind of breakup, you go back and you look through like, when, when should I have known or like were there signs? 3:52 And the, the difference in our approach to nature is certainly something that I, I have thought about a lot, which like, was that the thing? I don't know. It's, it's so many things at the end of the day. 4:04 Relationships and especially marriage are so complicated and complex, and in a lot of ways, I feel like it's kind of like my only topic. 4:13 [laughs] Um, you know, I think every writer, you said you have a lot of ideas in one brain, but when you sort of distill that brain, I wonder if you feel the way I feel, which is like the brain always goes back to one topic, and it disguises itself in a lot of different costumes. 4:31 But like for me, it's like intimacy, desire, and yearning. Mm-hmm. Whatever I'm writing about, I'm always writing about that. 4:38 And I have friends that feel similarly about different topics, but I'm curious if, if you have like a, a topic that is kind of the topic of your life. Yeah. 4:48 I've, I've thought about that a lot too because I've similarly written about a lot of different things, and I think curiosity is kind of- Mm... 4:57 the big one for me is just like interest in the world around you in whatever form that takes. Um, I'm just kind of so endlessly curious about people and relationships and our relationships with like non-human animals. 5:13 So I think in that way, relationships also come up a lot, but yeah, just this interest in, in the wider world because there's so much going on, and I wish I had more time to explore more of it, but alas. 5:28 I was thinking actually yesterday about something that almost... I think it's like a version of having a curiosity gap relationship, but have you ever talked to somebody who's like a default no person? 5:40 Ooh, I don't know if I have those people in my life, but- You've, you're well curated. Yeah. [laughs] Yeah. 5:47 I, I tweeted, obviously this is hyperbole, but talking to a default no person kind of feels like being stabbed because I, because of my position and having my own company, I'm able to follow my own curiosity for so much of the day that when I hit a roadblock of somebody who's not likeDoing the sort of improv yes and thing. 6:07 Yeah. Mm-hmm. It just feels like such a psychic disruption. Yeah. [lips smack] People have their own reasons for being default no, and I do respect them, but we don't get along that well. [laughs] No. 6:18 Yeah, I think I'm like a, I'm a very curious default maybe, I think. Like, I'm, I'm often a little bit scared to do something new, especially for the first time, but I, I want to say yes. 6:31 So then I have surrounded myself with friends who are so excited about things that I'm like, "Well, I have to say yes to this thing- Yeah... that you have proposed." 6:39 I would never in a million years have done it, even though I've thought about doing it, but now that you're saying we should do it, like, let's go. Other people's enthusiasm is so infectious. 6:49 I actually had a wildlife encounter recently, which is somewhat- Mm-hmm... improbable given I live in the suburbs. But there's a raccoon that lives in the eaves of our parking garage. Mm-hmm. 6:59 And, um, we were walking from the car, and my husband just so casually was like, "Raccoon," and pointed, and I was like- [laughs] Like [laughs] it was just like, I was like, "What?" [laughs] He's like, "Raccoon." 7:11 And I look up, and there's a... He's just curled up in the eaves. Hmm. Um, and I've seen him a couple times, and I'm like, "Um, [lips smack] you know, is this normal behavior?" Like, he does not seem sick- Hmm... 7:22 or rabid, and I'm really, I don't really know what the animal control operation in our town even looks like. 7:28 You know, it would be bad if he fell on somebody or their car, but he didn't really seem like he was gonna do that, so I was like, "Wow, this is, like, such an unexpected encounter to be happening-" Yeah... having." 7:41 Funny. I, that's something I've been writing about a little bit. I have this column at Earth Island Journal, and I- Mm-hmm... write about kind of urban wildlife and, like, our relationships to them. 7:51 And the most recent one that just came out is about coyotes, and they are everywhere in the United States. Like, their population has really exploded, um, over the last, I don't know, 50 years or so. 8:04 Um, but people still see them in our neighborhoods, and we're like, "What is this wild creature doing crossing the road in the middle of this busy intersection?" 8:13 You know, especially if you see them in the daytime, there's something about us where we're like, "Well, it's one thing if they're out at night, but surely, like, you're rabid. Something's wrong with you." 8:23 Um, but there are, like, historical accounts of coyotes being around humans forever. Um, they have a very, uh... They live well with or close to us and do well in those, uh, circumstances. 8:39 Especially, like, they catch a lot of rodents. We are a producer [laughs] of a lot of trash that, that brings rodents. Um, similar with raccoons too. 8:47 Um, and yeah, it's so, it's really fascinating to me that humans in general, I think we have this idea of wildlife and wild animals as something that's out there. 8:57 Uh, but if you stop to pay attention, there's really a lot of it really close to home in the eaves of our, our car parks. [laughs] Can I ask a really dumb question? Sure. 9:08 So obviously, I know there's, like, wild dogs and wolves that became domesticated breeds, but is there a, a line from coyotes to domesticated dogs? There's some cross-breeding. Mm-hmm. So there isn't, like, the coyote... 9:21 I guess they're coydogs, is what they're called- Mm-hmm... when they, they interbreed. Um, but it's not like you wouldn't want one as a pet. I'm sure someone has one [laughs] as a pet- Yeah... somewhere. 9:32 Um, but yeah, they are all canids, I think, can, can interbreed, which is why you get, like, wolfdogs and things like that. Yeah. So interesting. When I take the train into the city, we, there are a couple- Mm-hmm... 9:43 places where they have the fake coyotes out, um, like on a pier is one. Mm-hmm. And then there's, like, a big empty space with one. It always freaks me out. Mm-hmm. 9:52 Um, but the fake coyotes are just such an interesting, like, they're almost like a talisman to me. Yeah. When I see them, I'm like, "Hmm." I don't know about the fake coyotes. Um, I don't... They must be... 10:04 Maybe they're to scare off geese. Oh, okay. Interesting. Maybe they don't want geese, like- Yeah... congregating in those areas. Mm-hmm. Um, it's weird 'cause it usually goes the other way. 10:13 Like, I've s- see, like, a fake owl- Mm-hmm... or something to scare off, um, birds and bats. But yeah, these are definitely, like, dummy decoy coyotes. Funny. 10:24 So I was gonna ask you what changed about the chickens since you wrote them, about them in 2023. Obviously, they've been- A lot... rehomed. Yeah. What was the process like of finding a new home for them? 10:33 Like, did you just go on Craigslist like, "Hello"? [laughs] No. I was so particular, and it took many months. Um, my ex and I still have, like, a very, I don't know, cordial to good relationship. Um- Yeah... 10:46 we co-parent our dogs. Um, so the chickens were still at the old house for quite a few months while I was trying to figure out where they were going to go. Um, they had been together as a flock at that point. 10:59 I mean, I think the newest ones I had gotten a year previously. Um, but I had been keeping chickens for five or six years, and so they had all been together as a flock for a really long time. 11:09 And chickens are social animals. Like, flock hierarchies are, are pretty important for their wellbeing. Um, and I didn't wanna split the little buddies up. That seemed mean. 11:21 But finding a good home where eight chickens can go together is a little bit difficult. Um, but it was really important to me to do that- Mm-hmm... if I at all could. 11:31 And, um, my friend Erica Berry, who's a great memoir writer, um, she- I know Erica. Yeah. She, uh- We went to college together. Oh, great. Small world. Yeah. Um, she lives here in Portland. 11:42 Um, she went to this B&B and was like, "Tova, they have these chickens, and they said that they would maybe have, have a home for chickens." 11:51 They're constantly taking in, like, wayward chickens that need homes from other people. Um, so I went out to visit, and they were so nice. Um, and yeah, the chickens are just thriving. 12:01 I wrote about, um, Peggy in my book, and she's, like, the first, one of the first three chicks I got-Seven years ago. Um, and she's the only one that's still around from that, uh, initial group. 12:14 But she just had her seventh hatch day the other day, and laid an egg the day before. So I, I do little, like, text updates to see how they're doing every once in a while. So- Oh, good... 12:24 um, yeah, they're probably even more spoiled in some ways than they were living with me, which is what I wanted for them. 12:33 When you wrote the book Under the Henfluence in 2023 about the experience of owning this flock, gather-raising this flock- Mm-hmm... uh, were there any responses to the book that surprised you? Yeah. 12:47 Well, I had a couple of people name chickens after me, which is the greatest honor, and I've just been- That's so flattering. Oh my gosh... delighted. Um, it was like, please. 12:56 And one of them too, I write in the book about, um, getting rescue hens, because they're... There are some, like, problematic things about buying chicks from a hatchery, similar to getting, like, purebred dogs. Mm. 13:09 Um, different situation, but, like, it raises some questions whenever you are buying animals, which then turn the animals into commodities. Um- Mm-hmm... 13:18 so there are these organizations that take chickens from egg farms, where usually they are retired, quote, unquote, um, after a year or two- Mm... 13:30 um, of laying, because they are considered too old, even though, as, as we saw with my, my Peggy story, um, they can still lay eggs for a really long time. It's just that, uh, it slows down. 13:41 Um, so some people are doing organizations where they re-home some of these chickens from egg farms, and then you can, like, let them be a chicken for the first time in their lives, which is really special and wonderful. 13:54 Um, so someone did that because they read my book, and then named one of those chickens Tova, um, which was so sweet. Someone else wrote me, and they started a, um, 14:05 organization where they bring chickens into, like, retirement homes, uh, to hang out with people, uh, which is something that, especially with the generation of people that are in elder care facilities right now, like, many of them did kind of grow up with chickens being around or on farms. 14:24 And so there's something really special about having that, like, childhood connection, um, when you're that age. 14:29 So yeah, it's, I mean, I think all of us hope that our writing will change people in some way, even if it's just, like, emotionally [laughs] helping them understand themselves. 14:41 And so to have these stories about people who actually did something because they were inspired by something I wrote is just, like, the best compliment. That's really beautiful. And- Yeah... 14:53 what I got from the piece that you wrote for Dirt is, like, chickens are really social creatures. Mm-hmm. Not only with each other, but with other wildlife that's around, and humans, and I didn't realize that. 15:04 But it's nice to think of, like, them socialized and being socialized by some of these- Mm-hmm... opportunities that came out about the book. Yeah. 15:12 Yeah, just getting, getting to be chickens, which is all any of us wants. Like, what, what is my getting to be a human in the world? Um, yeah. 15:20 Well, so you talked about how the older generation, a lot of them grew up and chickens were around in some way, you know- Mm-hmm... maybe in the neighborhood. 15:29 Um, where did you grow up, and, like, what's your background with farming and wildlife? Yeah. I moved a lot growing up, um, just kind of, like, divorce and job reasons. 15:40 Um, so you know, from, like, nine to 12 years old, I lived on an island in the Pacific Northwest, and I did 4H with my sheep, and it was idyllic and beautiful, and we had a pet peacock. 15:54 Um, and then I was born in San Francisco. Um, I went to college in New York City, so I've kind of gone around, um, a little bit as I was growing up. 16:04 I didn't have one stable thing, but I think animals in particular have always been a really big interest of mine, and something that I'm fascinated by and, like, feel deeply connected to. 16:16 Do you feel particularly connected to the environment of the Pacific Northwest? Yeah, I think so. 16:23 Um, you know, I read somewhere that people in general always think, like, their country was the best at whatever time they were kind of between nine and 12 years old. It's kind of- Mm... 16:37 this golden sweet spot where you're too young for the world to really affect you, but old enough to have, like, a little bit of independence outside of your, your household. 16:49 Um, and I just happened to live on Whidbey Island in the [laughs] Puget Sound during those years, and I have such strong sense memories of, like, the smell of fir trees, and all of the moss, and, like, the rain smells. 17:03 Um, and I think that was a big reason why when I was moving from New York City and, like, where else do I want to go, it was like, Portland sounds great. 17:12 It's, you know, the, the ecology is so similar to what I experienced then. Yeah. I've not spent much time there. I really, really want to. Um, it's on my bucket list. Mm-hmm. 17:27 And, but I did grow up, you know, in New England, so, like, sort of opposite coast, and I think I feel similarly. I have, like, a lot of pride towards N- New England that isn't always clear until I leave- Mm-hmm... 17:42 um, and come back, or I meet other people that are from near where I'm from, and I feel like we just have a sort of, like, natural rapport with one another. Mm-hmm. Um, so yeah, I'm always fascinated by that. 17:56 And nostalgia is such a powerful thing, and, like, it, it's been weaponized, and it's been weaponized almost- Mm... around the same topics that we're talking about too with, like, tradfluencers and, like- Yeah... 18:08 backyard farming and- Mm-hmm... um, nostalgia for a system that never really totally ever existed- Yeah... 18:15 which is, like-Farming has been pretty much industrialized for, like it's been industrialized for the entire time any of us could remember, and like this idea of- Mm-hmm... 18:24 of a single s- subsistence farm is such a blip in human history. [laughs] Yeah. Um, and I, I wonder like how have you kinda dealt 18:35 with that, um, you know obviously there's some people who probably bought your book and thought, "This is gonna be a guide to raising chickens"- Mm-hmm... even though it explicitly doesn't say that it is. 18:45 There's people looking for that information now because they just wanna be more in touch with animals and where their eggs come from. 18:53 But then there's other people who want to return to a past time that never really existed, and like how do you sort of like grapple with that as you're writing and thinking about this? Yeah. That's such a good question. 19:07 Um, that was a th- something I was really surprised by when I was reporting the book. Um, and also I had, it still exists but is lying dormant, the chickens had a very popular Instagram. 19:21 Um, and I was so surprised by the fact that chickens are just like in the center of everyone's Venn diagram. Um, like anywhere you go, anyone I talk to, someone has a chicken story. 19:34 And maybe it's like, "I visited my grandma and this like rooster chased me," or it was some family member has chickens who they really love. Just like everyone, and all over the world too, which was really fascinating. 19:48 Um, you know, they're so small, they're so portable that almost every culture at this point has some history with chickens. 19:55 You know, the Polynesians when they were going to all the different islands, they brought chickens with them on their boats. 20:01 Um, they are kind of this wonderfully universal animal, which also means that culturally we have very different stories that we tell about the chickens, ways we interact with them. 20:12 Um, here in the United States too, you know, as, as you mentioned, we have the people that are doing kind of the, the homesteading prepper thing, and they have chickens for that. 20:22 You have the wealthy liberal people who are like, "I'm gonna get a $20,000 chicken coop with like state-of-the-art technology and only fancy chickens." 20:32 Um, you have people that are breeding chickens, and then like kids all through much older people that are interacting with these animals and interested them, in them, uh, for different reasons. And I think that that's, 20:45 I mean, I have such mixed feelings about why we are divided, and I think like a lot of us, that kind of kumbaya, like we should all just get along thing. Um, it's so difficult with the 21:00 issues that we, we are talking about, and the way that like yeah, us getting along means excluding groups that really need, need our support. 21:09 Um, but it is also nice to find this thing of common ground where it's like you can talk to people about chickens- Mm... and maybe that's the way in. And I had people following my account who were very similar to me. 21:23 I had people that had like, you know, Jesus in their byline and like some quote from the Bible. 21:29 Um, like it was really all over the place, and I found that super fascinating because I think that- How big did this account get? It, um, I mean still now I think it has 134,000 followers, so it was, it was quite large. 21:43 [laughs] Tova, you can sell that. [laughs] I'm keeping it for if I have chickens again, so. I would... See, you're better than me. I would just switch it over to my personal one and be like, "Hey, people, what's up? 21:53 I'm gonna be doing some brand deals." That's [laughs] No, I... That's actually very cool. Um- Yeah... and I hope that you can revive it- Yeah... someday. Someday. Um- We'll see. 22:04 How do you shop and eat differently as a result of this experience? Yeah. I mean, I stopped eating chicken in, what, 2018. Um- Mm... and I don't eat any poultry at all. 22:19 Um, and that has been pretty easy to stick with for me. Mm-hmm. 22:24 Um, and that's mostly just, it's funny, I, I was like a food and agriculture, uh, reporter for a long time at the beginning of my freelancing career, so I know a lot about kind of the meat industry and how it works. 22:37 And I know a lot of people- You know too much. I know too much. Um, it's not good. Spoiler alert. Um, [laughs] but a lot of people, if they're not completely vegetarian, they cut out red meat because of the- Mm... 22:49 environmental implications, which- Mm-hmm... totally makes sense. It's very fair. 22:54 Um, but I feel, and I argued in my book, that humaneness-wise, um, the way we treat chickens, the scale on which they are killed, how they are raised, all the things around it, um, they are treated worse than any other food animal- Mm... 23:09 in our system. Um, and I don't want to engage with that. Um, so that has been pretty easy to step away from. I, I think probably being [laughs] vegetarian or vegan is like the ethical thing. 23:23 Um, I've had trouble doing that 100%, but I think even cutting out this one category has made it easier to cut down on everything else, um, which I feel better about as, as a human [laughs] in the world trying to make good choices. 23:39 I think I could be pescatarian if it really came down to it, but- Mm-hmm... I haven't tested that thesis. Yeah. 23:47 When I was prepping for this, I watched a spot where you were talking about, think it was like maybe CBS, they had you- Mm... come on to talk about the price of eggs, and I was like- Mm... 23:55 "Well, this must be recent," and it was from 2023. So like- Yeah... 23:59 this is something we've been talking about for a while, but the price of eggs is just like this bogeyman that became like a big stick- sticking point in the most recent election. Mm-hmm. 24:09 Um, and I'm curious like what you learned in your research about the supply chain for eggs. Like why eggs? 24:17 What, what is it about-Backyard farming and, like, eggs in particular that just ignites this, like, political anxiety. Yeah. Um, I mean, it's a real staple food. 24:30 Uh, I think, you know, not that vegetarians are a huge percent of the population, but even people who don't eat meat often, they are, like, eating eggs, and we eat a lot of them. 24:40 Um, you know, like a little omelet at home. It's two eggs. It's a lot of eggs. Um- Yeah... so I think most recently it's not just eggs. 24:49 It is eggs in combination with, like, rent is so high and groceries in general are much higher, like, post-pandemic, um, inflation. 24:58 So I think eggs have kind of became emblematic of all of the other price crunches that we are feeling, um, as our wages are not rising [laughs] at all or going down. Um, but yeah, it's really interesting. 25:15 One of the first big pieces I did about chickens was in 2020, um, when everyone was in lockdown, and chickens sold out everywhere, um, because people were rushing to go out and get- Mm... 25:27 backyard chickens, um, which is kind of what happened this year as well. 25:32 Um, and one of the people that I talked to, who I also went on to interview in my book, uh, he owns a hatchery, and he was like, "Throughout history, people go out and they buy chickens during periods of economic in- uncertainty and during presidential elections, which are also- Mm... 25:49 kind of a period of economic uncertainty." Mm. It's like election years somehow, at least, you know, some part of the population is like, "Everything is going to hell. 25:58 [laughs] I'm gonna get chickens just in case the apocalypse is coming." 26:02 Um, so I think there is this sense of security with having a source of your own food, and I have to imagine that this is some, like, caveman, really deep-seeded human instinct, um, because we seem to do it a lot where we're like, "I've gotta stock up. 26:19 Like, something bad is happening. I need to keep myself fed and safe. Um, so I will get chickens." 26:25 And I think if people could get, like, cows in the backyard [laughs] and have that be easy, like, they would probably be doing that too. Um- Mm... 26:33 but chickens are, are simple because you, you don't have to slaughter them. You can just, like, have their eggs, and so it feels a little bit more humane. 26:42 Like, most of us know what it's like to have a pet, and chickens are pets that can also give us some food security. So I think that is what is happening there. Sort of like an advanced mode victory garden? Yeah, exactly. 26:55 And, like, gardening got so big during lockdown too for similar reasons, so. 27:00 Um, there's also something interesting around, like, eggs and eating eggs as, like, a symbol of masculinity that is, like, at odds with where the egg comes from. It's like the egg can only be produced by the female. 27:14 Mm-hmm. But it's like there's something very masculine about consuming eggs, and I wonder if that feeds into this anxiety of, like, powerlessness at all. Yeah. 27:26 I mean, when I think of masculinity eating, I think more about meat than eggs. Mm. So I think eggs being a source of protein definitely ties into that. 27:36 Um, and, of course, my mind jumps to the, like, post-workout shake of, like, the raw egg that- Yeah, exactly... you're putting in there, which I have never had and sounds gross. Um, but yeah, I... 27:48 You know, it's fascinating with chickens that I think their story is actually a deeply feminist one, which I love about them. Um, I talked- Say more about that. Yeah. Um, this is interesting to me. I... It's great. 28:01 Um, so I talked to my grandma early on after I got chickens, and she was telling me how her mom, my great-grandma, raised chickens for egg money, and this was kind of how she paid for, like, all of her school books, all of the music lessons. 28:15 Anything, like, special, uh, came from eggs. And I was like, "This is fascinating. I'm gonna do some more reading." 28:22 This is a huge phenomenon, at least, like, in United States history, where eggs and chickens were kind of looked down on as not worthwhile to farm income. Mm. 28:35 So if you were the man of the house as a farmer, you were concerned with, like, your large animals, you know, your, your cows and pigs. You did, like, the big tilling of the fields. 28:47 Um, all of your income went back into the farm and maybe purchasing more land. However, anything to do with household expenses did not come from that income. 28:58 Often, it came from women who were raising chickens or had little gardens that were for sale to such an extent that, like, egg money is a recognized phrase in history. Mm. 29:09 Like, you can look this up and find it in a lot of farming books. Um, and so it wasn't just, like, the school books and things like my grandma said. It was actually clothes. 29:20 It was all of your food for the house that you didn't grow yourself was paid for by chickens. 29:24 So basically, everything outside of the roof over your head and the land around you was paid for by chickens, and it was this huge economy where some women would end up making, like, way more money than their husbands. 29:38 And yet it wasn't counted because even our agricultural organizations like the USDA were like, "Eh, it's just women. Like, doesn't, doesn't matter at all." Um, and then World War II comes around, uh, and suddenly I... 29:54 Somehow the, the USDA was like, "Actually, we think we could make more money by bringing chickens inside and kind of doing this factory model with them. And who should run it? 30:07 Not all the women that have been raising chickens in their, like, yards in these smaller flocks of, you know, like, 20 to a couple hundred. Let's train the men to do these chickens." 30:17 Um, and so it moved into the industrial model that we now have. 30:21 Women stopped being the ones who are responsible for chicken caretaking and eggs, um, and it became the system that we know today where they are warehoused by, like-Thousands, hundred thousands in these windowless barns. 30:36 Um, and it's just, like, this huge industry that now is male-owned often. 30:42 And, uh, you know, if where there is labor, which is very minimal, it is frequently done by, you know, like, immigrants and very, very poor people. 30:52 Sort of like the trajectory of, like, coding and using computers- Mm-hmm... and drafting, where it's like, "Oh, that's secretarial work. Oh, never mind-" Yeah... "this is- there's money in this." Um- Yeah. 31:02 Let's give it to the men now. [laughs] Sort of like, it seems like a chicken was sort of like a rainy day fund for women before they could have their own bank accounts too, like the bank account- Yeah... is the chicken. 31:13 Yeah, exactly. 31:14 And, you know, a lot of, um, grocery stores, it was kind of done in trade, so there was this huge local economy of, like, me with my chickens, I go down and I have, you know, $10 at the grocery store in my account, and those eggs are going somewhere else. 31:30 It's just kind of fascinating. Um- Well, you've also written about beekeeping. Mm-hmm. And I'm interested how this compares to raising chickens, both historically and, like, the way that people treat it now. Yeah. 31:46 Um, I think it's pretty different. Um, I don't know. I mean, I think people keep bees all over the world or interact with bees and get their honey in some way. 31:57 Um, so I think in that way, like, our relationship with domesticated or semi-domesticated animals is pretty global- Mm... um, across the board, regardless of what species you're talking about. 32:09 Um, honeybees are interesting to me for a different reason. Um, I... So I got chickens. I had this yard that I was really into. Um, and I'm like, "Ah, the next obvious thing for me to take on as a hobby is beekeeping." 32:26 Mm. Um, and I did that. I got so excited. I read all these books about bees. Um, and I kind of thought that it was, like, better for the environment, you know? It's like you're bringing bees in. 32:37 There was the whole colony collapse disorder thing in the earlier 2000s that got so much press, and it's like, "You need to save the bees." 32:45 Um, but I never actually looked into it as closely as I should have, 'cause I was approaching it from a food perspective- Mm... 32:52 which from, like, a farming perspective, honeybees are very useful to pollinate large monoculture crops of, like, almonds, where all you have are- Mm... almond trees for acres and acres. 33:04 Um, like, you're not gonna get local pollinators to go in and do that, um, 'cause they're like, "We don't care about almonds. [laughs] Why would we live here? This is not our habitat." Um, so you bring in honeybees. 33:15 However, when you bring honeybees into a nice yard that you are trying to do a lot of rewilding with, that you care about bringing in, like, native species, providing a habitat for local animals and pollinators, bringing in honeybees is kind of like dropping a giant high-rise apartment full of people overnight in, like, a small, sleepy town. 33:38 Mm. Um, it really messes with the ecosystem in this way that I think not enough people are aware of or talking about. Um, honeybees, because they are managed by people, kind of get some extra defenses. 33:52 Like, we provide them with a lot of kind of like medicine essentially and food to make it through the winter. Like, we're really propping them up. And so when they get sick, they're this giant colony. 34:05 They have more of a chance of surviving, but they are passing on all those illnesses to all of the other, like, native pollinators. What are bee illnesses? Yeah. Um, they have a lot of them. 34:17 They're mostly like- Is this something I have to worry about now? [laughs] Bee flu? No, not yet. Who knows, though? Um, they're mostly, like, parasite mite kind of- Okay... illnesses that lead- Yeah... to other stuff. 34:27 So we're probably not going to get, like, bee mites all over us [laughs] yet. I hope. I'm not gonna check my desk right now. 34:34 Yeah, so it's, it's kind of this thing where if you want bees because you love bees, or you're like, "I'm really interested in honey production," like, sure, get bees. 34:45 But if you are doing it to, like, save the pollinators, it is actually the worst thing that you can do. Um, and I... 34:53 This is where it connects to chickens for me, but I talked to this, um, person at the Xerces Society that they do a lot with, like, pollinator and insect- Mm... conservation. 35:03 And, uh, this quote that, um, I think it's, like, their director always uses is that, "Saving the bees by getting, um, honeybees is like saving the birds by getting chickens." And yeah, that makes sense. Mm. [laughs] Mm. 35:19 That's really interesting. Did you... So did you actually end up going through with it? Or you looked into it and you're like, "Eh." No, I did get bees. Um, and they were so much work. Like, I really tried to prepare. 35:32 I, you know, had friends that were beekeepers. I asked them a lot of, like, questions. Mm. Um, one of my hives swarmed immediately, which is when they kind of break off to be like, "We're doing so well. 35:43 Let's start a new hive somewhere else." Oof. And then the others didn't last over the winter. Um, and I was like- Mm... "You know what? We're, we're good. I'm good with bees now." Save it for the AirB and B. Yeah. 35:54 I would go to a bee-themed Airbnb with hives. That would be great. And I'm sure that exists. Probably. 36:00 So I was reading your newsletter, which was wonderful, and I saw that you curated a list of books about animals for your May 1st newsletter. Mm-hmm. 36:09 Um, and I was hoping you could tell us about one or two of them and what, what makes them great. Yeah. I love animal books so much. 36:17 Um, I did this kind of very specific list of books that really look at kind of more of, like, the human-animal relationship and have, like, a beautiful sense of wonder about them, which is not all of the animal books. 36:32 So there are many wonderful books that did not make it on this list. Mm. But, um, one of the ones, it's one of my all-time favorite-Animal-related books I've read is Fox and I by Kathryn Raven. 36:45 It came out in the last couple of years. Um, she's kind of a loner who is, like, a wilderness ranger, not very friendly [laughs] with people. 36:55 And she goes off to live in this cabin in the woods and starts being visited by a wild fox every day, and they develop this relationship, and it's kind of her relationship with this wild animal coupled to how it changes her relationships with the people around her. 37:12 Um, and it's just beautiful and magical. Like, my new dream, being best friends with a fox [laughs] um, who, like, brings me their baby fox kits to come visit. Uh, like, what could be more magical? 37:25 Um, but I think that that's so emblematic of what I love about really connecting with, like, nature and the world around you, is it really can change the way you connect with, like, people too, um, and change your life in all these unexpected ways. 37:40 So that's one I love a lot. Um, and then for something a little bit different, Sabrina Imbler's, um, gosh, what, what is it again? How Far the Light Reaches. Um, and they... 37:53 It's kind of a memoir in essays about themselves and sea creatures. So you learn a little bit about these sea creatures, which is great. They're not species that a lot of us, like, we don't live under the sea. 38:06 We cannot breathe water. 38:07 They are, like, different and mysterious from us in all of these ways, and yet somehow Sabrina bringing in their own experiences, like their family's history, um, makes me feel connected to these creatures that are so different, like, finding connections between our species' story. 38:28 Um, one of them, they write about, like, the sturgeon and kind of their migration journey, and couple that with the story of their family, like, moving from one country to another a few generations ago, and it's just beautiful and transcendent. 38:44 Um, and I recommend that too. We interviewed them about their column, I think, for Defector about- Defector... animals in New York. Yeah. And I love that. Yeah. That's such an interesting angle on the city. Mm-hmm. 38:57 I know they actually have a great newsletter. I think it's, like, Creatures NYC, something like that. Yeah, that's what it is. 39:03 Um, and I am like, "Maybe I would have stayed in New York if I had known how much- [laughs]... wildlife stuff there is there." 39:10 So sometime when I go back to visit, I really want to go to one of these, these nature events 'cause there are so many. My in-laws have, like, a fox family in their backyard, and they have a cam, like, a fox cam- Oh... 39:23 for them, and it's really interesting. Um, my mother-in-law takes, like, still shots and sends them to us. Mm-hmm. And the ones that she curates and selects, it's like 39:36 we're surveying them, and through surveying them, like, we are reading so much emotion into their expressions and what they do, especially between the parents and the babies. Mm-hmm. 39:47 And some of the stuff is, like, really universal. Like, obviously the mom is feeding the babies. Like, it's easy to read into that gesture. But, um- Mm-hmm... 40:00 you know, sometimes the camera will catch them having a face that looks, like, sheepish or worried or curious, and it's really hard not to attribute those things to them when you see them in that way. 40:12 Um, but I absolutely love the fox cam and this family, and I've seen, I've seen foxes when I've gone to visit them. Um- Oh... and I think it's, it is a product, that intimacy is a product of development. 40:26 Um, you know, that they, that they are living in such close proximity to my in-laws is definitely because of the encouragement of the Sabers- Yeah... 40:37 on, um, their environment, but they're also, like, seem pretty unbothered by it, so. Yeah. I know there are foxes all over London apparently, which just- Yes... foxes are such magical beings to me. 40:51 Every time I see one, I just don't feel like they're real. They kind of look like a puppet of an animal, but that's just what they look like all the time. [laughs] I agree. I think it's, like, the black stockings. Maybe. 41:01 Yeah. They're so, like, um, yeah, they are very mystical, and, uh, they really feel, like, both cat-like and dog-like in a way- Mm-hmm... that's hard to pin down. Yeah. Um, I've always had an affection for them as well. 41:17 Yeah. Well, the other thing I wanted to ask you about is another recent newsletter you wrote about, um, climate anxiety, writing about sort of climate grief and- Mm-hmm... 41:28 um, you know, the feelings that were spurred by a headline about the bleaching of the coral wreath- reef. Um, [lips smack] 41:35 and you said, "But if I don't take a moment to write about this impending but not yet certain loss that I feel so acutely, what is writing for? We are already lost if we don't bother to grieve what we're losing." 41:47 You mentioned that, like, you wr- have been written, writing about food and agriculture and, by extension, like, the natural world since, like, really early on in your career. 41:58 Um, so I'm curious, like, how do you feel about writing about nature and climate in this particular moment, and what are the emotional challenges and what are the sort of industry challenges as journalism contracts and, like, we just have less, we have fewer outlets to write things that, like, 42:18 represent following your curiosity? Like, I was looking at your portfolio- Mm-hmm... and there were so many interesting things. 42:24 You've written about the history of NASCAR, beekeeping, and things that to somebody else might seem just totally random, not connected at all. Um, [lips smack] 42:34 but, you know, they are connected because they are all things that at one point pinged, like, your attention and curiosity. Mm-hmm. Um, and there are so many amazing outlets like Atlas Obscura that still- Mm-hmm... 42:45 do this type of work, but obviously-They're diminishing, so I mean- Yeah... it's not the most fun topic, but, like, how do you feel about it, and how do you, how do you cope with it? Yeah. 42:56 It's, uh, hard, and I think about it probably too much [laughs] in terms of the, the career side of things. Um, which of course is different from my caring about these issues. 43:09 Um, I think as anyone in journalism or probably, like, the arts in general, I was just at a get-together last night, and, uh, someone is involved with, like, a local playhouse, and they lost, you know, a $25,000 NEA grant over the weekend. 43:24 Um, which they did, like, manage to make up from in private donations, which is great, but, you know, how many organizations aren't able to do that and are really, like, already struggling, and now that's even harder? 43:38 Um, it's really... I think it's hard out there for everyone. [laughs] The arts have never been a great way to make a living. That's not why people go into it, um, but it certainly is getting more difficult. 43:50 Um, so there are some places I really love writing for. Um, you know, I mentioned, like, the Earth Island Journal column. Um, I have some pieces in the works for Orion. 44:01 Um, especially when it comes to, I think, nature, that seems to be a better space because I think there are some nonprofits at least that are helping to fund those and keep them going. 44:14 Um, but yeah, one of the reasons I'm focusing on books, not like that, that is ever a great way to make a living either, um, but it seems more likely to lead to something that is a feasible career than freelancing on an article basis. 44:30 Um, so I have had to kind of cut back from that a little bit to focus on these more long form projects, um, that hopefully will lead to other things. 44:40 Or, like, public speaking or the, you know, 20 other hats that all of us wear to, like, tap dance our way into a, um, profession that works, like, financially and energy-wise, um, for us. 44:54 But, um, yeah, in terms of the natural world though, and writing it down, I think one of the things that's really important to me, and this was the case with Under the Henfluence too, is I think by giving my attention to a topic as a writer, it helps other people see that this might be worthy of their attention too. 45:16 Um, all of us only have so much attention that we can give, and, you know, I think we're all overwhelmed by the news and, like, the number of causes and things that we could care about. 45:27 Um, and I feel like the place that I am best positioned to maybe affect change on a small level is with our care of the environment, the world around us, like, these species that we share our, our neighborhoods with- Mm-hmm... 45:44 uh, much less the planet. 45:45 Um, so that is kind of where I've been focusing my, my energy, on trying to help people see that, like, yes, it's natural for coyotes to share these spaces with us, and, you know, bad things happen when... 46:00 Like, coyotes right now, it's their breeding season, and so they often do this behavior, especially if you're walking a dog, where they escort you out of their territory. Mm. 46:09 Um, because dogs or dog-like creatures are traditionally, like, the scariest thing for a coyote. So they're like- [laughs]... "Please leave my pups alone." 46:17 And next door, all the Facebook neighborhood groups are full this time of year of people being like, "Coyotes are stalking me. They are-" Mm. "... predating me. They wanted to kill me." 46:28 [laughs] And when there are enough of those, like, the coyote gets removed, which really just means the coyote is killed. Yeah. 46:35 And so by putting out this information about these behaviors that are really natural, they're super widespread, like, maybe I have helped save a couple of coyotes. Like, that- Yeah... that's a great day's work for me. 46:48 Um, so that's kind of how, how I have been, been looking at it and my, my ability to, like, do anything, um, in this mess that we're in. I love the way that you talk about, like, your having paid attention to something 47:04 becomes an incentive for other people because for so long, a journalist or a writer taking on a topic was really seen as a, a validation of that topic as important. 47:15 And we've removed a lot of that, um, through, like, the decentralization of social media and the sort of gutting of the traditional media industry, people trying to kind of use it as a counter signal of, like, this is something the elites care about. 47:32 But I think it really is... Like, attention is the last... I wrote this essay for Dir- that's like, attention is what makes us human. Mm-hmm. It's sort of the last bulwark against, um, 47:43 stories that could just be generated by a computer because the computer, ChatGPT, or even somebody using ChatGPT, they can generate it, they can produce the information, but they can't pay attention to it. Mm-hmm. 47:57 And so having really paid attention to something, I think is still and even more so an important signifier that something matters. 48:09 And it's not enough to say it was written and disseminated, and, you know, it showed up on Facebook, but somebody really took the time to direct their attention towards producing this information. And, 48:26 um, that to me is, like, where I want to spend my time and my attention and emotions. And there are certain people in my life where it's like, if they pay attention to something, I pay attention to it. Mm-hmm. 48:40 Whether it's trusting somebody's book recommendation or their political point of view or just the way that they see the world, 48:47 and I'm constantly trying to surround myself with more people like that, who I feel like their attention is a proxy for-Just having a better perspective on life. Yeah, I love that. 49:01 And, I mean, it makes me think about, I think we talk about it less, but, like, the attention economy- Mm-hmm... 49:07 and, you know, social media competing for our, our eyeballs and our attention, and all of these things are trying to grab our attention constantly. 49:14 Um, and I think for me, first with the chickens, [laughs] like, paying deep attention to them made me notice these other things in the yard. 49:24 Um, I think it made me, like, my ability to understand wild bird body language, because it's basically the same as chicken body language, and I, I knew these chickens very well. Um, I go outside now. 49:38 There's a river, like, a five-minute walk from my apartment. And so almost every day, if it's nice out, I bring a book, and I may or may not read it, but I just, like, look at all the birds. And we have bald eagles. 49:49 There are osprey. I saw some fish swimming, like cormorants. 49:52 There are birds all over, and it's just amazing how much I don't want to be on my phone when I'm paying attention to these, these other things, and the just, like, kind of delightful and wonderful experiences that I have by going there, um, by giving this, this place now my attention, where I've been going... 50:16 I have, like, this one spot that I sit almost every time, and the way that that is different this month from, like, two months ago is really fascinating to me. 50:26 Um, I saw this crazy thing where, like, an osprey caught a giant fish, and then a bald eagle swooped in- [laughs]... 50:31 and he wanted to get that fish, and then the Canada geese, like, rushed at the bald eagle, and then some crows were, like, harassing him in the air. And it was like, "This is crazy. This is like a soap opera. 50:42 I'm so into it." And if I wasn't going there all the time and looking around, like, I would have never seen this thing. 50:49 Um, and so yeah, the places we give our attention is not just important but also such a source of, like, delight and connection. Absolutely. I feel like that's a great place to stop. 51:02 Thank you so much for coming on Tasteland. We'll see you all next week, and have a great week. Thank you. 51:12 [outro music]
