Transcript 0:00 [upbeat music] Welcome back to Tasteland. I am your co-host, Francis Zehrer. And I'm Daisy Alioto. And Daisy, who are we talking to today? Today we're talking to Maya Bakai. 0:15 She is the solo GP and founder of Spice Capital, which is an early-stage investment firm, and she [laughs] is famously an investor in Dirt. 0:27 Uh, she was one of the first people to invest in Dirt, um, and believe in me when we didn't know each other, and over the course of our professional relationship, we've also become really good friends. 0:42 So she's a really special person to me, but she's also somebody whose perspective I really value, and I think she's the perfect person to speak to all of the changes that are happening in venture capital right now. 0:55 Mm-hmm. Also famously an investor in Beehive, my employer. Um, I'm very excited to talk to her. Mutuals, we've been mutuals for a while, but I've never met her. Um, while we wait, 1:08 I wanna tell you about what I did this weekend, Daisy. I- And I wanna hear about it. You wanna hear about it? Yes. You saw on my Instagram story. I'm sure you did. You would've- Oh, I was like, "He's, he's f-..." 1:16 Well, you didn't say you were going home, so I was like, "He's not in California." Well, I wasn't in... No, it was not California. I was in beautiful... 1:21 I was in the hills just outside of beautiful Stamford, New York, planting a vineyard. 1:27 Um, a friend, which I think I brought up on this pod before, uh, but a friend who is a winemaker is planting his first vineyard, uh, powered by a legion of, uh, volunteer and trade labor, including myself, um- Are you volunteer or trade? 1:45 Well, I would, I would, I would say I'm a volunteer, but I would also say I'm trade in that he, you know, he gave, gave me a few bottles of wine. I remember that. Um, but then he... 1:54 I mean, this time he gave after, you know, when we left, uh, and also wined us, wined us, not necessarily dined us, dined us, but wined us [laughs] after the hard- Did you pack a lunch? After the planting. 2:05 Did you have a PB&J? What's that? Did you have a PB&J? Did you pack a lunch? No, we went to Solinsky's Smoked Meats in Stamford, and I had a brisket sandwich. It was really good. 2:13 I didn't know there's a Stamford, New York. There i- You've heard of famously Stamford, Connecticut. Famously. Um, everyone I've said this to is like, "Oh, isn't that in Connecticut?" 2:20 Um- No, I respect you enough to be like, "You're confused." No. 'Cause I, I know, like, there's... Whatever. Anyway, um- But let me say... Okay, let me just say, though- Believe men. The believe men sometimes. 2:31 Um, what was really nice, I... It's been a while since I really farmed, as it were. You know, famously, I grew up on a farm, but it's been a while- Mm-hmm... 2:36 since I really got my hands in the dirt, and there were moments- We have to stop saying famously. [laughs] See, that started off as my tic, and now it's your tic. Mm-hmm. Well, fa- [laughs] Oh, no. 2:48 Famously a tic on this podcast. Not this. Um, anyways, okay. Let's see if Maya does it. But it feels so good to be sitting on, around this, like, the hole in the dirt that... 2:56 Basically what I'm doing, he has this, like, machine where he, you know, drills these holes in the dirt, put a vine in there, and you have to fill it in a certain way. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. 3:03 And the, the dirt is so rocky and kind of compacted. Um- Well, vines don't- And it's raining half the day. I have a real dumb question. Vines don't start as seeds, so it's a snippet of a mature vine- Mm-hmm... 3:13 that you're planting? It's a, it's a snippet of a mature vine- Mm-hmm... that's, like, uh, I don't know, a foot and a half tall, two feet tall- Cool... with the roots on it. They trim the roots a little bit. 3:21 It's, like, already sprouting a little bit on top, um, so you have to be very careful not to bury that part, but to bury all the old wood. Um, but yeah, it's raining half the day, so you just get so muddy. 3:31 Your back hurts a bit, but there was, like, one particular moment where I'm sitting there, like, filling up one of these holes and just thinking, like, "Wow, why do, why, why do I work on the internet for a living?" 3:42 Like, this is... I feel so good. [laughs] I work with dirt- And then I remember, like, this is the whole point... I work with dirt every day. Shut up. You could be me. Famously. 3:49 You could work on the internet and work with dirt every day. You could. Um- Are you hiring, Daisy? Is that, is that, is that the implication there? Could be. Um, that's really cool. I, 4:00 um, am going to be going on an adventure of my own- Mm-hmm... because I decided... I don't know if you know this about me, Francis, I'm a very stubborn person. [laughs] I waited... Ben flew to Atlanta today. 4:10 I'll say it, famously. [laughs] Ben flew to Atlanta today for Atlanta Fringe. Mm-hmm. Um, 'cause his play is part of the festival. It's gonna be- The Rich Beyond Your Wildest Dreams worldwide tour continues. Exactly. 4:23 He's gonna be down there for two weeks. I was not sure when in those two weeks I was gonna come. I waited too long to book. I was, like, looking at flights. 4:30 I was like, "I cannot bring myself to get on a Frontier or Spirit flight right now." [laughs] I just had a mental block, and I, and I was like, "I'm gonna drive- Oh... unless somebody convinces me out of it." 4:40 Well, you know, that's... The only way to really convince me out of something like that after I've decided is to, like... He would've had to be like, "I've already bought the tick..." Like, "I bought the ticket for you." 4:50 Did he sabotage your car? Like, pop a tire? No. [laughs] No, he would just have to be like, "These are your tickets." Mm-hmm. Which he didn't do, 'cause obviously he respects my autonomy. 4:59 So I guess I'm, like, f- driving to Atlanta later this week by myself. I've never done it by myself. Wow. Um, I did drive through Atlanta when we drove to New Orleans. Mm. And we broke it up in a similar way. 5:13 I'm gonna have to stop somewhere, either I think Fredericksburg, Virginia, or Durham, if I can get to Durham in a day. We'll see. But the thing is, I did do some research, 5:24 and when we drove before, we definitely drove 95, because I blocked it out a little bit, 'cause y- that's what you do when you end up on 95. Mm-hmm. But, you know, you, it takes you straight through the DMV, 5:36 and you go so close to DC, and, like, they really... Those drivers are really crazy. Mm. I've done that drive going up from the north. Yeah. Yeah. 5:42 Well, like, okay, so, like, New England has aggressive drivers, but these are, like, passive-aggressive drivers. It's like somebody will cut you off to go 40 in front of you in a 60 zone. [laughs] Why? You know, why? 5:53 So- The hatred of the, of your fellow man... everyone says go 81 even though it takes longer, 'cause 81 is the scenic route. Mm. 5:58 So I think I'm gonna take 81, and, um, I just got the brakes on my car fixed, so-You know, hopefully they would've told me something else isn't working, and I think I can do it. But, um, it was very like, uh, 6:14 it was a little bit of a, a rash decision. You know, Daisy, rash decision perhaps. Um, luckily our guest, Maya, is here, known for doing [laughs] due diligence as an investor. Oh, she can do that too. 6:27 Maybe she can do some due diligence on your- We'll talk about it... due diligence on your decision. [laughs] All right. We'll see if Maya wants to come to Atlanta with me. [upbeat music] Welcome, Maya, to the pod. 6:43 Thank you for coming on. Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be on this. Um, I was a little nervous at first. 6:49 I was intimidated, to be honest, because I regard journalists and creatives, like they're the highest on my totem pole. I think they're... You guys are just... 6:58 You're like, "Keep going," but you guys are just, I don't know, you're curious, intelligent. 7:02 You have to piece together a lot of different, you know, a lot of thing, different things in different domains, and I, I think journalists would make for really good investors to be honest. Mm. 7:11 Um, but anyways, for all those reasons, I was very intimidated to hop on this podcast. I'm also a big fan of the show, obviously a big supporter of Daisy. Mm. And I love Beehive, which is what you use, um- Mm-hmm... 7:21 for Creator Spotlight. And so I think, you know, this is just awesome, and I'm very, very flattered to be on this show. The, the feeling is mutual. The... You just said something about journalists making good investors. 7:33 I... This is the second time I've heard that take. Nick Denton, formerly of Gawker, right, was on a few podcasts- Mm. Yes... 7:39 like a month or two ago, and he was espousing that take on every single one, at least like two or three of them. Um, say more. Well, I feel like Daisy can talk about this. 7:48 Like she's the one that planted a seed in my head around how venture capitalists are... What it- what was it? The invisible hands of- Oh, yes. We talked about this a lot. So Maya and I actually... 7:58 I was remembering when I was getting ready, like this po- the idea for this podcast before I got matched with Francis, there was this idea of a podcast that Maya and I would host. 8:07 And it would actually talk about a lot of the same topics we talk about, but you know, I would kind of bring the cultural perspective and Maya would bring, despite being very culturally literate, which is why we get along, you could bring more of the sort of like hard financial perspective. 8:22 Mm-hmm. Um, but one thing we were really interested in unpacking is how venture capital was sort of the invisible curator of millennial taste. Mm. 8:30 A lot of the brands that we associate with millennials, like be it Uber or Sweetgreen, were like lifestyle subsidies from the zero interest rate period. And so 8:43 that, that's like to me endlessly fascinating because if you look at what the next curator is going to be of Gen Z or of Gen Alpha, it's far more likely to involve AI. Like- Mm... 8:55 ChatGPT could be the invisible curator of what we consider the lifestyle of this generation or the cultural signifiers that become attached to them. 9:06 And that's interesting, and it's, to me, pretty scary, but we're also very interested in talking about like what comes after the girl boss- Mm... which is where that girl boss meme came from. 9:17 And I feel like there's like, um, you know, Emily Sundberg, former guest of the pod in Feed Me was talking about a little bit of a resurgence of the Girl Boss podcast. Mm-hmm. 9:27 But I kinda think we're like post-boss in general, like post-girl boss, post-boy boss, um, post-everything, and that's something that is hard to say like what's next. 9:39 And so when Maya and I like connect, I feel like I sort of tell her what I think is like bubbling up in culture, and she tells me what is bubbling up in venture, basically. The dollars, on the dollar. Yeah. 9:55 And like we keep each other informed, uh, about which way the wind is blowing. 10:00 Um, but as investing has become more like vibes based and even like memetic, and the stock market has basically become like another entertainment platform, which is a big trend that I've been following. Like 10:15 memes and culture like are influencing venture more than they ever have before, and they're acting on venture in the same way that venture was acting on millennials when these funds were a lot more capitalized and they could say like, "No, you're gonna ride in a stranger's car now," or, "You're gonna like 10:38 stay in a stranger's home now, and this is gonna be normal." [laughs] So it's weird 'cause it's like culture is sort of like biting back, but then everyone's getting wrecked by AI at the same time. 10:50 Well, and let me just say quick too, the, the whole... Like you're saying that AI is the next curator, but that's still venture as a curator, just like a little more mediated, right? Um, well, less, no. 11:01 Maya, you should speak. [laughs] Well, I was saying that I feel like venture is becoming... Like venture and AI are synonymous in a funny word, so ki- kinda taking both of your points. 11:09 I mean, the, the first point around millennial culture and what's the next curator for Gen Z, I, I, I still think there's the, the spillover, like Blank Street Coffee, that West Village article. 11:20 We're still wearing and dressing, or Gen Z is still wearing and dressing and choosing to play that game. Um- That's a really good point... right. 11:28 And so I think we're still seeing like it takes like te- you infuse a bunch of capital into a sector of business, or you say, "This is cool, this isn't," and then it takes like 10, 12 years for it to like make it through the supply chain, proliferate everywhere. 11:40 So I think we're still feeling those effects of the last observed era. Like I think that money is still very much in the system. 11:47 But then, yes, Francis, to your point-I do think both of your points, AI is kind of the next curator, but it's, from my perspective, it's more because I think all investors have just become so succumbed to the same groupthink that the algorithms have. 12:01 Like, they, they... I can meet any VC, most any VC. I would say 99% of VCs I'll have coffee with. It's actually pointless for me to have coffee with them because I know their exact take on everything. 12:12 You know, when ChatGPT came out, the, every single VC was like, "Ugh, we would never invest in a ChatGPT wrapper." Like, I just knew that was the take, and that's because somebody wrote a blog post about it. 12:23 Or when, um, zero interest rates were happening, anything in brick-and-mortar, people thought, ugh, you know, "Why would, why would you ever invest in physical goods? Why would you ever invest in brick-and-mortar?" 12:33 And it's just the groupthink keeps getting worse and worse. And so it- it- it starts all the way at the top. Um, don't get me started [laughs]... but it starts all the way at the top. Like, follow the money. 12:43 It starts all the way at the top with the allocators who back some of these VC funds. Even they are reading the same blog post. 12:49 So it's funny, like, as the internet has become more democratized, everyone is seeing, hearing, reading the same thing. And so those curators, their point of views are all kind of converging. 12:59 And so it's very hard to, you know, it's very hard to even distinguish AI versus human because they're one and the same. Mm-hmm. They're, they're all... It's the same input of information, right, that they're feeding. 13:09 And so that, that's, I don't know how to, to fight that beyond just not subscribing. Like, don't read what, what the consensus take is. Mm-hmm. Come to your own conclusions. Like, really go bottoms up. 13:21 Understand what the, the part of the world that isn't always online is doing to understand real life behaviors. Get out of the coasts, right? Like, that coastal elite- Mm-hmm... 13:33 um, groupthink and, and framework doesn't really apply to the rest of, not even America. Like, we're in a global world now, the global world. 13:40 And so I think, like, those are some of the behaviors that I don't see most people doing that are in seats of power that are curators. And the ones who do, they really succeed. 13:50 Like, the Stanley Cup is so gross, but, like, they succeeded because they went after mainstream America, right? They didn't... 13:57 I guarantee nobody who came up conceptualized the Stanley Cup, you know, consulted with, like, cool kids in Bushwick. That, that wouldn't have worked, right? Like, you have to- Mm-hmm... 14:06 actually, to reach scale, you need global scale in today's day and age, and you need to have a different flow of information. 14:12 So, so much about, you know, resisting that AI is actually saying no to things [laughs] rather than do it, like, consuming more. 14:20 Consuming more, in my opinion, actually hurts you, uh, which is very counterintuitive to how we were all raised, where we were raised to think, like, the more knowledge you have, the more, the more, um, you know, wisdom you have. 14:31 But I almost think it's opposite. [laughs] Like, you want to be blissfully ignorant. But that's kind of my rant. We can take it in a lot of different directions. 14:37 Um, no, it's, it's so interesting, like, talking about these information sources, 'cause, like, we're gonna talk about Technology Brothers, obviously. 14:46 Um, I don't know that any of us actually read the full Information piece though, because nobody I know actually subscribes. 14:51 [laughs] And I, I came across this tweet again that was like, "The, the biggest black market in San Francisco right now is PDFs of Information articles." 14:59 Um, but you know, I don't think anyone actually read it, but I don't know that anyone actually watched the show, so we'll get into that. But [laughs] 15:06 um, I left Andy, Andy Weissmann at USV, our mutual friend, a 10-minute voice memo yesterday talking about how much- Classic Daisy... Classic Daisy. Classic move... 15:16 how much Clone has changed my information diet in a short amount of time. 15:20 Because I, I think I had told you, Francis, like, I was not happy with my information diet, but I was still sort of limping along, primarily getting links from Twitter until it, like, completely broke. 15:32 Like, it's really fully broken right now. [laughs] Like, I don't think we've, like... I, like, I don't even know that enough people are talking about how broken it is. Um, it's broken, and also we launched Clone. 15:42 And or- initially we had, like, a list of tech blogs we were gonna check every day. So usual suspects, The Information, Wired, you know- Mm-hmm... as a standard to know what's happening in San Francisco. 15:52 Ars Technica, The Verge. The Verge story stream, very impressive. I actually love visiting that website now- Mm-hmm... which I was not doing before- Hmm... uh, because I was so reliant on Twitter. 16:02 And then we had these, like, other blogs which are, like, the ones that VCs read, that you were talking about, Maya. Like, Not Boring and Stratechery, and, like, The Generalist. But- Mm-hmm... 16:13 I don't know that it's, like, I hadn't looked at them in a while, but when they first hit Substack, they were very vibrant. Like, people were giving more original takes. 16:22 I think there was a lot of subscription money flowing in during lockdown. Mm-hmm. 16:26 And I went back and I was sort of like, now that I'm checking every day, I'm like, "Oh, you know, these are not as vibrant as I remembered them. They don't have as many followers as I remembered them." 16:38 So it even feels like some of the source takes are not as original as they used to be. Hmm. 16:43 Um, and then, you know, Paul Graham will write something and, you know, everything, everyone drops everything to read Paul Graham. 16:51 Um, I feel like all of my, my leftist friends get, like, really perturbed when I bring him up. [laughs] I'm like, "That's my, that's my emotional support centrist." 16:58 Um- [laughs] You know, Paul Graham will still write something, but he's, like, he writes about, like, how to think. He doesn't give real alpha or, like, a real prediction on industries. 17:10 So we're checking these, but we're also like, "Well, we should also know what's happening with youth culture." So we start sprinkling in, like, Dazed and i-D and Highsnobiety. Mm-hmm. 17:18 And then I'm like, "Oh, you know, if I'm checking Financial Times first thing in the morning because they're already awake and that's gonna be my first headline, I should also check Le Monde and all the other major- Mm-hmm... 17:28 international newspapers." And then, you know, if I'm checking LA Times, I should check Houston Chronicle because that covers just as big a region as LA. Mm-hmm. And so now I added in all the regional newspapers. 17:39 And so Clone, which was, like, supposed to be tech and culture, and still very much is, now has this daily blog roll. 17:48 It's actually a lot more similar to how I used to operate-When I was working in mainstream news where I'd check every regional newspaper, every major international newspaper, every regional public radio station, um, plus all of the tech blogs. 18:02 Mm-hmm. And I feel already so much better informed, but I'm like, am I at risk of being the opposite of these very focused consensus takes that are so easy to pay attention to? Like, are you becoming too uncurated? 18:19 Well, I guess just like too- Are you paying attention to the wrong things, essentially? [laughs] Yeah, or is it just too eclectic? 18:25 Like, that was what we ran into with Dirt, um, where we were like, "It's gonna be an entertainment newsletter," and then b- we're interested in perfume and sports and so many different things that I think it made it less legible to people. 18:40 And the advantage that people who are group thinkers have, to bring it back to Maya's point, 'cause I know I've been talking for a while, is that they're legible. And in order to be investable, you have to be legible. 18:51 Yeah. But being legible doesn't mean you're smart. It doesn't mean that you have grit. 18:56 It can actually mean you're quite simple-minded, but it doesn't matter if the complex thinkers get washed out early on because they can't make themselves legible enough to raise capital, whether it's from, like, LPs as Maya's fund is funded, or for me, from individual VCs who have LPs of their own. 19:16 Mm-hmm. Um- That's a, that's a great point. Sorry, Francisco. No, yeah. So s- this is bringing me to something I read shortly before we got on here. 19:25 So Lenny of Lenny's Newsletter, if anybody listening doesn't know, it's this, like, a million subscribers, this newsletter mainly for product managers, but for the tech community more broadly. 19:34 Um, but he just published the results of his first how tech work... Th- th- this survey, how tech workers really feel about work right now. There was 8.2- Mm... thousand respondents. I responded as well at one point. 19:46 Um, but- How did you feel?... it was like... Huh? How do I feel? Well- [laughs]... neither, perhaps neither good or not- Sorry, I didn't mean to cut. [laughs] No, no, no. 19:52 But, uh, um, I took out two takeaways, but one feels very relevant here. Uh, this was their third takeaway. Startup founders are the happiest people in tech, and I'll list off the takeaways. 20:03 They've got the highest career optimism, the highest job function optimism, more optimism compared with last year, the highest job enjoyment, the lowest burnout levels. 20:13 Perhaps less surprisingly, founders are the most committed to their roles with the lowest quitting intentions. 20:18 Finally, founders feel more engaged and have a significantly stronger sense of belonging than all other roles. Um, which going into that was something you were just saying, Daisy. This is how I got there. 20:28 This idea of, like, to be investable, you have to be legible, but that doesn't mean you're smart, and that doesn't mean you have grit. Um, I think, like, 20:37 to be a successful founder, you need to have this kind of naive optimism. You need to have this grit. 20:43 So I think legibility doesn't necessarily equal grit, but from what I understand of, like, kind of the founder archetype is there is this grit. There is this optimism. 20:52 There is this, like, you know, the, uh, the, the Sisyphus imagined happy to it, right? Well, yeah. I mean, Maya and I have talked about the role of optimism and delusional optimism so many times- Mm-hmm... 21:03 because there is a wisdom in knowing when to quit. And I have thought at certain points, like, you know how a raccoon... [laughs] I know. She's already laughing. I have some thoughts. 21:16 Maybe the raccoon that used to live in my parking garage that I haven't seen in a while. Hope he's okay. Um, I actually think I found out about this from Where the Red Fern Grows, but- [laughs] 21:25 Like- You know, when we read that in fourth grade- [laughs]... a kid fainted in my class at the, at the end. You know, like, the scene. 'Cause the dog dies? Yeah. Mm. Yeah. Kid fainted. I... That's a valid response. 21:33 Or, like, had a seizure and fainted. Well, maybe not. That's not a valid response. [laughs] No, yeah, but it- But, um, I cried... it happened. I wouldn't say I had a seizure. 21:41 Okay, so, like, is there something about, like, trapping a raccoon where it's like if you cut a hole in a log, it's big enough for a raccoon to put their arm through but not pull their fist back out, and you put something shiny there. 21:50 They grab the shiny thing, and they don't let go, so they're trapped in the log. And it's like, "Just let go." Mm. I often feel like that's me. [laughs] Like, I am, I'm the raccoon. And, but I was... I don't know. 22:03 Like, I, I mentioned in the intro, like, Maya, you were one of the first people to believe in me. Like, you were the only person who didn't ask, "Who else is investing?" 22:12 And you talked, you stopped me halfway through my pitch to you on why you should invest in Dirt, and you just cut me off and were like, "I'm in," um, which is so, so unusual. 22:23 Um, and basically, like, won my loyalty forever in that moment. But, um, you know, uh, we've had ups and downs. 22:31 We're a startup, and there's been certain points where you're like, if you're running a startup, any startup, Dirt, any other startup, like, you're, like, running out of juice. Mm-hmm. 22:42 And, you know, I always picture it as, like, the in, like, Top Gun where you have, like, the pilot, and they come down, and they... Or Star Wars or whatever. You just pull up at the last minute. 22:53 And I always pull up the plane. But I remember there was one time I was talking to Maya, and I was like, "I don't know if I can pull up the plane this time." 23:03 And it was such a vulnerable moment 'cause I was telling her, like, um, I was asking her as an investor but also as my friend, "Will you be disappointed if I lose your money?" Like, don- I, you know, I can't even... 23:17 Like, if I don't even return what you put in, like, let alone make you more money, but I just lose it all. And you said something to me that has... It's one of the nicest things anyone's ever said to me. 23:28 It stuck with me, and I've come back to it a lot over the last couple years. And I, I wanna say it, but I'm not gonna cry, so I'm just gonna, like- [laughs]... gather myself. But 23:38 you said, um, "I would've paid a million dollars just for the privilege of becoming your friend." And that is the nicest thing anyone's ever said to me. I [laughs] not, not gonna cry. 23:51 Um- [laughs] She's gonna cryNo, I'm not. [laughs] No crying in podcasting, famously. Um, but it was the nicest thing, and, and obviously we kept going. That was like- Yeah... frigging two years ago now. 24:04 Um, but you know, when I was talking to Trevor, Trevor also has been on the podcast. We had a great episode with him. Mm-hmm. 24:10 And he was like telling me like, "You know, I can see in you all the things that make you a good founder can make, could make you a bad founder because you're just not gonna let go of the shiny object." Mm-hmm. 24:21 And I think it's because I'm mission driven. 24:23 Like, I didn't see a hole in the market for [laughs] like a digital media company like Dirt and say like, "I don't really care about this, but I think there's a lot of money to be made in plugging this hole." 24:33 I was like, "I really wanna show that there's a future for media and technology in novel combinations." And, um, I- Whether or not there's a lot of money to be made is kind of the implication I'm getting there. Well, 24:47 no, the money's important. Like, but it doesn't... 24:52 So to go back to this idea of being mission driven, I think the reason why startup founders are the happiest respondents in that, even though they're probably under the most pressure, is 'cause they have the most agency. 25:04 Yes. And like this goes back to like the post boss thing. Like, I love what I work on every day. Um, every day though, it feels like just being punched in the face, and I just 25:18 can't imagine having all of the same doubts and issues that media and technology have right now, and then also having a boss to answer to. [laughs] Um, so I really understand. 25:31 I'm, I'm actually really not surprised by that answer, but Maya, I'm, I'm wondering, like I'm curious- Yeah... if that surprises you. So I, I think that there's two archetypes of people also. 25:42 I, I think like this is applying to all the world. There's the people who love it for the agency, but I also think the reason why people are positive on being a founder is 'cause they feel purpose. 25:51 And I think there's a big... 25:52 And I would even say some of the people who subscribe to Lenny's newsletter are probably this archetype, where they love the idea of being a founder, and they've been pedestaled by being a founder. 26:02 So I think there's actually two groups in parallel moving and feeling happy about their journey on starting something. There's like the archetype where I love the idea of being a founder more than any purpose. 26:14 Like, I don't... 26:15 If, if there, if money was taken away from me, if I didn't have the title, if I wasn't part of Y Combinator, if I didn't have all the accolades that came with it, I might not be, I might not even stay a founder. 26:26 But while I'm in it, I'm really happy because I feel- Yeah... like I'm finally part of something. 26:30 I, maybe I didn't fit in the traditional job market, and this is where I found my people, and I can con- I have a little bit of false control of what, you know, of my company. So I think there's that aspect as well. 26:42 That's... Ultimately, people are happy when they have purpose. And being a founder, it used to be such an... And this is like how what I wanna maybe talk about, 26:51 and when you guys were kind of thinking of topics to discuss for today, this is something that really resonated with me is there's so many people that have, just want to be founders for the sake of it because they've been put on a pedestal, you know? 27:05 And like that whole title, that whole industry used to be an outcast if you were a founder. Like, the Steve Jobs think different, right? The crazy ones. 27:13 You don't see that that much anymore, and if you do, it's a, people are playing into it, right? Like they're, it's, it's a trope. Like, they're almost like leaning in heavily into being a crazy, autistic founder. 27:24 Like, they're, they're turning it into some sort of bit. Um, you don't actually see people doing things that often, which is why I find my job to be pretty easy. 27:33 I can spot somebody who's genuinely trying to do something different or net new pretty quickly or someone who has that passion pretty quickly 'cause most people think they do, but they're just playing into this founder paradigm, which has been so publicized, written about. 27:48 It's all over the media. I mean, even Clone, you're saying Daisy, we're, we're covering tech and culture, but we use the iPhone like six hours a day. So tech is part of all of our lives, like it or not. Mm-hmm. 27:59 It's not even a subculture anymore. It's like become so mainstream. The Mad Seven, all tech companies pretty much. And so I just think like there's, i- it's shifted so quickly in the last two decades, and people don't... 28:14 I think a lot of times people don't attribute the fact that a lot of this is just, a lot of things that are going wrong are just because of group think, which maybe it's the fault of tech to begin with. 28:22 But there was a book in 2000 that my dad loves. I remember he was obsessed with it. It was called The World Is Flat. I think it was published like 2000 or 2002, and the guy was right. Like, the world is flat now. 28:34 There is, everything is democratized. You can pick up anything from any part of the world, despite tariffs and everything going on. 28:42 Information is disseminated widely, and so what's happened as a result of that, we all have the same point of view. 28:49 It's a really, really bad state of the world to be in, and it's a really bad state of the world where the people in power also have the same point of view. And they're not, you're not encouraged to think outside the box. 28:59 You're not cur- encouraged to... You're not incentivized to, to create n- net new solutions. And I think like that's where I get my purpose from. Like, I have access to capital. 29:08 I better be funding things that most people are not because, well, one, from a returns perspective, if you actually wanna make money and you fund what's already been done, you're gonna get average returns. 29:18 Venture is so risky. There's no point of investing in something and locking it up for 10 years. It's like a 10 or 15-year asset class. 29:26 Takes so long for a company to go public, and then for it to be average, what was the point of that? I could have invested in the S&P 500. I need to invest in things that are above average or below. 29:35 It's like moonshot or bust. This is- You know? Somebody once told me like word like w- the, the problem with best practices is by definition they produce average results, right? Yes. 29:44 Which is kind of what you're saying.Right. It's like the whole world is in this reversion to the mean space, like ev- at every industry, and I just think it creates really bad output. It doesn't move society forward. 29:54 And you wanna make sure that for society to grow and for, like, human society, human civilation-- human civilization to flourish, you need to fund things that are net new, that are... 30:03 where people are, like, really purpose-driven, where they're really curious. You have to make sure there's capital for those types of endeavors. 30:09 And I- This is-- So w- you're describing your cultural arbitrage thesis, right? Yeah. Which I've been wanting to ask about. I guess. Yes, yes. I mean, that still needs to be fleshed out. 30:18 I'm hoping I can hire Daisy to ghostwrite that one [laughs] for me one day. I'm kidding. I know. Wow. Um- We should join forces. We really have the- Oh, yeah. We should join-... full skill set... 30:27 we should join forces on that. To write that. Um- Um, well, I mean, I... But I think your earliest-- your Crocs investment, the investment that really led to you having- Mm-hmm... 30:37 money to make your initial angel checks is an example of cultural arbitrage. It's my favorite story, and I know that you tell it on, like, every podcast that you come on, but our audience hasn't heard it, so. All right. 30:49 I'll-- I'm happy to share. Play, play it again, Sam. [laughs] Play it again. Um, yeah, so the Crocs story is a good one. 30:55 Um, and I just, I just saw, like, somebody shared one of those Instagram graphics talk today, this morning, about how Crocs was two hundred million dollars in debt in twenty eighteen, and how they turned it around, and now they're a ten billion dollar business. 31:08 But the TLDR of the story is that I grew up in South Florida. Crocs were all the rage when I was a kid. 31:15 My parents never got me real Crocs, and they got me the Walmart and Payless knockoff ones, which was horrible and traumatizing. [laughs] I'm so sorry. And you never for- you never forget those, you know, those desires. 31:27 Mm-hmm. And then when I finally, you know, like, had my jobs and saved up some money in high school, I bought my first pair of Crocs and the sandals. Like, they had these high heel sandals, which should come back. 31:37 Like, they're awesome. And I brought them to college with me, and I was, like, just made fun of. It was so out of style, but I was kind of, at that point, I, I... 31:47 at that point, I had to just, like, do it ironically and say, "No, Crocs is gonna have a comeback." And so I manifested, essentially. But just kidding. 31:55 I was looking at the company, and then, you know, from twenty, let's say, like, thirteen to twenty eighteen, they weren't really doing too much, but twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen, [lips smack] 32:04 they started kind of engaging the way high fashion was. They started doing drops. So they would do, like, a random drop with Balenciaga or Cheetos. 32:14 Like, they would just pick brands and kinda leverage their brand identity to build themselves back. 32:18 And I thought it was pretty interesting that they were operating like a high fashion brand, but it was this ugly, you know, mainstream, every mall has a Crocs store. And I was watching them do this. 32:28 I was also simultaneously getting a degree in finance and learning how the stock market works. 32:32 And so one of the first stocks I bought in Robinhood, which at the time, like, Robinhood had come to my school to pitch their beta, um, so I was on the beta of Robinhood. I bought shares of Crocs. 32:43 And it was funny 'cause, like, I kinda learned how to invest with Crocs. And then when the pandemic-- So I, I bought some shares, didn't really think about it. 32:51 You know, kept being excited as Crocs was progressing, as they were making moves in society. 32:56 [lips smack] And during the pandemic, when everything went to work from home, um, I saw on the news that LeBron James was spotted in Crocs, and I was like, "Oh, this is interesting." 33:06 And I saw all these kids start buying them. It was all sweatshirts and comfy shoes. 33:11 And I just, you know, I was curious 'cause everything had crashed, so it was, like, a big shopping opportunity during COVID, the whole market crash. 33:18 And it was starting to rebound a little bit, so I'm like, "Okay, what's, what's a good investment opportunity?" Of course, I went to my shares of Crocs, which were really down, and I looked all over social media. 33:27 It was everywhere. I looked at the finances. My brother at the time was doing investment banking, and he was working from home, so we had access to all the research. And I was like, "Go pull up all the reports." 33:36 And there weren't any, which is very interesting. Like, there wasn't even mainstream coverage on the company. 33:42 There were, there were some ratings around their debt, but no one was, like, doing big reports on their equity. And so I just started looking at the financials. I'm like, "This is so undervalued." 33:51 And they've been growing, and they're culturally growing. Like, you see their social media, but their stock is underperforming. So I made a really big bet. 33:58 I actually even tried to convince my dad to put his, like, 401[k]. I was like, "You should put a big chunk of money into Crocs right before their earnings." It didn't work, but I was like, "Let me do it myself." 34:07 [lips smack] So I took all of my, all of my savings at that point, and just, like, I really researched. So it took me probably a month of research, and I made a big bet into Crocs right before their earnings. 34:19 Lo and behold, their earnings come out, it's a surprise beat, and the, the Croc, uh, the stock soars. And I, I had options, so, like, those, you know, doubled, tripled. 34:29 And, like, right away, I turned, like, 20K, then that became 60K, then became 100K, and it just kept going, kept going, and I kept snowballing it. 34:35 And it was hilarious, 'cause for multiple quarters, like, the analyst every quarter... So at the end of the quarter, there's earnings, right? For multiple quarters, they would, they would be surprised. 34:44 Like, they were so stupid that they didn't look, they didn't look at the cultural value of this company, that they would be like, "Oh, well, they beat this time. There's no way they'll do it again. 34:53 It's just a shoe company." And then again, they would beat earnings, and they're like, "Oh, they beat this time. There's no way," you know. "Don't, don't go all in on Crocs." 35:00 And that just kept happening until finally all the analysts at the top, when it was, like, already priced in now, the company is no longer undervalued, then they started writing reports because their s- you know, their clients are like, "Why the hell is a shoe company outperforming my portfolio?" 35:15 Right? And so, like, now they got excited when it was too late. 35:18 And it just kinda showed me, like, man, if you are a institutional investor specifically, you have stakeholders to answer to, it's really hard to go to your investors and pitch something that is not currently doing well. 35:31 Going back to kinda the group think and going outside of the status quo. It's very hard, even for me. It's very hard even for me to raise money when I'm saying... They're like, "So what are you gonna invest in?"... 35:40 ChatGPT, I'm like, "No, that already happened. I have to invest in the next thing," right? Like, I have to go look at quantum computing. 35:46 I have to look at, from the media perspective, I have to look at, okay, if everything's democratized, all content creation is democratized, where is the value gonna lie? 35:53 I have to look at what's next, not what's happening today. And it's very hard to be in that investor seat and actually make that calculus. 36:00 If you do, there's so much money to be made, but if I don't have money myself, like, I have to go convince other people. 36:06 And to Daisy's point, most people subscribe to the group think, and, you know, they're blissfully ignorant, they're happy, they're doing what, what they know, but that's not how you generate alpha. 36:16 And like alpha is really what you're looking for. Beta, which is just the market average, you don't want beta as an investor. You want alpha. You wanna outperform. Um, 36:26 that's how I think about all of these things constantly, right? When I'm meeting with companies or just reading and listening to ideas. Um, uh, I wanna talk about the, like, creator economy investments. 36:37 So obviously, you have investments in- Mm-hmm... creator economy businesses. I'm not sure if you have invested in any, like, creator first businesses, which that's been a thing more recently. 36:46 Slow Ventures raised a- Mm-hmm... $60 million fund. Uh, there's also Creator Ventures. They recently raised a $45 million fund. 36:53 I'm not sure if that one is more focused on creator economy businesses or creator businesses, which I know that the Slow Ventures one is. 37:00 Um, but this is interesting to me, like, my understanding of it is that with Slow Ventures, they're looking to invest in creators who've built a large audience and have already started building a business around it that's based on, like, other products, not just media. 37:15 Mm-hmm. Um, but where the c- what, what, part of the big value or the big value is the size of the audience and the connection with them, right? The trust in them. 37:23 So what they're basically investing in is a pre-built marketing function that they can then sell products, whe- whether it's consumer pack- like a MrBeast Feastables, consumer packaged goods, whatever. 37:32 Um, yeah, I'm curious what you make of this. David's protein bars. If you need somebody to launch your blog- David Protein bars... you know who to come to. [laughs] They just closed their what? Series D you said, Dave? 37:39 $75 million fund. Is an A? It was a A. It's lo- Is it? Let's check Clone. Let me see. It's on Clone. Let's check Clone. Yeah. $75 million series A. Yeah. All right. But is that a creator? 37:47 But that's not a, but that's not a creator business, right? Yeah. That's like a- I'm, I'm actually pretty... Okay, so I think creator businesses were... Sorry, let me, let me let you finish your question. No, no, no. 37:57 That, that was it. I'm, I'm just curious- Okay... what you make of these, of like investing- Yeah... in creator businesses like this. Yeah. So I think when you're an investor, you have to look at, 38:07 like we were talking about before, Blank Street Coffee is still, like the Zerp era is still spitting out new Blank Street Coffees. Like, there's still money, so these trends go longer than you would think. 38:16 They happen fa- like, they, they don't happen as fast enough, and then they go longer than you would think. And- The creator [laughs] All right... Zerp is still shooting blanks. [laughs] Zerp is still shooting blanks. 38:26 Um- [laughs]... I'm like, "Please, I need this money to wash out." I mean, so many people raised for like twen- 10 years of runway. Literally. I have... 38:33 and I get investor updates where we're like, "We're, we still have seven years of runway." I'm like, "Return the money. You are blowing this money. Please give me back the money." 38:42 [laughs] Um, I was like, "It's not gonna work." Um, anyways, so yeah. I think creator businesses were so amazing 15 years ago, 10 years ago, and like, I just don't think, um... I think MrBeast is a great example. 38:57 Like, he started six, seven years ago, and now he, this is kind of the peak of him capitalizing on a product. I, I just, I'm, I'm very skeptical of new creator businesses. 39:09 I think that, you know, there's like 1,000 tequila brands launched by celebrities. Which one of those has been a household name? Like, to actually... It's a gimmick, right? 39:19 People are trying to sh- shortcut marketing, and they're pretty much saying like, "Instead of building mas- mass brand loyalty, let's just leverage the audience of an existing creator." 39:29 [lips smack] But people, the consumers are smart. Like, they understand the gimmick. And when have you ever seen a mass... And it usually ends up being CPG brands, right? 39:37 'Cause most of these creators have more, like, long, they don't have the coastal elite as their audience, they have the rest of America, and they have the Walmart demographic. 39:47 And so even places like Walmart and Target, like, they actually search for creators to slap on products with. 39:54 So they'll be like, "We'll give you ultimate distribution, so we'll make sure you're in every single door if you develop this." Okay, David's protein bars are doing well. 40:01 Let's, let's rip off David and put, just insert random celebrity on it, and- I was, I was in Walmart, uh, on Friday on my way upstate- Yeah... 40:09 to buy some supplies, and there was Jesser, who's this big basketball YouTuber, was, like him- Okay... and three other creators were, were plastered on some, like, you know- Right... 40:17 little, like, plastic basketball thing set that you buy. Exactly. So they'll do JVs with celebrities 'cause that's their marketing in store, right? So they're like, "How do we compete? We wanna own the brand. 40:26 Instead of us giving the brand to an independent, we want it to be a Walmart created brand. We will go 50/50 with these creators, and we'll give them... 40:34 If we wanna charge 20% margin more than what the s- the standard basketball is, we'll partner with these basketball players." I think that's a very different business model. 40:44 And I think in that scenario, yes, for a Walmart, for someone who already has distribution, which in consumer businesses you need distribution, Walmart is literally a gatekeeper 'cause they own all the stores, they have all the retail shelves, and that's where people will buy. 40:56 There, yeah, it's, it's a, it's another way to save money on marketing, right? You're saying instead of me spending X money to drive people to go convert, they're already at my store. Here's my differentiator. 41:06 That's one type of model. I think it works there. But to create a new brand with the creator and just let, slap their audience on it, I think that the consumers are getting smart. 41:15 And if you think about any household names, I don't know any household names that were started with a creator. Like, I just don't think that's gonna survive. Are you distinguishing between celebrities and creators here? 41:24 Like, would you, like, exclude, like, Hailey Bieber's Rhode from that? [lips smack] Um, I think I'm... Yeah, I, I think I'm, um... Well, even Rhode, right? 41:34 And even Kylie Cos- People who aren't already famous for something else other than being a creator, basically. Yes. Yes, exactly. Yeah. And like, for example- Yeah... even Kylie Cosmetics, right? 41:42 The lip kit, that fell off a cliff. Yeah. So like, yes, it got to a billion dollar valuation. Yes, they might... It's good for the creators. 41:48 Like, they might, or the celebrities, creators, maybe I am using it interchangeably, but you don't see longevity 'cause it's only as good as the m- the c-... creator pushing the product. Well, yeah. 41:58 It's not, doesn't have its own standalone base. This- And I think to build... Yeah. No, this real quick. 42:03 I was just, I was curious how Prime is doing, you know, the, the Paul, the p- uh, Logan Paul, KSI drink, and I found, look, you know, I'm not exactly sure, like, the, the accuracy of this, of these details, but I found this post, this LinkedIn post saying that, um, this is from six months ago, that, um, at one point Prime went from dom- this seems, uh, like unreal numbers. 42:23 At one point Prime went from dominating 41.2% of the sports drink market to just 10.4% by 2024, losing its edge as prices and demand collapsed. 42:32 As, as it got distributed wider, scarcity dropped, which made it less attractive, and then also the prices dro- Mm... the prices had to drop, became less of a premium product. 42:40 But yeah, I don't, I don't, again, I can't speak to the accuracy of these numbers, but that's another thing of, like, a lot, a lot of fire at first, but then, you know, as it wears on, well, why, why wouldn't I just buy Gatorade? 42:52 Right. And I think you, you need to build a brand universe. I think in today's world you need to build actual brand loyalty, a brand universe. You need to build a differentiated product. 43:01 If your only edge is the fact that you're slapping on someone else's audience, it's not gonna sustain. 43:07 It'll have, it's, it's, you're playing in the hype cycle game, which is great, and I think the, great for a short period of time. 43:14 So if you are very savvy and you know you have investors around you who know how, how this capitalist game works, and you time it really well and you sell at the peak hype, yeah, it's great. 43:23 So if Slow has the right team and setup to do it, they'll probably make a lot of money. Will it have longevity? Are you building 20 or 50 or 100-year-old, like, Coca-Cola type franchises? No, definitely not. 43:35 And so it's a faster cycle, and what I think is the issue is that people are valuing these businesses like they are 20-year businesses. Mm. But they're not. Like, it's a moment in time. 43:45 And so the types of capital being injected into these types of businesses don't match with the actual longevity and duration of the company, and I, that, that's really where you're gonna see friction. 43:56 It'll work in the beginning until people see the results, and then the money, immediately it'll be like any other asset class. The money will dry up, right? There won't be as much capital in those types of brands. 44:06 Um, yeah. So that's what I think, and I already see in CPG, while I'm wearing it, we invested in a company called Girl Beer. [laughs] God bless. Wait, that's so cute. God- Can I have one of those? Gotta put it up. Yes. 44:16 I'll get you one. Okay. I'll do, I'll do you a trade. I have blank totes. Oh, love it. Well, yesterday I was wearing Girl Beer and then Girl Moss hat. [laughs] And I was like, "This is really me." 44:25 [laughs] Oh, I really wish you had gotten a pic of that. 100% girl. I will, I will get a pic of it after and send you a selfie. Um, somebody's selling Girl Moss hats on TikTok, and I'm like, "Well"- No way... 44:34 "I don't have that trademarked." I'm like, "It's okay for her to do it. If I see a man start to profit off it, we're gonna have an issue." [laughs] But then I was like- Really... 44:40 I d- I did a Google and, like, hers kind of comes up first. So I was like, "Should I change the name of mine on Shopify to The Original Girl Moss Hat? Except no substitutes." 44:49 [laughs] Um, but while you were talking a- about creators as, like, a 15-year-ago playbook and, like, we need something new, I was thinking about Technology Brothers 'cause, like, as we all admitted, we don't, we didn't read the full Information article, but I did see a screenshot where they were talking about, like, we could raise blah blah blah million dollars or, like, $50 million valuation and we know that would be a bad idea. 45:09 And I was like, it's good that you know that would be a bad idea, but I honestly don't know if you could do that. 45:15 People in tech like to hear themselves talk so much that, like, somebody like Balaji might YOLO that into your company, but I think most people would say, like, they don't really have... 45:27 Like, if somebody did that right now it would be like repeating the Clubhouse valuation mistake. Mm. Because their audience is very asymmetrical. Well, can I... 45:35 Wait, for the, for the listeners who may or may not know, let me, let me just describe quickly what it is. Yes, please. Then I'll hand it back to you. 45:39 So Technology Brothers, it's this podcast launched last October, um- I would say, like, live stream? Well, so, so it- Live cast? Yeah, it was a podcast last, launched last October. 45:48 Then in March they went full time, and now it's TBPN, which is Technology Business Programming Network. Um, they apparently, according to Listen Notes they're doing pretty good. 45:56 They've got a score of 39, which puts them in the top 2% of podcasts. What they do every Monday through Friday, they stream live on X, I'll say X, and YouTube. 46:05 [laughs] It's definitely more X than Twitter that they stream on. 46:08 Uh, streams live on X and YouTube 11:00 AM to 2:00 PM PST Monday through Friday, uh, and the hosts are Jon Coogan, he's, like, 36, co-founder of Soylent; and then Lucy, That Nicotine Company, also a longtime YouTuber, so he's been building this kind of muscle for, like, a decade. 46:22 He has 465,000 followers there. And then there's Jordi Hayes, I think he's, like, 29, co-founder and CEO of Capital, the fundraising and banking startup. Um, and they have, like, 50,000-some followers on Twitter. 46:34 They're, it's a total, like, clip industrial complex. But bringing it back to David, uh, when they went full time, they did this big rebrand with the agency Day Job, who, uh, have done- Mm-hmm... 46:45 David, Recess, Flyby Jing, all these brand identities that are so Zerp era, et cetera. 46:50 Um, and you know, it feels really premium in that y- the live stream, it's, like, the two of them, there's guests calling in every, you know, every 10 minutes, whatever, every hour. 46:59 Um- Looks like a cable network how it has the six bars. Yeah, there's two cameras. There's a ticker, yeah. Mm-hmm, and it's sponsored by Ramp. 47:04 This is one reason, too, I'm not, like, why I don't know if it would make sense for them to raise money. It's sponsored by Ramp. There's all these other, uh, sponsors, which I think- Mm-hmm... 47:11 I don't know if they're all, like, from the same fund. That's all hot startup I used to work with. But there you go. 47:15 But basically it's, like, a owned media brand for the tech space, for, like, the venture capital tech space where, like, these people who come on, um... 47:24 Last thing I'll say before I hand it back to you, Daisy, a friend of the pod, Adam Ryan, tweeted the other day, "The actual genius of the show is the re- recurring guests. 47:31 Why have your own show when you can go on TBPN frequently, air your opinion, and then go back to work? 47:36 They're both democratizing access to the best tech leaders and keeping those same people away from starting their own pods." Very true. So it's like this venture capital tech industry- Yeah... safe space owned media. 47:45 Um- Mm-hmm. Adam and I-... that's all the details... friend of Dart, investor in Dart. I respect him. I think that that's right. My, my point is not that they're not successful in any channel. It's-There's an asymmetry. 47:58 I think this is another thing that's different from 15 years ago. Like, you can't be big on all channels. You kind of have to pick one. So they have 410 followers on TikTok. [laughs] Not 410,000. Yeah. 410. 48:12 That was the point I was gonna make, yeah. But- But keep going... 48:15 obviously they're big on Twitter, and they're, what they've done is create the perception that this is an essential listen, and the people that feed into it are the people, Maya, you were referencing, and Francis before, that read Lenny's newsletter. 48:27 It's like how does this newsletter have a million followers? There are not a million people, like, even in the venture ecosystem in America. 48:37 And it's because, like, there's a way, way bigger group that are like, what I call, like... I don't wanna call them feeders because that's not very nice. They're kinda like barnacles, right? 48:45 They're barnacles on the whole system. They want to feel like they're participating. You know, the people that go on the show, they're on the show 'cause they wanna hear themselves talk. 48:54 But the other people are just, like, people who like to think of themselves as knowledgeable about this space in the same way, I would say, of a certain person that I've talked about when I fundraise for Dirt, which is the person who has The New Yorker tote and the print subscription and doesn't read it, but likes to think of themselves as a New Yorker reader. 49:16 The fact of the matter is in this day and age, like, the number of people that identify and want to think of themselves as a reader of The New Yorker 49:25 are far dwarfed by the number of people that want to think of themselves as being privy to, like, the innermost thoughts of, like, I don't know, Elon Musk or, like- Well, which, let's be clear. 49:39 What, what that is too is the... A simpler way to say that is the number of people who want to be rich. Yes. Right? Like it's all about- Mm... it's all about money. 49:47 And, like, uh, the attraction with the tech industry is about money and power and wanting to be close to what is the cen- like, maybe the center of money and power- Right... 49:54 in our culture The idea of being educated and Ame- i-d- educated and cultured used to be much more powerful in American society. 50:00 It wasn't huge, but if you looked at, like, for example, like, Legally Blonde is a movie that hit the mainstream about how cool it is to go to Harvard, and what's happening between the seats of power and Harvard right now, cage fight match. 50:16 [laughs] That is an American institution. That is an all-American institution. But the interesting thing about, like... I, I don't know. This is taking a step back a little bit to what you were saying, Maya. Like, okay, 50:28 Emily Sundberg has really well captured the people who kind of, like, have both aspiration. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 50:34 Like, her audience is, like, the barnacles that want to, to fluidly move between being the cultured person and the rich person at their own fucking convenience. Mm. No offense, but, like, that's, that- Yeah... 50:44 own it, and I think, like, that is The West Village Girl- It's, yeah... and she owns it. But if we're all talking about The West Village Girl, and we're all talking about Hamptons guys, that means that's done. Mm-hmm. 50:55 Right? Exactly. That is done. What's next? Mm-hmm. Do not invest in the Hamptons right now. The trend piece is already out. Like, you need to find the next thing. And- Right... 51:05 I think the argument for Clone being a little bit eclectic is, like, 51:09 somebody could see something on there that actually sparks a signal in their brain where they're, like, sitting in a pitch, and they remember that we said that some engineers at UPenn just accidentally found a material that will passively harvest water from air, and somebody's there pitching, like, some sort of, like, 51:28 I don't know, technology that's going to- Mm-hmm... 51:30 filter water, and they're realizing, oh, uh, by the time this, like, material is actually, like, approved and developed, these guys could use that material in filtering water for urban areas, and that could actually really line up with the trajectory of this company. 51:47 Okay, I'm in. I'll write a check. Or, like, even something that seems stupid and, like, um, just way too cultural. Like, okay, why is the Ralph Lauren American flag sweater so iconic, so sticky? 52:01 They just reissued their heritage collection. Like, this sweater will not go away. Right. That could spark somebody sitting in, like, a, a CPG pitch that's all about, like, the power of Americana. Yep, exactly. 52:13 Um, and, and those signals, they might not even be early enough. But- Right... I think, like, Maya, the reason we connect is you've really embraced the power of cultural alpha, cultural arbitrage. 52:24 It goes back to the Crocs thing. And unfortunately, like, more people don't think like you, and it's always gonna be harder for you because of that. But you're also- But it'll also be easier for me to make money... 52:36 way more likely to succeed. Mm-hmm. I mean- Yeah... yeah. And, like, look at Beehive, right? Mm-hmm. Like, we're, we're here because of Beehive. This is not an advertisement. Thank you, Tyler. [laughs] Thank you, Tyler. 52:47 This is not an advertisement. This is me simply saying, like, um, you know, Substack got a lot of attention. Beehive did not. 52:55 And, um, [laughs] I think one thing that I love about Tyler is, um, you know, he, he had really good num- he has really good numbers really quickly, and he would, um, copy the investors that didn't invest on his emails talking about- [laughs]... 53:11 how well the company is doing. Real hater. Real hater. You gotta be a, a real hater to be a real lover though, and I, and I really respect that. Um, so- Yeah... yeah, I don't know. 53:23 I- It- And Maya, you were one of the people who invested in Beehive. Yeah. I mean, and it's, like, it, it's the same story again and again. Mm-hmm. Like, I feel like I'm always just, 53:35 like, ringing the bell saying, like, "Hey, this is gonna be the next big thing" or- Mm... like, "Pay attention to these signals," and no one believes me. 53:41 They don't believe me, they don't believe me, until they do, and then it's like the switch completely turns. Yeah. And they're like, "How do we get involved with this thing?" It's the same thing with Beehive. 53:48 Like, Tyler had... His real vision, in my opinion, was him saying creators are actually going to be the next gen of small business owners. Mm. 53:56 Like, this is-20 years ago, if all of us wanted to be entrepreneurial, we would open up something physical. We'd be like, "I'm gonna make a scrunchie business." Like, you were building something next door. 54:05 It's a physical thing, and this is the next iteration of small business owners. It's like instead you're now monetizing your knowledge or your thoughts or your curation or your taste, whatever it may be. 54:14 And like, that is where... That was kind of his vision, saying, "Let's actually professionalize these people-" Mm... who are small business owners." How is that different though from, like- [laughs]... 54:23 the MrBeast playbook, which we're saying is, like, expired? Like, is the difference that the intention is to be a small business in, like, a self-contained ecosystem that doesn't try- Yeah... to scale? Okay. Yeah. Yeah. 54:32 I mean, like, he can scale, for sure. Like, he has the tools, but you'll see most of the people there, like, they're... 54:37 What he's offering is a platform to be a successful small business owner, to be a profitable small business owner. Mm-hmm. He's gonna try to find ways for you to monetize, try to find ways for you to grow, save on cost. 54:48 So like, instead of you hiring an, a, an agency, you can use their ad network. These are things that are... It's like the QuickBooks for the creator economy. I don't know if he'll want me to say it- [laughs]... 54:58 like, to describe it that way. But that's a, but that's a gigantic market. They have a monopoly. And like, that's, that's being forward-thinking on where the space is going. Um, I just- Shout out to QuickBooks. 55:09 I also use QuickBooks. Shout out to Ramp. Shout out [laughs] We do use Ramp. Shout out to Ramp. Okay, there you go. You guys have never given me any money, so, like, if you're listening, please bang my line. 55:17 Sponsor, sponsor, sponsor us. [laughs] One thing I saw really interesting, uh, uh- Yeah... going back to Ramp and TBPN, uh, so people going on there and then, like, trying to replicate what they do. 55:26 So there's this one, uh, large finance podcaster. Name names. Uh, 20VC, uh, Adam Stebbing? Yes. Well, 20... Sorry, um, Harry Stebbings. Harry Stebbings. 20VC was ahead of TBPN for what it's worth. Yes. Like- But-... 55:41 they, they set up the playbook... well, so he's been doing this podcast for, like, a decade. Yes. Yeah. Yes. But- And I respect him, yeah. No, totally, totally. But I, I thought this was fascinating. 55:49 Uh, I've never actually watched one of his episodes, but I'll see some clips on Twitter and stuff, and I follow him. But he went on TBPN, and then, like, three days later he tried to, he tried to do it. 55:58 And, like, I saw, I saw, like, the live stream thing on the upper right of my, of my, you know, Twitter- Oh, yes... uh, interface, and it's, like, the same thing. It's saying, like, when the guests are c- gonna come in. 56:07 And I'm like, that's... You know, respect to him for being like, "I'm gonna just try to do this-" [laughs] "... like, three days after I went on." Like, that's kind of insane. I... 56:14 But, you know, whatever, uh, respect for standing it up. That's the tech bro for you, yeah. It is. But then I didn't see it again- Key... since, 'cause the magic wasn't recaptured. 56:21 'Cause it's not just the format of, like, three-hour live stream with, like, big name guests coming in. I mean, it's, it's a lot of things. It's, it's the sponsorship by Ramp. It's the branding by Day Job. 56:30 It's, like, the two guys who are, like, wearing suits and handsome and have this good rapport, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. 56:35 Um, but I, yeah, I don't know, like, will they then spark, like, another wave of people trying to do these, like, live talk show formats, um- Right... in a more- I-... professionalized sense? I don't know if it will. 56:48 Yeah. Yeah, and I think that's something, um, you know, something that this makes me think about is how people are... It's kind of your point, Daisy, around how do you make yourself more legible. 56:58 I mean, everyone's grasping to figure out ways to make themselves more legible. But it's interesting, like, when there, when that in, one of the articles came out about them, I think it was a Business Insider piece. 57:06 I sent it to my, um, to my girlfriends group that doesn't work in tech, that just, like- Mm-hmm... hears me complain about me building my fund and has no clue. And I was like- So important to have civilian friends. 57:17 So important. Um, but sometimes I'm like, "You don't understand." I'm, like, crying. Yeah. 57:22 Like, I send them a selfie crying, like, "I'm tired of being a girl b- girl boss," and they're like, "Just come out to drinks with us." I'm like, "I can't." Yeah. So they don't get it sometimes. 57:30 But, um, I send them this article, and I was like, "Fuck, I think I need to start doing content." Like, even I was feeling the pressure- Mm-hmm... 57:36 'cause to Daisy's point, everyone has to figure out what their narrative is. Like, if I need capital ultimately to keep pursuing and funding new things, not new things, but how do I, you know, make myself le- legible? 57:47 But when I sent this article, it's so funny 'cause to me, like, in my world, people will cite this podcast. It's, like, the hottest new thing, and they're like, "We..." 57:55 And the headline was something really dramatic, like, the, like, the b- most popular new podcast, or, like, these guys are taking- Took over Silicon Valley... you know, take- took over Silicon Valley, took over tech. 58:04 B, with 410 TikTok followers? Exactly. Okay, well, okay. And my friends are like, "Who is that?" And my eye is, like, twitching. Nobody... Exactly. But this is the crazy thing- Nobody knows who's, who it is, right?... 58:11 the size of the audience doesn't matter. It's who's in the audience. And if all these people- Yeah, yeah... are talking about it- No, that's true... 58:16 then, like, that's, and that's why the big money- And, and I've used that argument for Dirt before, so it's actually- Exactly... very hypocritical for me to turn it on somebody else. [laughs] Yeah. 58:22 But I was- But, but, yeah... I was doing the thought experiment of, like, should we have a clone cast? Like, should we- Mm... 58:26 go live, like, a couple days a week or even more and talk through, like, the main headlines on the page? 58:31 Should I redesign the site so that there's, like, a, you can live stream through it and, you know, get rid of this early, like, simplicity, early internet simplicity that people are gravitating to? 58:42 But I couldn't answer the question of who the audience would be. Mm. Like, I think that I know. Um, but- Yeah, yeah... 58:49 it certainly wouldn't be the type of audience that can be small and still get written about in the information. Because at the end of the day, like, I don't wanna just let people come on and talk their book. 59:03 Um- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm... and the people who would come on would probably be journalists. Um, and, you know, that would probably get us- Who are often pretty illegible- [laughs]... in that sense. 59:14 Yeah, well, but they know what they're talking about. Like- Yeah... it's like, okay, we like this headline. Who wrote the story? Get them on. Yeah. I'd book this podcast. But then- Well, yeah... 59:22 would people just be like, "Oh, this is, like, Kara Sw- this is just millennial Kara Swisher." Like, God forbid, you know? 59:28 Like, I just couldn't answer the question, which doesn't mean I won't ever be ans- able to answer the question. But- Yeah... 59:34 I think I have, at least at this point, the wisdom to know that you can't copy somebody else's playbook. And also frankly, like, I don't wanna listen to myself talk. 59:45 Like, I already feel sometimes overexposed by the amount of talking I do- Mm-hmm... on this podcast. 59:54 And I'm flattered that there's people interested in what I have to say, but-I think the danger of being a founder is it's very lonely. You're very locked in your own head. 1:00:05 You swing wildly between feeling like you're the least important and most important person in the world. Mm-hmm. 1:00:11 And I don't think that the live streaming model for founders is helping with this issue of egocentrism- Yeah... that there is. I, I- Which is... Sorry, back to you. Go ahead, go ahead, go ahead. 1:00:22 No, no, I was just saying that I think that the risk with doing content if you're a founder, so they're not really positioning themselves as like we're full-time founders, right? So that, that's one thing. 1:00:31 I think they- Are they still running their companies, to be clear? [laughs] Like- I think they're like co-founders of their companies... who's, who's running the farm? Okay, well- Yeah... yeah, yeah. 1:00:37 God bless their co-founders. I don't, I don't think they are like the day-to-day operations. I wanna hear from their co-founders. Can we do just a live stream of them talking about how they've been keeping the lights on? 1:00:45 [laughs] Exactly. No, so I think, like, they'll be successful 'cause they've found their niche- Yes... and they're monetizing it, right? And like, to... 1:00:52 But I think from, from, like, as a consumer of these things, you should never get too overexcited. To Daisy's point- Mm... they have 400 TikTokers, like TikTok followers. Yeah. It's a niche, and so I think... 1:01:03 But it's easy for the group thinkers, you know, if we're putting all of those, the barnacles, to get very impressed by that and maybe assign or ascribe more value than there needs to be. 1:01:11 But I think that's something that's important is, like, actually just 1:01:15 thinking about how do you in today's world either find your niche so you have, you have your people that will, you know, help you, help give you resources, help put you on a pedestal, write about you, or, you know, how do you think about, um, I guess, like, how do I explain this? 1:01:32 How do you think about actually doing something that bridges multiple niches together- Mm... if, if that makes sense. And so I think everyone's focused on Silicon Valley. 1:01:43 Like, what I'm interested in is how do I get the voices of non-Silicon Valley mixed together with Silicon Valley? Like, is there even a way to do that? If I wait long enough, will... 1:01:52 You're already starting to see remnants of it. Will people come to the conclusion that to actually make money, you need to bridge all these different groups together? 1:01:58 If the world is flat, we actually all need to be working together. That's what I'm thinking a lot about. Like, how do you actually create those spaces? Well, in that sense- Yeah... like, when... 1:02:08 I mean, as venture capital gets more inflated, and I think, Daisy, you sent an article before this where it's like the, the, the capital's being consolidated in fewer and fewer funds, but I think it's still increasing, right? 1:02:20 And like- Mm-hmm... Lord knows how much I've been taxed by, you know, Uber fees, et cetera, et cetera. 1:02:25 Any given, you know, spend I've done that flows somehow, whether it's, you know, using a, something that uses Stripe, blah, blah, blah, so much money just goes back into this even as, um, some funds lose money. 1:02:37 I think net money flows in, right? It's like- Mm-hmm... there's, maybe there's less people making money, but fewer people making more money. So it's like- It's the power law, law of power. Yeah. 1:02:49 But so, but so the consequences of this is like you, like, Daisy, you said something like 10 minutes ago about, like, people have to... 1:02:55 You can't just, like, keep doing the same thing and expect, like, keep doing, like, the West Village girly thing or whatever. Mm-hmm. But the problem is you can. All right. 1:03:03 That is all for today, but this will be a two-part episode, so tune in next week to hear more from us and Maya. Thank you for listening. 1:03:16 [outro music]
