Transcript 0:00 [upbeat music] Welcome back to Tasteland. I'm your co-host, Francis Zehrer. And I'm Daisy Alioto. And who are we talking to today, Daisy? Today we're talking to Nika Semovic Fischer. 0:17 She's a writer, design strategist, and educator based in New York. She's currently a tenure-track assistant professor of communication design at Parsons School of Design, and she also is a journalist and a writer. 0:31 She's written for Dirt, and we worked on something really cool together that's going to be coming out next week, so we're excited to tell you about it. 0:40 I have no idea what it is, um, similar to the, to the listener, so I'm [laughs] excited to hear about it. Um- The ideal proxy audience... while we wait for her to get here, uh, I did just get back from Berlin. 0:52 My, my annual trip to Berlin last night. JFK was terrible, the worst airport in the tri-state area. I don't know if it's the worst in the tri-state, definitely the worst in the city. Mm. Um, but I had a great time. 1:07 Yeah, I'm sorry. I do not envy you. Was it hot in there? It was hot. It was hot, and we, we had to wait to get off because the police had to come on first before anyone could get off. I think a guy... 1:18 All they said was a guy was not following the rules. By the looks of him, I think he was vaping. Um, but then it was like- I mean, handle that in the tunnel, dude. Like- [laughs] I know. 1:26 I mean, it's like a seven-hour flight... where is he gonna go? Uh, what... I, actually, uh- No, I mean, like, if the police have to talk to him, talk to him in the tunnel- Oh, talk to him in the tunnel... 1:34 not just like- Yeah... where is he gonna go on the runway? But they had to, like, come on first to pull him o- But the other thing, I don't understand why he doesn't just Zin. Yeah, that's crazy. I don't know. 1:41 Um, but yeah, it w- anyways, it was hellish, but I had a good time in Berlin. Um, for our fragrance heads out there- [laughs]... we can have a little mini fragrance segment. 1:49 I did go to my favorite perfume store in Berlin, Bree. This is where you got the Tomato Note perfume last year. 1:55 Yes, and we, we s- [laughs] we smelled, like, everything they had, and I ended up getting something from the same brand, Min New York. Okay. Yeah. This is the place where they spray onto glass, and you smell the glass. 2:05 Onto glass, yes. Yeah. Did you see my Instagram story? Maybe, maybe you did, maybe you didn't. Like, weirdly, no. But yeah. But I- It's like-... don't watch a lot of Instagram stories. Oh, that's okay. 2:13 Well, it's like a- Not in, like, a ha ha way. I think I just, like... I don't know. Anyways, it's like these, these, these glass rods that they... I think there's like... He probably sprays it into... 2:24 Like, they go into these metal canisters. He probably sprays it in there, and there's, like, some kind of, like, absorbent thing at the end of it- Mm-hmm... that leaves the smell in it. 2:32 Anyways, I got, uh, Dune Road, [smacks lips] um, which is a- That sounds epic... it's, it's epic. It's a marine scent. I'll read you the copy- Yes... from their website very quickly. 2:44 Hit me with the, hit me with the notes. Summer walks, crisp ocean breeze, foamy sand, whispers of herbs, wildflowers, and seagrass from a distance. Uh, top: absinthe, cardamom, and ozone. 2:56 Heart: marine, salt, seagrass, seaweed, and driftwood. Base... Now, I don't know how to pronounce this word. Vetiver? Vetiver? Oh, vetiver, yeah. Vetiver, okay. Cedarwood and musk. 3:08 Um, when you first spray it on, it's really like a, like a cucumber or like a melon. Mm, mm, mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It's really nice. That sounds great. When you said Dune, I was thinking the franchise- [laughs]... 3:19 but this is way more up my alley. Mm. I will say- That top note's spice... I've been sort of, like... [laughs] I've been sort of sensitive to ozone scents- Huh... recently, but hopefully- Well, I don't even... 3:30 Myself, I don't even really know what that means. Um, ozone is, like, what you smell on concrete after it rains. Oh, I do like that. It's like... Yeah. There was one, there was one scent called Tears on Asphalt. 3:43 It was really bitter. I didn't really like it. I think the problem is that, like, to get an ozone scent, it's very synthetic. Mm. 3:49 And I think the more synthetic a scent is, the more likely, for me at least, that I'm, like, sensitive to it. Yeah. But- No sul- You like no sulfites in your- I guess, I don't know... natural scents. I don't know. 4:01 Well, I am driving back up to Maine today, [laughs] speaking of- Oh... dunes, yeah. Speaking of, uh, of, [laughs] of marine scents. 4:08 My friend Caroline from college, she lives in Chicago, and she messaged me a few months ago and was like, "Hey, I have a conference at Bowdoin. I'm flying into New York." Mm. "I would love to see you in New York." 4:18 And I was like, "Well, I'll do you one better." I'll drive you up. "I will drive you up." Oh, there you go. Um, [smacks lips] so I'm picking her up in New Paltz and then driving her... 4:27 She, she's gonna stay with me tonight- Mm... and then I'm gonna bring her to campus for her conference. What's her name? Wait, was it Caroline or Katherine? Caroline [laughs] with a K. 4:33 Caroline from college sounds like some, like, indie band, like Bandcamp album, uh, from, like, 2011. I know, and, like, we've both, like... I haven't seen her in a while. 4:44 We've both, like, had a ton of changes in our lives. She got married. Like, she's also not in our group chat because she has an Android, and so, like- [exhales sharply]... Caroline's always, like... 4:54 What Caroline's doing is, like, always, like, sort of a mystery. It's kind of chic. It's very chic, and, like, I get to have, like, the full car download, so I'm really looking forward to it. Mm-hmm. 5:04 A li- [laughs] Get to have a live podcast. It's also gonna be, like, less hot in, um- Thank God... Park Slope, so I'm excited about that. I- it's fucking brutal rolling into- Yeah... New York. 5:15 Um, anyways, Nika- Did you vote for mayor? I did vote for mayor, uh, early... Actually, yeah, I, I voted, uh, like, a week ago, right before I left. Yeah. 5:24 I went to do early voting, but I had to do an affidavit because I had requested a mail-in ballot, like, two-plus weeks before. Mm. It never came, and I checked just today. 5:33 Today is Tuesday, the final day of voting, and it still never came, so like- Wow. Yeah. Uh, anyways, let's let Nika in and chat with her. [upbeat music] I can't vote in New York, to be clear. Yeah. 5:50 I live in Westchester, so- Mm. Uh, but- But you are gonna do some voting in Prague... 5:54 oh, yeah, my old classmate, Zohran Mamdani, um, is, uh, maybe gonna win it all, so-I do feel very invested in the outcome- Yeah, we'll see it... for multiple reasons. 6:05 It does seem like no matter what happens, it seems like him and Cuomo are both gonna run anyways, just on whatever other lines. Yes, but I do think the outcome of today will determine how- We'll know... 6:17 strong of a position that is. Yeah. Yeah. It'll be interesting to see too, just 'cause their campaigns are so different. Like, Andrew Cuomo just doesn't really have one in a lot of ways. 6:27 Like, he's running on his name and his familiarity, and I think, um, Zoran's really, um, killing it with media, and- Mm-hmm... um, just having, you know, even like walking across New York City- That was insane... 6:38 becoming v- that was insane, right? Uh, so he's much more visible and trying, so I think it's, like, very opposite approaches. Mm-hmm. Curious to see what happens. 6:45 I will say, I mean, I, I checked my mail today for after getting... 6:49 after being gone for a week, and there was like fi- like there was a couple, like, local Ridgewood campaign mailers, but then there was like six, five or six just anti-Zoran ones with the thing, like, paid for by, what are his, by the top three donors it lists. 7:06 By DoorDash. [laughs] Greenberg, DoorDash, and Bill Ackman. [laughs] Mm-hmm. I mean, uh, it's interesting. I, also from a design perspective, the campaign's choices I think are very cool. And- Mm... 7:19 um, Sean Monahan, who we should have on the pod at some point- Yeah... writes a newsletter called 8 Ball. 7:24 Um, he wrote one about yellow fonts and yellow fonts being everywhere, and this was an example, and sort of like, okay, is this like the new brat green? The, this yellow- Mm... gold font. 7:34 I guess it's almost like marigold colored, um, that has already- It is... become so recognizable. And also, like, using- It's kind of Mets coded too. Yeah. 7:44 And the design conventions of, like, WhatsApp stickers, playing around with those. I fi- I thought that's really interesting. And yesterday I saw in, um, Frances, you know her better than me, but Rachel Carton- Mm... 7:55 in her newsletter was talking about the, the production studio that works with a lot of these progressive candidates on their videos. Mm. Like, the one, like, uh, the, the... 8:05 Yeah, like the one of walking down the city overnight- Yeah... and- What is it called, like, Butter something? What's it, what are they called? Mm. It's Anthony Demieri- Yes... 8:12 is one of the gentlemen who's involved with it, and I think he also does those, um, like, subway takes. Have you seen those videos? He does. There's with Kareem. Yeah, yeah. Works with- Yeah... works with Ari, uh, Daisy. 8:22 I, we met him at, uh, at the Air Series B party. He was there. Ari is our next guest. Mm-hmm. The, uh, the Tasteland extended universe [laughs] is curling back on itself. Mm-hmm. Do you know him, Nika? Yeah, yeah. 8:36 I've met Anthony once. 8:37 Um, but I, I read that interview too, and I thought it was interesting how he was saying how, um, before people come in with, like, a script, and he really encourages them not to use it and to improvise. 8:48 I think, I don't know, I think there's something about that that plays out in design at large. Mm. Like, things sort of feeling natural versus forced or, um, I don't know. Yeah. It's interesting thinking about... 8:58 Go ahead. Yeah. Well, like, the big thing that stood out to me too was one of the partners says, like, 9:06 it's better to have people around the candidate who are literate in memes and sort of microtrends rather than for the candidate to try to participate in them, because that's cringe. 9:15 And it's like, that's so true, and you can really see the difference in Zoran's campaign with that. At the same time, like, you have, like, people like JD Vance becoming so millennial coded- Mm... 9:27 because he constantly tries to participate himself, and people really rejecting that. Um- Melted Solids, by the way, real quick. That's the name of the, of the group. Butter- Melted Solids... 9:37 is a melted solid, so I really can see where that came from. Where that came from. [laughs] Like, it's a really interesting... 9:44 JD rants this morning being like, "Do you think any VPs had to deal with, like- That was insane... what I deal with? Like, emoji, like, LOL cow?" And it's like, well, yes, we do, 'cause Dick Cheney was president, so. 9:56 [laughs] Or the, uh, the other thing, the other thing- We all saw vice... whereas, like, the difference this time is that our other presidents were dumb, and this one isn't. That's... 10:05 I'm still not convinced that's real, but- I didn't watch the clip to be honest. Um- I didn't. I didn't watch it... what is real, I spent a really long time last night. 10:13 So we, like, as, as you know, like Nika, we have this new site Clone, and we, we sort of messed up. Like, we, we put this Forbes article up that was, like, not well-sourced, and it was like, Forbes used to be reliable. 10:26 Mm. Now they do a lot of SEO bait, and it was about a- Mm... a leaked password hack. And somebody emailed us and was like, "Hey, this doesn't seem legit." 10:34 And I sort of at the time was like, "I should check this," and then I got busy with something else. And so it was actually, like, a, it was a learning le- it was a learning lesson. It was a- [laughs]... 10:44 a good moment for us to be like, "Hey, guys, like, we should, like, be better about this. Um, to the extent that we have an editorial process, we shouldn't be aggregating stuff that's, like, bait." 10:54 [lips smack] But when I saw last night that there was, like, this Norwegian article, um, about a guy who got turned away at the border 'cause they searched his phone and he had, like, a chubby JD Vance meme on there, I was like, I spent, like, a really long time trying to make sure it was legit, because the actual- Mm... 11:09 Norwegian article was, like, paywalled. So I was like- Mm-hmm... is this the Norwegian equivalent of The Onion? 11:14 And it's, it took, like, kind of a long time for me to figure it out, but I was like, "I'm not falling for this again." That's the value you get at Clone- It d-... like The Onion. [laughs] Yeah. 11:21 I mean, like, I mean, I come out of traditional news, so if there's a failure in the process, like, I blame myself, because Boys Club, they're, they have, like, great backgrounds for what we're doing, but they don't come out of a traditional newsroom. 11:33 Mm. And I was like, "Yes, it is. It does seem to be legit." If I find out today it's not, then I will apologize publicly. But, um, yeah, I don't know where I was going with this other than to say, like, that's crazy. 11:46 [laughs] Twitter, that Twitter is real life. Well, I think it also has to do with, like, the design of things and how, um, just everything is hard to discern sometimes. 11:55 And I think, um, maybe it's kind of how we were talking about believability with, um, the campaigns, and I was thinking about Kamala's too. Like, she definitely picked up that brat-... 12:06 you know, motif from a pop star that was somebody else's design language. And so I'm wondering where it fits into this, like in terms of you were saying that JD Vance sort of is trying to speak to this, 12:18 um, audience, but kind of signing on and Zoran has people doing it for him. So I don't know where that fits into the story. Yeah. You know? 12:25 And it's not that it doesn't just age you generationally, but it also sort of ages you in the news cycle. Yeah. And I think, like, good communication and design should be timeless. 12:37 And even though, like, the internet moves at the speed of the internet, obviously, like, people are learning that actually there's something about participation in these micro trends that really degrades your message. 12:48 Mm-hmm. It's like a stand-in for having the actual message. Like, I'm reminded of some TikTok that I saw getting, like, retweeted a lot on Twitter last week of these two girls- A TikTok on Twitter? 12:59 Whoever heard of such a thing? A TikTok on Twitter. [laughs] But it was of these two girls, uh, like doing... The audio track was, um, Zoran at the debate when he was saying like, "Because I am not you, Mr. 13:10 Cuomo," and you know- Oh, my God... spelling out his name and stuff. 13:12 Um, and I just saw like a few different retweets making the point, like when you have a message that people want to be associated with, you get all this free media, when you sort of become the meme- Mm-hmm... 13:23 but not in like a derisive way or like a, a, a dilutive way, but like more of j- just actual good earned media, um, because it's cool and because people wanna be associated. And then they had... 13:35 They were wearing the hats, the blue hats with the orange writing and such. Mm-hmm. Okay, Nika- I saw... true or false, you recently won one of, uh, a piece of jewelry from Ota- Otessa Moshfeg's, uh- Oh, yeah... auction. 13:49 [laughs] Uh-huh. [laughs] I did. Are you wearing it right now? What's the coverage of this auction? [laughs] The auction was really cool. I'm not wearing it right now. I've worn it on my... 13:58 I wore it on my birthday, which is the day after I obtained this piece of jewelry. [laughs] Mm-hmm. And I think maybe I wore it once after that. Um, but no, it was hosted by Substack, and it was at Golden Unicorn. 14:10 Um, have you been there? It's like a Chinese restaurant. I have, yeah. Wasn't it, um, Eddie Huang, he was part of this auction too? Yeah, he was. Yeah. It was... 14:18 You know, I had never really thought that I'd wanna go to an auction, [laughs] but my friend invited me, and it was the day before my birthday, and I kind of like to not make any plans for my birthday, so I was like, "This is perfect." 14:28 [laughs] That's true. It was. And, um, they had, like, a real auctioneer, like from Christie's. Um, he was very enthusiastic. And then they were, like, selling off all these different things. 14:40 Like, the jewelry was actually the most practical and, like, the least expensive thing. Mm-hmm. So I feel lucky about that win. [laughs] But, like, um, they were selling, like, a used toothbrush that went for like $200. 14:50 Like- Really? That's so crazy. [laughs] You could frame that, I guess. That's something to Sydney Sweeney's bathwater. You could definitely frame it. God. Yeah, it's the same vibe. 14:58 Or, like, unlicensed therapy with Eddie Huang- [laughs]... went up for, like, I think 1,000 or something. It was insane. Well, that's worth it. Mm-hmm. Yeah. [laughs] I think he could really fix my life. 15:06 He can give you some hard truths. [laughs] Um, I... Well, okay, speaking of hard truths, that was actually a good transition. I'm proud of this one. Um- [laughs] 15:16 You have a new piece in a magazine called Hardpack that I'd never actually heard of before, and you're tying, like, a lot of ideas from the zeitgeist together. Can you sort of explain this piece or the genesis of it? 15:30 Yeah, sure. So Hardpack is a magazine about skiing. Mm-hmm. Um, but it's not really about skiing, it's about ski and things that are adjacent to it. Okay. And- So strong. Strong is not actually about tennis. 15:43 [laughs] Yeah, you're right. And I don't know if you had, um... Do you remember Wax magazine by any chance? Oh, yeah. It, it was, like, 10 years ago. 15:52 But it was, um, it was kind of a similar vibe, where it was about s- um, surfing- Mm-hmm... but it was really about, like, art surfing and people in big cities that like to surf. 16:01 But it was also very beautifully produced. Um, but anyway, so Hardpack is similar in that vein, where it's, like, about one thing, but it's kind of about these, like, tangential interests. 16:12 And I wrote a piece called Melting Legacies, and it's about the overlooked ties between a ski lodge, independent publishing, and the art of book design. [laughs] But, um, I don't know. So it was, um... 16:24 Zach Seeley is really incredible, and he's the editor. He invited me to write about this, and he was interested in, um, Alvin Lustig, um, who was, like, this, like, famous mid-century, like, book designer. 16:37 And he was interested in, like, the overlaps between, like, mid-century book design and skiing because, I learned this when I was doing this, but skiing is also sort of like a, a mid-century hobby. 16:47 It was, you know, kind of used in wartime before, but not really. It's, like, a leisurely hobby in the- It wasn't? Wait. I, I had no idea. [laughs] It wasn't really much of a hobby. 16:55 It was just, like, a way of getting around- Yeah... for troops? [laughs] Yeah, exactly. I, I don't wanna divert too much, but I- [laughs]... heard, like, a crazy, um... 17:04 This is, like, a family friend's family story about- So it's hearsay, huh? It's hear- Yeah. This is, like... I, I'm two degrees removed. [laughs] But I, I always, I always, like, 17:15 kept it with me in case I end up in this exact situation. Um, but somebody in the family was Norwegian. Mm-hmm. They were part of the resistance- Hmm... during World War II. They're getting chased on, like... 17:30 chased through the woods by a Nazi soldier. Both of them are on skis. What's it called when you're flat skiing? It's s- Cross-country skiing. Cross-country, yeah. 17:38 [laughs] Cross-country skiing through the woods, and he's, like, ahead, but he's like, "I don't know how long I can stay ahead." 17:45 So what he does is he gets ahead enough that he's out of this Nazi soldier's visibility, turns around, drops, waits for the Nazi to come, shoots. Scores. S- scores. Scores. [laughs] Yeah. 18:00 So it's like, I was like, oh yeah, like that's, like, that is what you should do. Like, if you, if you're- Mm-hmm... outrunning somebody and you don't know if you can outrun them, just, like- Hmm... 18:09 pull a reverse Yahtzee.Anyway, um- Reverse Yahtzee. [laughs] So but I could understand... 18:13 Here's the thing, I could understand why somebody in that scenario or friends with people in that scenario might not like, after the war be like, "You know what would be so relaxing?" 18:22 [laughs] "You know what would be so relaxing, you guys?" Okay, wait. But back to the- Um, let's go to the mountains. [laughs] Back to the original. [laughs] Where were we? Oh, no, it's true. 18:35 It's kind of interesting to think about the origins of, of things, and sometimes things are more recent than you had anticipated. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, but that's a cool family lore moment. Myself, I think I can ski. 18:44 Somebody's gonna write in and be like, "Daisy, that's from a Chee- Cheever story." And I'm gonna be, "Shut up." [laughs] This wa- it was told to me. Um, so okay, so what tell... 18:55 Okay, what's the connection th- to the- Yes... publishing through one particular lodge? Yeah. Yeah, so it's through, um, Atlas, uh, Alta Ski Resort- Mm... 19:04 um, which is in Utah, and it's, like, currently the biggest, um, you know, place that you can go skiing. And, um, it was f- funded by, uh, James Laughlin, who's, like, uh, who started New Directions, um, 19:20 it's just, like, a famous publishing house. It's still around. And, um, he really funded this, like, avant-garde publishing practice through, um, like, the ski resort. 19:30 And so it was, like, kind of embedded together that he had this, like, adjacent, you know, passion in skiing, but then also was, like, really interested in kind of bringing together this, like, contemporary form of prose that was different at the time. 19:45 Um, and then he met all these friends who were kind of going through similar transitions. Like, um, he would bring in, like, uh, Nabokov, Vladimir Nabokov to the ski resort, who also had a side hobby. 19:56 He was, like, really into moths. Um, [laughs] yeah, like, that, that was, like, his adjacent interest, and he came to this ski resort in search of a very specific moth. 20:06 And during this time there, he, like, decided he was going to abandon his previous name and go by Nabokov, and that's, like, you know, where, you know, it became... He became more famous for it. 20:15 And then, um, you know, the New Directions, uh, publishing, it was, um... it started off as this kind of experimental thing. 20:23 But then when Alvin Lustig, who also became friends, um, with James Laughlin, they started working together. 20:30 He turned the books into these, like, really memorable mid-century kind of graphic things that really kind of worked as packaging. 20:39 And, um, then, you know, they started taking the books from the backs of bookstores and putting them up front, and they started turning over, and they just were much more commercially successful. 20:47 And I think he's sort of credited as being this amazing designer for this achievement, but actually, I think it's sort of the wrong way of framing it, because it kind of puts, uh, the impetus on, like, a hero, um, for solving this. 21:01 And, and rather, you know, his wife was helping him, too, and I think it's more about how design can be used to distribute information, um, and makes it more accessible to people rather than being, you know, a work of art per se that's very honest. 21:14 Um, but that being said, the ski resort was also kind of going through the same change. And so, like I said, you know, when, um, James Laughlin got it, it was... there was only... 21:23 I don't, I don't think there were any, um, like, ski lifts or anything like that. And then over time it became more popular. People kept coming. There were lots of tourists, and it became, like, less wild. 21:32 So I guess in short, like, my story is about, um, how things get remembered and, you know, what would happen if you were remembered for something that you were actually passionate about quietly rather than, you know, the thing that becomes more successful, and if one is more honest than the other. 21:47 Yeah. Mm. Right. Then we would think of Nabokov as somebody who was famous for moths. [laughs] Yeah. [laughs] Isn't that funny? It's really funny. [laughs] It's fascinating. I, I need to read this full piece now. 21:58 Um- [laughs]... it definitely, like, sparked my interest when I saw the description. It was. It was, yeah. I was like, "How's she gonna pull her, this off? How's she gonna weave all three-" [laughs] "... 22:06 of these things together?" But of course, you did. Um, and it was... I was thinking about the first piece 22:14 that you told me about that you'd worked on, um, when we first were getting to know each other, which is, um, a piece about the digitization of the Serbian Cyrillic alphabet during the Yugoslav Wars. 22:27 Um, it's always stayed with me, because I just didn't know anything about this topic, and I remember... I think I remember your post about 22:38 buying the necklace on your, on your birthday or, like, the day before your birthday, because you and I are the, like, the exact same age. Like, I was also- Right... born in 1991, but you were born in Belgrade. 22:49 It was all the way across the world. Um, so I'm curious, like, A, just how this story came together, 'cause it continues to feel very relevant to cultures in conflict and potentially lo- losing pieces of their history 23:07 to the internet, but also having the opportunity to preserve on the internet at the same time. Um, and also, like, your own personal history and, like, your relationship with the language. Sure. 23:22 Uh, yeah, it's a really interesting question, and thanks for remembering that and, and reading it. Um, so you're right, yeah, I was born in 1991, and I was born in Belgrade, and at that time it was still Yugoslavia. 23:34 And that particular year was interesting, because I think two big things were happening. You know, like, um, the country was star- in, in a war, so it's falling apart. 23:43 Um, the Soviet Union collapsed recently, and also the internet was starting to take, uh, take form and become more widespread. And, um, I think growing up, I always spoke Serbian at home. 23:55 And I, I grew up in California, by the way. So my family moved away from Yugoslavia in, uh, like 1992. 24:03 And so I really grew up in California, and so I was always hearing about Yugoslavia, and I had this culture of Serbian at home. Um, and I was always translating one language from to the next. And, um, and it... 24:16 and so we kind of preserved the culture within our household. But-I was very much like American and, and, you know, grew up in, in the suburbs in California and then St. Louis, and California again. And I, um, 24:31 I th- I wrote this piece when I was in grad school actually, and I was looking at how, um, type has data embedded into it, and I was really interested in looking at old type files that you can't access anymore, and I was curious if you could load them up or what they looked like. 24:48 And that was mildly interesting. [laughs] Like, actually it's just not... It's just like these old like file formats that aren't super useful. 24:55 But it made me think about type in general and letter forms that I'm familiar with, um, and w- where... if there's like a presence about them online at all. 25:05 And so Serbia is pretty interesting because it is always been bi-scriptal, so they use both like the Latin text and then also the Serbian Cyrillic alphabet, which is not the Russian Cyrillic alphabet, it's like slightly different. 25:18 [laughs] Um, and so I was curious, you know, what... Like, were people still using the Cyrillic alphabet? Why you don't see it online anymore? 25:27 And a lot of it has to do with just like the, what I was saying earlier, like the time that this country was falling apart, you know, the West was really pushing forward the internet, and so a lot of standards, um, about online communication are, are built in English primarily or optimized for the English language. 25:45 And so to use alphabets in Serbia it was, um, a lot of hacking. Um, 25:52 I interviewed this woman, Olivera Srdanovic, and she was responsible for creating YuTimes, which was like this edit of Times New Roman [laughs] to have like some of the Serbian characters that you could use. 26:05 And then when I interviewed her she told me she was really embarrassed about this actually because, um, it was like adopting a Serbian hat almost on or a style onto like somebody else's Western typeface. 26:18 And so it really inspired her to create all of her own typefaces that were like homegrown specifically for the Serbian alphabet that had both the Cyrillic and the Latin text. 26:28 And, um, also like during that time in the early, or in the '90s and so forth, you had to use special character encoding to get these letters to appear. 26:39 And so it was really a big hack because like people were distributing like YuTimes on like USB drives or whatever, and then if you didn't have it you would have like brackets in place of the correct letters. 26:50 So the language just really wasn't supported on the internet. Hmm. 26:53 And yeah, I mean, like, you know, I would go back to Serbia when I was growing up, and I think even when I was like a teenager we had, you know, internet all the time at home. 27:03 I think at that point it was like using MySpace, but then you'd go there and you still had to like put the phone, you know, connect the phone to the computer to get it to work at my grandma's house or you'd go to internet cafes. 27:12 So yeah, I think to answer your question, it's more a... It was very much personal and then sort of thinking about how my own history mirrors this, um, this difference. 27:22 It's falling apart of a country and then also like kind of the layers of bias that prevent, you know, a national script being on the same level and continues to be sort of isolated because of, um, those changes. 27:34 I think you and I both share a really big interest in this sort of tiny web, and you had one project that you had created like almost 10 years ago that you brought back recently called Wildflowers.garden. 27:53 Yeah. Um, and you described it as, "There are many similarities between gardens and websites. They both evolve over time, and you can design them how you would like. 28:04 Sometimes something unexpected happens, and the garden returns a different result than what you expected. Perhaps they can... Perhaps they both can encourage you to slow down and appreciate the change of the seasons." 28:16 Um, I spent some time on the website yesterday, but I was wondering if you could explain what it is and what the inputs it, are and how you created it, 'cause I know some of it started off as drawings from your sketchbook. 28:31 Yeah. Uh, thanks for, for looking at that. 28:34 It is interesting how you can make something and put it online and then it sort of takes on a different life and you don't know always how it's going to react or how other people are gonna interact with it and how it starts to change meaning. 28:48 But yeah, it's a project I made like winter break or something in, I don't know, like 2015, 2016. And I was just interested in experimenting with the web browser as a medium and, you know, I was... 29:01 I think I was working at Kate Spade at the time as an in-house graphic designer. I was working in ad agencies. So I was doing a lot of work for other people and not so much for myself. 29:11 And I, um, have always liked to draw, and at the time I was thinking about if there's a way of bringing in that warmth, um, that happens when you're, you're just like sketching and you have this like inherent brush stroke, if you will. 29:24 And if it's possible to put that online and maintain a little bit of it. 'Cause I think oftentimes, especially at that time, it was like things are very geometric and flat online. Hmm. 29:34 So, um, I scanned, um, my illustrations and... And I love scanners by the way. We used them for this Invisible Nightlife for the drawings on that too. 29:43 [laughs] But anyway, um, and I've had my scanner since like 2012, 2011, so it's, it's, you know, strong piece of hardware. 29:51 [laughs] But, um, anyway, so I scanned them and then I digitized them in Illustrator and I put all of the different flowers on different layers. 30:02 And then, um, my business partner helped me code it at the time and we put it online and we... I've always been interested in like very small interactions and so parallax scrolling is like- Mm-hmm... 30:15 in video games when someone looks like they're walking but it's like actually just the background moving or something. Mm-hmm. It's like that type of effect. 30:21 And so that's exactly what's happening on this when you curs- or you move your cursor, um, all the different layers shift.And they're all paired with little quotes about gardening that could be interpreted as advice for, for life. 30:36 And, and you know, I put it up and I forgot about it, to be honest. I just, you know, did it. But then over time I kept seeing it circulated, like it's been shared a bunch on Arena. 30:45 Once someone from Australia reached out to me and they're like, "I'm visiting New York and I love this project. Can I meet you?" And that was very special. Wow. We got matcha. 30:53 [laughs] And, um, yeah, and like then, then just, you know, 10... Like, I guess it's been 10 years since then, I got an email, um, from this publishing house in Austria, 31:05 and they said they were working on this book for Zora Klipp, who is a German, um, uh, German c- uh, cook. And she wanted to use these illustrations on this, like, book that they're producing. That's so cool. And so cool. 31:18 And like it just... And all this, um, happened during Venus retrograde, which I, I tend to care about. [laughs] Mm. 31:23 So it really was, like, this creative project from the past coming back and, you know, it was really surprised by it. 31:29 And so then I ended up re-releasing it as, like, a limited edition, uh, collection on a USB on Metalabel. Um, but yeah, very unexpected how things can kind of gain traction without your control really. 31:42 It, it's interesting 'cause, like, at the beginning of this when you said how, like, a website is like a garden, I was thinking about how, uh, like at first it didn't make sense to me because a website, maybe you put it up and, like, things start to degrade. 31:54 Maybe it was built in the era of Flash and then, you know- Mm-hmm... Flash disappears and, and things start to degrade. 31:59 But then I'm thinking of the building next to me, they've been doing a gut renovation since like October. Who, who knows when it'll be done. Uh, but they totally razed the garden. Like, they just destroyed it. 32:09 They dug everything up. It was so beautiful. There was like a grid of cement. There was a magnolia tree that was like 20 feet tall that they cut down for no reason. 32:17 Um, and they like, you know, dug into all the garden and stuff. Um, and then it was just a patch of dirt. And this summer it just came back, right? 32:25 And it's like, it's so lush now and there's all these bits of seeds that had been like buried down below and there's sunflowers, ferns, just so much stuff, right? 32:33 Like, it's like, it's so persistent that they couldn't really destroy it. And to me that's... that was like the opposite of a website. 32:40 But I guess the way then at the end, like, the way I see that a website is like a garden is more like it's not that like the website itself like propagates and changes in this like lush replicative way, but more like the way like the, the people interacting with it are in, in like in this garden that was, you know, they tried to destroy and it's just come back. 33:01 It's more like the interactions people have with it are kind of the blooms in it maybe. Yeah. That is really beautiful. Um, and it's an interesting way of thinking about it. 33:12 And that garden seems very persevering [laughs] in your example. But you know, I think about, um, when people die and what happens to their web pages. Mm. 33:21 Um, unfortunately I had a mentor pass away, and he sort of kept his website up as sort of like a final piece of authorship, I'd say. And, you know, he was super careful. 33:32 He removed his social media presence on Instagram, like LinkedIn, but he kept this one web page. 33:38 And then it just, you know, I guess after the, the domain expired or whatever, it went down and then there's like a Russian casino now in its place. Oh, wow. And it's so sad. 33:49 Um, but if you go to Wayback Machine you can still see these traces of, of him and if... 33:54 It was registered under his name, so I imagine if somebody else has that name and they buy that domain, you know, they'd see that history. But, um, yeah. This, this reminds me too, I, I'm not on Facebook. 34:05 I think I like haven't really logged onto Facebook regularly since like 2018 or something. But I remember- Mm... in college I was so fascinated with how people would like memorialize other people on Facebook. 34:18 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And like the way that they would continue posting on their walls every birthday or like there would be these, these pages created, these like, I don't... You know, I, I guess you just call it a page. 34:28 Um, I forget the Facebook nomenclature, for this person and how people would like leave memories there. And like, uh, I, I don't know. I, I'm sure that's still a thing there. And I guess I see it too like on Instagram. 34:40 It is. I see it. My mom like somewhat unceremoniously gave me my, um, like grandmother, my family friend, Cheryl, we call her my grandmother, whose main house I, I live in part-time. Mm-hmm. Like she 34:53 very unceremoniously, like before shutting down her phone plan, was like... And also by the way, like if you're somebody who has to handle somebody's estate, there are so many different things that you don't think about. 35:02 But she was like, "Okay, here's her phone. Like you need to go into her Facebook and you need to basically like..." I don't know if she told me like, like, "You have to do it this way." Mm. But basically like... 35:13 I can't remember if I posted as her or wrote a status on her wall basically saying like, "She's passed away. This is when the memorial is." Yeah. 35:20 But then I was the one who like requested to take it over and turn it into a memorial page. Which is a thing you can do formally. They have a formal thing for that now. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. There's a process for it. Um, 35:34 but actually... Oh, my God. I think I blocked this out because it was really, you know, it was emotional. So you can do it, but you have to have their death notice. Wow. So I 35:48 either wrote on her wall or wrote something as her, if I'm remembering correctly, and then my mom gave me her death notice. 35:55 You have to take a picture of it and upload it to prove that you are close enough to this person to take over the page. Um, and so that's, that must be how we did it, but I didn't... 36:07 Yeah, it took me a second to remember that 'cause I like completely blocked it out. 36:10 Um, 'cause it was emotional and then getting messages from people who knew her that like didn't know was emotional and, um, yeah, it's, it's... 36:21 I- There's been a lot of really great writing about the internet and grief- Mm-hmm... 36:27 and how things are preserved, but also how they can degrade and that can become part of-The grieving process, but I feel like there's always so much more to say. 36:37 Like, you- I never really get over it, and there's always new things that are, like- Always new platforms- Oh, that's horrible. Like-... that people are grieving on in different ways... 36:44 my friend found out her friend died from a PartyFull update. Oh my God. Um- That's awful. Yeah. I think she's... Actually, I think she's written about it a little bit. 36:54 So it was, it's Terry, and Terry, um, Terry was supposed to go to her friend's birthday party, and then for whatever reason, like, the friend who needed to announce it to everyone did it by, 37:05 like, writing in the PartyFull update, like, "The party's canceled because this person- Jesus... passed away." And it's like- Oh... I, I don't know that that's a thing that should ever happen. Mm. Mm. 37:18 Um, you know, like, w- when my friend Anthony died, um, my friend Becca, like, I remember this 'cause it was, like, such a really, like, kind and decent thing to do, texted me and was like, "Have you been online today?" 37:33 basically, and I'm like, "No." Calls me and tells me over the phone. And there were people who knew Anthony that I also knew who I assumed already knew that ended up finding out 37:46 from my posts, which I didn't do until I thought enough time had passed that, like, everyone must know. Mm-hmm. And so it's weird to be at, on any side of that. 38:00 Um, and then our old boss didn't find out until I wrote about it in Dirt after the funeral. Um, and so he was like, "Wait, what?" And so then I end up mailing him 38:13 the, one of the programs from the funeral 'cause I had taken extra. But you can see, like, it feels like there's a hierarchy here, right? 38:22 Like, being able to tell somebody over the phone, being able to give somebody a physical program from the funeral feels very different- Mm-hmm... 38:32 and more, I feel like, decent and, like, real than finding out from, like, an Instagram Story or finding out from a tweet. 38:40 Um, but it doesn't really feel like we have a ton of control over that anymore, unless we decide to be, like, super intentional about it. Yeah, that is true. 38:49 There is sort of a, a hierarchy of, of weight in terms of how you would find out and where the appropriate place is to announce these things. 38:57 And it's interesting too, like, these big tech platforms, like, they want you to keep those profiles up endlessly. 39:03 Like, unless, you know, you delete it on your own or somebody takes it over and, you know, I didn't know that you had to confirm with a death receipt. 39:10 Like, that's also a weird way of bringing in something from the real world that's very, like, legal, but also emotional into this space. But that requires a lot of effort, you know? 39:20 And so if you don't do it, it's just like these profiles stay online, and they're collecting information, um, without really any type of interception. Yeah. Well, actually, I've been 39:32 thinking, percolating on a new braided essay, which is like, oh boy, she's at it again. [laughs] Um, so I, during, um, 39:43 during COVID, after I got laid off from the New York Review of Books, I was freelancing and applying for stuff. I had, like, way too much time on my hands, as did we all. And I think, like, [laughs] 39:55 I feel like most of us, like, don't really want to admit, like, what we were doing with that time or even remember. 40:00 But I remember because I became obsessed, and I mean obsessed, with this unsolved mystery about this woman, Jennifer Fugate, who was found in... 40:09 She was found dead, presumed suicide, in a locked, on-the-inside Oslo hotel room. And this was before, um, this case was on Netflix's Unsolved Mysteries, so there wasn't as much attention on it. 40:21 It was just, like, a lot of Reddit threads. Mm. And what fascinated me about this is, like, it's one of the rare cases where, like, 40:29 oftentimes, like, somebody is missing, and you have their identity, but you don't know where they are. 40:36 Where in this case, like, there was a body, and there was, like, what she put to check into the hotel, but what isn't known is her real identity. So you had everything about her except her identity, down to, I think they 40:52 have been able to sequence... Not sequence, sorry. They've been able to test her DNA to know where she's from, but for legal reasons can't go, like, upload it- You're saying to this day... to, like, a relative database. 41:05 Yeah. Mm-hmm. So I get obsessed with it, and I have Google Doc upon Google Doc of dossiers of every angle of this. 41:14 And I have spent so much time staring at photos of her body and her belongings, and I'm not usually a true crime person, but there was something about this that seemed, like, almost literary. 41:24 You're on your true crime journey. And, um, yeah, exactly. Where am I going with this? Um, I don't, [laughs] I don't know. [laughs] Is it maybe about how her trace is online, like, kind of you start to- Mm... 41:37 form an opinion about this person even though you don't know them, but there's enough information on? Yeah, I think it's something that you said about, like, the document, the legal documents, and, like- Yeah... 41:48 how much work it is. Um, oh, 'cause when you said that, I was thinking about people who die, like, kind of isolated or after all their friends and family are dead, and, like, nobody does, nobody's going to do that work. 42:00 And there's sort of, like, a category of person, like, in New York, a big city, or any big area that are sort of, like, just, like, unclaimed people, unclaimed estates. 42:11 Um, but a lot of times, like, the identity is known, and so this is kind of a reverse of the traditional unknown mystery. And, um, yeah, like, I became obsessed with it. 42:24 And so, I don't know, I've been thinking about it a lot in relation to, like, recognition. Like, what does it mean to be recognized or recognize somebody? Why did nobody recognize this woman? 42:34 And, like, how much information could you have about someone and still, like, misunderstand them?Yeah. That's... 42:42 I think that's really fascinating, and it reminds me also, this is sort of tangential, but you know, um, Luigi Mangione, like- Mm-hmm... his Goodreads became- Hmm... this, like, big topic of- Yeah... 42:54 information for people, and people sort of, like, drawing all these conclusions. Like, I think he read, um, something about the bullet method, you know, for journaling, and people were saying, "Oh, he took it literally." 43:04 [laughs] And like, I don't know. [laughs] It's... Which is inappropriate. [laughs] But, uh- It is what it is. But, but people get, like- [laughs] I think, um... 43:11 And then, you know, he has all these people, like, reaching out to him. 43:14 He became this, like, cult hero, but I think people were hungry to, like, find a piece of his, like, inner world and, and people can kind of project- Project... what they want based on the data that's floating around. 43:24 Well, that's- Yeah... what I so often do on this podcast- [laughs]... or, like, on my other podcast, researching people. 43:29 I've literally found people's Goodreads [laughs] to try to triangulate some sort of question I can ask them. Like, I- Guys, for the record, Nico's having a fridge cigarette during this podcast- [laughs]... 43:38 which is, like- I know [laughs]... what the internet has been calling Coca-Cola for some reason. [laughs] Um- No, but I think... Well, I mean, it's like- Yeah... I think about, like, the like, right? 43:46 Like, liking anything on social media, which is like... [sighs] I mean, now that likes aren't visible on Twitter, it's not really giving other people information about, about you. 43:54 But, like, the purpose of a like isn't to signi- it's just to signify to the algorithm that, like, feed me more things like this. 44:00 Or more, like, insidiously, insidiously, it's like, as these things become perhaps more tracked by government agencies, it's just you're signi- you're just giving, you're just giving out information about yourself for people to, like, build these, these [laughs] profiles. 44:14 Which starts to sound a little tin hat, right? But, I mean, it is what it is. No, it's so true. I asked ChatGPT, like, 44:21 if you, if you say something about yourself on Twitter that's sarcastic, like, ChatGPT will incorporate it as fact. And I was like, 44:30 I don't know, maybe this is egotistical, but I was like, what does ChatGPT know about me or say about me? 'Cause like, sometimes, like, you Google yourself to be like- Mm-hmm... 44:37 what comes up, and I'm like, if somebody just went to ChatGPT and was like, "Who is Daisy Alioto?" Like, what would come up? And for some reason, I was, like, asked what my height was. 44:45 [laughs] I'd forgotten that I had done this old tweet that was like, "I'm too tall to be a manic pixie dream girl- Mm-hmm... and too short to model, but I'm the perfect height to ruin your life." 44:56 And ChatGPT gave your exact height. And ChatGPT is like, [laughs] "Daisy Alioto's, like, height is unknown, but she has said..." [laughs] And it just, like, pulls up this tweet, which honestly- [laughs]... 45:05 shouldn't even be online anymore, because I use TweetDelete, and I was like, okay. And then I was like, can you send me a link to that tweet, and I retweeted it. 45:14 Um, but I was like, wow, you gotta really [laughs] be careful. Like, I am in the process of training ChatGPT to believe that I'm related to the Pope, because yesterday- [laughs]... 45:24 I found out that the Pope has an Alioto in his paternal grandparents' line from Sicily. Mm. And I'm like, you know, obviously I asked ChatGPT, like, are all Aliotos from Sicily related? 45:36 And they were like, no, but, like, yes. You know what I mean? Like- Mm-hmm... 45:41 in the sense that, like, yeah, there probably is, like, a common ancestor, but to your point about deleting yourself, I took all of my info off 23andMe after the bankruptcy and was like, delete everything. 45:53 And now I'll never know if I'm actually related to the Pope. Doesn't that suck? Well, you know, it's about having faith that you are. Oh, my God, thanks, Francis. 46:02 Well, actually, this is a really good connection to something else that I wanted to talk about, which is the piece that you wrote for Dirt's Trash Package about the evolution of the desktop- Mm... trash icon over time. 46:15 Um, and you had this really good quote where you said, "The act of deleting things on computers is misleading. 46:23 Interfaces tempt us to throw things away, but really we're just moving data around, placing things in a holding folder until more permanent steps are taken." Um, I did take those permanent steps with 23andMe. 46:35 But I think, like, this really, you know, it really plays into, like, what we're saying, which is that it's almost... Data is almost like energy in the universe in that it's like there's a fixed amount, and you... 46:49 It's never really created or destroyed, it's just redistributed, um, either into a different interface or somewhere where we can't, somewhere we can't go. [laughs] Um, and I don't know. 47:02 Have you, have you thought about it more since you wrote that article? And, like, it seems like the idea of throwing things away online is changing at a really rapid pace. 47:13 Yeah, it, it is, but I think it's, you know, the same argument overall. Um, and certainly not a, a new idea either. I think also in that article I quoted, um, Programmed Visions, which is by Wendy, um, Hui Kyong Chun. 47:30 And i- in it she, like, talks about the metaphors of, of computers and being metaphors of metaphors essentially. And so I don't necessarily think it's a new idea or one that's really changing a whole lot. 47:42 Well, I don't know. I'm interested in your 23andMe, you know, steps, um, and if, if you're confident that they're really permanent. Uh, I'm... 47:49 No, [laughs] I'm not confident in that at all, but I am confident- Well, I think, wait-... that I can't log back in and be like, "Chat, are we related to the Pope?" 47:55 [laughs] I feel like, I feel like the metaphor here is more, like, like, on, on the internet, data is, is litter, right? 48:01 And it breaks down into these microplastics that get, or whatever, that get redistributed across, like, you know, whatever data warehouse here and there. Mm-hmm. 48:08 And this one's scraping that one, and, like, replicated and duplicated, and it's like, it's like, um, in the way we were talking about earlier about how, like, you know, a garden will come back and be resurgent, and all these little bits of seeds, which seeds are data, right? 48:21 Will, like, will, will sprout again. It's like anything you put on the internet is sort of like a seed that gets distributed on the wind by these other things that are tracking it and storing it in other places, right? 48:31 So, like, can you really- I used to feel that way. It's all litter. Yeah. But it's, like, the difference. It's like those pieces of data used to feel more like those dandelion pieces that- Mm-hmm... 48:41 I can't remember the name for anything today. The... 'Cause they, they blow in the wind and then they take root. But microplastics- Yeah... feel different. It's like they never take root. 48:48 They just take up space and sort of invade. 48:51 And I feel like that's the difference between data that, like, has information encoded in it and data that's, like, slop.And, like, the mechanisms have stayed the same or, like, accelerated, but it's not... 49:05 it doesn't feel like a fertile garden anymore. Yeah. Well, also just on microplastics in general, like, I saw something, I don't know if it's true, but apparently glass bottles have more of them- I saw this... 49:15 than plastic. [laughs] Yeah. I saw that too. Maybe perhaps you even saw that on clone.fyi. [laughs] But I mean, it's sort of... Maybe it's, like, a shifting way we're thinking about these microplastics. 49:26 You know, as you were talking, it reminded me of, um, there's this artist, Olia Lialina, and there's the project One Terabyte of Kilobyte Age, which is basically- Mm... all of, um... 49:35 Do you know Geo- Geo- Geocities from- Yeah. Mm-hmm... like, yeah. 49:38 So Geocities, when they shut down, um, they were just gonna get rid of all that data, which, again, I don't really know what that means, but then Olia Lialina and Dragan Espenschied, like, took over the data, and now it, like, exists on, like, a Tumblr, and, and you can... 49:52 It, like, take screenshots of the little sites. 49:55 So I don't know what my point is exactly, but it felt, um, like there was a real fear of this data being gone forever 'cause it's such a snapshot of people's way of expressing themselves on the early internet. 50:10 Um, and then now it kind of lives on. And I know Rhizome, I think, owns it as well maybe. I wanted to go back to asking about working for Kate Spade, 'cause every time... 50:19 I remember introducing you to my friend Alex at the Blank launch party, and I was like... 50:23 I felt like I was introducing the two most interesting women in the world because both of you, each time I talk to you, you drop, like, some lore that I'm like, how is that possible that you've lived, like, seven different lives? 50:34 Like, every time I talk to Alex, she'll be like, "Oh, when I worked at this architecture firm," I'm like, "What?" Or like, "Oh, I dated," you know, redacted- [laughs]... band member. And it's like, "What?" You know? 50:46 Like, and I feel similarly with you, Nika. Like, I had no idea that you had been at Kate Spade until I looked at your LinkedIn in preparation for this call. 50:54 [laughs] And I feel like I have this weird thing where I'm convinced that, like, Obama era Kate Spade- [laughs]... explains everything about, like [laughs] 51:05 the shift in visual culture maybe related to Edmund Lao's, like, dark mode theory. But that was, like, peak light mode, right? Like, [lips smack] everything was wonderful, everything was great, which made... 51:18 We're talking about death a lot today, which made, like, Kate Spade's suicide, I think, that much darker to people because- Yeah... it felt so incongruous with the public aesthetic and persona of the brand. 51:33 But they also did have, like, such a strong, interesting visual language, and this was before the sort of, like, "I'm just a girl" thing. 51:44 Like, um, it was just very whimsical, and I'm curious, like, what that experience was like. Did you identify with that visual language? Did you help develop it? Do you still- Mm-hmm... 51:55 have Kate Spade purses from the Obama era? I think I finally moved mine along. [laughs] Um, yeah. That's a really interesting question, and your friend was really lovely, so thanks for introducing us. 52:07 But, um, and just from what you were talking, the first thing that immediately came up was thinking about the impact of her suicide, and I remember finding out that she had hung herself, um, like in her house with, like, a red scarf. 52:19 And, like, I get goosebumps thinking about that. Mm-hmm. That it felt very in line with her whole sensibility and, like, what the s- the store, you know, represented and... 52:29 You know, it's interesting how something can feel so light-hearted and whimsical and fun, but then has this, like, weighty, sinister quality to it. [clears throat] Similar to, like, the Virgin Suicides aesthetic too. 52:40 Like, I think the way that book was written is lyrical, and the way that Sofia Coppola represented it visually, had this, like, naivety to it that was super stylized, but then there's, like, this weight to it. 52:51 Um- I was at a knockoff Pinkberry when I found out. So, like- [laughs] Not Pinkberry... I mean, throw Froyo in the mix. [laughs] Wanna talk about, like, the Obama era. 52:59 Like, I was literally getting Froyo with my mom at a knockoff Pinkberry. I forget what it's called. I think it has, like, a frog on it, and it's like fr- Mango? Was it Red Mango or something like that? 53:09 [laughs] Uh, I don't know. They're, like, Christian. Um, I'll look it up. [laughs] It was, like, a Christian knockoff Pinkberry with a cartoon frog, and I'm, like, sitting there with my mom like- [laughs]... 53:18 "Oh, Kate Spade killed herself?" Hm. Just, like, talk about, like, one little event that's not even the biggest event but feels like the end of an era. Um- Uh-huh. I, yeah, I ha- I remember where I was too. 53:31 I remember I was, um, in the Flatiron, that park. Like, is it Madison Square Park? Yeah. Like, I was there, and it was warm out, and I remember having to sit down. Like, I was really surprised. Yeah. Yeah, you're right. 53:42 It's not like 9/11 by any means, but it was still, um, something that you had, like, an emotional reaction to if you, you know, maybe re-re- resonated with that visual language and that time period. Yeah, absolutely. 53:55 You... We were talking about book covers earlier, and I wanted to jump in with this, but I thought it made more sense in the context of what we're launching next week. 54:03 We had this great piece in Prune by Becca Walks about the evolution of Italo Calvino covers over time, and I think at that point we were already hard at work on [laughs] what we'll be launching next week, um, with some of Nika's students, which is a new edition of the Night Life Review. 54:22 Uh, but this edition is... I have to say, it's our most beautiful edition because it has been... There is a custom website and web home for it that Nika designed, and, um, [lips smack] it is Italo Calvino themed. 54:37 So we took the idea and vibe and structure of the book Invisible Cities, which is one of my favorite books about, um, 54:47 you know, sort of a retelling of visiting these cities that don't really exist and all of them are sort of in some form Venice, which is the narrator's home, and applying it to nightlife. 54:58 And we gave the students this prompt of, like, what would invisible nightlife be?You know, what would it be like to tell tales and stories and create multimedia presentations of a speculative version of nightlife? 55:14 Um, and the outcome is this, uh, Invisible Nightlife edition of the Nightlife Review, and I'll let Nika talk about how she decided to represent that visually because it's, you know, my favorite part of the whole thing, obviously. 55:28 Thanks. Yeah, it's been really fun working on that together and, and we share that reference or the book as, as one of our favorites as well. And, um, in, in terms of the design, 55:39 w- I wanted something to feel, uh, that felt ephemeral but also had a nod to the original book covers. 55:45 I think that was also a reference we looked at together where there's kind of this coherent system to all of the Calvino books, whereas, like, signature, like, or s- handwriting writes out the cover, and then there's, like, these abstract shapes. 55:56 And so I think having something that could be replicable and having a visual language to it that had some sort of hidden meaning was important. 56:04 And then, um, I also really like this idea of developing, like, a fictional environment, and I think a lot of the stories ended up echoing that sentiment. 56:13 And so the website itself, um, shuts down, so it's only online technically from 12 to 6 a.m. [laughs] And- I love that. Francis's- Yeah... mind is blown. [laughs] I mean, there, there may or may not be, like, a loophole. 56:30 [laughs] Yeah, there may or may not be a loophole. But, um, I think- She had to tell me, though. I never would have discovered that myself. There's a VIP line. [laughs] Yeah. 56:38 Yeah, 'cause we do wanna make sure the students are able to share their work because we did make this to help them, you know- Mm-hmm... 56:44 and distribute their work and give them an opportunity to publish, experiment, uh, um, experiment with language and form. And so, um, so that's, like, a big part of the design. 56:53 Um, it, it also kind of straddles this idea of being, like, nostalgic and contemporary. Um- Mm-hmm... like, the two typefaces we're using, um, one is called, um, Visual by All Caps. 57:06 It's sort of like a modern-day pixel typeface, but it's also very smooth. 57:10 Like, actual pixel typefaces that are bitmapped from, you know, the '90s are always jagged because that was a limitation of the screens, whereas this one is actually, like, almost just has, like, a nice texture to it. 57:21 And then Ivory by Linotype is, uh, I don't know. I, I see it as sort of like a 1970s serif. It's, like, very weighty. 57:28 There's not a lot of contrast, so there's, like, a lot of heaviness to the site, and then there's, like, these moments that are fleeting. Like, like, it's not, not online all the time. 57:36 Um, on desktop, the table of content sort of rotates around slowly, kind of working like a clock. And then I also, again, used illustrations that I drew with a Sharpie and then scanned. 57:48 So yeah, I think there's a lot of friction, um, and tension between, you know, weight, um, and then time. That's how I would describe the design. Can't wait to see it. Yeah. 57:59 There's a way to read Invisible Cities where you're sort of, like, following the system of categories and subcategories that Calvino set out, and it's very complicated. Like, I wouldn't... 58:10 I've read it multiple times, and I wouldn't claim to, like, 100% understand- I'll admit that I've never read it... how that works. Well, it's actually a quick read. It's... 58:17 What makes it not quick is if you really wanted to delve into some of these systems that he set up. But we decided to do a nod to that with, like, these four sort of, like, 58:28 symbols, um, that Nika drew, and they correspond with, like, four different categories. So there's eight stories and two in each category, so you could do it by, you know, reading one category first. 58:42 Um, and then we took that from one of the student's pieces where she had these four categories and different diary entries where you can read them all the way through, or you could take four different tracks through the piece where you only read the, the entries that fall into each category. 58:58 Yeah. I thought that was really beautiful, and I love the way, uh, Michaela's piece, uh, ended up doing that and offering a system for us to use. 59:07 Um, yeah, I think there were never ending, white, blood, and buried nights. Yeah. Uh, yeah. That, that was very smart. 59:14 And yeah, I, I think, um, s- about the design, too, in the original Invisible Cities, that system that Daisy's describing is like... 59:21 I feel like it's, um, what order they're in and then h- how, how many times it appears in a certain category. So it's like there's two numbers. Mm-hmm. 59:31 Um, and I think, you know, w- we nodded to that, but ours is a little more simple. It's just like- Yeah... you know, the categories have an image that goes along with it. Yeah. It was a good experience for me. 59:42 I mean, you work with students all the time, but I don't often have the experience of working directly with people that are in an educational environment, and I think that that was really good for me to do. 59:53 It's a different type of workshopping and learning than I would do with a freelance writer, even though the editorial process is the same. So I was really grateful for that opportunity as well. 1:00:06 Yeah, we were really lucky to have you, and I think it's just, um, such a luxury to get to, to meet an editor and to have, um, feedback, you know, outside of the school, and also to create the space for our humanities to exist outside of academia. 1:00:19 I really think it's so important, and I think, you know, there's a lot of concerns about AI and how that's impacting creative fields. 1:00:26 But I think having, um, a personal style and way of communicating, whether it's through language, form, websites, whatever, it's always gonna be important. I think that's the perfect note to end on. That was really fun. 1:00:37 Do you agree, Francis? I do agree. This has been Taste Slant. Nika, thanks for coming on. Francis is a little jet lagged. [laughs] I'm what? I'm jet lagged. He's a little jet lagged. I'm a little jet lagged. 1:00:46 [outro music]
