Transcript 0:00 [upbeat music] Welcome back to Tasteland. I am your co-host, Francis Zehr. And I'm Daisy Alioto. And today we will be talking with Jeremy Kirkland, uh, the host of Blamo, podcast veteran at this point. 0:17 It's been around for nine years. Real style guy. Um, his podcast hosts interviews with a real murderer's row of- [laughs]... fashion world people. [laughs] Uh, yeah, I'm excited to talk to him. 0:30 He's also a watch guy, which is perfect for me. He's a big watch guy. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, it's gonna be... There's gonna be watch talk. We should find out if he's a perfume guy. Who knows? Fragrance head. 0:39 100% we should find out if he's a perfume guy. Jeremy fragrance. [laughs] Jeremy fragrance. Oh, my gosh. That's a deep cut. Mm-hmm. Well, speaking of fragrance, I did have a tweet about my exterminator go viral. 0:52 [laughs] Um, I was a little... All the comments were very nice, and I will tell you what the tweet was. But one of them was like- Wait, wait, wait. Why do you say speaking of fragrance? 0:59 It's 'cause exterminators spray poisonous gas? Exactly. Yeah. Okay. Thank you. You understand my mind at this point- [laughs]... on a deep level. I'm a little tired today, okay? 1:07 Um, well, pace yourself because- Will do... we're recording two podcast episodes today. They don't need to know that. Um, well, now they know. Now they know. 1:14 Um, anyway, they were like, "How often do you need an exterminator?" And I was like, "My landlord sends him once a month regardless." Like, I think that's like a New York thing. Not for me. Maybe in my building. Yeah. 1:26 I... Yeah, we had, in New Orleans... New Orleans was another matter. Yeah. 1:31 Well, we have construction going on next door, so he sort of impressed upon me the importance of, like, sometimes letting this guy in because I think when you have construction, it, like, drives the critters out of that plot, and sometimes they just run into the next building over- Yeah... 1:45 is my layman's understanding. 1:47 But actually, so the tweet was about how I told my exterminator when I let him in last week, "Hey, a couple months ago, they sent another guy, and I knew it wasn't you from-" This is, this is canon. 1:58 I forget if this was on... if you talked about this on the mic, but you definitely talked to me about this at length- I did too about it... on and off the mic. Maybe off the mic. I don't know. 2:05 [laughs] Well, it was upsetting. This wasn't in the tweet. So this is backstory that wasn't in the tweet, and I was like- Sure... should I add this later? But I was like, no, I'll just leave it as, like, a nice story. 2:11 So- It's for the, it's for the, the for the listeners. Yeah. Yeah. Friends of the pod. Mm-hmm. 2:16 So I could tell from his knock that it wasn't my normal guy, and with my normal guy, sometimes he knocks, and if I've just gotten out of the shower, or if I'm in the middle of, like, writing or something, I just don't answer, and he leaves. 2:28 Yeah. This other person, I hear, like, an aggressive knock, and I was like, "Huh." Like, instead of a doo, doo, doo, doo, it's like bang, bang. Yeah. Yeah. 2:37 [laughs] So like, uh, my regular guy, he does, like, a soft knock or, like, shave and haircut. Mm, that's what it is. Yeah. So aggressive knock, but it's a Thursday. 2:47 It's the first Thursday of the month, so I know- Mm-hmm... it's the exterminator, and I'm like... I ha- literally was naked in my room. Mm. So I was like, "He'll just go away." [laughs] He doesn't know that. 2:55 Well, then I, then I hear my door open. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And I'm like- This is it. Yeah, yeah... okay, this guy's in my apartment, and it's not my normal guy. 3:03 Furthermore, my normal guy would not let himself into my apartment. Like, I have my, my perception of who my exterminator is, and he's a soft knocker who's not gonna let himself into my apartment. 3:13 So I just scream, like, "Get the fuck out." [laughs] I don't even, like, see him. I never see him at any point. But I know it's not my guy. So he leaves, and then he, like, comes back. 3:25 I hear him come back, and I still haven't left- He's got a job to do... I still haven't left my room. I'm in, like, fight or flight, and I'm like, "Get the fuck out." 3:32 So I text my landlord, and I'm like, "Exterminator let him himself in. Furthermore, don't think it was the usual guy. Like, who did you send? This guy's knock was all wrong." 3:42 Like, just, like, going full Cecilia, and Ben's like, "This is unacceptable." Um, [laughs] and then- You are wearing the Italia shirt today. Now we have, like, a... Yeah, right. 3:50 Now we have a bar that goes under our knob, but I hadn't seen my regular exterminator since. I think I was maybe in Maine, like, last time he came. So I let him in last week, and I'm like, "Hey." 4:01 He does shave and a haircut softly. Yeah. I let him in. I'm like, "Hey, they sent another guy a couple months ago. It wasn't you, right?" And he was like, "You didn't..." He was like... He was like... 4:09 I was like, "He let himself in." He was like, "What? No, I would never do that." And I was like, "And his knock was so aggressive." And he was like, "No, I always make my knock a little song." So, [laughs] 4:19 that's- So wait, this tweet has how many likes? Oh, I actually hadn't checked. Do you have the- How, how viral did you go? How viral? Yeah. I mean, it's crazy, 'cause my, my tweets get like five likes now. 4:31 But I just use it as my diary. Yeah. So I'm like, I don't give a fuck. Um, let's see. I'm bad at... I'm gonna... I'm just gonna say it. I'm bad at Twitter. I don't even know, like, what that means anymore. 4:42 You know what I mean? Yeah. I, I- Uh, I mean, I did blow the lid off of the whole Wayfair furniture situation. It got like 10 likes. [laughs] What? And I was like, okay, well, like- What are you talking about?... 4:50 I have inside... Well, you know how people are like, "Oh, they're shipping children in the Wayfairs- Yeah. Mm-hmm... because they're, they're people's names"? 4:56 My brother worked at Wayfair at the time, and they just randomized their employees' names. So if you plug Alioto into Wayfair, like, multiple people, pieces of furniture come up. That's crazy. 5:04 So somebody brings that up again, and I was like, "Yeah, this is what was going on, and, like, nobody even noticed." And I was like, "Well, I'm telling you." Okay, so exterminator tweet, 15,000 likes. Oh, wow. 5:16 389 retweets, 314 bookmarks. [upbeat music] Well, Daisy, don't spend it all in one place, but do put it in your savings because Jeremy is here. All right, let's go. 5:27 [upbeat music] We have a joke that, uh, like, all podcasts are really restaurant podcasts, 'cause I think- Mm... 5:41 most of the time those strong opinions loosely held are about restaurants, but maybe that's just 'cause I listen to Hell Bon Jon primarily. Well, it's just... 5:47 Yeah, I was gonna say, it sounds like you just listen to Chris and Jason. [laughs] And, and I, I think I... See, I, at, at the same time, I've been trying to, trying to divest from restaurant opinionship- Mm... 5:57 from having an opinion on restaurants in general. Uh, I, uh, I mean, I've talked about this before on the pod, but I did use Resy, um, last night to book-A place for Friday. 6:10 Uh, but I'm happy to say it was the type of place that's been open long enough, every slot was open. Beautiful. Full choices. Love to see it. 6:17 It used to be if I was d- you know, setting 10 notifications, I've got a lot of vices, but Resy is no longer really one of them. Are you gonna name the restaurant, or you wanna wait till you actually eat there? Um, 6:29 uh, I'm just gonna say it's in the Green Point, Williamsburg area. Mm. Mm. Oh, that's about 6,000 restaurants. [laughs] Good call. Yeah. [laughs] Well, you know, this comes out tomorrow. I'm eating there on Friday. 6:40 Oh, yeah. I don't need our rabid fans to... [laughs] Right. Right. Yeah, it's not capped. Excuse me. I don't know if I should come to your table or maybe just send something over. Um- Just send a martini. Yeah. 6:50 Three olives. That's... Oh, wow. You know, I will say that's the best part of living in the suburbs now is I- Mm... don't have to deal with- You're free?... with any of the sort of, like, weird restaurant stuff. 7:03 But- Whereabouts are you? I'm in St. Louis, Missouri, which is- Dang. The original suburb... uh- Which, are you... You, you went to college there, but you're not from there, right? No, I'm f- I am from, from St. Louis. 7:13 Okay, you're from there. Yeah. Okay. I lived in New York and then left New York at, like, end of 2020. Mm-hmm. Mm. And, um- Classic time to do so. Yeah. Well, things were, things were a little nuts. Yeah, why? 7:24 [laughs] And, um, then... And now I commute to New York, like, once a month or so, which- Once a month? Yeah, it's a little intense. By plane? Oh, yeah. [laughs] It's a short- Uh-... flight. It's- Yeah, yeah. 7:37 You know, I take a, what, it, it's usually a 7:00, 7:00 AM flight. And I'm, like, you know, grabbing a coffee at, like, 9:30, 10:00 AM. Well, is this to record pods, to work with clients, to, to hang out? Yeah. 7:50 It's- All of the above? It's usually, like, pod and client stuff. You know, I'm one of those people that, [clears throat] 7:56 like, I have a podcast, but it's been going on for so long that now, like, the overhead is sky high, and I also make other shows for other people. And so it's like this hamster wheel that I will forever keep turning. 8:08 But I make a living working with, like, brands and doing events and other stuff, so... You did, you spoke about this. I listened to an interview you did, um, with I think Garbology, I think it's called, a year ago. 8:22 Uh- I might have the name wrong. British guy. Yes. That's, that's- Yeah. 8:26 You were, you were talking about this, how, um, the podcast basically just pays for itself, um, and is almost, almost like top of funnel for your consulting work. Mm. It is. And it, it's like I used to- Or a validator. 8:38 Yeah, I used to be really pissed about that. And I was... I remember complaining about it to another friend of mine, who was like, "Get over it." [laughs] I was like, "Fair response." He was just like, "Dude, who cares?" 8:50 He's like, "You're working. You're gonna be fine. Let it go." And I was like, "Okay." 8:55 You know, but I think anyone who's especially in this, like, tiny, miniature sort of menswear, fashion, hot take, whatever people wanna call it world, uh, is constantly looking over their shoulder. 9:07 You can just name them, Jim and Larry. No. D- Lawrence and, Lawrence and, uh, those guys, I mean, Lawrence and James are, like, some of my best buds. Um, I mean, Lawrence, weirdly, I've known for, 9:19 like, yeah, like 17 years now. Wow. You know? That's a long time. Yeah, I mean, he's... Yeah, I mean, he's one of my best friends. But we, uh, he... 9:27 Actually, it's funny, Lawrence is a very good barometer for podcasting, because- Hm... he does not... 9:34 For me, every s- every single episode I do, anything, I'm like, "Okay," like, I agonized over this edit, over this, like, did we shape this conversation correctly? Did this... Was this person framed right? 9:45 Did I, did I serve them well? You know? Yeah. A lot of times, like, I, the people that I get to have on the show are just people that I like. 9:52 So I mean, that's why you never really hear me, like, getting into arguments or stuff with anyone. Hospitality is a big part of being an interviewer, especially when you're, like, a solo interviewer, I think. Yeah. 10:01 And it's like I want people to feel comfortable. 10:03 You know, I want people to enjoy themselves, and I also wanna have something that is gonna be relevant to what we're talking about versus, "Oh, you work with X brand, and you're gonna do the same, like, pitch that you do on every s-" Like, there's no point in doing that with me. 10:17 Let's not do press releases. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, that's so lame. And so, um, I remember, like, getting pissed off over stuff, and I was, like, venting to Larry. And he was like, "Dude, just record another one." 10:27 He's like, "Just do another podcast." And I was like, "Oh." He's like, "You could... Then, then if that doesn't work, just do another episode." It's just like, "Nobody's gonna remember this episode. Just do it anyway." 10:36 He, yeah, he's just like, "It doesn't matter." Yeah. And no- And not to... And it wasn't, like, a shot at me. It was just like- Yeah... "Just keep going." And it's funny 'cause I think people, 10:46 no one gives Lawrence enough credit for how fucking brilliant he is in terms of his, like, pop culture knowledge. And he can talk in any lane. 10:58 He's an expert in, like, 99% of the stuff that, you know, everyone's talking about. But he sits back and puts on this kinda, you know, goofball character. Um- Mm-hmm... and it's, it's crazy. 11:08 I mean, his, his knowledge of, like, sports analytics is fucking encyclopedic. I, I have no idea. 11:14 Like, we're talking about baseball, and he knows about, like, David Wright's contracts and all these other things, and I'm like, "What? Since when?" 11:20 So is this strong opinions loosely held or just strong opinions strongly held? It's, it's facts that he's got stuck in his brain. [laughs] Strong to statistics strongly remembered. [laughs] Yeah, exactly. Hm. 11:30 And I'm just like, "Whoa." That's really hard. I'm not so good at remembering all those statistics, honestly. Who is? That's, that's why I'm better in the interviewer's [laughs] seat when I have my notes. Yeah. 11:40 Is his relationship towards Throwing Fits as a top of funnel, or is it a different relationship? And have you been able to sort of, like, learn from that- Um-... through proximity to him? Lawrence and James, 11:53 this isn't, like, mean or b- anything at all. I mean, it's funny I preface it with this. [laughs] But like, like 12:00 Larry is this, like, comic relief, goofball guy who is basically, like-We'll dive deep into certain subjects, and James is kinda like the showrunner in the sense that like, okay, yeah, like I c- you can see James editing their pod in real time in terms of- Yeah... 12:17 like pushing a person to another subject. So I think they very much know their- He's the one who has the notes in front of him. I can always tell- Yeah... when I've listened. Yeah. 12:24 Yeah, they very much know, like, their lane. And I think whether they discuss it publicly or not, um, is separate from the fact that, like, they're just, like, they're lockstep with each other. 12:34 Um, I mean, they, they razz each other so much that their listeners even get pissed off about it. Mm-hmm. But, um, they, those guys are, like, really fucking on lock. 12:43 And I think they're probably some of the smartest dudes in terms of business. I mean, they- I will say that- They crush it. 12:50 [laughs] Reading, uh, discovering, a, a friend sending me Four Pins in 2013 when I was a sophomore in college is responsible for me spending many thousands of dollars on, on Our Legacy over the last- On pants?... 13:04 more than a decade. Yeah. Pants, shoes, shirts. I could, I could... Full outfit. Bigger question- I'm not actually wearing any right now. Yeah, I was gonna say, do you wear it now, or do you still own it? 13:13 'Cause that's, that's the thing. I do. I, no, I do. Uh, right now, I mean, it's just hot, so I'm wearing just a linen shirt and some shorts, um, that... I'm, I'm just in my work from home, you know, like- Mm-hmm... 13:23 the shirt will look nice on the one social clip we cut here. Sure. Um, I still b- I still buy it. I still buy it. Though predictably, I'll let you guess which brand I've gotten into more over the past year. 13:34 Mm, A.P.R.E.S.? No. Oh, fuck. It's also scandi. Um, scandi? That's too many brands. All of the brands are scandi. Okay. It's MF Pen. Oh, it, MF Pen, never would've guessed that. Really? No way. After, after Our Legacy? 13:51 Well, I mean, yeah, I guess that w- That's, that's the logical step into, like, I want better taste. I want more refinement. Yeah. I want less people to know who this brand is. Oh, yeah. 14:01 [laughs] Sounds like you're a stereotype, Francis. I am. I, happily. And it's also much better priced now. 14:07 Um, I too am a stereotype, because I'm wearing an LA Apparel tennis skirt, an Italy jersey, a Hodinkee Swatch, and UGG slippers. [laughs] That's pretty... 14:18 I, it's, it's cool seeing people wear the, uh, wearing, like, soccer or football jerseys again. You're like, "It's cool seeing people brave enough to look like shit in their own home." [laughs] Whoa, whoa, whoa. 14:26 You're talking to a guy who's wearing a, a beat-up Motorola gym shirt. Yeah, and it's cool. Then I was like, oh yeah, don't worry. It's cool. They're not, they're not gonna record video. 14:35 They're not gonna use video in this, first thing. No, hey. Got- [laughs]... your video. Got your ass. [laughs] Oh, okay. This will be... This actually would be a perfect video to cut just this clip. 14:43 [laughs] This is the clip. Yeah. There you go. Uh, anyways. Um- Um, okay, wait, anyways, I wanna bring it back around to w- we got off track- Sorry... on talking about the business of Blamo. 14:52 No, uh, don't, do not apologize. Don't apologize. I'm too serious. We got off track talking about the business of Blamo. Um, I looked at the Patreon. Just under 3,000 members right now. Brings in 7,643 a month. 15:02 But I believe this also funds not just Blamo, but The J.J.J. Show, and then you also work with Derek Guy- Yeah... and Peter Zottolo under Blamo. So Blamo is a network that's these three podcasts, right? Correct, yeah. 15:16 Um, and that is, uh, I don't know. I, I think initially that was not the plan. But in my head, I was like, "Oh, I know how to do this. I'm gonna reach out to all these people and have them do their pods." So, like- Mm... 15:29 at one point during the pandemic, Mordecai was gonna do a pod. Yeah. And we got, uh- Mr. M-... Mordecai Rubenstein, Mr. Mord. Yeah. Yeah. And we got, like, five or six episodes in the can. 15:42 There is actually one with him and Andy Spade. Wow. And it's, it's great. I mean, I have it. And, you know, but I think- This is, like, the, the, that Wu-Tang album that- Blue Ray extras. Yeah, yeah. [laughs] Yeah. 15:55 The producing a pod, making a pod, all these things, they're, like, different, I don't know, different parts of your brain. 16:02 And I think Mordecai, genius host, and I was like, you know, "Let's keep, let's keep going, let's keep going." And he was like, "Ah, I don't know, like, this is just kinda fun. 16:10 Like, you know, how many do we actually need to do?" And I was like, "Oh, okay, that's not gonna happen." 16:15 You know, then at another point, there was another person I was talking to, and they were like, "Let's make a show, let's make a show." And in my head, I was like, look, I have all these tools. 16:24 I, I fully believe the, the table is infinite. I'm not, like, I'm not competing with anyone. I don't think anyone's competing with me. Like, let's just get- Mm... more good stuff out there. 16:33 And in my head, I was like, look, a rising tide's gonna lift, uh, all ships here. And a couple other people, we tried to do some stuff. Um, didn't work out. 16:41 Then at one point, we were talking with Conde Nast about doing this show. Um, it doesn't matter now, because, you know, it, but it was called Cover Story. 16:54 And the whole point of it was like, okay, we're not gonna do, like, a chat podcast. We're gonna do more of, like, this kind of, like, NPR-y sort of, like- Yeah... expose. And, like, we're gonna do- Scripted. Yeah. 17:04 We're gonna do, like, basically behind the scenes of specific magazine covers. Mm. So, like, what went into the, you know, Britney Spears Teletubbies cover. Mm. 17:12 And, like, how did that affect, you know, pop culture at the time? Like, who shot it? What did that look like? What was those? You know, and what did that mean for sexualizing women and all these other things. 17:21 And I was like, "This is gonna be great." This American Life magazine. [laughs] Yeah. Yeah. And- It sounds like a home run, yeah. Well, and then Conde Nast was like, "That sounds awesome. 17:28 How about we do it, you know, ooh, we got a tight budget. I bet we can do maybe $1,500 an episode." And I was like, "There's, like, 12 people that- Yeah... need to work on it." Yeah. 17:39 And they were like, "Oh, we thought you were just gonna talk and talk about a magazine cover." And I was like, "What?" And so I realized how painfully difficult it is to do- Yeah... network. I'm kinda air quoting there. 17:50 And then I had- Yeah... people from NPR that reached out to me, people from Pineapple Street, RIP, that reached out to me, and they were like, "Hey, like, you can do this. Let us help. You know, we can work together. 18:00 Maybe we partner up. We do, like, a co-branded show thing." And then I realized I was spending all my time just on the, like, business of trying to just make a fucking show instead of making the show. 18:11 And I was like, "This, this sucks." And so meanwhile-Uh, Derek Guy, whom I've known for eons, is a very, very good friend. The Menswear Guy? And, and- Did you meet on Twitter? Listen. I don't know him. How did you meet? 18:23 We met, I think... No, this was pre-Twitter. This would've been... I mean, he probably had a Twitter at that time, but he was doing Die Workwear. Mm-hmm. Right. I was doing... 18:35 I think I might've been doing my blog at the time. But like, I was still working at Beggars. Okay. So it would've been 2010, '11 or so. Um, and we just stayed in touch, and I was like, "Dude, you need to do a podcast. 18:51 You should do a podcast." And he was like, "Yeah, I don't, but I don't wanna deal with all this crap." But he was like, "Derek is w- is basically relentless and just works- Mm-hmm... nonstop." 19:01 And so I was like, "Well, here, let's do this." I was like, "Let me... I'll, like, hold your hand." I was like, "I'll, I will be your co-host. I'll do..." You know. 19:08 Long story short, few years later he's finally like, "Okay, let's do it." We start doing it, and I think it was just me and him, and then it was just Derek, and he was like, "Yeah, no, I need another person." 19:24 And Peter- Yeah... Zetolo, who's a good friend and, and a good friend of his, and you know, I mean, Derek really values his privacy, which I completely respect. And so Peter and Derek are super close. 19:36 They started doing it together, and that kinda like popped off around the same time as his Twitter stuff. Mm. 19:41 But, um, it's interesting 'cause, like, there was an effect that happened with, like, the sort of, like, Patreon itself. Because for me, it's like the Patreon is not the core goal. It's not even our core listenership. 19:53 But it's, you know, basically just, like, you know, more nerdy fans per se. Yeah. 19:59 And, uh, there's a little Slack community, and everyone's talking about, I don't know, like, where to eat in Florence or w- whether some brand's cooked or if some watch is cool. 20:09 And, um- Who's chopped- And it's awesome... who's not chopped. [laughs] Yeah, and what's crazy is, like [laughs] it's an extremely positive vibe- Yeah... 20:18 community where there's a, there's like a h- a, there's like a homesteading one where people are talking about, like, home reno and stuff, but then there's one, there's a parenting one. Okay. And that, like, you have, 20:29 you know, different parents being like, "Hey, this happened with my kid," or, "What do I do with here?" And it's like, it's super wholesome. It's- Yeah. And I don't say it to, like, advertise. 20:35 I say it in the sense that, like, it's strange because, like, things like this don't really exist on the internet. Yeah. 20:41 And so I was like, well, I don't wanna, like, try to, like, monetize this so much, but also at the same time, you're like, I gotta pay daycare bills and health insurance. 20:51 I was like, so I'm not really exactly sure how we do this. But that's kinda been the... I think that's the stickiness of any- Mm... 20:58 of the stuff is so, like, people will come in and like, great, it's another interview or it's me doing a solo pod, or it's me and Gian and Jeff or somebody or whatever, but like, I think the thing that sticks people is the Slack. 21:12 But Derek comes in, and it's a completely different type of audience, a very transactional audience because his audience is so big. 21:22 And so- 'Ca- 'cause they, 'cause they, like, want him to, like, you know, rip them a new one or, like, tell them what, how they should wear a suit or something? What do you mean by that? 21:30 I think if you are in this, like... This sounds pejorative, like the creative economy, right? Mm. I mean, what a tacky fucking phrase. 21:40 But, like, if you're in this thing where people are essentially paying you for your opinion or for something that they think they could easily do themself- Yeah... 21:48 like talking, writing, which I think is, you know, that's a whole other conversation. Dunning-Kruger effect- There is this-... in action. Yeah. There is this, like, you sorta owe me, I pay your bill- Mm. Mm-hmm... 22:01 mentality. Yeah. Mm-hmm. So it's funny 'cause I would read, I'll read the exit interviews or the exit notes of Patreon, and they're crazy. 22:11 And it's like, "I messaged Derek, and he didn't respond to me, so I, you know, for that reason, I'm out." And you're like, "Whoa, okay." This is like, this sounds like some kind of weird OnlyFans. I have... Yeah. 22:22 It, it is in a, in a- Yeah... at least of some of these folks that came in wanting this, like, deeper relationship with Derek. 22:28 And so the audience that's in there, like these, like, more core people that are just like blamo folks, they're like, you know, someone's in there, and they're like, "Hey, rate my fit." 22:37 And people are like, "Yeah, you look great." And they're like, "Well, don't you wanna, like, nitpick it more?" And they're like, "No. Are you happy? You're good." 22:44 And it's like, you see these two roads diverge in a wood, [laughs] and it's just like, whoa, dude. Well, this is like... I, I feel like this kind of fit pic culture, like I'll still see this on, like, what's his name? 22:53 Uh, Mark Boutelier- Yeah, yeah, yeah... or however you say his last name, or, um, there's some other I feel like... 23:00 I think, I don't know if the Throwing Fits guys still do this, but they'll do, like, Fit Pic Friday or something on Instagram. And all these people tend to be a little younger. 23:07 You, you said, you said something I wrote down on that, on that Garmology pod, uh, that I'll read here. The, the, "That's the problem and opportunity of the internet. 23:14 A lot of times people are just trying to find a way to be comfortable with themselves by sharing," and you say, "I realize it's probably incorrect, but people try and be comfortable, comfortable with themselves by sharing a picture publicly. 23:24 If the criticism is, is fair, and you're inviting that criticism, then you should entertain it. But if you don't want it, don't share it." 23:30 Which the way you're describing this and how, like, this blamo culture is more just, like, wear what you want. 23:36 It's like, it sounds like it's people who, like, kind of have figured it out and are less d- worried about this, like, competitive, like, dress-up. Validation. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 23:48 That's crazy that I said that, man. I must have been on one that day. [laughs] That sounds kinda dope. I'm... You know, way to go, me, at that time. Um, yeah, I mean, I think m- a lot of this stuff where... 24:00 You know, 'cause people put me and Lawrence, like, together or where it's like, oh, and it's just a totally different fucking show to where it's like I don't ever care what anyone wears. Yeah. 24:10 I will make jokes about everything I wear. Mm. I will make jokes about my opinion and how I used to like this brand, and now I don't or I, you know. But, like, I don't care what you wear. 24:20 I want people to be happy, and I want people to know that they can be... involved in this world and community if they want. Like, that's it. Mm-hmm. And I think that sounds a little too Mr. 24:30 Rogers for people, because people almost want this, you know, anonymity of the internet- Yeah... to be this, like, cloak and dagger situation where you just talk shit and you make jokes at other people's expense. 24:41 And like, that's fine, but like, dude, that was fucking high school, and like, that was so long ago. Grew up. Yeah. Who cares about that now? 24:48 Like, you know, everyone here is, like, trying to make a living, they're trying to figure stuff out, and I am, like, almost stuck in this thing because if I... 25:00 [laughs] You know, like, I don't have anything else to go on. Like, I don't have a, I don't have a, a bunch of money. I don't have some sort of family name. 25:07 I don't have some sort of, like, prestigious education at some place. I can't go work at Wall Street or whatever. So like, this is it. So like, if I fuck up my reputation or any of that stuff, like, it's over for me. 25:17 Um- Taste is your 401[k]. Thanks for being, like, the good guy. Yeah. [laughs] So it's like, just be a nice person, I guess, but people are like, "That's fucking lame. Who does that?" 25:25 [laughs] And you're just like, "Okay. Uh, sure?" So I'm just like, you know, I'll just kinda, you know, second star on the right, straight on till morning, and just, like, get to Neverland, you know? 25:36 Just kinda like- Mm... keep, you know, move in that direction. And I recognize for some people... You know, it's funny, 'cause I'll read stuff on Reddit about me. Fucking sucks. Oh, no. 25:45 Don't do that, because I too am like any normal person who, like, when you talk mad shit, like, oh, it also hurts. You know, where it's like, "Oh, Kirkland's corny as fuck. He's so..." And I'm just like- Mm... 25:57 "Man, fuck you," you know? Like, well, whatever, your username is, like, Pepsican04. Like... [laughs] It's like- You okay? [laughs] Yeah. 26:04 I mean, with what you're saying about exit notes, so I'll have people respond to the newsletter being like, unsubscribe. Oh, boy. And sometimes I know them, and I'm like, "Are you stupid? Who do you think this goes to? 26:16 This is a startup, it goes to my personal email address." Yeah, yeah, yeah. And like, you, like, w- we have each other's phone number. And you- Oh, boy. 26:25 [laughs] It's also like, everyone knows the unsubscribe link is in the bottom. It's not hidden. Blows my mind that people can't find that. [laughs] Like, you're gonna be a boomer. And also, like, you've now emailed me. 26:39 Did you... So wait, how did you respond when they wrote unsubscribe? Were you like- Usually don't respond... "Hey, do you have feedback?" Oh, okay, smart. Usually don't respond, but somebody did it to me yesterday- Oh... 26:48 that I didn't know but could easily Google, and was like, this person, like, has one degree of separation from me. Mm. I just wrote back and I was like, "No problem. I'll get right on that for you." [laughs] Hey. Okay. 26:59 [laughs] So they, they didn't hear, they didn't hear your sort of cynicism. You know, they couldn't- No, it was the kind of worded- They couldn't discern the tone... customer service email. Yeah. "No prob." Yeah. 27:08 [laughs] But like, how are you not embarrassed? Unsubscribing is fine, fair play, but like, in 2025, you think that's done by responding with the word unsubscribe? The... 27:18 Wait, my one question is, I th- [sighs] 'cause I've wondered this too, 'cause, 'cause I get it with Curtis Felt. Yeah. 27:23 I think that, um, is that what happens when you click the unsubscribe button that Gmail gives you at the top of it? Is that how that, like, and it just- No... sends the word unsubscribe? No. No. No. What does that do? 27:33 No. I should know this. I have no idea how that black magic works, but- [laughs]... I'm just saying, like, it's in the footer of the email. Yeah. Everyone knows that. Like- Yeah. 27:45 That's the, that's the tough part- Yeah... where it's like, eventually, you know... 'Cause I'm like that too, where it's like I want everyone's opinion. Yeah. 27:53 But if your opinion is, like, really mean, like, I don't want it. And you're like, "Well, you can't really have both," you know? Yeah. And it's like, okay, so how can I, you know... 28:02 So I've, I've reached out to people where people have been like, "This sucked," or, "Kirkland said this and this," and you're like, okay. And I've been like, "Hey, what sort of feedback do you have?" 28:10 But then I'm like, what the fuck? Like, maybe I- They don't have feedback, they just want attention. Yeah. 28:14 And like, maybe I shouldn't seek everyone's feedback on some of these things and some of this stuff, and this is where a friend of mine told me, he's like, "Yeah, sometimes, like, if you've been, if you think you're doing the right thing, it's okay to keep going and, and, like, believe in yourself," you know? 28:31 Or be like, "You know what? Actually, I think I'm right, so I'm gonna keep doing this." Um, and that's a weird thing that I've been trying to do over the past couple years. 28:39 And I think, I don't know, parenting has helped a bunch, 'cause I'm like, "No, I'm sorry, you can't, you can't, like, you know, stay in the bath or, like, move your bed to the bathtub." 28:49 [laughs] "Like, what the fuck is that?" Mm-hmm. "No, I'm, I'm right on this one, we're not gonna do that." Yeah. Um, and so I'm like, okay, I'm gonna get a little more confidence. Gentle parenting your audience. 28:57 [laughs] Yeah, yeah. Gentle pa- [laughs] Yeah, wow, there you go. There's, there's your episode title. [laughs] Um- That's a good one... I mean, I don't mind it- You're producing a success... I don't take it personally. 29:05 [laughs] Like, it is business. But people- Yeah... it's also a very parasocial business. Yeah. 29:10 So I think it's good because I think, I don't know if you have this relationship with people in your life, like, if you're, you have these friendships with people in the menswear sphere who have been creating their own things, whether it's a blog or a podcast or magazine articles for a long time, so I'm sure they're, like, inured to this too. 29:28 But I feel like I've been able to help other people in my life be less sensitive by simply, like, modeling that, like, um, if you're doing enough stuff and you're always launching stuff- Yeah... 29:41 you don't really have time to, like, dwell on that, um, self-consciousness. And I would do the same thing you did, which is like, I'm very into the idea of having a network. 29:53 Like, if you're already doing one thing, it's really not that much more work to do three. And other people are like, "Why?" Like, "Why are you always launching new newsletters?" 30:01 And I'm like, it's exciting, and it's also not that much more work than what I'm already doing. But it makes a whole that is greater than the sum of its parts, in my opinion. I just love that structure, 30:13 just like I always loved the Conde Nast structure. Mm-hmm. There's something really cool about having multiple things under one umbrella. Um, but if you're doing that, I think it also, like, distributes some of that-... 30:26 feedback, um, just across the- 'Cause it's not time to dwell? Yeah, and it's like a bigger surface area for you to be like, "Okay, well, um, I don't know why you unsubscribed, but- [laughs]... I'm too busy to care." 30:39 And I've really- Yeah... tried to, like, teach other people that mentality. Like, hey, even if you're not as busy as me, like, we were talking about this with Cora Lewis, who just had her first book come out. 30:50 It's this novella called Information Age, which I think you would really like. Um- Sound... because it's infused with some of this being a, a journalist online, um, experience. 31:02 But I was like if you're not embarrassed, like, kind of constantly, like you're not putting yourself out there enough. Mm-hmm. 31:09 Um, like I had, I do some stuff that's embarrassing, like, so often that it doesn't feel embarrassing anymore, just by nature of, like, how much you have to- Can you give an example? [laughs]... expand yourself. 31:20 Um, just, like, all sorts of things. Like, in this particular case it was, like, a typo that I didn't notice for three days. Um, I left, like, a watermark in a graphic the other day. 31:34 Um, I'm always the- That, you, you consider that embarrassing? Well, I guess you don't consider it embarrassing, but at one point you did. Well, it's a mistake, right? It's like- Mm... ooh. You know, 31:44 I also, like, have to cold DM people on LinkedIn a lot. Like, well, I don't have to, but I do. And, uh, and then you have to follow up when they didn't respond, and then you have to wonder- Mm... 31:54 why they didn't respond, and is this girl crazy? Why is she always texting me or, like, messaging me, asking me to- Mm-hmm... get on a call, jump on a call, buy some ads. 32:01 It's like, well, the alternative is don't have a business. Is this thing not existing. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. [sighs] That's heavy truth. [laughs] Uh, do you ever feel embarrassed? Yeah. I fucking hate everything I do. 32:14 Um- [laughs] I do. I mean, it's, I'm, it's why I'm in counseling and therapy. Mm-hmm. Like, I, I have insane, horrendous body image issues. I... Everything I've ever made, I'm like, "Ah, I don't know. 32:26 Like, that's, that's not good enough," or, "Could I make it better?" 32:29 Like, I'm the person, if I, if I didn't have, like, other friends or, like, you know, people that I really trusted on feedback, I don't think I would make anything- Yeah... 32:38 because I would be too focused on trying to make it just good enough. Like, you know- Mm... just a little bit better that I could show it to the world, you know? 32:45 And I think that, I don't know, whatever as people talk, like, w- what is the enemy? That perfection's the enemy of progress or something. Yeah. Yeah. 32:56 And so I think making, just, like, putting it out there, and it's like, okay fine, you can do another one. 33:01 And it also, when you realize that most people that are consuming any of your stuff on the internet, like, don't care as much as you do, and that's not- They're gonna forget they saw it instantly, most likely. Yeah. 33:13 It's not to make you feel bad. Yeah. It's because, look at how you consume stuff on the internet. Mm. You know? 33:18 I mean, I work with a few different brands on, like, advertising, and, you know, they're like, "Hey, we made this, this two-minute reel story of explaining about how we do this and this and this." And I'm like, "Cool. 33:29 We have about one and a half seconds to get someone's attention on that." [laughs] Which really sucks, right? Yeah. Like, that's really depressing. Um, so how do you do that? And what is... 33:41 You know, 'cause, like, no one really cares that much. Sure. Because also- Mm-hmm... the world is on fire. Uh, we're, you know, we're in some very tough political turmoil. 33:51 You know, I'm not even trying to get political, but it's just like- No. [laughs]... it's not fucking great- Yeah... for people out there. Right. 33:55 And so we have to remember that some people, like, they're just trying to get by. They just want- Everyone else is also too self-obsessed to put this much- [laughs]... thought into what you're doing and to think- Yeah... 34:06 for a day about how it's stupid. Only you are, [laughs] are into yourself enough to think that for that long. Yeah. We're tailoring pants- That's the thing... at the end of the world, basically. Well, yeah. Yeah. 34:14 [laughs] And it's like, so just keep going. But I r- I do recognize in that thing, it's like, okay, like, sure, there was a watermark on there. Okay, maybe next time, or you can fix it in post, right? 34:23 Like, but did you write it? Did you care? There you go. Mm. That's, as long as you care about what you're doing, you know. I don't know. 34:30 I, um, my friend the other day was like, "Daisy," um, somebody she works with, she was like, "I don't wanna hurt your feelings, but my friend that I work with, she was like, 'I love Dirt,' but they send too many emails." 34:41 And I was like, "Okay." Like, that- Mm-hmm... yeah, that's, that's valid. That's fair feedback. Sure. Okay. My problem is I'm so concerned that people aren't gonna feel like they're getting their money's worth- Mm... 34:52 that I never feel like I'm doing enough. But then- There it is. [laughs] But then the feedback is, um, "I do not even have time to open all of the emails that you send." 35:02 And it's so, like, the experience of being the creator and the experience of being the consumer can be so far apart, um, depending on what people are looking for. 35:14 And I mean, that's not the type of feedback that hurts my feelings. That's sort of like, okay, well, if I, if I sent fewer emails, that would be, like, a longer strategic, like, conversation with myself, basically. 35:26 Well, this is just about whether an audience is... What is it? Completionist or completist? What was the terminology? 35:31 Oh, yeah, we had this ongoing riff last summer about the difference between completionists and completists, and I honestly don't remember the difference. 35:39 The difference, I think the difference was, like, whether or not you feel like you, like you have to... 35:43 Like, like, my example was, like, growing up playing role-playing video games, it's like if I'm exploring a dungeon, I'm gonna break every vase and, you know, open every chest looking for gold or whatever, and that's, like, a completionist. 35:56 And then the completist was something about, like, I think it was about, like, whatever you have, you've done, accepting that your experience was complete because it, it was the experience you had or something like that. 36:06 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think it was also, like, about relationships too. 36:10 Like- But, but, but for audiences though, like, like, with this, I think there's a thing where you are saying that you need to make all these emails so people get their money's worth. 36:20 I think where I've come as a consumer of, uh, you know, for work I subscribe to so many emails, etc., or newsletters, etc., um, that, like, any money I put towards a given independent media organization is, like, less aboutBecause I want every single email, and more because I wanna support them, and I'm probably not gonna open it. 36:38 I'm probably not, not even gonna open all the free emails, right? But- Yeah... 36:41 or maybe I will because I wanna give them the open rate, and maybe I'll click something 'cause I wanna give them the click rate because I know about that. Mm-hmm. But, uh, it's more about, like, wanting... 36:48 Like, I'm just gonna consume what I wanna consume, and maybe at a certain point I'll stop paying for that thing. I never unsubscribe to... I'm really bad about unsubscribing, though. 36:56 Instead, I just, like, do, you know, mark as unread 50 emails every few hours. Wow. What a thoughtful consumer you are- [laughs]... in the digital era. I mean it. Yeah. That's a... Yeah, it's... 37:10 Well, I think, like, the, the bigger thing, Daisy, it sounds like you're talking about, is that, like, at the end of the day, you're concerned about your value and how that's being measured in the world. Mm-hmm. 37:19 Because, I mean, which, uh, w- that's everyone. I mean, I think that's always my biggest thing, where I'm like, oh, you know, where [laughs] I had, I had one person on, like, one of their exit things in Patreon. 37:31 They wrote, "You know, I'm not supporting American consumers at, right now because of the tariffs." [laughs] What the fuck sharp is that even mean? And I was like, "Okay." Like, "That's cool." 37:43 But in my head I'm always like, man, you know... It, it's funny. During this I... I'm, like, in the middle of talking with two other people right now because Patreon raised their rates- Mm-hmm... 37:54 and other, you know, like, everything just... It just costs more to do stuff. From... Wasn't it, it was like 12%, 13%? What was it? 37:59 I don't know, but it's enough that I looked at, like, what I'm actually, like, taking home. Mm. Yeah. And, uh, I was like, "Oh, shit." I was like, "Okay, it already c-..." 38:09 A- and it's just, like, my free show just costs too much money, um, on, like, distribution and stuff because now, in a good and bad way, because it's, like, a bigger s- type show, even though not as many people... 38:23 Like, when people, like, get podcasts, they'll subscribe to, but they may not listen to every single episode, but they're still downloading it, which still is server cost. 38:29 And I know someone's like, "Well, just go to some free thing." But, like, the cost of everything keeps going up, and I'm like, "Well, fuck." That's awesome. 38:34 "I gotta, like, start raising the prices on this, but what if they run away? What if they don't think I'm worth it anymore?" And then you're just like, "[sighs] " You know, sometimes you're like, "You know what?" 38:43 Which is not the case. Yeah, like, I kinda wish I just had a regular nine to five, but then you'll go hang out with someone who'll be like, "Yo, Kirkland, you have the coolest life, man. It's so cool. 38:54 You get to do this and this." And I'm like, "Yeah. Well, you have awesome health insurance and a 401[k] match." [laughs] Like- That's, like, the difference between Francis and I. That is the difference between us, yes. 39:05 We are, we're in a W-2 gap, um, relationship. [laughs] But yeah, I feel the same way. Like, our payroll was free, and then it was $120 a month, and I was like, "Yeah, I guess that's just what that costs now." 39:16 Like, what am I gonna do, not pay it? It's like when your latte is, like, randomly $8, and you're like, "Okay." Yeah. "Sure. Whatever." Yeah. Um, I will never buy whole- Yeah, I have... 39:25 I carry errors and omissions insurance now, which is- Yeah, I have that. Um- I have insurance... so in case I have someone on, and they're like... 39:32 And it released, and they're like, "Hey, you know, somebody pulled some clip," which is like, yeah, like my show is gonna be the show- Yeah... that gets someone canceled, right? 39:39 But, like, somebody pulled some clip, and now this person, whatever, and now they wanna sue me. It's like, well, I have errors and omissions insurance now, which I have to carry. 39:47 And because I do events, I have, like, sexual harassment liability things and all these, like... Just the cost of doing business to exist. 39:54 And, like, I do events for a couple of these, like, little bit more old school companies- Yeah... and they require, like, proof of me being like, "Hey, if I got hurt at your thing, I have liability insurance. 40:05 I have my own health... You know, and I have to prove it 'cause they're- Yeah... you know, too cheap to, like, deal with me falling down the stairs or something. Like, I don't know what the hell's gonna happen. 40:14 But it's just, like, the cost to exist- Totally... is, is really high. And I think sometimes- It sucks. [laughs]... people are like, "Why do you take yourself so seriously?" 40:21 And it's like, you'd take yourself seriously too if you woke up every day, had a random $200 expense. Like- Yeah... [laughs] for who even knows what. 40:28 Like, I think the joke about living in New York is, like, you walk out the door and $20 flies out of your pocket. Mm-hmm. But, like, the j- if you're a small business owner, it's $200 every day for something. It sucks. 40:38 [laughs] Yeah. Yeah. But, but, you know- It sucks, but, like, it's... I mean, there is the, the psychological component of, like, was I given the message in childhood that this is how I justify my existence? Mm-hmm. 40:48 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But at the same time, it's like, but I'm making something. Mm. I'm making something that means something to me. And sure, like, 40:58 I would love to be the type of person who could be satisfied not making something, but for whatever reason I'm not, and that's okay too. Mm-hmm. 41:08 Um, okay, something I, I wanted to talk about when you're talking about, you know, feeling exposed on the internet and such. Mm-hmm. You recently had Chris from Ven Space on the pod, which- Yeah... 41:17 is a story I really like, and one thing I really like about them is that they have no e-com. Um- Mm-hmm... but I was thinking about that as we're talking about- Are they in Monocle right now? 41:26 I swear to God, I just read an article about them. They probably are. That, that would not be surprising. Um- I'm googling it... but yeah, I, I, I, as... I'm trying to recover from e-commerce generally. 41:35 Like, I've, I've... I'm at the point where, like, I have, as [laughs] I was saying earlier, however much money I've spent on our legacy over the years, like, I, 41:43 I started, like, getting into the, into buying clothes when I lived in, in Portland, Oregon in, in college, and there's one shop there, Francis May. There was Steven Alan too, where I could go to try stuff on. Yeah. 41:52 But I couldn't afford new stuff, so I would buy stuff on Grailed, and so I never had tried it on. Um, so, you know, longtime e-com addict. Uh, but since over, like, the past year or two, I'm like, I live in New York. 42:03 I make enough money now where, like, I can go... Every now and then I can buy something new even. So it's like- Mm-hmm... 42:09 if I can, there's no good reason for me to buy something online that probably closer to 50% of the time than further is not really gonna fit me right, and then I'm not, um, going to, to wear it ever, and then I'm either gonna never... 42:23 It's just gonna sit there, or I'm gonna sell it on Grailed for, like, 60% of what I bought it. Um, I [laughs] rant about my personal shopping habits, but, um, yeah, I just think that Ven Space's move to not do e-com... 42:36 And I know he might do it. Like, maybe he'll bring on just their in-house brand. Yeah. I think it's really admirable.It's-- Well, it's interesting because there was a-- 42:46 With, with the Venn Space thing, which I agree, I think Chris is-- he's on fire. He knows what he's doing. Mm-hmm. He also sells... 42:53 He's a third-party retailer, which is totally fine to do, but I think is probably one of the most difficult things right now. 43:00 Because if you sell a brand, so say for example, okay, A.Presse or Orle, all these brands that are just hot. Well, Orle is sold by a lot of other stores, and Essence put theirs on sale before Joe Schmoe's store, right? 43:16 Mm-hmm. And so if you're a person who just likes Orle, you're probably gonna buy from wherever it's the cheapest. It's a commodity, yeah. You're not gonna be like- Yeah. 43:25 Yeah, you're not like, "Oh, well, you know, I really wanna support Chris," and you're like, "I wanna get these pants because I want them, and I can save, I don't know, $100." 43:37 Um, and so Chris is like, "Look, I'm just not even gonna entertain that." Mm-hmm. And I'm not putting words in his mouth at all. Like that's-- He's like, "This is a small store. It's run by me. I have this stuff. 43:51 If you want it, here it is." And also that means, you know, when stuff comes in, he'll post stuff on his Instagram, and he even told me, and he sh- he shared this on the pod. 44:01 He's like, "Look, like once you're a customer, if there's something here that you want or if there's something-" I'll ship it. Yeah, he's like, "I'll ship it to you, and I'll..." 44:07 But you're gonna pay his price, and he doesn't like-- There's not any sort of like Venn Space markup. It's just like that is the MSRP that's set. Homie's got wild tariffs that he's gotta deal with. 44:18 He's got, you know, all sorts of stuff. And, um, you know, like so I think sometimes... Like I-- He even... What was it? I think it was a, an A.Presse piece that like it came in and I was like, "Dude, that's sick." 44:31 And he's like, "Yeah, it costs this." And I was like- [laughs]... "Okay." And I'm like, "Well..." I was like, "I, I don't have the money right now." I was like, "You know, I might have it at this time." 44:40 And I'm not like asking for layaway. I didn't even ask him to hold it. He's like, "Yeah, dude, it's gonna be gone in a few hours." Mm-hmm. I was like, "Okay." 44:45 But like that's how it works, and that's his lane, and he's crushing it where it's like there's not gonna be, uh, you know, e-com. There's not... You know, you're... It's not... 44:55 You're not gonna put it in your Essence wish list. Yeah. And you're not gonna have a referral link that he'll kick you back, you know, 4% if you start slinging his stuff for him. And I think people really like it. 45:06 But people love, people love small brands and things that like they feel like they're supporting- Mm-hmm... but only to an extent. Mm-hmm. 45:14 Once they are more successful than the consumer, then people are like, "Well, I don't know. You're kinda rich." Yeah. "You may not need it." I think- And that happens, that happens to a lot of people now. Yeah. 45:27 One, one thing about that shop too though is like, so you said something about, um, the, the way you were talking about like, you know, you own Essence and like maybe you're not, you're not caring about supporting the small shop. 45:37 Two things really. One, I think I read this last week, but from this quote from the guy Bob Geldof who put together Live Aid. 45:43 He w- had an interview with The New York Times last week, and this quote, um, he saw music as a platform to do things. Could Live Aid happen today? 45:50 And he says, he's talking about music, but I think this really applies to what we're talking about with the clothes, "I don't think it's possible now. Society has changed. The web is an isolating technology. 45:58 It knows what you are. It drives you. It gives you what it thinks you want, and as you get jaded, it gives you more extreme versions of that. Now music is free, and you get the news that you want to see. 46:07 The web is an echo chamber for your own prejudices, so you only hear the music that it thinks you like." Oof. "It's a silo of the self. So I don't think music can survive being the spine of the culture as it was." 46:16 So I think though that this also really applies to shopping in the way that like I, I haven't been in there for a while, but I went in and I spent like an hour. I was trying on a bunch of stuff. Um- Mm-hmm... 46:26 Axel there, shout out to Axel, we were chatting. The next ti- I came in a few weeks later, he was like, "Hey, Francis. How's it going? Like, how are the shoes?" Or whatever. 46:34 And I, I was just like, wow, like that's, that's amazing. He remembered... And we were... I was here for an hour. I don't... You know, it'd been weeks. 46:40 I'm not sure how many people he's talked to since, but like that is incredible hospitality for me to come in, and he remembers me. 46:46 And that is this like this sense of social responsibility that like the idea of like, oh, I want this, and you know, like, like, uh, I, I'm, I'm no, I'm no saint. 46:57 I've certainly bought my, my, uh, my, my whatever on sale from Essence plenty of times. Um- Sure... 47:03 but I think this like sense of social responsibility of like maybe buying less, but buying it from this place that you want to support. I mean, when I was like in, in college too, I remember- Yeah... 47:15 uh, when I was talking about being in Portland, this store Francis May, I went in there once because there was this pair of shoes I wanted that was on Grailed. 47:21 Uh, I couldn't afford them new, but I went into Francis May, and I tried them on. And- You showroomed them... uh, yeah. The shopkeep too. Sh- I, I forget what I s- I, I think I said- Dirty... 47:29 I was like, "Oh, I, I can't afford to buy these. I'm buying these on, on like used online." [laughs] You told them? I'm just so bold. What an asshole. Wow. Yeah. No. Um, I'm not that much of a little shit anymore. 47:39 Um- Not that much... at least not that way. No. Well, but I think the funny thing is like what you're talking about that you're the most impressed and excited by- Mm-hmm... is like basic customer service- Yeah... 47:51 from, you know, 1950. [laughs] Like, I went into a place and they remembered my name. Yeah. 47:57 And it's like, yeah, every time you log on to the website, it remembers your name, it remembers everything you bought and does that. But what you're interested in is, I think what everyone is, is like, oh, it's a human. 48:07 Mm-hmm. It's another person that has a soul that whether they care about me or not, they-- I believe it. You know? Like they- Mm-hmm... they know that I exist. They're acknowledging me. 48:19 And like that's the bigger thing where it's like, oh, wow, what we really want is just people to care that we're alive and that we're existing. You know, I mean, I... Like if you zoom further and further back- Yeah... 48:28 I mean, that's the thing that's the most exciting is like you were acknowledged in this like big wide world of anonymity and people just giving you things that they think you want and, you know. 48:40 I mean, I love hearing, like going into a store and having a conversation with a personAnd actually hearing about what they like. Mm-hmm. 48:49 Or, you know, even if their style's totally different than mine, or if they like some other brand, where it's like, "Fine, you really like The Row. That's your deal. Great. Good for you." 48:59 But they have all these reasons behind it, and there's all these other things, and I'm like, "Okay," like, "I'm into that." Mm. And you're just not gonna get that online. You're not gonna get that from an AI bot. 49:07 You're not gonna get that from, you know, somebody's fit pics or fit videos because it's a one-sided conversation. They don't acknowledge your physical existence [laughs] in this world. 49:17 And it's like- Talk about a one-sided conversation too, it's like literally a one-sided photo of like- Yeah... it's a 2D photo. Clothing is not, like, this 2D thing. Your body is not this 2D thing, you know? 49:26 It's crazy, and it's like, that's the thing now. It's like, oh man, like, the stuff that people are the most excited and interested by is, like, what your grandparents dealt with when they went to JCPenney or Sears. 49:37 Mm-hmm. Like, if Sears came out right now, and they were like, "Yo, check this out. We're gonna only do catalogs. 49:43 We're not gonna have a website, and if you want, you gotta call on the phone," people would be like, "What the fuck? That's so cool." [laughs] They'd be like, "That's so awesome, man. I love it." Yeah. 49:53 Like, "Get, get this. You just have to call them," you know? It's like a speakeasy. That's why, like... Yeah. Yeah, it is. They're like, "Yo, yo, and sometimes I called, and, like, it was busy. I couldn't even get in." 50:02 Mm-hmm. Like, "Oh yeah, the new thing came out." It's like- There was this article, I forget the name of the restaurant. [laughs] Uh, it's, like, some restaurant in, in Tribeca, I think. 50:09 I remember reading this in The New York Times a year or two ago where, like, they don't do, uh, they don't do ressy or anything. 50:14 It's, like, it's this husband-wife team, and she runs the front of house, and, like, you call, and, like, she writes your name down in the reservation book. [laughs] Yeah. 50:21 Uh, now I just can't get that meme out of my head that's like, "This diner still does Coke the old-fashioned way, 97 years later" or something. But, um... [laughs] Yeah. It's c- it's crazy. 50:29 But, like, yeah, that's, you know, I think that's a thing. But also, you know, like, the, the ease of which something is accessible- Mm... is a luxury. Yeah. 50:39 And so, like, now, you know, it's why people love, like, drops and, like, Supreme and all these things. Like, nobody needed a fucking Supreme locker- Mm... all of a sudden, but the fact that it, it's hard to get 50:50 and there's- Well, it's friction. We talk about this a lot on the podcast- Yeah... is, like, is- Yeah, yeah... is how friction is this, like, social good that people love because, like- Mm... 50:57 life, like, I mean, to zoom out, life is friction, right? It's like, it's, it's just friction until you're born, and then you die, and everything in between is, like, various forms of friction or lack thereof. Mm-hmm. 51:08 And, yeah. It's like the Earth room. It's crazy. [laughs] That, that takes us back to episode one, Daisy. Well, it's, like, this whole perspective that difficulty in, is what makes us prize things. Mm-hmm. 51:19 And so if you have a room full of dirt in Soho, the more expensive the real estate around it becomes, the more precious [laughs] it is in a sense because the more friction it's creating- Mm-hmm... 51:34 with the capital incentives of that property. And, like- Yeah... relationships are the same way, right? Mm. Would you wanna have a frictionless relationship? Uh... 51:45 You wouldn't wanna have a relationship that's all friction. [laughs] It's balance. You need balance. Yeah, I need balance. [laughs] Yeah, you don't want all friction. 51:53 But it is nice to not, you know, get into an argument over cereal. No, and actually- Mm... my husband and I have a bet that they should let you, um, do Polymarket bets on couples', like, low-stakes disagreements. Oh. Oh. 52:07 Like, "Hey, did we actually go to that restaurant in 2023?" [laughs] Oh, my God. [laughs] Um... 52:15 Uh, okay, another thing I wanted to ask about, um, being a, you know, a style guy and living in not New York anymore, how has, how has that changed things for you? 52:26 Do you, do you, like, relish visiting New York and dressing up and, you know, packing? Like, what is your relationship to dressing and going outside? Um, I mean, you've been there for five years now, you said. 52:38 Um, how has that changed? Um, I'm so much happier. [laughs] Like, I, I don't have the stress and the agony of wondering what someone thought about me. And I think some of that I attribute to age- Mm... 52:54 of just, like, you know, I'll be 40 next month, and I'm like, "Okay," like, "maybe I don't need to impress this random person on the C train." Yeah. You know? Like, I don't, I don't even know why I wanted that. 53:05 Yeah, C train never. But... Mm-hmm. Yeah. [laughs] You never need to impress anyone on the C train. But I've gotten lazy, and I think that's the bigger thing, where it's like, there's no runway here. 53:14 You know what I mean? 53:16 So a lot of times, I catch myself and wearing my gym clothes all day because my usual routine is I get up, get the kids ready, get them, get them to wherever they gotta be, and then I go to the gym, try to do something, 53:31 um, you know, which is also pick up my phone between every set like an idiot. Mm-hmm. 53:37 And then, um, you know, I have a phone call or meeting or recording or whatever it is that I gotta do, and then I'm like, "Oh, I actually... 53:44 Not only did I not even shower," like, I didn't even really put anything cool on. [laughs] And I'm like, I've just been wearing Patagonia baggies for, like, five or six days straight. Mm. 53:52 I'm like, that, I can't, I can't do that. Like, that's not acceptable. Well, think about the airflow. If... 53:58 Well, and it's like, if you're gonna also be really into clothes and fashion and all these other things, you, you gotta kinda actually be wearing this stuff, right? Mm. Mm-hmm. Like, so force yourself to get dressed. 54:08 Well, what about- But even th-... you know, uh, Jonathan Anderson, you know, he goes out on the runway after presenting the, his new Dior show, and he's just wearing, like, Levi's and, like, a Uniqlo shirt. 54:17 You could, you could- You could be the Jonathan Anderson of St. Louis But that's still cool. It is, it is cool. That's not gym clothes. That's true. [laughs] You know? 54:22 And also, other times, I've, you know, I'll go, and I'll pick up my kid, and I'll be like, "Hey, I got a good fit on." You know, I'm walking to the pickup line. 54:30 And, and I've said this before, I've had people be like, "Oh-" That's the runway. The runway. Yeah, and the... Yeah, the runway is the pickup line, and it is fucking hot. [laughs] It gets spicy. Oh, my God. 54:39 What are the, I mean, what are the other people wearing? Yeah, walk us through this. What's, what's the, yeah, the looks of St. Louis? There's... So St. Louis is weirdly, like, a super, super old money place, and-... 54:50 specific areas. Mm-hmm. Like, where Karlie Kloss grew up in Ladue- Mm... is, like, very fucking old money. You know, where Derek Blasberg and all those, like, other rich St. Louisans are at. 54:59 Um, like John Hamm taught at, um, I think it was John- John Burroughs, which is, like, one of the nicest prep high schools ever. John Hamm- Yeah... was a teacher? John Hamm. Oh, yeah. He's from St. Louis. What? 55:11 I had no idea. [laughs] Yeah. Um, you know, there's a lot... Yeah, and then you have, like, Elsie or Ellie Kemper- Mm... whose family run this thing called Commerce Bank. So there's a lot of, like, old money there. 55:21 And then you also have this, like, St. Louis is unfortunately one of the, like, case studies of, like, the history of white flight- Mm... 55:29 where you just had all these neighborhoods s- you know, grow because they were scared of African Americans and crime. And like, it's, it's beyond fucked up. Um, it's not something to debate. It's just true. Yeah. 55:40 It's what happened here. 55:42 And so you have these, like, little pockets and these little neighborhoods, but then you had all these Bosnians and Herzegovinians in the Serbia crisis and all that stuff that happened in the '90s. 55:50 Clinton brought all these refugees over. Now you have, like, you know, an, uh, more populations of South Asian. So you have... 55:58 It's like you have Black and Brown and White and all these different people, and they're all kinda stuck together. And where everyone wants to live is, like, West County and the suburbs. 56:07 And so you have people showing up at the pickup line in G-Wagons and Lululemon, and then F-150s and Under Armour, and then you have, like, way too many Teslas and everyone wearing golf clothes. Mm. Mm. 56:22 And so it's like these... They're all very specific lanes of individuals. And then I, I show up and I'm, like, you know, wearing some, like, old vintage thing. What are you pushing? What are the... What's the car? 56:33 Uh- [laughs] Oh, what's my... I have a Kia Telluride. Nice. It's fine. [laughs] It works. It works. It's got CarPlay and a blind spot monitor, and I think I'm a badass in it. 56:42 But it's very much like the kids are in the back and there's Cheetos on the floor. Oh. Mm. I mean, whatever. It just... But yeah, like I'll, you know, wear something and then people will... 56:50 I'll be talking to someone at the playground and, you know, they'll ask me about, like, "And so your wi- or partner?" You know, like, "Oh, you... Maybe you're probably gay-" [laughs] "... based on what you're wearing." 57:00 And it's like a fucking, you know- Ugh... I'm, it's like I'm wearing, like, an MA-1 sh- jacket or here or something. Like, come on, man. 57:08 [laughs] It's, uh, but- Show up in an Adidas tracksuit a couple times and that'll put that to rest. Yeah, but... Yeah, there's, there's some tolerance there and acceptance. Yeah. Where, you know, they didn't... 57:17 Nobody cared. Mm. But they were, like, trying to be respective even though they got it wrong. Uh- That's funny... so yeah, it's kind of a great place. 57:25 But I'll, yeah, I'll f- you know, I'll force myself to wear something and- Yeah... and feel good. And I think it's, it's made my style, like, much more focused. 57:33 Because also having to travel all the time, I'm like, you know, I've just packed the same things. Yeah. It's like old Polo chinos. 57:38 Did you see the tweet that was like, "If you're not using packing cubes in 2025," like something, something? I was like, packing cubes? Like, are you okay? Packing cubes are, are just, like, the biggest farce- Like... 57:48 the travel world ever pulled on, on the entire... Yeah Are you unwell? I've never in my life- Nobody needs a packing cube. No. Like, what are you bringing? I also... 57:56 I don't know about you, Jeremy, like I will not check a bag unless I'm, like, good and truly gonna be gone for more than two weeks. Mm. 58:03 Like, I feel like, I don't know if it's epigenetic, I feel like I should have my carry-on and I need to be ready to flee at any given time. Yep. And- Yep... 58:11 like, if you are packing a big bag, like, you are gonna be left behind by the tribe- [laughs]... in a situation. I don't know what to tell you. 58:17 And when they make me check my carry-on 'cause it's, the overhead bin is full, that is, like- No... stressful. So rude. Um- It's, it's crazy... I don't know. 58:27 I hate when that happens and I'm like, "No, no, no, like this is perfect, you know, IATA whatever code. It fucking fits in the luggage, bro." Yeah. And they're like, "Nah, I don't know. I... 58:38 Yeah, it looks like you gotta check it." [laughs] And you're just like, "No!" I will... And that's the thing, they will... The airline will get me any time. 58:44 At one time they're like, "Well, I don't know, like if you wanna pay to make sure that you can board first, that way you don't have to check it." And I was like, "Wait, I just paid $125- They're gonna store it for you... 58:53 to board first instead of..." Yeah, just to store my carry-on instead of checking it for free, but then having to wait to check. 59:03 Well, the big indignity of checking it, this is my least favorite thing, is when you, when you're at the, the baggage claim and people just gather at the mouth- [laughs]... 59:11 as, as if they are some, some bears at the mouth of the river waiting for the salmon. Mm. They just gather- Yes... at, right at the front of it, right up against- Yeah... the belt. You're supposed... 59:20 You c- You can stand, you can stand near the mouth, but you gotta stand like five to 10 feet back, look, wait for your thing to come by, then you approach, um- You're like, "Oh, there's my fucking suitcase"... 59:31 not right away. Like- [laughs] I, I also, like Francis knows this, like I have a big thing about waiting on lines. I think this is a [laughs] I, I joke this is another epigenetic thing. 59:42 Like, when I'm in a line, I'm like sitting duck target, time to flee. Like, something in my genetic DNA is like, "Do not get on that line again." So- What's your time limit for, like you see- Mm... 59:51 the line and you're like, "Not worth it"? For, for a full stop. If it's a moving line to get into something that I have purchased a ticket for or a line- Mm... 59:57 to get into a restaurant that I have a reservation for, sure. Or like- Okay... to check out somewhere. But the Supreme store... A line to get into a party that I don't have- She's not going to Supreme... 1:00:07 guaranteed entry into- [laughs]... number one indignity. Mm. One time, this was like early on, and I love The Drift, but they always kinda create a line at their party. 1:00:17 They were doing a launch party for their new issue. I rock up, there's a line, and we wait for a couple minutes, and I was like, "No, we gotta go." And I try to do like a Jerry Maguire thing like, "Who's coming with me? 1:00:27 We're going to the tiki bar around the corner." Like, one person comes with me, right? 1:00:30 [laughs] Later, the article is in The New York Times, and it describes the line as like these, like, desperate wannabes trying to get into the party. And I messaged my- Indication... 1:00:40 the only person that had come with me- Yeah... to the bar, and I was like, "That would've been us, but it's not because we weren't in that line." [laughs] Mm. So. Yeah, I, I hate lines too. 1:00:50 I will-But in my head I was like, "I'm too old for this." And it's like, I'm not fucking too old. I just say I'm too old because I also, like, am terrified of the rejection. I went to... Oh, okay. 1:01:03 So we went to, when, when I was at PT WoMo, um, we went to the Issey Miyake show. Mm. And it was me and Gian. And Gian and I are, uh... We're like, "Oh..." 1:01:15 Like, I had just taken the train from Puglia up, so I get to Florence, and he's like, "Hey, the, the Issey show, like, there's a, there's shuttles that leave at, like, 7:30." Oh, God. Uh, and I was like, "Oh, shuttles? 1:01:27 Like, that's lame." I was like, "Oh, look, it's way up in some Medici mansion." I was like, "Yeah, sure, fine." I was like, "Well..." I was like, "I'm a little bit behind. I gotta shower." 1:01:35 I was like, "We'll just take..." And he's like, "No big deal." He's like, "I'll meet you at your hotel. We'll take a car up." "Sure." So we put in the address, we get in the Uber. 1:01:43 Italian dude is like, "Yeah, yeah, I got you." Drives us to the address, air quote, which I thought was the address, and he's like, "It's up there," and he points to up the road. 1:01:54 And Gian and I are like, "Okay, well, the show, the show starts in like 30 minutes, but it's a presentation. It'll be not that big of a deal. Like, it's fine." 1:02:01 We walk up the road, and I was like, "Man, this is kind of a steep hill." And he's like, "Yeah, I'm really tired." [laughs] It's like nine, 98 degrees. We're f- hot as hell. He's like, "Dude, this is..." 1:02:10 He's like, "This is a steep hill." I was like, "Yeah." I was like, "Well, oh, I, I see some people down there. It's good. We got this." 1:02:15 You know, and I'm like dancing, like, just trying to, like, change the mood because I can't stand anyone being un- unhappy. Right. And so I was like, "Okay." I was like, "Oh, dude, look, we got it. We got it. We got it." 1:02:24 We get up there, and there's... It's not the place. Oh, no. You gotta make a left up another hill. And I was like, "Oh, okay. Well, it's fine. Go up the other hill." You know, add another five minutes up there. 1:02:35 I'm like, "It's getting, it's getting dark. Like, we- we've been walking for a while." And I was like, "Oh, look, I see some people in a suit. This is it." [laughs] And Gian's like, "Ah." It's dark. 1:02:43 [laughs] He's like, "This is crazy." He's like, "You know, this is nuts. I can't believe this." And I'm like, "Yeah, yeah." And I'm like, "Don't worry, we're gonna be at the Issey, Issey show. It's gonna be great. 1:02:50 You know, this is why... This is a big show at Pitti." And we go up, we see the people in suits, and it says photographers. And I'm like, "Oh." And Gian's like, "Hey, can we do this? Can we get in?" 1:03:03 And they're like, "No, it's up the hill." And we're like, "We just went up the hill. We just... We've already been up two hills." And he's like, "Can I go through this photographer entrance?" 1:03:11 And they said, "No, it's closed." And now I was like, "Wait, I think they said the show is closed. Did he say the show is closed?" He's like, "No, no, no." And we go up another hill. Meanwhile, there's cars passing us. 1:03:22 Oh, going down. I was like, "This is not ideal." The, the, the road has now gone from paved to gravel. We're continuing to walk up this hill. We start to hear music. And I was like, "This is not good." 1:03:33 I'm like, "Gian, I, I think the show started." He's like, "Oh, no big deal. It'll be fine. It's a presentation." I was like, "Yeah, you're right." I was like, "Man, but we've been walking for 20 minutes now." 1:03:44 From us being out of the cab, I was like, we've walked over a mile. [laughs] Because I got some stupid Oura Ring that's like, "Hey, are you on a walk?" [laughs] And I was like, "Dude, this is not ideal. 1:03:53 This is not good." [laughs] We turn again, and now it feels like we're in a Resident Evil video game 'cause you hear church bells going, and there are birds flying over the he- over your head. Caw, caw. 1:04:02 But you're enclosed in this fucking forest of gravel road with weird tribal music that's playing with some Issey show that we have no idea what's going on, way in the distance. We make our way another hill. 1:04:16 This is not an exaggeration. It's 1.4 miles up the goddamn fucking road. And we get up there, we get ready to walk in, and they go, "You can't come in." And we're like, "What?" 1:04:28 And then this other, like, Inst- this huge, like, Instagram person came in with, like, a gajillion followers, and they're behind us, and they're like, "Wait, we, you can't get in?" And they... 1:04:39 [laughs] And I was like, "No." I was like, "They're not letting anyone in." And Gian's like, "Hey, I..." You know, and I've never seen Gian lose his cool or flex his job. Mm-hmm. Like, he's not, he's just not that guy. 1:04:49 And the other person, they're like, you know, Mr./Mrs. Instagram influencer, million follower is like, goes, "This is the president of Nordstrom." [laughs] It is not. And they're like, "No. No one's getting in. 1:05:02 The show's started." He's like, "I can't let you in." And I was like, "This is super awkward. There's a line forming now. We don't know what to fucking do. I feel like an idiot." And I... 1:05:10 So everyone, of course, pulls out their phones and is like, "Well, I'm gonna text someone." [laughs] Like that's gonna fix everything. Nothing is working. We can't get into the show, and you hear the music. 1:05:19 It's getting louder now. Then all of a sudden you start to hear clapping. And I was like, "Oh, [laughs] it's, it's over. We missed it." 1:05:27 [laughs] And Instagram influencer in the background is losing their mind, being, I would say, like, pretty obnoxious. And, like, and now I'm being, like, a little bit rude. Yeah. And I'm like, "Hey." 1:05:37 I was like, "We do kinda need to get in." This was a sh- Like, the PR people had even sent a thing to my hotel with some special little paintbrush and all these things, and, like, my invite. 1:05:47 And now I'm like, great, like, I just lost all my credibility because now they know I'm not there. They didn't care. Yeah. And I was like, "Oh, no." You know, and so then Gian's like, "Hey, I'm just gonna walk in." 1:05:58 Like, the, this area is open, so we walk through this area. It's like a little presentation thing. 1:06:03 There were some other Japanese people, and they see us, and you could tell they look at each other like, "Do we acknowledge? Do we say something to these people?" We just barrel straight on through. 1:06:10 The clapping's going on. Then we go to this other door, and it's like everything is behind this door. Big old security guard, looks like a Mission Impossible villain, comes out and is like, "Scuzza?" 1:06:20 You know, and you're like, "Oh, man, what are we doing?" [laughs] And he's like, "I gotta get in the show." Instagram influencer's going nuts. 1:06:26 Pull out their phone, and now he's, like, documenting his horrendous- Oh, my God... customer service experience, like he's gonna get someone canceled. And- Unsubscribed. [laughs] Then this Japanese... 1:06:35 Yeah, I know, it's insane. Then this Japanese person comes out, and they're like, "Oh, hey, Gian." Like, "What's going on?" He's like, "Yeah, I was trying to get in the show. The people didn't let me." 1:06:42 They're like, "No, you should've come in." It's like, well, it doesn't matter because they're still clapping outside. Doors open, boom, this beautiful scenic view of the top of the hill at the Medici mansion. 1:06:52 I mean, it's stunning. It's incredible. There's mist everywhere. You see all these colorful Issey Miyake things flying around, but everyone is leaving, and we missed the fucking show. 1:07:01 [gasps] All because didn't really wanna deal with the line. [laughs] So... The lesson is lines good. [laughs] Um, okay. Well, you might have changed my mind about some things. Um, this has been Tasteland. 1:07:13 [laughs] This is Tasteland. Yeah, there you go. We'll see you next week. Ciao. Thank you for that. 1:07:19 [outro music]
