Transcript 0:00 [upbeat music] Welcome back to Tasteland. I am your co-host, Francis Zehrer. And I'm Daisy Alioto. And Daisy, who are we speaking to today? Today we're speaking with Reggie James. 0:16 He's a writer, product architect, and investor. He previously co-founded the company Eternal and recently published a book about contemporary hardware called Hardware twenty-twenty four. Mm-hmm. 0:28 Um, I thought this was a fun conversation. Full disclosure, we already had it. We are recording this intro afterwards. 0:34 Um, Reggie has some really refined and interesting thoughts about spirituality and technology and the way that technol- that spirituality manifests in how people make technology. 0:46 Um, that was something I was really looking forward to speaking with him about and did not disappoint. I agree. I really enjoyed this conversation, and as well as, um, Reggie's post-founder exit glow. Mm-hmm. 0:58 [chuckles] Um, okay, one interesting thing before we get into the conversation. 1:03 I started reading this book last night, new book, new novel, The Fact Checker by Austin Kelly, um, which is about a fact checker in New York City. 1:12 But one thing that I had not seen before, I'm sure this has been on books that I've read. I don't know when they started printing this. 1:18 But on, you know, the-- one of the, the first pages, the copyright page and such, um, they say, "Any use of this publication to train generative artificial intelligence, uh, quote unquote 'AI' technologies is expressly prohibited. 1:35 The author and publisher reserve all rights to license uses of this work for generative AI training and development of machine learning language models." 1:43 Um, I don't know if this is just the, the boiler plate- the boiler plate. Um, the publisher was Grove Atlantic, Atlantic Monthly Press. But, yeah, it was the first time I'd seen it. Have you seen that before? Mm-mm. Hmm. 1:54 Oh yeah, I have. You have? [chuckles] But not in a book that I bought. Oh, okay. Sorry. Not in a book that you bought. I've seen photos of it online. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 2:07 [upbeat music] Okay, you recently published a book, Hardware twenty-twenty four. Uh, what's... H-Have you bought any of this twenty-twenty four hardware? Any-- What's your favorite piece of hardware from the last year? 2:22 I think my favorite piece of hardware, hmm, it's probably a toss-up between the USB-C hub transport- Mm-hmm... which is really special. I mean, I DJ, and I collect files. Hmm. 2:39 And so, um, it's full terabyte solid-state drive, so I'm not really concerned about files getting messed up. And then do you know this spot downtown, um, called Vowels? 2:52 It's like a Japanese store, but they have this archive library where you can, like, book an appointment, and the founder brought all of these, like, vintage books and zines from Japan. Hmm. 3:02 And you can, like, scan pages and then just take them with you. 3:05 So sometimes if I'm digging for a reference, I'll like take my USB down there, scan some stuff, and then bring it back and talk with Luca about it- Mm-hmm... you know, in our Figma. 3:16 The other one I actually have right here is the Teenage Engineering TP-7, which- I was gonna ask if you'd bought this. It's very cool. Well, it... I, I was gifted it. I- Oh, you were gifted? Yeah. Okay. 3:27 [chuckles] I could not spend like fifteen hundred on just a voice recorder. [chuckles] 'Cause it's like- Respectfully... you can get like the Zoom Recorder one for like seventy dollars. Right. 3:35 And then this one's fifteen. [chuckles] Yeah. It's so slick, though. But it's really beautiful. It's a really gorgeous weight. Um, yeah, those are the two- Looks like a Dieter Rams, right? 3:44 S- I mean, it has that energy, definitely with, um- I got to explain Dieter to my husband a couple weeks ago. Whoa. Yeah, he didn't-- He wasn't up... It's okay. 3:53 He doesn't have a design background, but my friend had given me this dead stock Braun travel alarm clock- Okay... and-- that she found in her stuff. 4:02 And it, you know, it's not an expensive piece, but it's actually kinda hard to get now- Mm-hmm... 'cause I just think they don't sell it anymore. And so I was like, "Do you know what Braun is?" [laughs] Like... 4:12 Do you, do you use the voice recorder? Like, will you, like, go on a walk and, like, record some notes or something, or...? So I had a phase of doing that. That was fun. 4:20 I actually find it- I'm gonna bike up behind you and just snatch it [chuckles] while you're doing that. Shh, that'd be sick. [chuckles] I-So I, I used to do that. I kinda got scared of that. 4:29 And then, [chuckles] and then- Bonked... yeah, just bonk on the head from some design guy. Um- I don't even want your ledger. Keep the ledger, bro. [laughs] The security, the security around the personal devices. 4:41 This ledger in the book? No. They're not a twenty-twenty four brand, I guess. Right. I think it's like-- I think the stocks was twenty-twenty three. Mm-hmm. Um, I find-- I think it's most fun at, like, parties. Hmm. 4:53 Like, passing it around and people leaving voice notes and seeing- Mm-hmm... how unhinged they get. [chuckles] Like, I think 4:59 one of my favorite ones was, um, like, Eric Adams did nothing wrong, and we should re-elect him. That was-- That's a good one. 5:06 Um- Reggie, I heard you give an even hotter take at the Blackbird popup, but I don't know if you wanna get into it today. [chuckles] Was it about Jan six? It was. [laughs] That actually, I stole- January sixth... 5:18 I, I stole that from a friend who left it on the voice recorder. I was like, "Oh, this is my take now." Which is basically like, if you really- Mm-hmm... 5:24 believe that the government, you know, is corrupt, like you deeply believe that to be true, then Jan six is a sort of logical response. It's the rational response- Yeah, it's a rational response... to perceived tyranny. 5:36 Yeah. Yeah. Um- That makes sense, honestly. Right. See? Yeah. See? 5:40 [chuckles] Well, you know, now that, like, Kareem has sort of like run through everyone in New York, I think they're gonna have to have all of us on, and- [laughs]... 5:48 whoever goes, whoever goes on first gets to use the January sixth take. [laughs] Yeah. I just wanna get on that New, uh, the New York mag cover. Oh. Whenever they do the part two of that. Oh, yeah, yeah. 5:59 Where it's like a hundred people, and they're all walking. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've, I've failed. And as a New Yorker, I don't get that. Adam Faye took your spot despite not being from New York. 6:06 [chuckles] Yeah.That this is Los Angeles ass. [laughs] Um, wait. Okay, also on the book, though, you... It's kind of anchored by an interview with Jasper- Mm-hmm... the founder of Teenage Engineering, correct? Yeah. 6:19 Yeah. Not to, you know, spill everything behind the paywall of, of, of buying- [laughs]... your book, but can you tell us a little bit about that conversation? Yeah, that conversation was really special. 6:29 So, you know, it... He's not necessarily known for being out in public like that in terms of, like, recorded interviews. 6:36 Um, so and I, I can always tell when I wanna do something if I feel really shameless about asking favors, and so I just asked for, like, 20 favors to get to the team. Mm. 6:48 And then his, his right-hand guy, or one of his right-hand guys, Emil, who I've now, you know, been fortunate, fortunate enough to become friends with, he sort of did, like, a pre-screening interview with me, and then he was like, "Okay, Jasper is either gonna be in San Francisco or LA in this month, so just stay, like, flexible." 7:07 Stay mobile. Yeah, stay mobile. Stay on your toes. And, um, he ended up being in San Francisco. He gets off a flight from Tokyo. I meet him at his hotel. 7:17 He's, like, dropping laundry off at the front desk, [laughs] and he's like, "Yeah, do you, like, want to get a beer or something?" 7:23 [laughs] And it's, it's 2:00 PM in San Francisco, and I'm just like, "Dog, there are no bars that are open at this time right now." And we end up at this, like, really shitty dive bar in downtown SF. 7:34 Basically the only guys in there. They're, like, blaring rock music, and we just kind of pound beers for, like, three hours, and so the interview gets, like, progressively looser and more fun. 7:46 Um, and by the end he's talking about, like, Silicon Valley as, like, a Vatican and it's... it gets very fun. Um- Are you... Wait, real quick. Are you recording this interview on the Teenage Engineering? No, no, no. 7:59 That was my gift after they- Oh, okay... they confirmed I wasn't a weirdo. That's so nice. That's nice. Yeah, I can... I, I recorded it on my phone. Um, San Francisco. You've had a... You, you've been tweeting about it. 8:09 You just got back, obviously. Mm-hmm. Uh, this... You had this one tweet, "San Francisco is the most contemporary city in America." Mm-hmm. Interpret that as you will. 8:16 You also tweeted about how it's a light wash denim city. [laughs] Um, also interesting. But, um, yeah, I, I haven't been to San Francisco in a long... 8:24 I'm from Northern California, but, like, far further north of that, and I haven't been to San Francisco in, uh, maybe a decade. Whoa. Give us the scene report. 8:33 That's crazy, 'cause I would assume San Francisco is black Levi's, but I think that these programmers just have too many Cheeto crumbs on their hands to be doing that. Daisy, that's such, like, a 2009 take. 8:45 [laughs] No, I would say it's a contemporary take- I would not... in the same way that San Francisco is a contemporary city. That's good. That's really good. Well, let's hear it from Reggie. What's the... 8:54 Can you give us, tell us- Yeah, what's the Cheeto dust count? Yeah, what is the Cheeto dust count? Or Cheeto grass count. [laughs] I would say there's about a 10% spread on Cheeto dust in the city. 9:02 [laughs] Um, so on, on the contemporary city thing, I think when I... Whenever I think about the word contemporary, I think about it as, like, a slight... Uh, like, history is very low on that value scale, you know? Mm. 9:16 It's like, I think San Francis- San Francisco is a city that, like, every six months you go back, it feels very different. Mm. It feels like the meta has changed. Even, like... 9:27 Also probably because, like, the startup boom and bust nature, like, where, where offices are keeps shifting. Like, the people with the most stable offices are just, like, VCs, you know? Mm. 9:36 Everyone else is kind of, like, moving about. They're either scaling up or scaling down, or they just got bought. Um, 9:43 so I think that permeates throughout not only the architecture, but the people, the people that feel im- important at any given time. Um, that feels like it's just really... 9:55 It's always sliding, which makes it feel very contemporary to me. Whereas I think New York, there's, like, some stable characters. The architecture itself is quite stable. 10:05 Even if, like, oh, new cafe or whatever, it's like, odds are it looks and feels like something that already is around there. Mm-hmm. Um, 10:13 in terms of, like, the light wash denim, it was just, like, I was l- [laughs] I was having a glass of wine just looking out at the s- at the street, and I just felt like I saw, like, 20 people in the same exact light wash denim, and I was so confused. 10:27 And so I tweeted it, because I, I don't think that happened- What about the shoes? What were they wearing shoe-wise? Uh, they're always just kind of wearing, like, On Running or- Mm... you know, the... Yeah. 10:37 They're just wearing, like, running sneakers. It doesn't matter who it is or what they're actually doing. Um, I will say my hot take on SF is that all their romantic issues are just a skill issue. Mm. 10:48 There are plenty of, like, beautiful, smart, dope women walking around that city. They're all just, like, touch deprived, and the men there aren't... They're not doing anything about it. 10:59 You know, they're just, like, I don't know, Whoop maxing or something. Oh, my God. Sleep score maxing. It's rough. Too many wearables. 11:07 Um- Too many wearables telling them, giving them too many inputs on what they're doing right and wrong, you know? [laughs] Mm-hmm. I've never been to San Francisco. Not once? 11:15 And now it feels like a bit to just keep not going, yeah. See, my bit, my bit is currently, like, almost every time I land, I'm, like, landing in the best city in the world. That's my bit. 11:25 [laughs] Which, you know, for some people, it is the best city in the world. Have you ever lived there for, like, a... Longer than, like, a month? No. I've gotten pretty close to a month. Mm-hmm. 11:36 Like, I've done, like, three weeks I think. Um, but no. And I don't, I don't think I have to, nor do I intend to. Someone would have to, like, pay me some ridiculous amount of money. 11:47 To, to- That's what they do there, I hear. [laughs] I... Yeah, if... Listen, if Zuck is like- [laughs]... "Hey, asshole, here's 100 million. You're coming to the Bay Area," I'd be like, "Yes, daddy." Mm. 11:57 "Yes, daddy Zuck." So it was not Zuck who acquired Eternal is what I'm hearing. I know who it was. No, it was not. [laughs] Da- Daisy. Daisy knows. But I'm not telling. I'm not telling. Not on the mic. 12:08 Um-So you were just at FWB Fest. Yes. Scene report. Um, how did you get there, since we're talking about transportation? This is just a transportation podcast. Yeah, so- Um, best talk, best performance. 12:22 E- these are all so easy. [laughs] Okay. Pop down from SF. Okay. So that flight, if you... Well, you've never been to SF, so you don't know it. 12:29 But [laughs] the San Francisco to LA flight is, like, you go up and then you just start coming back down. It's just so quick. Um, we got a, like [clears throat] convertible Jeep. Mm. 12:41 So me, Sean Yatu, and Norm just sort of ripped this convertible Jeep across California to get to... from LA to Idyllwild, which was really lovely. Just good. Yeah, it's quite the drive. 12:54 Quite the drive, but it's very dudes rock. You know- Yeah... on that drive. It's very dudes rock. Well, last year, like, our driver was, like, watching YouTube videos on... while he was taking the, uh- Terrifying... 13:06 the turns, the, like, hairpin turns. Your driver? So- You took an Uber from LA to- It was, uh-... that three-hour, three-hour drive... it was a black car. Oh, okay. Well, I was speaking, so they sent a car- Yeah... 13:14 for, like, everyone arriving together. But, um, so that was, like, less dudes rock. The Jeep convertible sounds a lot cooler. Yeah, yeah. The... very dudes rock. Um, and then it... Do you know the Cathedral folks in LA? 13:27 They're doing, like, music patronage. They took over the library, and so that's where I was speaking in. And then I did the Dialectic Live podcast with Jackson in the main auditorium. I would say 13:40 Fest this year felt a lot more music centric than, like, idea centric. Typically, I would say it's nearly 50/50- Mm-hmm... and, like, the nerds take over the auditorium, and then what have you. 13:51 But this felt like almost [clears throat] 80/20, like, music people over- Mm... like, the nerds, which was interesting. My favorite talk, I would say was Nick Soucy. Mm. Friend of the pod. Friend of the pod, I'm sure. 14:08 Uh, really, really incredible. It was, like, cinematic. 14:12 Um, him and his wife created these visuals and sh- and she did all of this audio, um, just, like, music, sound scoring, and it was just, like, full cinematic experience. I have, uh- I felt it in my heart. 14:29 I have one of the papers he made- Yes... for it. Let's go. Yeah. Yeah. Did you go to that as a birthday party, Francis? Yeah. Yeah, you... Yeah, where were you? [laughs] Um, well, I had a mouse situation in my home. 14:43 It's crazy. Like- What else is new? The mouse... You know, like, that clip where, um, Michael Jordan's like, "And I took that personally"? [laughs] A few weeks ago, exterminator comes. 14:52 I say, "I haven't seen the mouse in a year." Next day, mouse. Mouse. [laughs] He took it personally. So I... Ben was gone the day of Nick's party, and I was, like, home. Like, I was doing, like, Lowe's trips. 15:06 You were at Home Depot. Yeah, yeah. But then I got like, I got like- I know, because you tweet- you were tweeting about this. [laughs] I got three texts being like- [laughs]... "Are you going to Nick's party?" 15:14 I was like, the Dirtyverse Demimonde is real. [laughs] Because you, you got pulled into it through me. Mm-hmm. But Josh Zorner, also now in the extended Nick Soucy- I didn't see it... 15:27 universe, um, well he, he also wasn't able to go. Um, and then Natasha also texted me. [laughs] But anyway, that's... I think it's funny. I don't know if you saw this, Reggie. Like, somebody on LinkedIn did... 15:40 like, mapped out Emily Sundberg's influence and, like, visualized- I mean, he did it to Tai Hini also this week. Oh, right. Funny. [laughs] To IB. Pod guests. Right. Well, it visualized it, and Dirt was its own cluster. 15:53 Ooh. I know. I like, I like that. You have to own your own cinematic universe, or else you're part of someone else's. I think it's everyone who contributed to the notes book at this point. Like, it's- Yeah... 16:03 that's a pretty good proxy for- Well, because it wa- I think it was measured through, like, tags and, and mentions on Twitter, right? Yeah. Mm. So that's a heavy volume of, of tags and mentions. Yeah. 16:12 Yeah, see, this becomes like, this shows like the importance of actually producing artifacts. You know, like, when you can produce an artifact, this is kind of how I feel about, like, the hardware book. 16:21 Like, when you can, like, stake something in the ground, you can actually lay claim to some sort of land space. Mm-hmm. Even if it's just, like, one acre of land, at least it's your land. 16:32 And I think New York sometimes can represent sort of like... Apartment culture to me is sort of like at culture. You know, you're just, like, at each other's apartments all day- Mm... 16:41 but no one really owns the land, and it's just like you gotta, you gotta figure out land ownership in some dimension. 16:49 Yeah, other than the boomer wealth transfer, millennials can only own land through producing coffee table books. [laughs] This is- Apartment culture versus hardcover book culture. Yeah, exactly. 17:00 Okay, but my hot take on this is I think the only reason... I'm, I'm sort of like a cusper, so, like, zillennials, millennials, what have you- Okay... are not owning land or like property- Are you 27? I just turned 30. 17:15 Okay. I'm a 90, I'm a 95 baby. Okay, yeah. Um, I, okay, I did, I did wanna find a way to transition into talking about, uh, secutech- Oh, sure... versus spiritual technology. 17:26 This is something I've, I've read your writing on this, um, and I don't fully grasp it. Mm. 17:31 I would love for you to explain a little bit, what's the difference between a secular technology framework versus spiritual technology- Mm... 17:38 um, and why you think that religion is, like, maybe a m- a more effective axis for this than, say, like, capitalism versus socialism or something like that. Sure, sure. Yeah, I think, um, 17:52 I'll try to give, like, the most linear version of this. I was sort of looking at, like, the past 20 years of, like, what I, what I would say is, like, the popular notion of technology construction, right? 18:05 Um, which is like, when you say technology to someone, what do they think about? Like, they're not thinking about, like, vaccines or anything. They're thinking about, like, software, SaaS, whatever. 18:12 Yeah.And to me, it all felt deeply postmodernist, right? Like, just deeply ingrained in the values of postmodernism. Some of those values include, like, crisis of representation. 18:24 And I was like, "Okay, what software represents crisis of representation?" And I was like, "Okay, social media is such a clean pairing with that." Mm-hmm. 18:31 And then started just trying to connect these lines of, like, what are postmodernist values and what are products that represent that, and it all felt incredibly, like, the past 20 years of software production, some hardware production. 18:45 But so then I was looking at that, and I'm part of this, like, working [chuckles] friend think group, um, of, like, Dauda Leonard, Elon Rutberg, Freddy Anzures, and we just call it spiritual technology. 19:00 And [clears throat] 19:02 the idea was just like, okay, well, if we look at current tech as, like, this sort of postmodernist lens, one layer above that is just that it's broadly secular philosophies that guide all of these thoughts, right? 19:15 Like, no one is really out there putting a vision together of, like, reform theological technology or, like, Kabbalah technology, you know? [chuckles] Like, no one, no one is, like, doing that. 19:31 And so we just made this really cl- because everyone has different spiritual practices, we just made this really clean line of, like, secular technology versus spiritual technology. 19:40 And so secular technology is just, like, broad philosophical frameworks, and then spiritual technology would be rooted in some historic spiritual practice that- Mm... 19:50 outdates all these philosophies, right, 'cause philosophy kind of moves, like, through trend lines, um, like art movements. Mm. So that was... Like, that was that initial split. 20:01 So n- I, I'm Presbyterian, so I've been spending a lot of my time on just, like, a reformed theological view of what to both critique and look at current sets of technology, but also, like, what could be interesting new technologies. 20:17 I actually think the people that do this the most right now are Catholics. Um, like, the Vatican released a super long letter on AI that's- Yeah... genuinely really interesting. 20:28 You know, they have, like, the Hallow app, which I think is, like, the most popular, like, Catholic app. What is, what is Hallow? It's, like, mini s- it's, like, video feeds of mini sermonet- sermonettes. 20:40 Sorry, my Pogano's accent came out. Mini sermonettes. [chuckles] Um, there's sort of, like, daily prayer, daily Bible verses. I think there's a Bible within it. Um- Yeah... 20:51 maybe you could put, like, prayer requests through it. It's just, like, a lot of Catholic traditions wrapped in- Religious practice in an app. Exactly. 20:58 There should be a Tinder for, like, Bible verses where you're like, "I'm vibing with this one." [chuckles] I'm 100% sure there is. Oh, I, I could, I could vibe code that today. That would be fun. [laughs] Um, 21:09 actually the worst thing about, like, using- Bibler. Yeah. [laughs] I'm sure that's taken. Um, that's definitely taken. [chuckles] Also way too close to Diddler. Um, [chuckles] 21:18 I think the worst part of, like, using a Bible app is when the thing comes up and it's just like, "Are you enjoying the Bible app?" And you're like, "Yes." And then it's just like, "Can you rate us in the app store?" 21:26 [laughs] And I'm just like, "Oh, man." I can't- Oh, my God... I can't do that. [chuckles] That's, that's not close to godliness at all. It's not close to godl- [laughs] Yeah. 21:33 Listen, retention metrics are not close to godliness. [laughs] Um- Oh, my God... s- so anyway, so anyway, just on to continue on the secular tech versus spiritual tech. So that's sort of the, how that basis came about. 21:47 Elon has this, like, really ginormous deck that looks at sort of, like, historical spiritual technologies, which he includes, like, the rosary or- Mm... um, I think in Jewish culture it's called tefillin. Um- Mm-hmm. 22:01 When you- The fringes? Yes. Yeah. You know, I... Sometimes I sit here when I'm podcast. I call this the podcaster's rosary, the, uh, the headphones. Yes. Anyway. Yes. It's really- [chuckles] No, that's real. 22:11 You're just sort of going down your idea chain of- I, actually, no... [chuckles] of loops. Uh, sorry to interrupt, but yeah. [chuckles] Yeah. I use mine as an abacus. That's a good one. 22:19 I'm like, "How much runway do I have left?" [laughs] Uh, anyways, but yeah, the rosary, tefillin- Yeah... as technologies. 22:27 Um, so, so we've been sort of, like, collecting a bunch of these thoughts and ideas, um, in this, like, informal working group. I gave a talk at Hereticon, um, last fall on this idea. Uh, okay. 22:42 I don't wanna interrupt the thought, but I'm like, why, why isn't Hereticon the Aspen for young people that build things? I also don't know what this is. And, like, do they think that they are? [chuckles] Um, okay. 22:55 Well, for, for those that might not know, Hereticon is the Mike Solana founded Founders Fund throne, like, kind of like secret conference that happens in Miami. Yeah, it's just, like, a slate of speakers. 23:10 Like, Palmer Luckey will speak. Peter will speak. Um, who are some other folks? Emmett Shear spoke this past year. His speech was great. Um, and then it's, like, attended by, like, David Holtz and Grimes and, um, 23:27 uh, what's the, what's the monarchist dude's name? Monarchist? That's, that's not Yarvin. Yeah, no, Yarvin. Yarvin. Yeah. Oh, Yarvin. Curtis, like, Yar- Curtis Yarvin. 23:37 So it's, like, a very funky cast of characters, but then it'll also just be, like, Founders Fund founders, like, um- Mm... like Eric from Ramp will be there. Mm-hmm. Mm. You know, and, or, um, who's the Rostra founder? 23:50 Um, what's her name? Lulu? She's like the CEO. Oh, Lulu. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it, it, it's, you know, it's not like all edge lords or anything like that, but it's, you know, there will definitely- Yeah... 24:01 be, like, Curtis Yarvin next to, like- Edge lord adjacent... me. Yeah. Exactly. [chuckles] Yeah. Edge lords and edge cases. Edge lords and edge cases, yeah. Um, but it's actually quite fun. 24:11 I think what's funny is, you know, the first Hereticon-Was like right when Florida was like, "Okay, enough of this COVID nonsense." Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 24:21 And a lot of states weren't like that, and so it felt like this very edgy thing to do. I mean, worth noting that, like, most people crawled back to New York with their tail between their legs- Super... after that. 24:33 [laughs] Super. COVID exodus. [laughs] Super. And you know, it's like Taylor Lorenz being like, "This is so, you know, unsafe. I can't believe this," and you know, it, it was just like, it was really fun. 24:45 I really loved it. At the end of the day, it's not about where you pay taxes, it's about where you can go to Metrograph- Yes. [laughs]... at 3:00 PM on a Thursday. [laughs] Yeah. 24:55 Nobody's leaving the city when Zoron wins. Zoron's New York. Yeah. I'm mostly okay with that. In many ways we're already living in it. Yeah. We're already living in it. Yeah. 25:04 How, like, I, I feel like we've been- I'm saving my Zoron Tasteland invite. Um, I don't know, Reggie, if you know, I, like, went to school with him, and, um- [laughs] I did not know this... 25:15 my mom's like, my mom's like, "I have a great idea. You should interview him," and I was like- [laughs]... "Mom-" Wow, great idea, Mom. [laughs]... I'm not pulling that card now. 25:22 Like, I'm gunning for Cryptozar in this Zoron administration. Uh-huh. [laughs] Like, and you all are gonna really regret some of the things that you said to me when I am Cryptozar in the Zoron administration. Mm-hmm. 25:33 Because- [laughs] That's gonna be sick. [laughs] Like, if he, if you want a socialist person who's crypto literate, it's me, David Phelps- [laughs]... 25:42 or Austin Roby, or Austin Roby, and o- only one of us, uh, went to the same college, so I'm pulling rank. [laughs] That's good. That's really good. Oh, man. Uh, anyways, where were we? 25:55 W- was, we're still on sec- Um, we actually really did-... spiritual versus secular theme... we interrupted- [laughs]... a really important conversation [laughs] actually. No, no, no. 26:01 We're, I think we were exactly in line. 26:04 But yeah, the, the first Hereticon was like, I, I generally do think it was super, um, interesting and edgy, and, like, this thing of just like, okay, like, if we're, if we're talking about exercising our freedoms to this degree, like, fucking show up and do it. 26:18 Mm. And a lot of people did do it, and that pissed some people off. I was really happy to be involved. Um, I was very inspired by it, you know, speaking freely. 26:27 The second one, uh, but I think one funny thing there was, like, Biden had won already. Mm-hmm. Um, yeah. Biden had just won, basically. Was it pre or post January 6th? [laughs] Post. Yeah. Yeah, post January 6th. 26:44 And so there was, so there was a really funny tension in the air of just, like, of this exercising of freedom, which I really, really liked. This one was right before the election, this most recent election. Mm. 26:58 And it kind of felt like a pre-celebratory victory lap. Like, everyone knew what was going to happen, um, but I think because of that it just didn't feel edgy. Like, I, I didn't feel her... 27:09 Like, the heretical thing to do there would be to be, like, a very clear white guys for Kamala T-shirt wearing person, you know? Mm-hmm. And that was not the vibe. And so it felt very victory lap-y. 27:23 The ideas were still interesting for the most part. Um, like, I can't, yeah. I don't, I don't wanna s- say too many of them, but, like, 27:33 the ideas were so interesting, but it just felt like a victory lap, which I think changed the vibe s- like, a little bit. Yeah. 27:40 I also think, my hot take, is that the tech right and the religious right cannot coexist, and the tech right- 100%... trying to get in bed with the religious right will actually be the end of the tech right. Um, 27:54 and, like, I don't think the tech right will have real political power for a very long time, but their entrenched social power will all shift to AI and AI integration into everything. Mm. 28:08 I think, I think you're right about the tech right and the religious right not being very compatible. I do think that the tech right isn't going anywhere, um, like, sort of influence wise. 28:20 Um, I think some people will sort of, like, fade out. I also think there's a good chunk of, like, tech right people that 28:29 are really just doing this to accumulate sort of, like, further personal power, and they'll switch up when needed. 28:37 Um, I think this is sort of, like, just sort of legitimacy laundering in order to, like, set up their next play. Mm-hmm. Um, and I, yeah, I think, and so I think there's, there's something there. 28:48 I also think the only thing a lot of these tech right people even believe in is technology itself. They don't really have political ideals, you know? 28:56 They, they view themselves as somewhat post-political, and that's why they were so willing to shift to the right for this upcoming era. Um, and I also think Trump kind of sees through that. 29:07 Like, I think Trump is very just like, like, if, if Elon couldn't, like, flex his desires on Trump, like, you know, this, some random ass doge kid is not going to. So- Mm-hmm... 29:21 there's, there's something, there's something funny there to break down. Yeah. I also think, like, some people are just maybe a little unwell. [laughs] Maybe- Oh, that's deeply true... 29:34 maybe, well, definitely spiritually unwell. Yeah. [laughs] I don't know, like, I think Silicon Valley has really lost touch with any relationship to spiritual wellness that it had. 29:44 Like, 'cause there was this sort of, like, Ayahuasca- Mm-hmm... 29:48 era where, like, spiritual wellness meant, like, experimenting with drugs, and higher thinking, and tapping into creativity, and, like, that led to some cool stuff. It led to some really, like, not cool stuff. 30:02 But- But that's the thing. Like, their, even their version of any, of spirituality is simply an ingredient for further personal efficiency. 'Cause they want immortality. Yeah. 30:14 You know, and it's just like they, yeah, their goals are actually not spiritual. It's, like, efficiency to code for, like, 10 hours straight, or to prompt, you know, Cursor for 10 hours straight. Mm-hmm. 30:23 And that's not-That's not spirituality at the end of the day. It's just like a broader, you know, Brian Johnson style, like, health goal. Mm-hmm. 30:35 And I think, I think a core sense of spirituality, and I'm not, I'm not even saying this from, like, a Christian framework, is just, like, it's a relinquishing of authority. But that's not what's happening here. 30:45 Like, the last thing these people ever will do is relinquish authority, both on a systemic level or on a, you know, a personal, like, how they live their life level. Um- But I think, like, 30:58 from my perspective as somebody who does consider themselves spiritual, if you sacrifice all of your values to make the tools that can create what essentially will become contemporary cults, you 31:16 are in the cult of the self. You are in the cult- Mm-hmm... of money at all costs. And so you might see yourself as the cult leader because you're at the center of the, the machine, 31:32 you know, creating technology that's going to have such influence on people that we'll probably see, like, new QAnon style religions. Like, let a thousand QAnons bloom, right? Exciting times. 31:43 But you actually are the most captured- Right... because, [clears throat] you know, you, you've betrayed and destroyed yourself for nothing. I, I think this is what's interesting about the whole, like, Jeff Lewis thing. 31:56 Like, in that one post, he talks about, like, being one of the earliest OpenAI investors, and he's also clearly one-- been one-shotted by ChatGPT psychosis, you know? It's like- Oh, this is that guy where he- Oh, yeah. 32:11 That's so sad. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know? And I think- Yeah, that guy's, like, literally unwell, not spiritually unwell. Yeah. 32:16 No, no, he, he has fully sort of tuned in- But the number of people, like, taking him seriously because they're like... 32:23 they're just been trained to, like, try to find a rationale in anything somebody that they see as having, like, proximity to capital is saying. It's like- Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm... 32:34 if a poor person is going through psychosis online, like, your, your response would be so different from, like, when a wealthy person... It's like people are doing, like, liner notes. 32:43 Like, people were legitimately, like, trying to interpret what he was saying, and it's like he's, he's not saying anything. Like, he's in psychosis. Yeah. I- yeah. I mean, I do-- for off the air, I do think 32:56 I understand what else is happening, but I do, I do agree with you. There's sort of this, like, 33:03 because of his capital position, folks are willing to engage in, like, s- s- some, like, weird deconstruction period, which is just like, "No, check him in. Che-check him in." 33:15 [chuckles] Well, I mean, this is kinda like that Vanity Fair article y- you-- that you were quoted in from March about Christianity in, into the country. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. 33:24 Where the, the subtitle of it, of it, I wrote it down, the subtitle is like, uh, "There are people that are leveraging Christianity to cl- to get closer to Peter Thiel." Yeah. 33:31 Which is just what, what you're talking about, Daisy, just, like, doing anything to get closer to and acquire capital. Yeah. Yeah, 100%. I mean, a really interesting one is also, like, um, um... Oh, God. 33:47 Now, now I'm blanking on the story. But yeah, I, I think, I think, like, one- 100% true. Well, one-- okay. 33:52 The, the thing, uh, I was thinking about as I was preparing for this and, and thinking about tech and religion, um, is [chuckles] the-- my favorite line from Conclave, where Ralph Fiennes' character is doing a speech and he says, "Our faith is a living thing precisely because it walks hand in hand with doubt." 34:09 Mm-hmm. "If there was only certainty and no doubt, there would be no mystery and therefore no need for faith. 34:14 Let us pray that God will grant us a pope who doubts, and let Him grant us a pope who sins and asks for forgiveness and who carries on." 34:22 So I thought of that in the context of, like, I think that is so descriptive of founder culture in, in, in the tech world and in Silicon Valley, in, in entrepreneurship, in this era of entrepreneurship where it is so, like, individual faith-based. 34:35 Every, you know, statistically, nearly every startup fails- Mm-hmm... and so you have to have this kind of unfounded faith. Um, though the, within that too, it's like, what is the level of doubt? I don't know. 34:48 Or, like, as a, as a founder, you have to inspire this faith in your employees- Yeah... at an early stage startup, at any stage startup. Like, 'cause it's always, it's always doomed to fail 35:00 except for what you do to bring it forward. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's, it's so f- one, that was my favorite part in Conclave as well. I was talking about this with a friend who, um, recently, 35:16 like, left the company and, you know, it was, like, a mix of, "I think I need to leave," and then getting fired, and it was just, like, a mutual understanding it wasn't working, right? Yeah. 35:25 And I was talking to them and I was saying, "You know, the number one thing I genuinely love about technology is also its most Christian thing, which is that, like, 35:37 failing upward is actually sort of, like, structurally built in." Mm-hmm. Like, in Christianity, you sin every single day, and yet God picks you up and still promotes you into, like, His love and His holiness. 35:50 [clears throat] And in tech, it's like the, the faith element of this whole system is, like, believing [chuckles] that- Yeah... even if I go out... 35:59 If I leave the most secure thing I have and I go out and try to take a big swing, if I fail, I still will actually be rewarded for showing, like, this general, like, sense of contribution to the overarching project. 36:11 Mm-hmm. And I think that's, like, one of the most important things that technology has going for itself, and would be a real shame if we lost it. 36:20 I also think this is what's hap- why people are so feeling such a type of way about, like, the whole, like, kind of windsurf and all these new acquisition formats happening because it feels like a break in that-Social structure, I have a lot of opinions there, but I think the, the most important thing is, like, the faith is in, like, technology industry's set of unique social protocols and knowing that, like, 36:45 obviously you shouldn't just go out and intentionally fail upward. That's lame, and people do do that. But I do think, like, if you put in 36:53 the true, true work, and you make that decently public, and you share that with people, you will get rewarded for the attempt if you are talented, right? Mm-hmm. 37:02 Obviously, if you're not talented, that's a separate issue. But- I do think, though, it's who can afford to be a tech disciple in an economy that is not working for the common man? 37:17 Like, you could say you could have a, like, prosperity gospel mentality of, like, well, that just... it just filters for the people with the most faith because they're leaving up the most security. 37:27 But I personally, and, like, obviously you might disagree, have never understood this perspective that, like, [lip smack] 37:36 Scandinavia, the welfare state of Scandinavia is anti-innovation because people are not driven enough. I do really feel like I have this, like, American Protestant work ethic. Mm-hmm. 37:51 But I also think there's a point of precarity at which, like, people become nihilistic and demotivated. Mm-hmm. And I think for a lot of people, the line is healthcare security- Mm-hmm... 38:03 um, and security around having children. 38:06 And so I just wonder, like, has America gone so far in the direction of pro-innovation that we've basically become that, like, that airplane with the bullet holes diorama where it's like, "America is so great because, like, we've never given people total security in these parts of life," or it's like actually, like, you could find, like, one hundred of the next greatest founders if they knew that they were not one hospital bill away from being bankrupt. 38:37 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, I don't know. I feel very strongly about that. Um, but I definitely am in the minority in that as well. Yeah. That's funny. I, I mean, I deeply agree, um, with the need for universal healthcare. 38:54 I think... I don't, I don't know if I've ever applied it to that's the thing holding back great founders. Um, I'd wanna sit with that more. Uh, I, I... but I do see the argument. I think, I, I think that at the core 39:13 of sort of this belief to me is something I was actually talking about with Jackson Doll, which is like, I do think one mistake is that we view sort of, um... 39:25 we kind of tie instant gratification culture along with our professional culture, particularly in technology. And I think I'm pretty sensitive to, like, the multi-generational view. Like, you know, my... 39:36 Both of my parents grew up extremely poor in New York. My mom's the youngest of seven, my dad's the oldest of eight, and my, you know, my dad learned a trade, right? Plumbing. Mm-hmm. Which then moved us to the Poconos. 39:46 And the goal, their, their very clear and express goal, and grateful- you know, I'm grateful that my dad enjoyed plumbing, but, like, they wanted to set up their kids to take whatever swim they wanted to, right? 39:57 And I think, uh, in very different ways but, you know, in a really core sense, like, all three of their kids have done that slash are doing that. And, you know, 40:10 I think I have, like, a very similar view, which is just like, I just want my kids to be able to, like, take a swing, and that comes with a sense of security. Yeah. 40:18 I guess, I guess it becomes, like, this question of authority of, like, does the s- how much security does the state have to provide? I think America is struggling with a general state, 40:29 like a lack of state capacity even for, like, basic things like this, which is very frustrating, I think, to all of us, um, particularly when we compare it to, like, our, quote, "rival" now, China. Yeah. 40:41 I'm, like, trying to work through this in real time. I, I do think, though, that it's actually maybe more of a legibility issue. 40:49 I think there's a lot of people that complain that, like, Silicon Valley isn't, like, legible enough, but I just don't think that's true. Like, the... all of YouTube is right there for your consumption. 40:58 Open the YC, like, YouTube page and fricking go through all of the years of startup school that they have recorded since, like, I don't know, 2013 or t- maybe earlier than that, maybe, like, 2011. 41:11 Like, these, these things are actually not mysteries, and I think you really can sort of, like, walk in and do things. But I don't know. 41:19 I think, well, o- one, one thing I'd, I'd say here is, like, like, the, um, let's say the private capital, venture capital form of, like, providing these opportunities versus maybe, like, a works progress administration, a private versus public way of, like, providing these opportunities. 41:36 I think that's, that's kind of a compelling access for the argument, to the argument for me is, like, the private capital one is, like, any innovation or, 41:47 or, you know, whatever, the founder culture, et cetera, like, ends up going back into the majority of that value often ends up going back into private capital. 41:54 Whereas something when capital was more publicly owned, right? Then, like, you're, you're building roads, you're building- But that's not, that's not completely true, right? 42:01 Because, like, a lot of these are, like, a lot of LPs are pension funds. A lot of, like- Mm-hmm... 42:07 I think Mount Sinai Hospitals is, like, a major LP into a lot of these major firms, and so these are actually going to, like, really core research institutions, hospital systems, teachers' pensions. Mm-hmm. 42:20 So, like, when these things fail, obviously it is a small financial mix of their overall financial system, but it is... there is a direct relationship there. 42:29 I, I will say the thing that I do agree with you on is the-Other side of this, which is essentially something I would argue for is, like, a sense of creative direction for the country, right? Like- Yeah... 42:39 what are the expressed missions? 42:41 So in, in China, um, for a good period of time, there was, uh, the, the centralized party gave a certain allowance to, like, these-- the regional administration of these parties, and they just, like, wrote checks based off of priorities of the centralized party. 42:59 And so if, like, that was roads, like, if you had a roads company, even if it was bullshit, you can, like, apply for, like, this funding, and, like, you went off and did that project. 43:09 And what-- while a lot of it failed, there were, like, some really big successes that- Mm... kinda paid for a good chunk of it. 43:17 Um, but at minimum, there was actually just kind of, like, a lot of, like, groundwork set up. And this is kinda also how you get, like, housing developments with, like, no one in it and, like, all these things. 43:26 Like, there's a lot of funny flaws to that system. But what it did do was create a really direct line on a regional level of, like, this is the priority of the government. Who can fill that priority with, like- Mm-hmm... 43:38 their business? And even if we're spinning up that business in real time to achieve that, um, I would love to see more of that. I mean, it doesn't help when we have, like, the fricking budget deficit that we have. 43:49 But [chuckles] I would love to see- Yeah... more of that public, uh, yeah, that public energy. One, one hacky way into this, though, that I have a friend doing is, you know, 44:02 there's all sorts of, like, design projects that the government needs. So maybe that's- Mm... like uniforms for the New York Sanitation Department, right? Like, maybe that has to get updated. 44:13 My friend, who's a, he's a fashion designer, applies for these funding 'cause they-- it all comes with budget. So he'll apply- Yeah... with, like, designs. 44:22 Sometimes he wins them, and it'll be, like, $500,000, and he gets to design this uniform, which obviously goes both into his portfolio, helps him build relationships with manufacturers, all on government spending- Mm... 44:34 and is doing a service for, like, the city- For sure... or, like, whatever. Yeah. So it's really-- there's so many of these things out here. 44:40 I just think, again, it becomes this sort of, like, mimetic desire question of, like, if your only mimetic desire is private asset venture capital, you will see the world through such a narrow lens. But if you're... 44:52 I was, what was it? I said this the other day. I was like, "There's people that wanna make clients happy, and there's people that wanna make the work itself happy," you know? Yeah. 44:58 So if you focus-- if your client is VC, then you're always going to, like, sort of stream up to that. If your- Yeah... 45:03 if your client is the work itself and that's what you center yourself around, you can actually look out and be like, "Oh, let me try to do this project for, like, the New York City, you know, Sanitation Department." 45:13 And, like, I think that's structurally more interesting. I agree. Um, like, I would love to design a trash can for New York. I think that would be really, really fun. 45:22 So I'm gonna-- I wanna reference one more of, uh, the last of your tweets that I saved for reference. [chuckles] Oh, no. Um, this is from, like, three weeks ago. You said... 45:29 It, it's very relevant to what you're saying now. 45:30 You said, uh, "Have you been-- have been thinking about how to break out of venture timelines in order to have the tolerance for longer and more stable quests, particularly for speculative design research and play. 45:40 Very inspired by what endowments seem to allow for universities and other institutions." And you were kind of asking for leads or writing. Mm-hmm. Um, did you, did you receive leads and writing that, uh- Yeah... 45:51 that furthered your thinking? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Definitely. Um, I actually met up with a few people. 45:57 I think, you know, one of the [chuckles] one of the best ways to break out of these timelines is just, like, who's, like, a rich person that wants to see certain ideas manifested in the world, and they are not worried about a return? 46:10 Um, [tsking] I think, like... Yeah, I, I think that's [chuckles] it's a really lame answer, but it is a real one. Um, I, I also think we see this in, like, media, right? 46:21 Like, I don't know, I don't know the full financial history of, like, the free press. But, like, that clearly was inspired by just a desire for a type of media organization. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 46:31 I think there's, you know, I think there's a, a handful of these that some are more interesting th-than others, but it's really just, like, an idea production center, right? 46:40 Um, so I think, yeah, I think in a really similar way, um, I also started looking at how the MIT Media Lab came together, which was basically a consortium of, like, eight Japanese electronics companies that were curious about what was coming next in technology, and it was like, "Let's fund this MIT Media Lab." 47:02 The only non-Japanese corporation that helped fund it actually was Apple. Mm. 47:06 Um, and that became the financial basis of the Media Lab, and then I think MIT ran the endowment because they already kinda had their giant endowment, and so they were able to make the carve-out, and that's what funded the MIT Media Lab- Yeah... 47:20 um, and all the research that happened there, at least initially. And then the history gets complicated because Epstein starts funneling a lot of money into the MIT Media Lab. Right. Um, [inhales] anyway, um. 47:33 [laughs] It's, it's funny, my mom, my mom's been really supportive of me having my own company, and I actually think she really gets it on a deep level. Mm-hmm. 47:41 Like, I think on a different timeline, my mom really could have been an entrepreneur. And, um, like, 47:50 I was talking to her, and I was like, "I don't want you to be worried about me because my life has been so unstable the past couple of years because I have this startup." 47:59 And she said, "Oh, I don't worry about you because I know that having a startup is a lifestyle choice." And I was like, "That is true." Like, I- Hard... 48:07 I don't even find that offensive because it's like that is absolutely true. Yeah. 48:11 If peop-people who have startups also have the ability to do something else, and thus to live in that uncertainty and doubt and faith is a lifestyle choice. Mm-hmm. I think what 48:23 I have been pondering, to my point earlier, is, like, who can afford to make that lifestyle choice? Mm-hmm. And are the people who can afford it the smartest, best, brightest people? Um- Right... 48:35 and I don't-- and I really, truly believe that, like, merit, merit doesDoes rise to the top in a lot of cases, but I also think, like, 48:46 when it comes to people's health or their ability to start a family, it's a net good for society for people not to have to choose between the two. Oh, for sure. 48:54 I mean, this is something, like, my wife and I have been talking about a bunch 'cause I have, like... I think I know what my next company is, but I also know, like, we wanna have kids soon. Mm-hmm. 49:05 [chuckles] And so she, she was really just like, "Reggie, please, like, maybe just take two, three years-" Take a job for a few years. Yeah. Yeah. 49:11 [laughs] Two, three years break, and like, also, like, you know, recharge and blah, blah, blah. And yeah, I... So I, I deeply, I deeply agree with you. 49:19 I think- Do you think you could go back to working for somebody else? Yes. Okay. 49:24 'Cause I think, because I think a part of, like, the past six months now has also been sort of really understanding what being a founder was for me- Mm... 49:35 and what it, and what it became, and also what made me unhappy in it, and what made me really happy in it. 49:40 And I think really taking the time to deconstruct that, sort of like ego-strip myself, was really important, which not only got me excited about building a company again, but actually made me also excited about finding other people that I could 100% work for and enjoy, and blah, blah, blah. 49:59 Um- Can you... Wait, can you say more on that? Like, what, what did it mean to you to be a founder? What was... Can you, uh, unpack some of what you unpacked? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I have a giant Obsidian doc on this. 50:10 I think, I, I think when you, when you talk to any founder, the time that they're most nostalgic for is when it's, like, either just them or them and their co-founder, right? And it's really just about the work. 50:24 They have at least what was true for some, to varying degrees, right? Mm. But I had no money. Um, I also didn't really have responsibilities. My co-founder had no money. 50:34 You know, we were really living off of, like, $4, like, egg and cheese sandwiches. [chuckles] And, and possibility. And possibility. We were just eating possibility. [laughs] The Soylent of startups. [laughs] And, um, 50:47 and, um, you know, every-everything was about the work. Everything was about the idea. And that's what got us to, you know, like, our first round or whatever. 50:57 And I remember really distinctly, and I think the system also kinda works against you in this way, that, like, when you're heating up, the system wants to try to superheat you, and I think resisting that is something that every young person needs to, like, internalize. 51:12 Like, do not let the system heat you up, like, too much, because I think what happened was 51:19 we had, like, two products go pretty viral, and we felt really good, and then the system was heating us up because of the virality, but then, like, the retention and reality was cooling us down, and then we didn't really know which to, like, pattern match to. 51:35 Um, and the thing about venture also is that it's actually easier to fund people who already have, like, all of the wheels greased, so it's, like, team's in place, they have money in the bank, they have a product out. 51:47 It's easier to give them more money and hope that they figure it out than to cold start somewhere else. 51:52 So the machine will actually, for a little bit, definitely during Zurb, like, help to just kind of p- keep pushing that forward if your comps are correct, right? 52:01 And so if you're building, like, consumer software, the comps are just, like, sort of, like, infinite money glitch, right, because the consumer software things that work really work. So then [laughs] 52:12 the thing that happens there is sort of, like, this weird sort of status laundering where, like, you have, like, the really nice Series A, but the thing isn't working where you have to kinda keep up this weird appearance of just, like, it's... 52:24 Everything is always so close to clicking, right? And that's a really weird cognitive dissonance to live in. And- Well, that's the, that's where the faith, the founder faith thing comes in, right? 52:34 Yes, but it's, like, actively conflicting with, like, your current and inflating status, and I think that's what comes- It's hard to have faith if you're, like, overfed. Exactly. Exactly. 52:43 And I think that's, that's, like, something that I experience. 52:47 And then what becomes doubly weird, and was definitely the eternal story, was, like, the brand and the media through, like, our show Exit Sign and some other things, were, like, really working. 52:57 Like, we went from zero to 200,000 followers in a year. 53:01 And so you had something that was really working, but then the thing that was giving you, like, the tech, like, valuation multiple was there, but wasn't working out the same way. 53:10 And so then you're like, "Oh, do we become a media company that has a shot, or do we try to retain being a tech company that is really, like, chewing glass?" 53:19 And that, that also kind of doubled, like, this feeling of sort of, like, status laundering. Mm. Um, and so yeah, that, that was sort of, like, the spiritual reality. 53:28 I mean, I could get into, like, taking on bad advice and stuff, um, 'cause I think there's a lot there as well. But, um, yeah, I think that... I, I also think when the... 53:42 When Bryce Roberts talks about this a lot, like, when the, when part of the game is raising money, like, you know that there's things that gets you more money. 53:51 Like, building out a fully fleshed team helps to get you more money, but it also is burning that same money, and I think this is what we're s- what we saw- And it might not be the exact correct step you're supposed to take, but you just take it because that's how you get more money. 54:03 Yeah, and it, and it helps with, like, all these other sort of, like, pieces of the progress stack, right? Mm-hmm. 54:09 And I think this is also what we're seeing with, like, this Windsurf, um, acquisition where, like, the reality is they needed to scale up. 54:17 However, like, they probably couldn't hire the best, best people, but they had to, like, fill these, like, middle jobs, and now in this acquisition... 54:27 Which, what's funny about acquisitions, right, is, like, most acquisitions involve the team, half of the team getting shed. But 54:35 te- like, no one talks about acquisitions publicly, and because this acquisition is so public, people really got emotional aboutthe team getting shut in a specific way. 54:45 And, and then when the, I think, Cognition came and, like, took the rest of the team in, people really applauded it. 54:51 But now Cognition is giving all of these people, like, the opportunity to receive really generous severance packages, but severance packages nonetheless. 54:58 And it's because the fact is, like, they overhired, and that's, like, a very classic startup story, and the fact that people don't wanna p- yeah. 55:07 The other part about faith, just to bring it back to that, is, like, part of having faith is also knowing that when I admit I did something wrong, there will be forgiveness. Mm. 55:17 But because capitalism is unforgiving, like, people really don't wanna admit that. And now people are having this weird cognitive dissonance episode in, in public- Mm... because the fact is they overhired. 55:30 The acquiring company has to also reckon with that, and their reckoning is with the bottom line, which is unforgiving. 55:36 But it doesn't square away with the original story that they were doing the right thing by taking on this team. 55:43 And I don't wanna say it's hilarious because these are people's, like, financial safety and, like, healthcare. We can abstract it briefly. Like, these are real people. 55:49 But I do think what is funny is sort of, like, this cognitive dissonance that you st- tech people should know, you know? And I don't know why they're doing the... 55:59 I mean, maybe it's literally just for Twitter clout, but it's a funny tension. Cool. Well, [laughs] this, this has been Taste Led. This was a good one. Thank you guys. Thank you so much, RJ. This was awesome. 56:09 I apologize for the, for the beeping in the background. Do not. Oh, please. Do not. New York. Don't dare apologize. All right. Don't, don't do apologize for the city. 56:18 [outro music]
