Transcript 0:00 [upbeat music] Welcome back to Tasteland. I am your co-host, Francis Zehrer. And I'm Daisy Alioto. And- You did a little millennial pause there. [chuckles] I... Okay. Well, Tom is gonna edit out the millennial pause. Um, 0:18 there was no millennial pause. Millennial pause boyfriend, Gen Z stair girlfriend. [chuckles] Millennial, the millennial generation never existed. It's a myth. It's a myth. Uh, who are we speaking to today, Daisy? 0:28 Today, we're talking with Sam Valenti. 0:31 He's the founder and leader of Ghostly International, which is a collective that grew from a boutique music label known for experimental pop and techno to an internationally recognized platform for the world, for the work of the world's best visual artists, designers, technologists, and musicians, um, which I think is a fancy way of saying they have the absolute best merch. 0:53 Mm-hmm. Um, they had this Enya hat that I think just said Orinoco Flow on it that's perpetually sold out. They did a Mythi collab, which was very cute. The store itself, like I was, was going through the- Yeah... 1:03 online store earlier, is really good. Um, I, I wasn't as, so much aware of the merch aspect. When I was in college, in particular, Ghostly was a really important label to me, um, but I hadn't dug into their, their, um, 1:16 other purchasables since the music. Yeah. Um, they have one band, um, that I'm really excited about called Crushed. I don't know if you're a fan. I'm unfamiliar. Okay. 1:30 They had a song, I think it was a song or EP, called Coil that came out last year- Mm... and I think they have new music either out or forthcoming. But 1:39 I don't, m- I don't even know how I'd describe that particular genre, but I think Sam and I overlap in a lot of the hyperpop territory. Mm-hmm. Hyperpop, what is this, 2020? Excuse you. Uh, I'm excused. 1:55 Um- [laughs] While we wait for him, one thing I wanna talk about, I finally read Train Dreams by Denis Johnson a couple nights ago, or on, on Sunday night. It had been much hyped. 2:06 You know, I'd seen it- Much hyped on this very podcast... on this very podcast. I- I'm happy to say it lives up to the hype. 2:14 I know, I know [chuckles] our hundreds, nay, thousands of listeners have been waiting for me to say that. [laughs] It lives, it lives up to the hype. It was, it was so good. Um, I don't know. 2:23 I feel there's, like, obviously so many angles, but one thing I've been thinking about 2:27 in, more in the context of what we typically talk about on the podcast is, like, it really made me feel, like, how, like, the smallness of, of, like, time in, in the way that, like, the guy's born in like 1886, I think, the, the main character, and dies in, in the '60s. 2:44 Sounds like ignofiction to me. [laughs] Well, uh, well, okay. Well, we can get to that. But, um- [laughs]... 2:48 but no, just like how, I don't know, like, in, in a time of such rapid technological innovation, development, et cetera, like, this guy who, like, was born before... Who had, who never used a telephone. 3:01 Like, that's, that's one line. Like, he never used a telephone- All that and under 200 pages, right?... in all his 80 years. It's like 100... It's like a hun- yeah, it's like 120 pages or something like that. 3:09 But, but, um, yeah, it kinda made me realize, like, it's all gonna be okay. Like, we're all gonna die. [laughs] Dude, [chuckles] I have this realization, like, once a day. Mm-hmm. It's sort of working for me. Uh, okay. 3:23 Ignofiction, that was what the term was? I read the, I read the thing. Mm-hmm, the thing. We should have Greta back on. We should have Greta back on. That'd be lovely. 3:31 She's the rising S- Susan Sontag as somebody called her out today. Mm-hmm. I just saw that tweet, and you are a, a rising libertarian hack. Dude, I can't. I... Whatever. Ignofiction, though. Anyways, ignofiction. 3:42 For the listener who has- [laughs]... not read the piece, um... Listener, come on. You gotta, you gotta, you gotta keep up. What is that, ignofiction? 3:51 It's more something you're supposed to read in your head voice than try to say. Which I, which I did. I did yesterday- Had it, I did it in our prior-... and now [laughs] we're talking about it. 3:59 Um, is the successor to autofiction. Yeah, so she's positing basically, like, there's just... Autofiction was about knowing and reporting everything in real time- Mm... 4:12 or a curation of everything that you've observed, as we sort of talked about on the episode with Cora Lewis. Mm-hmm. Famously has the word information [chuckles] in the title of her novella. 4:22 Um, and so, like, Greta's positing that, like, now it's information overload, sort of post-AI- Wait, wait, wait. Is... The, the, the term is info fiction? Igno. Like ignorance. Ig- igno, okay. That's what I thought. 4:36 So the succession to autofiction has to embrace the unknowable- Yeah... rather than feel like a realistic reportage of a certain person's consciousness. Mm. 4:49 It should represent the reality, which is, like, we are all deluged with too much information, and there, there should be, like, an absence in what is observable. Yeah, that makes sense. Cutting it. 5:02 I also did put perfection on the, uh, graphic for the piece. I, I did see that, and, and as I was reading through, I was like, "This n- Wait, there's no mention, no mention of [chuckles] perfection?" Whatever. 5:13 It was, it was off stage. They should, uh, never give an exclusive- You haven't even read it yet... to a girl like me, Chris, uh, Canva Pro. What? Then did... You haven't even read it, have you? You don't know that. 5:22 Oh, wow. Something about your tone implies that. Um, anyways- I haven't read it, yeah... let's talk to Sam. But I feel like I have. You have. You've lived it. I lived perfection every day of my life, Francis. Shut up. 5:32 Shut up. Uh, okay, Sam, here we go. [upbeat music] I wanna say, to start, um- Mm-hmm... I, uh, I was reading... I forget which one it was. 5:46 I was reading some interview with you in preparation for this, and there was some comment about, uh, like, E- EDM and when EDM was getting big in, in America, you know, maybe 15, 20 to 15 years ago now. 5:59 Um, and I wanna say, you, you made some comment about, like, maybe it'll be a rising tide lifts all boats-Situation. 6:06 Uh, and I wanna say it was for me in that I was in high school from 2008 to 2012, and so that's like- Mm-hmm... you know, rural northern California. This is 2010. 6:16 I'm a, I'm a junior in high school, and like Skrillex, Scary Monsters and Nice Sprites come out, c- came out. Perfect. And so that's what was really- One-shotted. Yeah, one-shotted me. 6:23 That was really the culture- Mm-hmm... of, you know, of my high school. 6:26 And then when I get to college, um, I, I remember I w- I was having a conversation with one friend who was from LA, and so was exposed to more music than me. He was a big Flying Lotus guy, et cetera. 6:38 Uh, and I, I remember saying to him... I've always kind of been given to hyperbole. 6:41 I remember saying to him, I was like, "I think Mad Decent is probably, um, the most important label, uh, in the world right now," and he kinda laughed at me. 6:49 Um, but I bring this up a- as, as a way to transition to like around that same time, another friend who was from Oakland got me into various Ghostly artists. 6:58 I remember like when he showed me, uh, You by Gold Panda for the first time. That also one-shotted me but into, you know, maybe a, a, a better dimension. 7:08 Um, and so- It would be a guy from Oakland who's the Ghostly guy... it, it would be a guy from Oakland, yeah. Yeah. Uh, uh, himself obviously addicted to, uh, to Ableton. Um, but I hadn't lis- I was... 7:19 This morning I was like, as I was preparing for this, I was listening to like that, the, um, the Shigeto album. What is it? No Better Time Than Now. Mm-hmm. Um, a lot of music I hadn't listened to in like 10, 10 years. 7:31 Um, and so I'm feeling really, I'm feeling really good. It was really, it was really nice to revisit some of these. That's awesome. Yeah, I love the, um, origin stories. We all have to find our way into the- [laughs]... 7:44 adult version of ourselves. Out of, out of bass nectar? Yeah. And like, yeah, I mean, there's no... And I... And to be honest, like the stuff I was... 7:54 that got me over the line was the electronica was like kind of EDM 1.0 as far as marketing. Mm-hmm. So it was like Chemical Brothers, Daft Punk's first record, and that was on majors. 8:05 You know, that's the reason- Mm-hmm... it hit the record stores. And so those were like, you know, still pretty great records, but that was the Skrillex of the time and then you like base level up. 8:15 But I like the friend who like beat you down a little bit. Like I have a, I have a post in me someday, maybe it's a d- a dirt piece if Vice will allow it. Um, I call, I call them cultural beat downs- Hmm... 8:28 where you need, um, somebody to kind of like... 8:31 It's, I think it's like unpopular now, 'cause obviously it's like everything is cool and like good stuff, bad stuff- Let people enjoy things You're not allowed to be a critic. Yeah. Let people enjoy things, right. 8:40 And then the David Marks reply is, "Well, if you let every... If you just let people enjoy things, then enthusiasts don't have anything to enjoy." Mm-hmm. You're kind of depriving 8:51 people of pleasure by making everything great. Is that... That's the way I understood- Everything baseline... his take. Mm-hmm. And so like for me it was record store clerks. 9:00 You know, obviously pre-digital it's like go to the counter sheepishly with your stack, and they're like, "No." 9:06 [laughs] And I, and like that, I remember there's a story about, uh, like the, uh, DJ Jackmaster who, who passed away I think last year. Okay. And RIP. 9:14 And, um, he was working at a Scottish record store called Rub-a-Dub, which is like almost more Detroit than Detroit. And he like... They were getting the promos in, and he was like, "Oh, I want the Daft Punk one." 9:25 It was nothing wrong with Daft Punk, but, you know, this to them that's like Abba. Like it- Yeah. Whatever. Mm-hmm. It's just like not... Don't, don't even look at it. 9:32 [laughs] And Barry apparently broke the record over his knee- [laughs]... and was like... 9:37 And he gave him a Directia record as like, you know, a, a, a deep classic Detroit electro record, and was like, "This is the path." You know, kind of like you need people in your life to... 9:47 And whether it's food or coffee or wine or- To be opinionated. Right. And with com- with, with the bona fides, who's actually have done the work, you know? Mm-hmm. 9:55 And I know that's a lot of what you guys talk about, but I don't... It's an unpopular topic, 'cause it sounds elitist, right? But I d- I hopefully have better taste because of those people. Or I learned about taste 10:10 in a moment of anxiety, you know, which helped. Sam, what's the best thing about being back in New York? It's cliché, but I, I do like, like hitting the street and walking and- That is cliché. 10:22 Come up with something else. Okay, Daniel Arnold. [laughs] I know. Sorry. Yeah. I just love the, I love the streets. Um- He's a funner. It's fine. Yeah. What's great? Um, I don't... 10:34 I, I think my, um, my like n- coastal... 'Cause I, I lived there for a minute in like 2010 where it was still a little verboten to move from... Like it was like, "Why would you move to LA, you like loser?" 10:46 It was like s- That's how I felt at the time. I was like embarrassed to tell people, 'cause it was still like becoming the LA of now. 10:53 Um, and I was more, I was probably more cagey myself, and so I felt like, "Why is thing, why do things take so long? Blah, blah, blah." Like, you know- [laughs]... pretend New Yorker energy. 11:04 And then now I'm just like, oh, it's great. If you can, if you like let it wash over you, LA is like incredible, you know? You just take it at it for what it is. But I don't think they're comparable anymore to me. 11:18 Um, on the topic of, of, of criticism somewhat as we were speaking about a minute ago, uh, I read your interview from last year with Last Donut of the Night. 11:28 Um, there was a, there was a few things I actually really liked in there that I wanna talk about, but one, one thing in the context of fandom. You say, um, you, you joke that Herb Sundays is like a prayer for fandom. 11:37 "I'm paying my fan tax. Being a fan is, especially now, competitive and athletic. To be a fan of Star Wars, you have to watch every movie and all these TV shows. I don't feel like a fan of much. 11:47 I'm not really a true gamer. I used to be a comic book kid. I was a baseball card kid. Music's the only lane that I still feel, but even so you realize how little your fandom..." 11:56 I, I feel like what you're talking about there is like, like i- in the context of like not being able to criticize things, it's like you can't, you can't criticize things, but you have to like have this, I'm, I mean, fanatic commitment to a thing to, to have, like, to, to seem validBut, but, but once you're, once you're that committed, it's like so you can't critique it once you're that deep in the fandom? 12:20 I don't know. It's a great point, yeah. I, I just feel like the other AP classes kept... I keep... Everything's an AP class now. [laughs] And it's like 12:30 you either come in so noob and you just follow the leader, which is fine. And I think, I think film is, like, really accelerated obviously. Mm-hmm. 12:38 And, like, film knowledge, it seems like there's a general level of knowledge of film that feels more 12:44 universal or more, like, there's more interest in it or like- But is that just because we all have access to Letterboxd and you can quickly look up who was in that one and this director also did these films? 12:53 And I th- it's, like, a medium that suits... I don't, yeah, I don't know. It probably is a confluence of a lot of things, right? 13:00 It's, like, also, like, a, something to talk about and, like, something that we can sh- there is enough, like, base level stuff, and, like, the rise of the indie studio of now. Mm-hmm. Reminds you of, like, '90s when 13:12 indie studios were, like, were like record labels. I don't... Like, I, I think of there's no record label now that's as cool as A24 or fill in the blank, you know? It's like your Neon or whatever. I... 13:26 The, the cultural, like, what moves the culture. Maybe Rockstar Games was the- Yeah... the last great, like, brand. A, a... I wanna hear Daisy's take on this. Um, or publishers. I know, like, you, you tell, like, a... 13:39 Who's the one who's really sort of driving right now? The publishers trying to kind of become the cultural, um... It's not Harper Collins, but, um- FSG. Maybe that's... Yeah, probably. It just feels like there's- Mm. 13:50 They hired that guy, and there was, like, the New York Mag article about him. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. It's like how do you... And this is like Dirt Thesis 101, so I'll probably step in it. But, um, 14:02 it, it just seems like the... And it's interesting 'cause these are, like, time intensive things. Everyone's like, "Oh, no one has, no one has time," but, like, film and books are actually super time intensive. 14:11 So I don't buy the, like, we have no attention span thing, or maybe it's we're, we're reading and watching at the same time. But it seems like culture, like, there actually is a lot of appetite for, like, good stuff that 14:25 is encouraging. Yeah. I don't know where I, where I went with that, but... Or what the question was. 14:31 Um, no, I mean, one, one, one thing I was thinking about the, as you were saying that, was in, in terms of like, you know, you said A24 as, like, you know, being seen as this record label. 14:40 I think the con- that conversation always goes two ways, where you get the people who are just kind of like, "Oh, another... 14:45 It's gonna be another certified A24 classic," and then you see the people on Twitter maybe saying, like, "You realize that this is just a production company and they just... 14:54 This is, like, a, a very capitalized company that just funds these things, and isn't, like- Right... directing these, et cetera. 15:02 Like, the production choices they're making are not, like, the creative choices you may think. 15:05 And so maybe because, like, compared to, like, a true independent record label, like, there's so much more money in it, and that corrupts it. Yeah. 15:13 And then so, like, you get these kind of sycophants who, who just think, "Oh, it's gonna be cool because it's A24," but then you get people who are maybe a little bit more critical saying, like, "Well, wait. 15:23 No, they just have a lot of money and, like, they're not... Like, don't give them credit for what, like, the director- [laughs]... the writer, et cetera, did here." And, like, the brand plays are not like... 15:33 They're r- they're using, like, merch and members fan clubs and- Mm-hmm... these are not, like, new ideas. They just haven't been arranged in such a way. 15:42 And both, both of those critiques can be true or, or I think it's good. You need, like, a lead- a leader brand like that to kind of bring people in. Mm. Maybe, like, that's their jump off point. 15:51 Like, "Okay, now I feel comfortable having some language with film, and I'm gonna go into Criterion or..." 15:58 You need these, like s- you need a s- a handle on culture, and I think, like, a brand like that, I don't have, like, a strong opinion on it. Like, I don't... It doesn't really matter. I think it's, um, 16:10 but I think it's, like, a playbook now that people can follow. Um, and music could learn now from some of its own playbook stuff that it's let go of, I think. Mm-hmm. 16:21 I think Nicholas did a really good job in his A24 piece for Dirt kind of threading that needle and explaining- Mm... like, how we got here. Um, 16:30 but I also think when you're talking about fandom and the amount of knowledge it requires now, I do think the pendulum's sort of swinging back. 16:38 'Cause if you think about, like, fandom used to be sort of like being a regular at a restaurant, and if you think about being a regular at a restaurant, which is something we talked about with Ben Leventhal, who started Blackbird, like, 16:52 it's about your presence in the restaurant. It's not about your knowledge of the restaurant. And I think the pendulum is swinging back to a more presence-based fandom rather than a knowledge-based fandom. 17:04 But there's also certain fandoms that are split between the two. Like, for example, Grateful Dead. Like, my husband never went to a Grateful Dead concert, didn't go to the Dead & Co. 17:14 tour, but really enjoys the sort of, um, archive picking aspect of being- Mm... a Grateful Dead fan. Like- Dick's Picks. Yeah, like finding obscure recordings, um, like reading about them- Mm... 17:30 reading about the difference in how certain songs were, like, played over time as members cycled out, instruments changed. And I think that that's, like, that's really cool. 17:40 That sort of knowledge-based rather than presence-based fandom is cool as long as people aren't militant about it. Mm-hmm. I think the toxic fandom is really a combination of, like, 17:51 knowledge-based fandom plus this sort of like let people enjoy things, criticism is violence- Mm... emotional posture. Um, and I, I want to think that that's sort of going away, but we'll see. 18:07 Like, we're about to enter another Taylor Swift album cycle. I feel like that's always the litmus test for [laughs] where fandom is at any given time. That's, that's a great point.I think, wait- Yeah... 18:16 something on fandom I wanna talk about here is, like, I've been, over the past couple years, have gotten really into watching soccer, specifically Arsenal. Mm-hmm. 18:24 And so o-on Twitter, there's, I mean, football Twitter, soccer Twitter is such this insane culture, and I think that is actually a hypercritical culture where, you know, the, the new season's about to start on, on, on Friday, this weekend, and, like, there's been all these preseason games, and so the, the, like, the fan culture there is like there's these characters on Twitter who are so, like, 18:45 they have so much vitriol to, like, the manager or the players, and they're, it, like, like, this measure of fandom is actually how critical you are and how opinionated you are and how- Sure... 18:54 you show yourself to have this knowledge of, like, the tactics and how the manager should be playing the players and stuff. 19:00 Um, and I, I think, like, that is so opposed to something like, like a Taylor Swift fandom or some of these music fandoms that are about sycophancy, whereas, like, the, the, like, this, at least this specific, like, football Twitter sports fandom is such this, like, vitriolic, like, negative, um, fandom. 19:18 Like, you show your, you show your patriotism by digging in on it- Yeah... versus, like, you know, hate on a Taylor song to show that you love Taylor. It's interesting. Yes. But the, but then- Very different... 19:30 the, the last thing I'll say about it is, like, on the presence side, like, then I'll, I'll listen to some podcasts, and it'll be, like, some, you know, journalist who actually lives in London and goes to the games- Mm... 19:38 and is saying like, "Yeah, you go to these games, and everybody's applauding this player that," and, like, cheering for him, that everybody on Twitter is saying like, "Oh, he's shit. He sucks. 19:46 We should- It was a waste of money," et cetera, which goes back to the presence thing. 19:49 Like, the true fandom maybe is the presence, the people who go to these games, but then when you're on the internet and you can't go to these games, it's like the fandom may be like- Oh, that's fascinating... 20:00 m- They're actually different. You know, turns into this cancer. Yeah. Right. Yeah. I, I also have this sneaking suspicion sometimes that what I'm reading on socials, and I love... 20:10 I'm, like, a big lover of social media, is not actually, like, the truth. Yeah. [laughs] It's like a, it's its own prism of light. 20:18 So that's like I never thought about that, this, like, what Daisy just said and what you just said, that they're, they can both, they're both coexisting, but because of the access point or the... 20:28 You show your fandom o- you perform your fandom in different ways. Mm-hmm. 20:32 And, like, I think the Oasis thing is interesting is that I have friends who went, and who are not given to, you know, um, hyperbole, to use your term, and they're like, "I gotta go back." Like, is this weird? 20:44 You know, but it w- it just shows how, like, deeply in need of, like, connection and, you know, pa- the, the de- you know, dead shows, Phish shows, ma- fill in the blank, we, we make, you can make fun of these fandoms. 20:57 I, I talk about ICP often. I've never been to an ICP show, I have to admit, but, um, I, I've always, like, loved the idea that there's, like, this sweetness to it. Mm-hmm. It's like 21:09 it is the u- it is the undesirables, but it's like, well, we, we chose to make ourselves this way, and we're grease paint so that you, we, we are risking our s- identity, but in that we have a togetherness. Yeah. 21:22 And, like, it's actually a not a racist space, or they, they at least don't espouse any, um, racism or they're very anti that stuff. So yeah, I mean... And I guess that's what, like, run clubs are or book clubs are. 21:35 Like, uh, and I know, like, the community, the new C word is, like, super hard to bandy about these days without sounding inauthentic, but I don't know how you, like... Maybe it really isn't online. 21:49 Maybe community isn't- Well, like-... as online as we thought it was... what has been the evolution of community as it pertains to Ghostly, and, like, what's your involvement like today? I think it evolves. 21:59 I mean, any company, I'm sure this is, you guys have businesses, and there's life cycles. There's, like, me and my roommates or me and the crew in the first office, which is someone's bedroom, and then it's, like, a, 22:14 um, bedroom community. I think most labels come out of and most, like, good culture enterprises come out of groups of friends. Mm-hmm. Is my unexplored thesis too is, like, 22:24 it has to be a cottage industry to start, and, like, people and the, the, the seniors, whatever. And then there's obviously growth phase, 22:33 and, and I like the Fred Wilson, like, different people for different times in a company, um, that you need. You can't... Ra- it's rare that it makes sense 22:42 to keep the same, like, personnel or founder or whatever the whole time. But I, I find it, yeah, I just, I stopped using, like, family. 22:50 You know, like, that was a period of time where maybe it was a group of friends, but it seemed inauthentic to be like, "We're a family." It's like, no, it's, it's a business, and- [laughs]... the, the, the roster... 23:01 I had a, I had a friend who's, like, a well-known podcaster, and he's talking about 23:05 wanting to do more music, and he was like, "I wanna s-" Like, I'm like, he wanted to be signed to a, a proper record label, in, in quotes if you can't see this. Um, and I, I was like, "What is it that you want out of it? 23:16 Is it, like, the brand?" 'Cause for guys my age, it's like you wanted to be validated by Sub Pop or Saddle Creek. It made you, stuff stick out in the stack of CDs in the store. Mm-hmm. 23:28 He's like, "I wanna, like, feel like I'm part of a community. I wanna, like, talk to other musicians and give notes and receive notes." I was like, "I don't wanna burst your bubble, but, like, 23:38 you know, I, I work with Secretly, and I, I, I've never seen, like, Mitski and Phoebe Bridgers in the office kicking it." And I'm not saying they don't. I have no idea, but it's not a, it's not Laurel Canyon. 23:48 It's not CBGBs. Like, those, that exists obviously, but it's not what I think the labels that we think about, even a Sub Pop, like, there's a, they have a very strong... 24:00 They're actually one of the best, like, community building labels still 'cause they have a strong connection to Seattle- Mm-hmm... and KEXP, and there's a whole ecosystem. 24:08 But to answer your question, yeah, I mean, I think socials are a proxy, or it's like a shared tone. I've always enjoyed that aspect of it. 24:17 And then, yes, the artist is fun when you can get people together, they co- they co-write, but it's not, um-It's not so organic, you know? You have to kind of create it. 24:27 But I'm not saying there's labels that aren't that. I think some labels that are, like, lean stronger into live or have a booking agency or have a festival, um, that, that's where the energy is. 24:40 That's never been, like, our stock and trade. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I, uh... I, I mean, I'm thinking of, like, this, I don't even... I g- I... Maybe they're a label. 24:49 I think they're releasing some stuff, but this, uh, DJ collective called Mala Junta, which I- I've seen them in Berlin. 24:57 I've been to a couple of their parties there twice, and then they had one here at Basement a couple weeks ago, and I went to that- Cool... because I'd been to those and I like them. 25:03 And, like, that, like, follow- I follow now a few of these people on Instagram, and, like, they are traveling the world together and, like, playing these shows together, and th- they're rarely going... 25:11 I mean, they do go, and, like, like this one DJ will play their own show there, but it seems like they do a lot of this stuff together, um, which just to make a point of, like, I think community is this, like, real-world physical thing. 25:24 Um- Mm-hmm... like in, you know, in, in my, my main job doing Creator Spotlight, we... I talk to a lot of people who, like, have these communities as part of their business and run them. 25:32 And, like, I think what I've learned about, like, what makes a community and, like, doesn't turn m- turn it into a C word, [laughs] as you said, is, like, two things. One, like, if it is just a digital thing. 25:42 Two, it- it's, it's some shared value system and shared goals. It can't just be- Mm... like, built around, like, one person who they're kind of, like, worshiping. There has to be this- Mm... 25:50 like, mutual support where people are, are talking to each other because they both believe in, like, whatever thing it is. Like, one, Melanie Ehrenkranz is laid off, um, you know, on Substack. 26:01 She's, she's really popular. This... Or- Yeah... her community is really popular. It's people who got laid off and can kind of commiserate about that and chat about that. Yeah. 26:08 But then the other side of it, too, is, like, that's still just a proxy for, like, real-world community where, like, you can, you know, l- like, walk over to your friend's house or something. 26:19 Like, I often think about if I was to leave New York City, where would I go? And I, I, I can't because everyone I know and love and, like, wanna be around is here, and I don't wanna be- Mm-hmm... 26:29 somewhere where they're not. And, like, just talking to them on my Instagram [laughs] DMs wouldn't suffice, right? So I, I do- Yeah... 26:37 I think community in, like, an authentic way, not a C word, is, like, one, it's whatever shared value system and shared goals around that, but it, it is ultimately always the in-person, the real world, the unmediated. 26:52 Yeah. I like, I like the Dirt events I've been to. Oh, thanks, Sam. Yeah. Yeah. You mentioned one of our events, um, when we did our Herb Sundays, and you... That was when you met Zach Schonfeld, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. 27:04 Cool guy. You know, you know both of the brothers? Well, you're a good... You, you understood. You're... 'Cause you're, like, a living connector. 27:08 You're like, "Hey, music nerd, music nerd, you guys are sitting by [laughs] yourselves. You should talk." Like- Dude, I did not- [laughs] It takes... No, but I mean, that's the instinct, right? 27:17 And it's like, how do I make, make things better? How do I, like, connect people? Um, and I... If you... 27:23 That's a real skill, and obviously it's gonna become more increasingly valuable in the world, is, like, how do you make people feel comfortable and connected inside? 27:31 I did that to two people at the Clone party, and now they keep sending me photos of them hanging out together. [laughs] That's great. So- I mean, look, that's so, like- Now I, I host just too close to the sun. 27:41 [laughs] Just close enough. That Maslow hierarchy. [laughs] You... Yeah. Um, I am so fascinated by the label Fat Possum, and they- Mm-hmm... of course now control, uh, the Tyrant Books archive. 27:53 So there's a little bit- Oh, I didn't know that... they are, like, essentially a little bit of a publisher. Um, the Brad Phillips book that I think I talked about earlier, maybe a few months ago. 28:04 The, he only has the one book, right? From a few... From, like, five years ago. I think just the one. Yeah. Yeah. So, um- Essays and fiction... 28:11 I, I, I tried to go to the old Tyrant Magazine website 'cause I was, like, looking up, um, old authors I like, and I noticed it was, like, down because that... It had expired. 28:22 And so I ended up getting in touch with, um, I think somebody at Fat Possum and just said, like, "Should make sure that you still have access to this domain and that it's up," 'cause I... 28:33 There's a lot of writers that I care about who wrote for this, and, like, um, if for some reason you can't maintain it, like, I can help, or I can help front the cost of, like, keeping it online. 28:44 I mean, I don't think that that was necessary. I think it really had just, like, expired, but I was sort of just, like, kinda came in, like- You were protecting it from- Yeah, like I have an interest-... dumpster... 28:54 in this. Yeah. Yeah. [lips smack] And he said, like, "Let me send you something as a thank you. Pick something out." 28:59 So I picked out the Brad Phillips book, and I picked out, um, the vinyl for We Buy Diabetic Test Strips, which I think is Doves, or is the, um- That's right... it's Arm & Hammer. Doves is another- Mm... 29:13 song that I like on that album, which- Oh, got it. I thought you was thinking it was, like, some Doves album. I just don't know their catalog. No, no, no, no. Got it. I'm just mixed up. 29:19 So yes, that's, like, a great album. Arm & Hammer. Okay. Yeah. So great album. So they sent me both, and I enjoyed both. 29:25 But, um, they also sent me this old, um, profile of the founder where he's, like, driving around looking for one of his blues musicians who's essentially, like, an itinerant, and it's one of the craziest things I've ever read in my life. 29:41 I just... There are so few people, like, working in that way anymore. Um- Mm-hmm. And it really stood out to me. Um, I mean, it's an older article. I don't know if you could, 29:55 like, cultivate, um, that much of your sort of, like, label roster that way today- Mm-hmm... through talent discovery and have some of your talent be, like, really kind of living on the fringes of society. 30:10 But I'd like to think that you can because people who live on the fringes of society are, like, the most interesting [laughs] people- Absolutely... um, as W. David Marx would also say. [laughs] Mm-hmm. Um, 30:22 so anyway, that's just my- Well, the archiving instinct out of every one of your interviews, and I was researching your Herb Sundays, was you talked about you lost a friend, and then you saved with-You're f- his friends and you saved his texts or his tweets or something? 30:38 Yeah, that was my friend Anthony. He was an- Yeah... amazing tweeter, and he had deactivated his Twitter to s- he was taking a break from Twitter when he died suddenly. They had nothing to do with each other. 30:49 But, uh, everyone was devastated, 'cause the first thing everyone wanted to do was, like, look up his tweets and, like, look up the interactions they'd had with him. 30:56 And by chance, like, one of his other friends had archived his Twitter as part of a project he was working on. Amazing. 31:02 And so yeah, everyone had access to a Google Sheet of Anthony's tweets, and I would go in there and there would be, like, you know, it says on the top, like, 12 animals are in the doc. 31:10 And I'm like, "I'm here with all the other animals, and we just miss Anthony so much." Mm. Um, and so yeah, that was definitely something that was, like, top of mind when I saw that the Tyrant site wasn't up. 31:20 I was like, I don't ever want somebody else to have to feel that way about losing somebody's work. Mm-hmm. Um, I don't wanna feel that way about, like, losing somebody's work again. 31:31 And- I think this is a new thought- Yeah... though, in the last, like, few years where we all... I think we thought the internet was this, like, cold storage, right? Yeah. 31:39 Obviously now, like, so many d- e- like, more, I get more dead links than not when I'm researching something for, for Herb. Obviously tweets, we know what can happen with platforms now. 31:49 Um, I think that and, and I've been thinking about the physical media resurgence thing, 'cause I keep, it keeps circling my orbit, and I think I buy a lo- I, like, I'm a, like, collector person. 31:59 This was on your list- And I-... of things [laughs] that you're into. Yeah, 'cause I, because that's been on my, like, bulletin board of, like, collecting articles. Yeah. 32:06 And like, something's here, and I don't totally buy the, like, story. 32:10 I think, like, the story is that it's, like, this political prot- they're, they're not saying I can't speak for anybody else, but it's being framed as this, like, political protest against streaming. Mm. 32:18 Which is possible, I think. But I think the... There's a couple things happening. Obviously there's, there's nostalgia for, like, whatever mediums we grew up with, which is fine. 32:29 Uh, CDs are also, like, way more f- affordable right now than vinyl, and are easy to collect, and they're, like, kind of a joy to get back to. Like, I asked for one for Christmas. 32:39 My wife was like, "You really want a CD player?" [laughs] I was like, "Yeah." And it's been, like, one of my favorite possessions is, like, it just opened all this media up for home that in a way vinyl... 32:50 'Cause I was away from my stuff and I didn't have my record collection, so it's like, cool, if I went to Goodwill or whatever, there's- A million songs... 32:59 some soundtrack that I know she, that she liked, and I was excited to find it. So there's, like, the friction part. Tarzan? [laughs] Um- It's a classic. Good... Yeah. 33:08 I think I heard it on a CVS recently and, and appreciated Phil Collins. [laughs] He's again in, also on the bulletin board right now, streaming. 33:15 I had a transcendent experience watching that movie for the first time in a drive-in. Oh, wow. 33:19 And yeah, the Phil Collins music was, like, ripping, and I was, like, having a spiritual experience [laughs] like each, whatever. 33:27 Speaking, speaking of soundtracks- I think there was, like, a room- H- how did you guys end up publishing the Minecraft soundtrack? Yeah, Sam. Yeah. W- how did we? Um, that was... 33:39 It's one of those things, a lot of stuff, um... And we ended, we ended up not doing other s- games. Mm. 'Cause it was like, obviously you start to get, when you get successful, it's one thing. 33:49 You're like, "Oh, here's all these other things. We could make a whole label." We thought about it. It's like, I don't really know the gaming industry. 33:54 I feel like I'm not gonna be able to, like, decide or even having somebody... It's, like, a very... And also you're, like, on someone else's timeline. Yeah. 34:02 It's like, the game's coming out and it's gotta be ready, and it's also some of- The whole marketing piece... the most annoying fans of all time. Like, it's like a Punisher, uh, crowd. 34:12 And so it's like, maybe we don't wanna... But anyway, um, a friend of mine in Ann Arbor, I think I asked or he k- had said, "Hey, I know Daniel," or who's C418. And I was like, "Yeah, we should chat." 34:24 And the game was popular, but it wasn't, like, it was still, like, level five, not whatever it is now. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And I was like, "Hey." 34:32 He had the digital rights, and it was just like, "Hey, can we press this on vinyl?" And then just kinda... 'Cause that game is just, it's like hoovers up every generation. Yeah. There's, like, this endless 34:44 growth curve, and I wonder what else is like that. I, I maybe think about... 'Cause I have, uh, young kids, like, I think about IP a lot- Mm... 34:51 and, like, how the brands, how, like, Disney especially, so there's a d- just, there's a Spider-Man show for his four-year-old age. Mm. And it's like that's the... Now he knows the characters. 35:01 The Star Wars one I haven't, like, quite broached yet. [laughs] It's, uh, it's just not, it's also it's not quite as appealing to me for some reason. I, I haven't, like, found my base there. 35:09 But it's like some of these brands- Star Wars in general or this newer IP? Well, this, like, the kids version- Mm, mm... is, like, less, I just don't, I didn't... Maybe 'cause I'm, like, old head, 35:18 you know, original trilogy, like, I'm still on the scene- You don't fuck with Baby Yoda? [laughs] Yeah. It's like, I just, I'm the wrong guy. Like, I don't- Yeah... begrudge it, I just, like, don't have as... 35:26 I- I'm more of a Marvel dude than a Star Wars guy if I had to choose. And then it's like these brands have to be so creative at re-engaging and, like s- Mm-hmm... bringing these kids up. 35:39 And I think music also lacks that sometimes, I think. 35:43 Um, I, I, like, I'm on record of being, like, fan of the greatest hits, which now obviously is just a playlist, but it's, like, that platform's playlist of their greatest hits. Yeah. 35:52 It's like, I want the band to tell me. I know there's, there's a Hot Chip one coming out. There was a Spoon one, like, a decade ago. 35:59 Like, it's, I think 'cause fan, bands are supposed to be modest now and not talk about how great they are. They don't wanna do it. But it's like, no, tell me your favorite 10 songs. 36:07 Like- The first album I ever bought was, it was on iTunes, um, in, like, 2005, was the essential Ozzy Osbourne, actually. You gotta start- I'm a big fan... you gotta get in there. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. 36:19 Um- So I think, I don't know what it is for music, but, and I know people are doing it with films, so, like, Marley or Queen, but that's, like, a really high bar to clear. 36:29 But, like, what is the, like, way to reintroduce... I guess sync, like the Kate Bush thing- Mm... is still important. I forgot about that. 36:36 Um, but I think in documentaries, but, like, there's probably some other, like-Like, why isn't there, like, a Celine Dion cartoon show or something, you know? I'm sure Britney will get one. 36:46 But I know there's a lot of rights issues and, like, life rights and stuff. Um, you- So has Strokes greatest hits yet? Speaking of Britney, you just had Jeff Weiss on Herb Sundays. 36:55 Have you read his book, the, his Britney book? I've not, but I'm curious to. It did. Yeah, it's like a real fast, fast one. It's, it's- Mm-hmm... 'cause he's such a great writer. 37:05 And I remember him, it's like my heart sunk when I, I text... He's like, "Yeah, I'm finishing my book." I'm like, "What's it about?" He's like, "Britney." And I, and I, it's not 'cause I'm like, um, too cool for school. 37:16 I was just like, "Wait, is, did he, like, lose his mind?" [laughs] Like, 'cause this is, like, one of the great writers- Yeah... you know, of like, an underground writers and, of underground music. 37:25 And then obviously, of course, pulled it off 'cause he unders- he understands what it means. He understands all the s- so- sociopolitical- And he was there, right? That was part- And he was there, right. 37:37 Like, he was- And it's also, like, a little, like, m- murky. Mm-hmm. It's like the material, it's like you don't quite know. But yeah, like, I mean, it's such a... 37:45 Whenever I read people like that, I'm like, "Oh, I need to, like, learn how to write." I got into him- You know?... through his, his, all his work on, on Draco the Ruler, which is such a sad story. 37:56 But, like, I, I w- like, everything he was writing about that was, like, so heartbreaking and so vivid. And, like, I mean, I d- I, that, I, I, I can't really say anything about it. 38:07 It kinda pales in comparison to, to the work itself, but, um, yeah, definitely one of my favorite music writers. Well, he's, like, kept that artist alive. Yeah. Right? I mean- Mm-hmm... 38:17 and to Daisy's- We know the truth-... point... they say. Right. And we, and someone, like, kept the flame lit. And it takes a certain, like, insanity to do that, you know? 38:27 And I think that's what's Arthur Russell, like, um- Mm-hmm... Steve, who manages the archive and the catalog, and is, like, beautifully rolling out a new record every year or two, and kind of, like, not over-pumping it. 38:38 He knows that there's, like, a threshold, um, to hit, but not too much. 'Cause it still should feel like a discovery. Every generation, like, I think Nick Drake is probably, like, this too. Mm. Mm-hmm. 38:48 It's like it has to come to them. It can't be, like, you know- Arthur Russell... so it's like you need these- Warren Zevon... docents. Yeah. I remember Nick Drake. 38:57 I remember when I discovered Nick Drake when I was living in New Orleans, like, seven years ago. It blew my mind. That's all I listened to for, like, three months. 39:04 [laughs] I was listening to his stuff around the eclipse a lot 'cause it's so eclipse coded. [laughs] Interesting. Um- But I like that there's these, like... 39:12 I wrote about this, like, a week or two ago, it's, like, under loved, even though, like, you know, there is a certain sadness in these stories and, like, the death trip of a Rothko or a Drake, or 39:24 where you don't want the brand to be death or failure. Mm. Yeah. 'Cause but it is inevitably tied to it, but it is, like, how do you, like, not fetishize it, but also just enjoy it? 39:35 People who didn't get old enough to- Are there, like, Jeff Buckley and Elliott Smith-... peter out... movies coming up at the same time? Like, do they care about the mental health of 35-year-old men at all? 39:44 [laughs] It's like, who will speak for these people? [laughs] It sounds like you will. We- No. Well, yeah, sure. [laughs] I, for the last, like- Men, men's rights activist, Daisy. [laughs] Yeah. Men's mental health. 39:54 She's the only one who sees, who gets us. 39:56 For the f- past, like, three falls, I've been making a version of, like, a starter pack meme that's, like, hauntology boy fall, and it's been hauntology boy fall for the last three falls. Mm-hmm. 40:07 Um, and it's- We're almost done... always these artists and, um, you know, a big fisherman sweater obviously. Mm-hmm. But when I'm speaking of the hauntology boy, I'm really speaking of myself. [laughs] Mm-hmm. 40:20 That was clear. Yeah. [laughs] Are you projecting yourself into the culture, into the new- Look, hauntology-... type?... hauntology boys and divorced dads are just living in different timelines. 40:33 Same person living in different timelines. [laughs] But, um, yeah, no, it's a, it's all a projection, and you gotta get some Mark Fisher in there, canceled future- Mm... obviously. Yeah. 40:44 Y- you, you wr- I think you put hauntology in the clam post. That was an Easter egg for the real ones. Actually the- Yeah, I, I, that, that gripped me 'cause I was like, "Yay." A pearl, if you will. I know that word. 40:53 The worst Easter egg was immediately clocked. I, I opened my Instagram, I was like, "Oh, Jason Stewart DM'd me. I bet he's finally asking me on How Long Gone." 41:03 [laughs] And he was like, "Thanks for the shout-out in your essay, Daisy." [laughs] Amazing. What was the shout-out? I forget. Or as I'm writing it, I'm like, "Podcaster named Jason." 41:09 I was like, "Mm, Jason Stewart's gonna think this is about him." Then I was like, "Jason Stewart's not gonna read this. I'll leave it in." Oh. I love that. I- He liked it... 41:16 my Jason Stewart soul meeting was seeing him at a, at Four Horsemen and, um, because we were, like, DM'ing or, you know. Mm-hmm. And I thought, like, it was such a great, like... 41:28 'Cause I, I, 'cause I remember that show, their show, like, when it came out during COVID. Mm-hmm. I was like, or during lockdown one, I was like, "Oh, I get why my mom, like, loved Regis and Kathie Lee" [laughs] 41:40 For, for the younger folks in this room- Yeah... that was, that was the original show. And I was like, "Oh, it's like just the sound of two people t- bantering normally- [laughs]... 41:48 and, like, the cadence of their voice in the room is like a- Yes... it, like, makes you feel safe or, like, happy. And it's, like, a fascinating- Interesting. Yeah... 41:58 that show, that, that, that podcast, it gave me that feeling in that time. And then I saw him, and then I thought, I thought we knew each other because we had, like, DM'd but we never hung out. 42:08 And then I, I waved at him, and my, my wife made fun of me for being a l- a loser- For, for being antisocial... waving at a guy who didn't know you. Yeah. But it was like, "Okay, I can see how people fall into this." 42:17 It was my, like, uh, you're only a, only a click away from becoming a insane person. Yeah. [laughs] There were, there were months during COVID where I probably heard their voice more, their voices more than my own. 42:31 [laughs] That's beautiful. That's a, that's a, that's a great thought. Mm-hmm. But, um, but yeah, I'm, I, I don't wanna make you repeat yourself, Daisy, but is, can you give me, like, the TLDR on the project? 42:45 Mm-hmm.Yeah. So I started working on something, like, earlier this year, um, with a network called Delta, and the original idea was to try to figure out, like, why has there been no Venmo of micropayments? 43:02 Like, I feel like micropayments never worked 'cause there was no status in it, but maybe if you could inject some- something social, make it usable for somebody outside the crypto space, it could be s- become something that people layer over Substack and other distribution networks to kind of capture that delta of people who are like, 43:22 they don't wanna pay nothing, but they also don't wanna commit to subscribe, and maybe they- Mm-hmm... give you $5 a year or $10 a year that you wouldn't get from them otherwise. 43:31 Then as I'm going along in this project and having discussions with the other people involved, I felt like there was a bigger opportunity around realizing that, like, 43:43 AI agents are going to be part of the total addressable market for any new media company, and that we're having all of this discussion about, like, how shitty AI is as a creator, but we're not discussing, like, what does it mean if AI is in your audience, and i- the end point consumer is somebody who has trained this AI on their taste. 44:09 Yeah. Um, and so that's where this idea of, like, agentic capital came from. Like, who will have high agentic capital? And, 44:16 like, I understand people are, like, critical and upset about these ideas because they don't like crypto and they don't like AI, but my point is, like, this is already happening. Like- Mm-hmm... Google is unusable. 44:31 There's a lot of publishers that were relying on Google for people to discover their stuff, and so PageRank has been replaced with people trying to be visible in LLM, like ChatGPT searches. Mm-hmm. 44:46 Um, but nobody really knows what the conventions are of that yet because as, like, sort of inscrutable as PageRank and Google and SEO seemed at the time, like, these companies, like OpenAI, are even more inscrutable. 45:01 Um, there's no playbook. The playbook is being i- written in real time for what you need- Yeah... to do to come up in a ChatGPT search. Um, and so my point is, like, I, I didn't create that. 45:15 Like, I didn't shitify everything. I'm trying to bring the conversation back to my core question, which is, like, how do you get people to pay for media? Yeah. We all care about that question. 45:27 But I think the problem is people get so overwhelmed that they will, like, claim that they don't. Like, they'll be like, "Well, I don't care. I just wanna make my art." And it's like, that's not true. Right. 45:39 You feel that way, and what you're really feeling is grief. Your grief for the way that you thought the cultural landscape was going to work- Mm-hmm... is impacting your ability to analyze where it might go. 45:56 And that's okay, but, like, if you're already running something like Dirt or you're already running a media company, you don't really have the luxury of grieving that or just dropping out of the system to make DIY zines. 46:09 Um, 'cause, like, that's, that's totally co- okay, that's valid, but that's not how money circulates through the ecosystem. Yeah. And I'm not saying- We're trying s- subscription right now at Culture- Yeah... 46:22 at scale finally. Yeah. And I, I even had a subscription service [laughs] back in the tens and learned a lot of the stuff that you're talking about, which is like it doesn't, it's not a... 46:33 And especially as Substack becomes more popular, how many can you actually have, right? I, I don't- You can't pay attention to... The thing is, like, it's not... 46:44 You will run out of attention before you run out of money [laughs], which is sort of, like, part of that attention is what makes us human thing. But the thing about agentic capital is it doesn't just... 46:55 It might not 10X your money 'cause your money is your money, but it might spend it more efficiently across the stuff that you're actually reading. Like, the way I spend right now is super inefficient. 47:06 I pay for Substacks I never read. I have things I read all the time that I never pay for. That's not efficient. Um, and it could also, like, it is in a way 10X-ing your attention, right? Because it's like 47:19 it can pay attention or decide not to pay attention to things that you might otherwise have to see and evaluate yourself. It's... Well, wait, wait. 47:27 When you say it's 10X-ing your attention, you mean it's like what it's removing is the, like, the time of, like, browsing Netflix for what are we gonna watch tonight, and it's decreasing- Mm-hmm... 47:35 the time between I wanna watch a movie, and here's the movie I'm watching. Yeah. And I do- When, like, on, on, on any medium. What's the homepage product that you guys launched? The Culture Links? Clone. Clone. Clone. 47:46 My friend Riley's a big fan. Shout to, to the... Shout you guys out. Thanks. Shout you out about Daisy 'cause he loves Clone. Thanks. Thanks, Riley. [laughs] But I... Clone with agentic agents 47:57 is, like, the, the dream, right? Where I open- Personal Clone... my homepage. Well, I trained... Like, I put Clone into ChatGPT. 48:02 Like, so we have a, a Google spreadsheet that's just, like, every link we've posted on Clone. And I just use free ChatGPT, so this is, like, such a, this is, like, a really primitive analysis. 48:11 I just dropped all the links in that we'd posted up until that point. There was, like, 1,000. And I was like, "Tell me about the persona and point of view of the person that curated these." Yeah. Then it was like, 48:21 "You are a 34-year-old man living in LA or New York. You work in media or tech." Whoa. "And you probably have center to center-left views." 48:28 Now, I am on the left side of that, but I purposely put links on Clone that are a little bit more center than I am- Mm-hmm... to maintain a perspective that I think is useful. 48:43 Um, but I am, like, famously a leftist. So I think it really nailed it, and that was on, you know-Limited basis. So, like, the idea is, like, Clone could be its own persona, it could be its own- Mm-hmm... 48:58 um, AI agent, and that, like I said in the piece, like, the secondary market for paying to subscribe to somebody else's agent or their taste could eventually eclipse the primary- I believe that... 49:10 form of monetizing something like this, which would be to, like, make money off of the carry like Starbucks does with all the money people load in to- Yeah... pay for their coffee. 49:19 But, like, again, like, I don't think that I'm above criticism. Like, I'm not gonna sit on Twitter and be like, "You guys aren't allowed to criticize me because I have 49:29 put hundreds of thousands of dollars into the ecosystem for freelance writing that wouldn't be in there otherwise." That's true. Doesn't mean I'm above criticism. But I would like to keep doing that, and 49:40 if I have been working on this problem for the last three years and I'm not an idiot, and I'm saying people don't buy subscriptions [laughs] at scale- Mm-hmm... 49:49 to support media companies, the type of media company that we're used to, then, like, it's true or at least it's true from my experience and the people that I network with. Y- absolutely. 50:01 And I don't want, I don't wanna miss out on, maybe there's a pr- um, you know, what's the scent vertical you guys have? 50:08 Or, you know, like, maybe I don't subscribe to those, but I- [laughs] We don't have one yet, but maybe- Or, or some event. I'm, I'm it being agentic-minded. Mm-hmm. Uh, but I would rather get a, 50:21 a dirt product that's like three of the articles from this week that hit, you know, obviously, like, maybe trad media, and then, like, a couple hu- Substack or, like, fringe things, but that has some bias. 50:35 I, I worry of in music especially, which is supposed to be this, like, thou- you know, forward-thinking artistic space. Music has f- like, flubbed. It flubbed piracy, but that was more of a major label flub, right? Um, 50:50 we flubbed blockchain, I think. But I will come back around, but, like- Mm-hmm... everyone shat on it, um, sometimes with good re- because of the cult- it wasn't cool to like it. Um- Mm... 51:01 and there was a lot of reasons not to like it, and I get that. But the stuff, the boring stuff that it could've been useful for will, will eventually be, um, was kind of denounced as, like, baby bathwater. 51:10 Just like, oh- [laughs]... you know- Yeah... stupid, like, Bored Apes, blah, blah, blah. It's, I hate that. It's like, well, you, you want equity and transparency. Like, there's a lot of stuff in here, right? 51:21 Maybe it wasn't hot, but... And then I think we're gonna flub, music is gonna flub AI or whatever term you wanna put on it in the current version of it 'cause it's so... 51:33 Yeah, it's tied in with some bad actors, but so is social media, and so is media, and so is politics. Like- Yeah... 51:40 we're not gonna have pure, um, sources or pure platforms, so but if artists don't use some of this stuff, um, to their, to help their game, um, I worry for, for the game, for the industry, you know? 51:54 And I think that that's a fear I'm seeing right now. Yeah, I think- There's like a too, too cool for school thing about enjoying this stuff, you know? 52:02 Well, and some of the pushback was around, like, well, discovery, like doing your own hands-on discovery is important for the process of refining your taste, and I completely agree. 52:12 But I think the platforms that people did digital discovery on are really broken. Mm. 52:17 And actually, it's w- would be better to, like, really, like, embrace the split between what you can do online and what you can do offline. Like, I can go and leaf through a record store. 52:29 I can go and page through a booksh- bookstore offline and refine my taste that way. That's pleasure too. And- Like, that's, like- Yeah... people enjoy doing that... but then still come online. 52:38 Yeah, and still come online- Yeah... and acknowledge that, like, um, it's, I'm not gonna have that same discovery experience. It'd be cool to be able to, like, click to your 52:49 Clone homepa- like, I can ratchet between all the editors, so it's, like, say I want, hey, I like... So I'm a big believer in, like, taste stalking, right? 52:57 Like, you go to the wine person, you go to the f- instead of acting like you know everything, just be like, "Who fucking knows?" Mm-hmm. Right? 53:03 And then you go to- Herb Sunday's just, like, a really refined playlist stalking operation. [laughs] It is. Yeah. I'm, I'm literally going to the source, like, and I'm hopefully filtering the right people to pick. 53:13 That's the job, right? And then getting out of them something that's honest and not just, like, their publicist said you have to do it. 53:20 But you're, I'm, I'm, I'm trying to, like, mill the best stuff that's not gonna surface otherwise. But, um, you're gonna need a hybrid, right, of self-discovered and group-discovered. 53:33 Or maybe we have a group Clone where we deci- it's our book, it's our book club agenda, uh, you know, top, "Hey, everyone should read these Clone articles, and then we're gonna talk about them on Sunday." 53:44 Like, that seems like fun, you know? I'm glad you think that sounds like fun. I enjoy curating Clone. 53:50 I think it's hard not to feel self-conscious talking about technologies that a lot of people you respect have, like, written off wholesale. 53:59 But, like, I would rather people think I'm a loser and I, like, earn the right and the capital- A herb even. A herb. 54:06 I t- uh, capital continue doing what I'm doing, which people will eventually begrudgingly respect, so- Yeah. There's a- I think it's the part of just being visible, doing something different. 54:19 And, um, to un- enshittify, I think my, my concern is a lot of the media I'm consuming unintentionally is media about media. Mm. What I also, us want, like, also, like, the actual thing too. Not just- Mm-hmm... 54:35 the tentpole Marvel stuff, but, like, a beautiful poem or a beautiful post or a beautiful... It'd be for any source. And to your point, let's not worry about, um, 54:46 the presentation or, like, you know, oh, that's from, uh, Wall Street Journal and I don't like their poli- you know, it's just like, well, there's good sh- there's good shit in all this. Yeah. 54:54 I'm still a believer in, like, 80% of everything is, is not worth reading or drinking, eating, whatever. And then in that 20-Most of it's not gonna find me. 55:05 A- and people think they're so- they're- they're on top of everything, but if you're one degree, one, um, industry over, the fashion piece I should be reading maybe is not gonna reach me. The- Mm-hmm... 55:17 coffee piece that, that I actually should read, or j- your fat possum story- Mm-hmm... maybe wouldn't have hit your radar. And I think that's the f- future of media is, like, how do you surface the real shit, right? 55:31 And that's still gonna be hard to do even if w- with AI just because it's the attention economy and, you know, the noise, right? Yeah. 55:38 I mean, it costs money to maintain an archive and keep things online, and there's stuff that never got moved over from Dirt Substack to the CMS that, like, I know where it is, and I know it exists there, and I know that I haven't, like, lost it, but that's- Mm-hmm... 55:52 like I can't, I can't forget and shut that down. Like, and then our CMS, the, the company that we use for our CMS, they, like, raised their prices and, like, lowered their usage tiers. 56:06 So we've been using it for free, but then we were using too much bandwidth, and I had to pay. They wrecked our CMS. Basically they locked it. Mm-hmm. So I had to pay $850 just to unlock it, just to delete enough stuff. 56:23 Mm-hmm. Not content, but content types to get back into the free tier. [laughs] And so, like- Yeah... everyone knows I'm obsessed with storage. But you were talking, like, everyone thought the internet is cold storage. 56:37 It's absolutely not, and it's also, like, a constant battle to know where something is at any given time and to maintain it. Like- Mm-hmm... maintaining something- And wanting to resurface it into the- Yeah... 56:51 conversation or whatever too. Like, literally, like, I've been going to my storage unit 'cause I've been moving back, and, like, I have tons of stuff, and it's almost too many things. 57:00 It's almost, like, killing itself because, like- Mm-hmm... uh, the amount is, you know, breaking a box or whatever. 57:06 And so I've, like, had this physical metaphor of, like, too much information unsorted or unpruned becomes a damage to itself. Mm-hmm. 57:14 My SoundCloud's deleting my stuff just naturally 'cause I'm not paying for the next version. And, um, I agree. It's like, um, what do we do with all this water, water everywhere content or whatever? 57:30 Um, something I wanted to ask about a second ago. A little, a little unrelated to [laughs] to this conversation. Media about media. Um, media about music. 57:39 Um, I'm curious if there's any music journalism outlets, besides From Sunday, that you particularly admire right now. I can think of, like, Last Note of the Night or Hearing Things, but I used to be... 57:50 Like, when I was in college, I was such a, every day I'd spend, like, an hour or two reading, like, music blogs, et cetera. 57:56 And then I started using Spotify in 2017, and, like, basically at that, that part of my life ended overnight. So I'm wonder where you're looking to these days. Yeah. 58:06 The, the critique that, like, the platform should be both the editor and the music distributor to me is challenging, 'cause that's like saying if I go to movies and I doesn't, I'm not served a trailer, 58:20 then the, they failed me. Like, the, the vendor doesn't, isn't responsible. It would be great if they were. I mean, I, again, I love... You know, there's been moments of that with, like, eMusic or Apple early on. 58:32 That was, like, their claim to fame. Um, and I don't think it's, like, evil agenda, just, like, how many ti- how much time do people have? And you, you ha- uh, to your point about editors, there's a lot of old stuff. 58:47 There's a lot of books about, like, disco. Who maybe... I think Peter Shapiro just died. Um, Simon t- hauntology mastermind, Simon Reynolds, like- Oh, yeah... just going back through, like... 59:00 And then the, the un- um, the un- uh, scanned S- Spin articles. And- Mm... like, he did a book of all his essays, and it's, like, actually, it's cutting out Future Shock. Is he writing for NME? What's that? 59:12 Is he writing for- He was an NME guy. Yeah, NME. And he did Wire. I mean, he, he's written everything. But he did his Future Shock book as all his articles basically in order. So it's, like, Detroit, right? 59:21 It hits, like, all of, almost every pa- facet of electronic music in the last 40 years. Mm. And I'm increasingly excited by reading old stuff because- Mm... there, again, there was a budget maybe or there was just a... 59:33 People were alive, you know? Especially with the things like disco or just this, it's tricky. So I don't, um, have, like, a hot list. Like, I consume a g- there's a lot of underrated stuff. 59:43 There's a quiet, you know, there'll be a quietest piece about, um, who's the Eagles guy? Don Henley. Mm-hmm. About Boys of Summer. 59:50 I'm like, "This is, like, the best thing I've read," and it is, but it's not gonna, like, surface up, right? Mm-hmm. And that's where, like, I like the idea of a clone. Mm. 59:57 And that's what the, my thesis was for my subscriptions thing with Drip was, like, if you get enough affinity, then I can serve you nuggets of other stuff. It was wa- it was, you know, a failed version, but 1:00:11 I like the idea that you're getting, like, pre-approved slices of culture, right? It's like, "Oh, I love that Don Henley article. Why can't I subscribe to the author?" This is where agentic could be interesting. 1:00:22 So anything, time that that person writes for The Guardian or Wire, and maybe I'm not, I miss a Wire, I miss a whatever, 'cause I don't read every single issue of anything, um, it finds me, you know? That's exciting. 1:00:33 And it, and it tips them, right? Yeah. Yeah. Like, and everything's, like, m- wrecked or whatever, and it's hard to find people. So 1:00:41 I'm just, I'm getting pl- I get pleasure out, and I think, like, people like Yasi are amazing at, like- Mm... sourcing all of this old stuff and kind of re-engaging it. Um, 1:00:52 but I'll read a brilliant article that I, from someone I never knew existed about a topic, and there's a lot of hive mind going on. And so I don't know, but I don't know how it's gonna find us in the future. Right. 1:01:03 And you're probably not gonna subscribe to that person because that parasociality isn't there. 1:01:07 But, like, if your feelings about what you read are strong enough, like, you should be able to, like-Frictionlessly give them a dollar Mm-hmm. And without, without even knowing. 1:01:17 But just says, "Hey, tap me out at 20 bucks this month for the thing I read the most," right? So it's like how do you get people- Yeah... to spend without thinking about that value. 1:01:24 I mean, I think we're gonna look back on the fact that, like, Netflix is a flat rate and not a usage-based rate, and be like, "That's crazy. That's Dark Ages." 1:01:33 'Cause, like, some months I don't watch anything on Netflix, and I still pay the same amount. Is that the gym model, though? Hmm? The gym, like, the gyms of the world- Oh, yeah... 1:01:42 thrive on you not using the pla- That's any subscription thing. Of course, but I just think people will not accept it at a certain point. Oh, for sure. For sure. I think the big argument against that, though, not... 1:01:53 I know we're [laughs] coming up on time, too, so this might be too much of a can of worms. But I think the big argument against that is, like, how... 1:01:59 It's very difficult for a business to, to, like, sustain itself on usage-based rates, right? 1:02:05 Like, it's very hard to maintain a staff and to main- maintain overhead when you can't really accurately predict your revenue, which is what usage-based rates would be. Is that, like, what Apple News is doing, kind of? 1:02:16 Sorry, I got, I got that. No, go ahead. No, that's okay. I think it's an Apple News adjacent revolution. Like, you, you... 1:02:21 There's, uh, tiers of, like, there's subscribers, there's peop- there's people who don't read their New Yorkers every week, but it's just, like, a s- a must-have. 1:02:29 And then, and obviously the crisis of, like, public media is gonna explore, uh, may need to explore this. But I think there's, like, a tier of, like, p- lookie loo people- Mm-hmm... 1:02:39 who maybe aren't gonna subscribe, but, like, you still could be getting r- revenue from that pool. Yeah. And right now it's not. And this probably is true with music, too, and- It's a bucket of revenue for them. 1:02:48 It's a bucket, yeah. Yeah. I, I don't think... I mean, there's... You still need a tent pole, like... Or maybe you don't, I don't know. 1:02:55 But I mean, yes, you need a, a, a newsroom and a, but I think you have- Which, I mean, and maybe that tent pole, t- to, to the point, Daisy, you make in, in the Clam piece, is maybe the tent pole is events. 1:03:06 Maybe it's community. Maybe it's this real world stuff. Maybe the, the media was never the business model after all. I mean, I've never had a sub. Or the, the, the, the tote bag I always think of as kind of the, um... 1:03:18 You know, it was a, the Sports Illustrated football phone when I was growing up- [laughs]... in the '90s was, like, the thing you got when you subscribed. It was, like, the- That's true... 1:03:24 swimsuit issue, issue, and the football phone were, like, the two giveaways. Yeah. Compelling. And it's like, to our point about different kinds of fandom, there's, like, performative fandom, like, I have the... 1:03:34 Which is cool. It's like- Mm-hmm... I know a little bit about you 'cause of your tote bag, which is like the new band shirt maybe. And then there's the tchotchke, which I think is true of a lot of media now, like merch. 1:03:45 Storage unit fandom. [laughs] Storage unit fandom, like, is probably about where I fit. And then there's what you actually want, which is each vertical has to decide, is it the sense that I feel 1:04:00 up to s- to, I can talk at a dinner party about culture elegantly? Is it that I don't feel like I'm a cultural person if I don't subscribe to it? Like, what's the... And I think that's, like, more... 1:04:10 Or, or there's a parasocial, like- Mm-hmm... fandom thing. But each, each media company probably has to decide what it is that they, the Clayton Christensen, what are you hiring me for? Um- Hmm... and that's, like, the, 1:04:24 you know, that's how you... All those together is a business maybe. [upbeat music] And I think that's where we'll end it. This has been Tasteland. Thank you for listening. See you next week. Thank you. 1:04:36 [upbeat music]
