Transcript 0:00 [rock music] Honey. It tastes like it costs. Right now I'm looking through- We're not gonna do any ice breakers... ever. You don't wanna know my favorite color? 0:16 Du- [laughs] Uh, I don't. I, I mean- I don't really know what your color is... if it comes up organically that's fine. I just don't think... I think part of chemistry is you can't force a connection. Mm-hmm. 0:25 Like, you either have it or you don't. Um, I will s- [laughs] I will say, I wish everyone could see our show notes because I'm just gonna reveal some of the special sauce. 0:38 The first item is Maine, in bold, and then as a sub item it says Vermont, not in bold, and then height reveal, dot dot dot. With an ellipsis, yeah. Mm-hmm. With an ellipsis. Um, so I mean should we stick to that? 0:54 I don't wanna, I don't wanna jump ahead but, I mean, I'm, I'm just dying to know how tall you think I am. I think you are five, eight, give or take, uh, half an inch. And on what basis? 1:08 On looking at your, the photos of you in the New York Times article about Dirt. How... Did you do like Pythagorean theorem on that? No. Were you like, "How tall is this rock?" No. Look, I could, eh, I could just guess. 1:23 You know, it's something about, like, you- That's not my energy, though. Look, I, I look, I'm like, I'm like 30 years old. You know, I've been walking around this planet for a while, seeing people. 1:33 You know, you can kind of, you can kind of tell, right? Am I right- Yeah... or am I wrong? You, it, you gotta tell me. I'm 30 or 40 years old and [laughs] Do you know that meme? Okay. 1:43 Um, no, I'll tell you after I guess yours. So, I think [laughs] You brought this up. What I should say to the listeners, you, you brought this up. This is, uh, I wasn't thinking about this at all. 1:57 Because we've never met in person. Yeah. Okay. I think that you're five, 10, but you tell people you're five, 11. I am six two. No. I'm six two. That's crazy. That's what Cara said. That's so insulting. 2:11 That's what Cara said. My friend Cara was like, "No, no, he's tall, Daisy," and I was like, "No." I can't believe you think I'm five, 10. 2:17 No offense to, you know, the five tens out there, but- That's a big swath of the population, Francis. It is. Our whole listenership just- Is five-... frigging dropped off... our whole listenership is five dead. 2:28 Well, I am five nine, but typically probably more functionally close to five, 10 or five, 11- Mm-hmm... 'cause I'm often wearing a heel, so. Yeah. 2:36 Uh, once a year- I have to wear a heel as well, so someti- you know, functionally- Oh... I might be six three. Okay. All right. S- you know, just, uh, might as well. Six two. Wow. I can't belie- I can't believe. 2:50 You know, this is actually something- You don't have an Instagram, Francis. I do. It's just private. Mm. Okay. Um, no- We can trade, we can trade handles after this. 3:00 The last time, see, the last time this happened as well, I- Oh, well, of course you do 'cause you watch fucking Reels. Yeah. Well, okay. Okay. But- All right. Sorry... 3:08 so the last time this happened as well, somebody, people also thought I was shorter than I am, which I think is something I need to... 3:14 That's like, that's like a worrying thing that I need to, you know, look in the mirror and think about, how people think I'm shorter than I am. 3:20 Have you ever considered putting more attractive photos of yourself on the internet? I, well, those are on my, those are on my Instagram. I do, you know, I do have plans to... 3:30 I need some better photos of myself on Twitter and LinkedIn. I'll, I'll say that. I mean, I didn't say it, you did. Yeah. Anyways, I was, we're, we recorded the last episode a few days early because- Mm-hmm... 3:42 I was in Maine when we would usually record it, and you are on record as a big Maine head. Um- Totally. This is the first time I've been to Maine. I'm going to say that it, it was nice, 3:58 but I think it's a little over-hyped. Okay. Well, sometimes your first time isn't everything that it's cracked up to be, but your second and third time- Is, it will be great... or even your fourth time- Okay... 4:10 could be mind-blowing. Here's, here's my one, here's my one takeaway, actually. Okay. Um, I did, obviously I, I had a lobster roll. I think it was- That's so good... 4:17 for two lobster rolls I think we paid 70 bucks, which I think is a little more inflated than usual. Mm. Um- Where were you? This was in Northeast Harbor. Okay. Yeah, at Beal's Lobster Pier. Um- I would say, 4:34 yeah, I think that is above market. Like, I still think you can get them for 25. Well, here's my thing. I think actually that's the right price. I think they should be $35 each. 'Cause you're a farm boy. Yeah. Yes. 4:47 You know, the, those, those lobstermen- Farm boys and fisher boys- Those lobsters that are out there-... solidarity... working so hard. Yeah. Yeah, they are. And, you know, so are the people in the restaurant. Yeah. 4:56 I think that a lobster roll should be $35, and- Okay... you should only get one once every two years. I saw this tweet the other day- Oh... that was like- Mm... 5:03 steak at Costco, and it was like $100 pack of steak at, at... It was like $16 a pound, prime rib eye, whatever, something like that. Mm-hmm. 5:11 And the person tweeting it was tweeting it as if, like, "This is way too expensive," like, "Steak should not be this expensive." Um, which it should. But it was like a- That's actually cheap... a nice rib eye. Yeah. 5:20 Yeah. Exactly. I was like... No, I think people, I think things should be the true cost, obviously. Um, I- Tastes just like it costs. [laughs] Incredible callback. It does. Many things in life taste just like they cost. 5:31 Um, and, or the best things do, I guess. The best things. Mm-hmm. The best things in life, some say they're free, some say they are $35. [laughs] Uh, quote unquote. And you only get them ev- once every two years? 5:43 Once every two years. What's wrong with you? Yes. It's duality. Are you an ascetic, too? No. I do like, I do like to suffer, though. You know, I think- No, me neither... 5:52 I didn't, I wasn't raised religious, but, like, my, my dad's side is Catholic, my mom's side is Jewish. Mm. So they both abandoned it. But I think, I think I inherited both types of guilts. Suffering and guilt. 6:04 Yeah.Good sense of humor. Yeah And, uh- You said it. Yeah. Strong aesthetic sensibility. Uh, and you're a Virgo. Mm-hmm. Mm. Birthday's coming up. Yeah, it's, uh, it- When is your birthday? 6:19 It is, I will say it is in exactly two weeks from today. I mean, I can't do that math in my head, Francis. We'll be recording a podcast, uh, when it happens, on the day. This is so Virgo. This is, like- What, to know-... 6:34 I'm not gonna give you too much information- To know, to know facts, to know what day it is... because I don't want you to make a big deal out of it... two weeks from now? 6:39 And what if, and what if I come on this mic and I'm wearing a hat, and- [laughs]... you know- What's the hat?... I have a kazoo? Well- A- It would have to be a dirt hat, obviously... a maybe, and a birthday hat. Yeah. 6:51 Maybe I sing you one of the worst songs of all time- Oh, my God... according to some people. It can't be- The birthday song. Okay. Well, wait, okay, I do wanna talk about this. Um- It can't be worse than your singing. 6:59 It can't be worse than my singing, which Tom specifically did not take out, even though I told him to take it out. That's why I always listen in advance, Francis. Yeah. Look- I always listen before it goes out... 7:09 it's a treat for our listeners, I think. It was not, it was a trick. It wasn't a treat. It was a trick. [laughs] Let's be, [laughs] let's be clear. Well, it makes, it makes you look good by, by not singing. 7:16 But okay, I wanna talk about the Dirt- I showed restraint. [laughs] I showed remarkable restraint... I wanna talk about the Dirt worst song piece, um, and the conversation around it, so this is- Are we there yet? 7:23 We skipped Vermont. Well- We're not doing Vermont... we don't need to talk about Vermont. Um- Okay, fuck Vermont. Uh, okay. Moving- I actually like, I think I like Vermont more than Maine for now- Ooh... 7:31 let the record show. Whoa, whoa. Um, but- Whoa... but I d- but I wanna talk about the, about the worst song piece now that we're talking about it. Happy birthday song. Okay, okay. 7:37 Um, so this is a thing that you guys do, like, I, once every three months or so, where it's this, like, friend of the, friend of the soil- Honestly, when the spirit moves me... friend of the newsletter. 7:47 And I have to tell you about my controversial one that I keep threatening to do, but I think is kind of inappropriate. 7:53 And I did tell T- Paul about it on the record for the New York Times, and he did not put it in the piece. Which is a, is that a good thing or a bad thing that he, like, do you want it to be secret? 8:01 I didn't know which way he was gonna go with it. So this is a prompt that is, like, I keep threatening to do it, but I, I think it's, like, kind of not appropriate. 8:08 Well, wait, let me say, let me just say quick, for any listeners who aren't familiar with this, this is like- Oh, yeah... 8:12 every few months, Dirt will do a piece where it's like you text like 20, 30 people for, like, whether it's, like, uh, what's better, to desire or be desired, was a big one a few months ago. Mm-hmm. 8:21 Yeah, what is better, Francis? And this one, um, it is to desire. I just told you I'm, I'm, like, Catholic and Jewish. Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. You know, so obviously it's to desire. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. 8:31 Uh, but, um, it's to suffer. Uh, I actually think that's, like, what underpins all of life. Not a Buddhist, clearly. [laughs] Um, no. 8:36 Um, anyways, but yeah, it's this, these pieces where you guys, like, crowdsource hot take. It's a hot take crowdsource, friend of- Yeah, yeah... friend of the newsletter. So we- I think we call them Dirt prompts. 8:45 I don't, I mean- Dirt prompts. Well-... it's, I don't know-... you can market that better... like, I think we call them. I made them up. I don't know. So okay. 8:51 [clears throat] I have this, like, fake one that I bring out sometimes, which is if you crashed your car- [laughs]... nobody got hurt. Have you ever? Nobody died. I've never crashed my car. Me neither. 9:05 I probably will now that I said that, and I've never gotten a ticket. [knocks on wood] Can you believe that? I just knocked on wood. I think the listener can hear that. Knocked on wood for you. 9:12 I thought that was my neighbor. You've never gotten a ticket? Well, me neither. 9:15 I did appreciate that Tom, Tom cut out my neighbor doing, like, shave and a haircut two bits on his floor at the end [laughs] of the last podcast. Why did he do that? That was kind of rude of the neighbor. 9:25 I don't know if he even knew that we were- Okay, wait, wait, wait. But wait, okay- He might have heard me down here and was like, "I'm gonna say hi"- That's kind of what I thought it was... 'cause we're friendly. 9:32 I thought it was Ca- I thought it was on Casey's side. No, it was my neighbor. Yeah. It was my neighbor. [laughs] Okay, but if you crash your car, what's the thing? Okay, so I can't emphasize enough, nobody dies. 9:42 Everyone's fine, but you're- Aesthetic damage... stuck and you can't get out right away, and the song that you're listening to is looping. Mm. What song would you want it to be? What song would I want it to be? 9:55 I'll tell you what Paul said, I'll tell you what I said, and then you gotta tell me your answer. Okay. 10:01 So well, w- is this, like, so it's like when the, the rescuer finds me or the bystander comes, and it's like how do I wanna be perceived as I'm, like, trapped inside my car, basically? Well, yeah. 10:13 And like, what, and how, I mean, your self-perception too. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. This is a hard one. I- I know, because it's not necessarily your favorite song, right? Yeah. 10:25 It's, I, [laughs] I mean- [laughs] See, I don't drive. I, I haven't had a car, I haven't, like- Oh, do you know how to drive? I do know how to drive. I mean, I- Okay... but I, like, I- Did you learn on a tractor? No. 10:36 Uh, no. Actually, that's a whole nother thing we don't need to get into. But, um- We do. We might. Well, okay, I'll say really quick, um, 10:44 my dad told me, speaking of my birthday, my dad told me he was gonna teach me how to drive the tractor on the farm- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm... for, on my 10th birthday. Okay. Never did. 10:53 Didn't actually do it until, I think I was, like, 27. Um- Insane trust issues. Yeah. 17 years of trust issues. I mean, 17 years of trust is- but, uh, you know, I might not be talking to you if he had. 11:03 I always wonder if I actually would've, you know, gone, like, the take over the farm route, um- Oh... if he'd done that. But I didn't, he didn't, and I didn't. That's deeper than I was thinking. Okay. 11:13 But okay, but the point is, I do know how to drive, but that's why I haven't, like, you know, three, the past three city... I haven't had a car since high school, you know, when I would have to- Yeah... 11:20 like, eight miles from school, I'd have to drive to school. Um, so I love not driving but, you know, drove to Maine, rented a car. What were we even listening to? 11:28 Um, I was listening to the new Physical Therapy, Patrick Holland- Okay... Daymaxing EP, so- I haven't heard it yet... you know, kind of like chill but driving house-ish. Mm. 11:42 Um, more so though I listen to podcasts when I drive. Mm. So I think what I would be listening to would be [laughs] this podcast. Um- Don't say it. No, I wouldn't actually be doing that. Say it. 11:53 I'd probably be listening to the Totally Football Show podcast, to be hon- Okay... and honest with you. That's respectable. That's, that's my favorite podcast these days. 11:59 So Paul said that he would be listening to Float On by Modest Mouse. I think I incited him a little bit though, because I'm pretty sure there's a car crash in that song. There is, yeah. 12:08 And I said I would be listening to the Thong Song by Sisqó. Do you listen, do you, okay. Do you listen to that song though?How often? I mean, once every two years. [laughs] Tastes just like it sounds. 12:21 And only, only on the tractor. Sounds just like it costs. Um... Mm. Mm. Okay. Moving on. Okay, but wait. But so going back from that, um- Worst song. Ever. No. Yeah, the worst song. Yeah. Worst song. 12:33 So I was just- So what is the worst song, Francis? I... So it was, it was represent- I, I mean, I- Your choice was in the article. I was not asked to be in the article. No, of course not. 12:44 Um, uh, but, you know, my friend texted me. Who- Who? Um, I don't think you know him. Uh, my friend Aman texted me and asked, "How do I get in these articles?" I was like, "Are you- you... I'm not... How do... 12:57 I can't help you get in this art- Daisy didn't even ask me to be in this article." Um, which, you know- That was an oversight. I apologize... far be it from me to make editorial demands. Yeah. 13:06 Uh, but it was Happy by Pharrell was represented in there. Yeah. Ugh. I hate that song. I think it is so- It's a pretty bad song... bad, so cynical. 13:14 I think it's like, I don't know, not in a way that like a pop song can just be like, you know, annoying. Like, I ju- I think it's like an evil, evil song. I hate it. Yeah. Evil. 13:26 But the other one that I was reminded of the other day is that, what was that Portugal The Man song from- Mm. Feel, I Can Feel It Still. 13:32 I hate that song too, but that's more in just like a way, like I hate a- Did you just sing on this podcast? Yeah. God, I need to stop. Um, I might do more accent impressions later. Um- More demure. 13:42 You know what I did that was very demure? I don't wanna move on from this yet, but I've had a terrible cough. I, I pre, um, unpacked like two [laughs] I pre-unwrapped two cough drops- [laughs]... 13:52 and I just have them sitting next to me if I need them. Very mindful. Very cutesy. Mm-hmm. Very respectful. Um, so my choice is Hotel California, and I... That also is like, um, other people have that choice as well. 14:04 Mm-hmm. Um- Are you a big Steely Dan fan? This one, I think, popped off the most of any. I do love Steely Dan. Me too. I actually did not know about- The beef... that history. Yeah. 14:13 Yeah, no, I didn't know about the beef. Um, I love Steely Dan. We can talk about that sometime. We, we can. Um, but so this was the most popular Dirt... What, what do you call it? I see, I can't even remember. 14:24 I think so. It wasn't a catchy term. I mean, desire be desired did pop off, but I think- Yeah... this won. More Dirt props. I don't know. Dirt props. 14:31 I don't know what our next one is yet, actually, so text me if you have ideas. I mean, we... The obvious one would be best song, but I just think it's- That's... No... not gonna hit the same. 'Cause you want... 14:39 No, you want drama, you want like hot take, like worst song. It... You need- Mm... the negativity. It's not even negativity. You need the criticism. Oh, here's the Catholic in you. Yeah. 14:47 No, but you, you, you need like a... You need something to disagree on. You need something to disagree. Yes. That's what Twitter's about. Yes. And it popped off on Twitter. 14:53 That is what- So Twitter's about disagreement... that is what Twitter is about. Yeah. The disagreement app. It is. It is. X, the disagreement app. X. 15:00 You know, you know, I, uh, I think I saw a tweet from Elon the other day where he called it X/Twitter, which I thought was just pathetic. Uh, he's like... Yeah, I mean, right. Yeah. Yeah. 15:12 Did it bring you a lot of new subscribers or anything, or was it just like a... I mean, like on the newsletter, or was it just like a, you know- Yeah... teach one? I would say, I mean, New York Times bump, itty-bitty. 15:22 Mm-hmm. Worst song of all time bump. Huge. Huge. Huge. [laughs] They're still rolling in. So, um- That's amazing. Yeah. Um, okay. Uh, let's talk about this cozy tech article- Yeah... that you sent me. 15:35 So I was not familiar with this, with this writer, uh, Venkatesh Rao. Venkatesh Rao. Yeah. Really good stuff. I- 4,200 words... I actually, I pay for Ribbon Farm. I get a lot out of it. Mm-hmm. 15:45 I don't always read it in real time, but, um- You forwarded this to me like a week ago. I didn't read it until an hour ago. Well, and who can say if I read the full thing ever? 15:55 [laughs] It, uh- But thank you for, uh, pulling out the best passages for us. I, yeah. Well, see, that's the thing. It's really dense. So this, this guy, he's been writing this blog, Ribbon Farm, for s- for 17 years. 16:09 Um, and then he's been doing this newsletter version, I guess, for like five years, I think it- Mm... I think he said. Um- Mm-hmm... but reading it, it's really... It's kind of like dense philosophy to read it. 16:19 Like, it's, it's like he's referencing all these other ideas. Well, I think he's, he's self-referencing stuff- He is. A lot... that he's already laid out. 16:25 So the experience of reading the newsletter is like this kind of cumulative education- Yeah... of these threads, which, I mean, we do in Dirt as well, but our ideas are just not as heady. Not as dense as the... Yeah. No. 16:36 Right. It's like deep, deep, like tech ideology. Right. 'Cause if you've never heard somebody compare tech to like the Cambrian explosion or whatever, like- Yeah... 16:44 he has a very evolutionary theory of tech, which is not- Mm. It's really interesting... how... Yeah. It's really compelling, I should say. Yeah. But I, I definitely like... 16:52 I was like, "Damn, I'm not getting everything out of this that I could be." But I think he also, like every- I don't think you're giving yourself enough credit. No. Well, I got... I... Look, I got plenty out of it. 17:00 But every 1,000 words... It's 4,200 words. I- Yeah... I put it in wordcounter.com, my favorite website. Um, [laughs] and very Virgo of me, no? Uh- You know you can just get like a, a browser extension for that. 17:12 That would disrupt my entire- Okay... way of- All right... being online. Um- You do you, baby. Maybe I should. Uh, okay. But anyways, like every thousand words, he, he says like, "Okay, so what is cozy tech?" 17:26 And then he gives- Mm... a different definition. Um, and it's... You c- kinda hard to define succinctly. Good bet. Good bet. But I'll read, I'll read one definition from near the beginning. 17:35 It says- That stood out to me as well. Yeah. "Cozy tech isn't y- a prescription or a description or a singular subculture. 17:42 It is, rather, an interesting reachable equilibrium that a whole constellation of alt tech subcultures, each individually perhaps delusional, but collectively rational, are driving towards and might actually reach." 17:57 Um, and I think the one other thing- I agree... to add context is he talks about these capital T tech eras versus background tech eras, where the capital T tech eras- Right... are these like concentrated, you know, like, 18:11 I don't know, innovation driven, where it's like all this energy. 18:14 Like, what, what we're in now, where it's like this super tech heavy culture, whereas technology is something that's always existing and developing in the background. 18:23 But I think he said like he sees like the past 200 years as being 20% capital T tech, 80% background tech. Um-So that's kind of, I don't know, the, the groundwork. Mm. Mm. 18:34 I mean, okay, my layman's understanding, I could be wrong, is like I think he's talking about, um... 18:44 This is like less so the last 200 years, I would say more the last, um, 20, where tech has been truly global. Mm-hmm. 18:53 You know, we had this idea, software eating the world, and it's not different softwares in different markets, it's the same software. Capital S Software. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's meant to scale everywhere. Mm-hmm. 19:06 And I think for people who came up during this time period, um, you're around 30. I'm a little older, I'm 33. We don't, we can't really remember a time before technology was global- No... 19:20 or the aspiration of any technology company was to be truly global. Um, and cozy tech is tech that develops more in specific pockets and specific markets for specific functions. 19:31 Um, I mean, that's the best way I can understand it outside of the capital T and lowercase T rubric. And the interesting thing that he talks about in predicting- Mm-hmm... 19:44 this transition into like lowercase t and more background-heavy tech is he says something that's so... I mean, it's very confident. Mm. 19:55 I like it 'cause I identify with his mindset a lot, where he's like he gives all of these conditions, and he's like- Yeah... "I actually don't have to be right about all of this. I only have to be right about like one." 20:05 And I think that's true because even those of us that don't work inside the technology industry, we can sense this happening. Well, let me, let me read off these, these conditions that he's saying too. Yeah. 20:15 So there's four conditions. Uh, he says that the harnessed force condition is failing. Moore's law troubles. 20:21 There's, there's at most another 10 years and maybe 40 times improvement headroom left, and then the music stops. Second is that systemization is starting to break. I'm not gonna read all these. They're so long. 20:31 Uh, third is that, um, right now political, economic conditions for this, you know, tech world we're in right now are still positive, but that might change. 20:40 And then lastly he says that cultural conditions are arguably broken, uh, because Silicon Valley is no longer a good environment for creating multi-generational path-dependent compounding results, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. 20:51 I'm not gonna read it all. But yeah, he's saying that only one of these has to break. Only one of these four things has to break. Yes. 20:58 And I also think, uh, young founders today, they don't really wanna create the next Facebook. Mm-hmm. They've seen like the double-edged sword of truly global networks, truly global technology. 21:14 Um, this generation is more values-driven, and I think the stuff that we're seeing come out of it, like I knew we were gonna talk about cozy tech. 21:23 Um, I actually didn't recognize the names of the companies that he lists off in the beginning, but- Mm-hmm... as I was falling asleep last night, I saw something on my timeline and I texted it to you. 21:33 It was called Tiny Pod. And you and I both had the same experience where we're clicking through the site. The site's very well done. It's like, you know- Beautiful scrolling dynamic situation... it's a scrolling dynamic. 21:43 I mean, it's showing you something that looks like an old iPod, basically. This new product. Yeah. Mm-hmm. This, it looks like an old iPod if an old iPod- Mm-hmm... was a phone. Right. 21:50 And it's showing all the stuff that you can do on it. And my... I'm like looking at this being like, how are they not gonna get sued by Apple? I don't understand. 21:57 And you get to the end of the flow and you realize it's a case that goes around an Apple Watch. The screen that you're looking at and the apps that are available- It's just an Apple Watch... that's your Apple Watch. 22:07 Yeah. And it's a modification on it that adds a scroll and gives it basically the same dimension as a phone. And I was like, "That is genius." And to me, what makes that cozy tech is like 22:23 we're not trying to disrupt Apple. We've created essentially an appendage, but it draws really heavily on nostalgia for older Apple products in a way that Apple has sort of forced, forcibly had to move on from. Mm-hmm. 22:36 Um, because of market dynamics, whatever. Like, uh, unless, you know, maybe they take back and they, they produce it again at some point. But, um, there isn't like a new untapped market for an iPod right now. Mm. 22:54 There's some people that'll buy it out of nostalgia, and there's some young people that'll buy it out of novelty, but it's not like, um, "Oh, man," like, "if we bring the iPod back today, we could make like billions of dollars in Latin America." 23:05 Like, the market just doesn't work that way anymore. So you see like these pockets of like stuff popping up that's like, um- Well, okay, let me say, I, so I- Tiny Pod isn't, Tiny Pod isn't new. Yeah. 23:18 I didn't, I didn't think it was genius though. It's not really an innovation. I- Yeah... yeah, it's not... 23:21 That's why, 'cause it's like it's just like, like you still, like to me w- when I'm scrolling through, I'm like, "Okay, this is cool because it's about like getting you not, getting you less addicted to your phone." 23:32 It's like here is- Mm... a lo-fi phone. And I have a friend who has like, like it looks like a tiny i- iPhone that's like, I don't know. Mm. Like, it's like an inch by like two in... 23:43 It's like, it's a little bigger than that. Mm. But it's so small. Um, and like it's, it runs on Android I think, but it's like, it's like not as pleasant to use as an iPhone. Not a light phone. It's not a light phone? 23:53 No. Uh, it might be. I don't, I don't know what it's called. Okay. But, um, but the point is like I thought this was that. And I think, I, I mean, I still have an iPhone. 24:00 I use it, but I thought that was cool because it's like harder to use and annoying. Um, like h- h- actually, have you ever put your iPhone, I imagine you have an iPhone, to like grayscale settings? No. 24:11 You know, it's, it's weird. I think this is a personality thing for me. I, I don't play games with myself around it. [laughs] Like, I don't... Benny, Ben, my husband, he just got a brick- Yeah... um, for the phone. 24:24 That's the thing you lock it in. Mm-hmm. You lock your phone in it, right? You just tap it and it locks you out of a predetermined apps. Yeah. I, I mean, I think that's brilliant. 24:32 I think for me I have this weird like-I think it's like a thing around suffering, like with you, where it's like I have this sense that like my discipline should be such that I- Yeah... should not need, um, 24:45 tools for self-control. Yeah. And I have this sense that like if I use a brick or I play games with making my phone harder to use, that I will have already lost. Mm-hmm. That being said, like- I, I agree with you. 24:58 Yeah... two years ago I was like, "I wanna tweet less." I took Twitter off my phone. I log in on Safari- Oh... on my phone. Well, it certainly doesn't help you tweet less. Which makes it less pleasant. 25:09 But no, of, of course not. No, I just got used to it. Yeah. And so I think I have... I think it's an ego thing for me, where- Mm-hmm... 25:17 it's like I can't admit that I need help with self-control, so I won't use any of these tools. So I mean, fortunately, like I don't have a more addictive personality so- Mm-hmm... than I do, so it, it's generally okay. 25:32 But, um, yeah, I don't think there's anything wrong with using these tools. I think they make a l- a lot of sense to have. And, and to be- Yeah... honest, like TinyPod looks really cool, and Ben's been offering- Well-... 25:42 to buy me an Apple Watch- Okay... for a long time. That's something to ask. So I'm like, maybe I want it. Yeah. I don't know. Maybe I want it. Do you have... Do you wear like a watch normally? 25:50 Well, this is a whole other story. Um, I lost my watch, um- Mm-hmm... in November. November 2023. I have... I went through my phone to see the last- That's almost a year ago... photo of me wearing it. Yeah. I know. 26:02 I think... I thought I would find it when I moved, and I didn't. And so I sort of... I... First, I didn't have it in the category of lost. I was like, it's simply misplaced. Mm-hmm. And I'm still like, "I'll find it. 26:14 I'll find it." Um, I don't think that I left it somewhere that's not my house h- in here or in Maine. But you've, you've moved since, right? I've moved since. I think it's in a pocket somewhere. Yeah. 26:28 But I went through all my pockets. So this watch was really meaningful to me. I bought it as a present for myself after I had a piece in The New York Times Magazine. They pay very generously. They pay like $2 a word. 26:41 Oh, wow. And it's a Grand Seiko, which is an amazing Japanese brand. It's lovingly [laughs] crafted. It, it meant a lot to me. Yeah. Yeah. And, um, I don't know where it is. That's what watches are about, right? Meaning. 26:53 Yeah. Um, so the watch that I actually was wearing in The New York Times profile has an interesting story around it as well. That's a vintage Longines watch with an inscription. I bought it. It has... It was pre-owned. 27:05 It has an inscription, um, on the back of the face that says, "To Harry from your plant friends." [laughs] Uh-huh. And I wrote a piece... 27:14 Or I did a podcast at one point where I had a bunch of my friends write short stories about who Harry was on the watch. Mm. And then I posted them on my watch Instagram, which was very fun. I have a watch Instagram. 27:23 Oh, okay. Um, and I've written about that one. So I wore the Longines in the photo, um, 'cause I wanted to be wearing a watch, 'cause I think watches are very cool. But long story short, I've never owned an Apple Watch. 27:35 I don't like the aesthetics of them. I recognize that they're convenient. Mm-hmm. But would I buy one to be part of a TinyPod? Like, like maybe. Yeah. I'm, I'm really curious about it. 27:45 Well, but then would you leave your, would you leave your iPhone at home? 'Cause to me, that... 27:48 It only is interesting if you're d- it, it's actually to me only interesting if you get rid of your iPhone and you just have the- I could... I don't think-... the TinyPod... I can get rid of my iPhone. 27:57 Can, can you like respond to emails on it or only read them? I'm su- I'm sure you can, but you probably have to like Siri dictate. But then it's like, but then it's like you, you know, then you have to use your computer. 28:07 But I think that's the hard part. Yeah. Like both of us, like you know, our, our, our work is all about being on the internet in many ways and, and using... you know, and emailing, et cetera. 28:17 Um, so it's like you kind of have to. You can't like opt out, at least for us, right- Yeah... of having the iPhone- Yeah... or having the smartphone. I know. 28:28 And, and there really isn't any benefit for me to being less communicative. Mm-hmm. That's the problem. Like, um- Well, wait. Let me- It's- Let me drop in another quote here from The Cozy Tech- Okay... 28:40 that I liked that I think is very relevant to where we've taken this. Um, this comes near the end. 28:44 He says, "Technology isn't technology unless it is unbridled, unrestrained, and unaligned, quote, unquote, to some degree, periodically forcing us to destroy and remake our understanding of ourselves. 28:59 The point of technology, as far as I'm concerned, is to create and subject ourselves to a co-evolutionary pressure. First we make our tools, and then our tools make us, and that's a good thing." Um, that's true. 29:12 I actually... This aligns really well with an interview I did with a philosopher named Don Ihde. Um, I did this for Guernica like maybe five years ago. Mm-hmm. 29:22 And his, you know, his whole philosophy was like we make technology, but technology makes us. Yeah. You know, it's not just computers. It's like a pencil. Like even- Oh, totally... 29:30 he talked to me about how like when you're using a pencil, you're acting on the pencil- Well, that's what-... but it's also acting on you... that's what he's talking about. Mm-hmm. 29:35 That's what, um, in The Cozy Tech essay too. He's like talking about- Yeah... like the pencil is background technology. Mm-hmm. Like when it's just like- Mm-hmm... 29:42 you know, however many years and you're using a pencil, that's like lowercase T technology era. Yeah. Yeah. 29:47 And the, this interview that I did with Don Ihde, um, which he then included in one of his future books, which I was so honored by. Oh, okay. Um, he, he... 29:57 We were specifically focusing on medical technology actually and medical imaging. Mm. That the ability to see the inside of our bodies changed our understanding of our bodies. Oh, right. 30:06 Like the ability for you to see your brain, the ability for you to see your heart. Um, and I've always... I, um, that interview has stuck with me- Mm... for a long time. So I, I am very aligned on this. 30:16 But I also think like unbridled is a very loaded term, right? Like- Yeah... um, it's kinda funny, like- I almost don't know what he means by saying it un-... Like- Well, also like-... no limitations. 30:29 No, like his name says unrestrained. What does he mean by unbridled here? Well, and it's like we're co-evolutionary with animals. Do we let them be unbridled? No. We like up- We bridle them... 30:37 we've oppressed- They're the same... we've oppressed every other species. Yeah. [laughs] We've domesticated every other species, so the idea that we wouldn't domesticate a computer or AI is like kinda crazy. 30:46 Like they don't even have souls. Yeah.Oh, well That is interesting... I mean, do animals have souls? Do we wanna do that? No, I don't wanna do that. 30:53 Um I don't know why, we don't have to do that right now I think they do though. I think they probably do. Mm. Well, uh, no, 'cause then it's like, well, do like, you know, do mosquitoes have souls? 31:00 What do you think the worst song is to an animal? To an animal? Um, [sighs] It's gotta be Happy Birthday also. No, I'm gonna guess it's... Well, I'm just gonna say, like, noise music as a genre. 31:17 Do you know the Beatles song that at the end has a really, really, really high-pitched noise? Mm. It's one of the songs- No... on Sgt. Pepper, but I can't remember which one it is. No. 31:26 I used to- But- I used to know every Beatles song by heart, uh, but I haven't listened to them in a long time. Well, you're no longer a... S- What is it? A child. No, no, no. A completionist? Completist? 31:37 [laughs] Completist. You're no longer a completist. Completionist, no, completism. Completism would be, um, you know, accepting only listen to like, only listening to, like, some Beatles songs. 31:47 I'm no longer a completionist. I'm a, a completionist in recovery. Okay. Yeah. Sure. 31:51 Well, okay, so the end of the song, there's a really, really high-pitched noise that supposedly only dogs could hear, but I swear to God, I heard it one time, and it was horrible. [laughs] Uh, it was really bad. Yeah. 32:05 Do you have a- But also as- Do you have a dog? No, you don't have a dog. No, I wish I had a dog. I just- You wish you had a dog? I don't wish I had a dog. Why? I, I mean, like, the responsibility. 32:16 I, I live in- No, no, but the-... New York, an apartment in New York... if you remove the responsibility, do you wish that you had one? Like, the reason you don't is 'cause the responsibility. 32:22 No, I like having access- That's why I don't have one... to a dog. I had one growing up. Yeah. Um. Yeah. But like that, you know, [sighs] yeah, you could, you could call that cozy dog ownership, one word. 32:32 Uh, 'cause it was on, it was on the farm, so the dog just runs around. The dog was unbridled. Yeah. The dog [laughs], the dog was unbridled. Wait, okay, last thing, last thing. Can I... Wait. Wait, go ahead. Go ahead. 32:40 No, you go. I did have a, another last thing. Um- Okay... so- [laughs] Two last things. This is an example of cozy tech. Or- Mm-hmm... in the article, um, the founder called it calm tech. Yeah. 32:51 I interviewed, um, for Dirt, this was back in April. I interviewed Anjan Khatta, who is, uh... has a company called Daylight Computer Company, about a Daylight tablet. Oh, Daylight. They've got the tablet, yeah. Mm-hmm. 33:05 It looks cool. You know, the, the marketing campaign- Mm... the videos for Daylight, great. The marketing was very good. So- Yeah... this is actually not a modification of something that already exists. 33:14 This is an innovation, which I wasn't- Yeah... sure about when I reached out to him. It's like, for those who do, it's like, it's basically like a tablet. 33:19 Like, but more like, um, more like an e-reader almost in the way it looks, but it's like- Mm-hmm... kind of grayscale, and you can, like, see the screen in light. It's- Yeah... it's like trying to push forward. 33:31 Well, I wanna explain the- Yeah... specifics of it. Sorry. 'Cause I actually think it's very interesting. So your phone is sort of like a flashlight. Mm-hmm. Light emits from your phone. 33:40 It goes through the layers of the phone, and the colors, and, you know, it displays the colors as we see them, right? And then if you have a Kindle or an, an e-reader that is, um, doesn't emit light- Mm-hmm... 33:56 it absorbs light, most likely the technology is something similar to e-ink, which is, like, proprietary. So, like, Daylight is not using e-ink. They're using a different process. 34:05 But your Kindle historically, or an e-reader which absorbs light, and that's why it's easier on your eye- Mm-hmm... um, has not been fast enough to run apps. To, like, render images. So you cannot go on- Yeah... 34:17 the internet on that screen, or if you can, it's really slow. Some other companies do this, but it's not slow. I mean, it's not fast. Yeah. 34:24 So what they are offering is this same absorption screen, absorptive screen- Yeah... but with the innovation that makes it fast enough to run apps. That's, that's how it was explained to me. Yeah. 34:39 That, that feels like cozy tech. So that's different from Tiny Pod. It's cozy, but somebody... They had to improve the tech that already exists. Yeah. It's not putting a case around an Apple Watch. Yeah. The... 34:49 Okay, so the word, the word cozy here too I think is, is kind of confusing. Like, when you first sent me this, this cozy tech article- Mm... 34:57 and I, like, opened it up and I started reading it, I was like, "Oh, now I'm gonna... Uh, this is gonna take, like, half an hour to read. I, I have to save this for later." I was like, like- I gotta get cozy. 35:04 Right, I gotta get cozy. No, but, but that's not what it's about really. Like, it's- Mm... it's more of, like... It's not, like, cozy in, like, a cutesy way. It's more, like... I don't, I, I, I don't even know. 35:15 Like, uh, okay, one more, one more quote from it. 'Cause he thinks cozy to, like... He's using cozy to talk about scale, not about tech. He's using it to talk about scale. He's using it- Yeah... to talk about scale. 35:25 Like he says here- Yeah... "I imagine cozy tech as a mutualist dissensus of background tech philosophies that are united in one main way: Seeking a viable, emergent alternative to capital T Tech." Mm. 35:36 "One does not need to be... One that does not need to be pure paradigm or philosophically monoculture. That would be to become the very thing you're trying to resist." 35:43 So, I mean, the last thing [laughs], the last thing in this- Philosophically monoculture, I mean, that's global, right? Yeah. Well, he's- Yeah... 35:47 so that, like, he's putting it at, like, the center of this Venn diagram of three things: the maker movement, permaculture- Ah... and open source movement. Mm. All of these things being, like, directly within tech. 35:58 Um, so it's like his point is, like, it's about an equilibrium. Yeah, it's the opposite, it's the opposite of monoculture- Yeah... in a way that, like... I don't know. You read the article. 36:08 This also has a relationship with, like, the hardware resurgence too. Mm-hmm. Because I think a lot of these new niche hardware companies, like Teenage Engineering, for example- Yeah. I-... 36:17 are sort of examples of- Are the great marketers [laughs]. Are the great marketers of hardware. Oh my God, the medieval one, insane. So good. Insane. 36:24 It's one of the things where I was like, "Man, I really wanna buy this for $300," or whatever it is. Use it once for half an hour, and then resell it at a 60% loss on eBay three years later. 36:35 Well, they should let you, like, rent them. Review it for Tyson. They should have Rent the Runway for, like, 30-year-old men- Yeah... in Bushwick that wanted to [laughs] want stuff like Teenage Engineering. They do. 36:46 Well, Rent the Runway for- That probably exists... for [laughs] 30-year-old men in the Bushwick, Ridgewood area is, is just Grailed, I think. Sure, maybe. Have you shopped on Grailed before?Many times. 36:57 And in fact, I have also resold things I grailed. Well, okay, so I couldn't find- At a loss... like half-hour before we were supposed to record, I didn't know where my mic or headphones were. 37:07 I knew Ben had reorganized his desk, but I was like, "Look at my mic. It's huge. Like, where is it? Like, in my house?" Yeah. It's not... I couldn't find it anywhere. 37:15 Um, he had very lovingly nested them in, uh, a Nike Air shoebox [chuckles]- Oh... next to his desk. So I'm like... And there's, like, a lot of the shoeboxes. 37:24 I'm just, like, going through, and I opened the shoebox, and I was like, "Oh, thank God." Um- Mm-hmm... but, uh, yeah. So. That's nice. Sneaker head storage- Yeah... solutions. [chuckles] Um, okay. I wanna talk about... 37:36 I don't... Okay, I don't really wanna talk about this, but I, I do wanna talk about- Well, why talk about it then? 'Cause it's... Okay. Well, I don't wanna talk about demure, mindful, really. 37:44 I don't wanna talk about this either. That turns it. But I do wanna... 37:46 Okay, but the thing I do wanna talk about is, um, I, I was, like, pleasantly surprised when I saw, what was this, um, on August 21st, so like a week ago, uh, Netflix posted a video with the creator, Jools Lebron- Mm-hmm... 37:59 who was doing this, like... You know, it, it, it was just, like, a video of her showing how she'd created a collection on Netflix, and you could browse it. Um- Mm-hmm... 38:09 and, like, whatever about the thing itself, but I felt- Nice... like that was rare to see a company like Netflix, like, quickly hop on this trend and presumably compensate her for, like, coming up with this thing. 38:20 Uh, I was like s- you know, "Okay, that's nice." Like, I'm so tired of hearing people say very demure, very mindful. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I think I might have muted it on Twitter. Uh- Mm-hmm... 38:29 but, um, I thought that was nice. Did you mute me? To- I, I did not. Actually, I didn't mute it. But, um, what I really wanted was the ability to mute it... I think I f- I might have talked about this last time. 38:37 I want the ability to mute words in reels or in TikToks on Instagram. That's what I wanted. Yeah. Mm-hmm. 38:44 Um, anyways, uh, [smacks lip] a couple days later, I saw a tweet or an article saying that Jools Lebron had tried to trademark the phrase- Mm... 38:53 specifically very demure, very mindful, and some guy in Washington State had already trademarked it. Mm. And that was like... 39:02 'Cause at first it was like, okay, this is a, you know, cool, like, this is a meme that's about to die, whatever, uh, but it's cool that she might be making some money off of it. 39:09 That's great, 'cause that usually doesn't happen. Well, okay. I mean, maybe we should have a lawyer write in. We should just have a lawyer on call for this podcast. [chuckles] Yeah. I love a lawyer, just having one. 39:20 Mm-hmm. Just having one. The most expensive podcast [chuckles] in the world. Listen, [chuckles] um, I mean, 39:28 you can make an argument though, like, if you've, if you have notoriety for something and somebody else- Mm-hmm... tries to trademark it under you, like... 'Cause it's like Coca-Cola. 39:35 Like, I mean, they obviously try to think of all possible combinations. Yeah. But, like, if I try to go out and, like, trademark Coke Pomegranate, 'cause for whatever reason- Yeah... 39:46 it's not already in there, I mean, that's a little different 'cause Coke is, like, an existing trademark. But, like- Yeah... I don't know. 39:53 Like, I think if somebody tries to trademark somebody that, something that somebody else already has, like, pretty provable notoriety for- There should be, like, a right of provenance or, I don't know. 40:02 Well, I think that there is. Yeah. But you gotta t- you actually have to figure it out in court. You can't... It's not like- And presumably she's... 40:09 You know, it w- it would, it would, it would cost more in court to figure it out than she would ever make money from, from doing it. Well, potentially, yeah. 40:18 Or you settle with that guy and give him some money to- Mm-hmm... fuck off. But I think, 40:24 you know, I can see in the notes, like, we're talking about this woman, um, and, like, Hawk Tuah, and, like, when is a meme played out is really the question. And, like, 40:35 I think the best thing that brands can do is when these moments come up, align with that creator, but don't force them to keep doing the original bit. Yeah. Oh. Mm-hmm. 40:46 Like, you're like, "Okay, you're an interesting person. What do you actually want to do? What's your actual deal?" Yeah. And... But, you know, so many brands don't do this. 40:58 They don't allow the person to evolve, and they get really stuck in the original meme or identity, which is a shame. 41:04 Well, 'cause the value isn't necessarily the meme itself, it's the audience that the meme built rapidly. Totally. 41:09 And, like, just use that to identify the talent and give them money to do what they actually wanna do, which is not repeat the same word or meme over and over again. Yeah. That's... No, that's really smart, actually. 41:20 I think, I think people fail to do that. Um- Mm-hmm... this... Okay, so this is kind of about memetics. This is how I got to this. Mm-hmm. Are you familiar with Fabrizio Romano? Mm. Refresh me. He... 41:32 So he is, um, the 123rd biggest Twitter account in the world, I understand. Okay. Uh, and he basically is this Italian football, soccer journalist who tweets about transfers. Um, and he tweets a lot. Okay. 41:45 I was looking at the other day, I think he has tweeted in the past 30 days, he's tweeted 2,300 times. Okay. Um, constantly tweeting. He... There's like... 41:53 So there's another guy, David Ornstein, who works for The Athletic. Wait, does he announce transfers first, or is he reacting to them? He does. So he reacts- Okay... and he announces first. But, like- Okay... 42:03 look, I haven't been, like, following the sport for so long. I understand that it used to be more exciting. Like, you know, like- Is he Men in Blazers adjacent? Uh, they do pay him to have a... 42:10 He has a podcast with them, yes. Got it. Um- Okay. So I kinda know who he is. Yeah. But so, so the point is, like, he, yeah, he breaks transfers. He tweets constantly. 42:18 Like, there's this one transfer for Arsenal that's happening right now that- Who?... hasn't, uh, Mikel Merino, hasn't closed yet- Mm-hmm... from Real Sociedad to Arsenal. 42:25 He's tweeted about it 30 times in the past month. Um, point is, though, like, he's got his trademark line too, like, "Here we go." Like, "This transfer's happening," blah, blah, blah. 42:35 Um, and he's doing some real journalism. 42:37 Um, he's often also getting accused of, like, just being paid off by agents to, like, promote a player that, like, why is he talking about, you know, this 17-year-old moving from, like- Mm... 42:47 Charlotte FC to wherever when he never talks about the MLS, whatever. Um, but- So he raises the stock of that person a little bit. He raises the stock of the player- Yeah... and probably helps them get a bigger fee. 42:56 So- Insider trading. Insider trading, yeah. So he's a really interesting figure. 43:01 Um-But more interesting to me right now is these kind of imitators, these, like, twelve-year-old imitators of his who have popped up on Instagram and TikTok. 43:10 The first one-- I, I've-- These are, like, reels I've been getting. Mm-hmm. The first one, this guy must be, like, twelve. Um, his, his-- He's a British kid named W- ah, Winner Chipamba. 43:19 Um- Are we picking on children again? No, I'm not picking on children. I think it's-- This is actually fascinating. Okay. 43:23 Uh, and I think what they're doing is really earnest, but it's like, okay, so he-- this kid has nine hundred and twenty-two thousand as of this recording on TikTok. And then there's this other kid named Winner Lil B. 43:35 Um- Mm. Weird that they both-- I don't think the second one's named Winner, but I feel like the first kid is actually named Winner. Um, and this kid has two hundred and two thousand on Instagram, and they've got- Mm... 43:43 their own, uh, catchphrases. Winner Chipamba says, "There we land," in his reels. Um, and then, ah, Winner Lil B says, "Yes guys, it's official, it's confirmed, the deal is sealed." So, like, all three- Huh... 43:57 of these people have their own sort of, like, meme of, like, within their own thing. 44:02 But to wrap it up a bit, like, what's really fascinating about it to me is, like, there was this interview with the kid, Winner Chipamba, on CBS Sports Golazo, and i- they're saying, like, "What inspired you to start doing this?" 44:14 Um, and one, he said that, like, uh, he has a big family. 44:19 They wanted to go on a vacation to Spain, but they couldn't afford it because the family's too big, so he was, like, trying to find a way to make money, so he started making TikToks. So that's really sweet. 44:27 And then he says- That's sweet... like, um, yeah, obviously I'm inspired by Fabrizio Romano, who's probably the best sports journalist in the world. Which is, like, 44:34 very questionable, but, you know, it's, again, sweet and earnest that this kid is doing it. Uh, but it-- So two things. What's funny to me is that, like, they're, like... Th-they can't be breaking original stuff. 44:46 I think Winner Chipamba, I think I did see one video where, like, a club, a soccer club, actually worked with him to announce a transfer, which was really interesting. 44:55 Um, but I think a Spanish club should do a promotion with him and pay for his entire family to go on a trip to Spain- Of course. I'm shocked-... as a brand deal... it hasn't happened yet. 45:05 I, I-- You know, by the time this podcast is live, it might have. Mm-hmm. Um- I'm gonna say something. 45:11 I think young people, I mean, this is part of just being young, I don't think it's Gen Z specifically, they don't necessarily have the media literacy to understand- No... 45:19 the difference between breaking news and aggregating news for your specific audience. Yeah. They just don't. And that's okay. I think it only becomes a problem when it breaks containment or in certain, uh- Yeah. 45:34 Oh, yeah... like, high misinformation environments. Um, but, like, if you're twelve, yeah, you wanna hear about transfers from another twelve-year-old, not- Yeah... a guy on Twitter. 45:44 Well, I, I think it's sweet too, 'cause it's like this kid is the-- you know, training some muscle or building an audience. Of course. And, like, he's not- Yeah... gonna do this forever. 45:51 Um, and the, the comments are actually so positive, where it's like everyone's like- Mm... "We made the right guy famous," or like, "Yes-" Uh-huh. "... 45:58 there we land," or like, you know, like, famous players from big, like Bruno Fernandes from, uh, Fernan-from, uh, Manchester United is commenting on it like, "There we land." So I don't know. Oh, that's sweet. 46:07 I just thought it was this, like, really sweet thing, but also twisted in that, like, Fabrizio Romano's whole thing is kind of twisted and he's, like, you know, tweeting twenty-three hundred times in thirty days is what? 46:21 It's a lot. Yeah. Anyways. He's a, he's a completist, completionist? [laughs] He is a completionist. He is definitely a completionist. I think last summer I saw a thing where he showed his screen time, and it was like, 46:35 it was like eighteen hours in a day. Oof. Anyways. I'm out there. That might be, that might be Tasteland for today. This was Tasteland. Thank you for tuning in. We will be here next week. See ya. 46:48 [upbeat music] It tastes just like it costs. Honey.
