Transcript 0:00 [upbeat music] Welcome back to Tasteland. I am Francis Zehr. And I'm Daisy Alioto. And Daisy, who are we speaking to today? Today we're speaking with Claire Landsbaum. She's a New York City-based journalist. 0:17 She's the deputy editor of Highsnobiety, uh, and she was previously at The Cut. Uh, before that she was at Vanity Fair when they still had the Hive, RIP. 0:28 Um, and she was also at Business Insider for a while, uh, spearheading a lot of their cool cultural investigations and features. And she's also a friend of mine, and I'm really excited to have her on. Excellent. 0:43 Before Claire joins us, uh, one thing I did last night, I went and saw One Battle After Another for the second time, um, but the reason I saw it twice was- They're, they're calling them Battle Boys. 0:56 [laughs] They're calling them Battle... One screening after another. Um, uh, but, but no, the reason, the reason I went for a second time too, I went with a friend who hadn't seen it, but I tried... 1:03 The first time I went, I tried to go to the VistaVision screening- Okay... at Regal Union Square, right? 1:07 Which there's only three theaters in the coun- in the country doing the VistaVision thing, um, which I'm already, like, cringing at myself for, you know, talking- For the uninitiated, this is, like, a film style It's a, it's a film format that- Yeah... 1:22 they hadn't project- They'd filmed on it more recently. Mm-hmm. Brutalist was filmed with VistaVision, but it hadn't been projected for, like, 50 years. I did see the VistaVision 1:30 screening of Brutalist I think, 'cause I saw it at the Teleport. Well, they didn't screen it in VistaVision. Oh, they didn't screen it in VistaVision. No, they filmed it- Okay... in VistaVision. Okay, okay. 1:37 Um, but what I'll say is, 'cause so the first time I tried to go, the projector was broken. They were having all these issues with it. Last night it was not broken, um, and I will say it was a little bit more colorful. 1:49 Mm. The light was incredible. It was like... I mean, you know, I, the movie was more fun the first time because it was the first time I'd seen it, but, um, yeah. VistaVision, I like it. That is very cool. 2:04 [laughs] Um, I also saw a movie yesterday. Thank you for saying that, Daisy. You're welcome. [laughs] Um, I also saw a movie yesterday. I saw The History of Sound, um- Mm. I hear that's good... 2:14 with Tatum actually, former- Oh, yeah... podcast guest- Mm-hmm... um, and friend of the pod, Katie Hayes, who has not come on the podcast, but, um, [smacks lips] is a fan. So it was really good, very sad. I cried. 2:26 Mm-hmm. Um, there was a Bowdoin College, uh, [smacks lips] a, a f- mention, so I didn't know about that. Congrats. Yeah. Um, cameo, I guess is the word- Cameo... I was looking for, and that was really cool. Mm-hmm. 2:41 And I also brought some stuff to show you that has been sent to my house recently. For the, for the, for the listener, 'cause they can't see this, maybe, maybe I'll do some, um, some, um, some descriptions. 2:51 I'll do some closed captioning as well. Yeah. I know Francis and I have been thinking about doing more structured segments, so I went rogue and decided we're gonna do show and tell today. So- Oh, okay... 3:00 my first thing is this hat. Um, all I had to do was give my phone number and text them hat a bunch of times. But- Mm-hmm... 3:07 this is from Gazetteers San Francisco, which I believe is a media collective for the- For the, for the listener, we're looking at a black hat with a serif typeface, uh, Gazetteer pretty big. Mm-hmm. 3:17 Below it, San Francisco, a little bit smaller. Mm. That's white embroidery, black hat. Everyone was getting those thinking caps from Anthropic, but I really- Mm... imprinted on this one. 3:25 I was like, "I have to have that hat." Mm. Um, just obviously I don't have enough dad hats, so yeah, I- Sticker, by the way, the, the, the, the sticker is still on the brim. 3:34 [laughs] The sticker- Sticker's still on the brim... is still on the brim. I don't know if Daisy is a s- is, like, a sticker on the brim- Well-... type of guy, but... [laughs]... last night I was at the Ambrook office. 3:42 So I thought of you 'cause I was like, when we did the VC-backed farms, we didn't talk about Ambrook, which creates software products for farmers- Mm, mm-hmm... as far as I know. 3:51 I don't really know what that is, to be honest with you. And yeah. Well, we didn't, we didn't get into it, but it could be interesting for you to look at for a follow-up. Um- Mm. 4:00 [tsks] Also, okay, I'm jumping all over the place, sorry. They have merch. They have hats that say American Prosperity on them, so I also- Mm... was like, "Now I want that hat." 4:09 Um, but I think Gazetteer might be a media collective, so maybe good creator spotlight guest. You don't even know what it is? [laughs] No, I do know what it is. Oh. They do local San Francisco news. Okay. 4:21 Sorry, that's what I meant. It's on my blog roll. I read it for Clode. I uploaded something today. They're on Jollibee watch, 'cause San Francisco's getting its first Jollibee. Mm. 4:29 So they're, they're on the Jollibee beat, and the back of the hat says, "News for humans by humans." Interesting. So I thought that was pretty cool. 4:36 Well, and, and that's kind of a- And Ben doesn't know about it yet- That's kind of an anti-... so he hasn't stolen it. Okay. That's kind of an anti-anthropic, um, little text on the back. 4:43 Yeah, I would say- I was gonna say if we're, if we're comparing it-... it's a little anti-... to the thinking cap. This, do you know what this is? Uh, All Girls Be Mine Alone. Mm-hmm. 4:50 It's the second book from Joyland Publishing. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Uh, r- regular listeners will remember star guest Cora Lewis and her book- Yes... Information Age. 4:59 Um, I am not familiar with this new book, though I've seen you post about it on Twitter- Yeah... a bevy of times. It's very different from Information Age, but, like, in a really nice way. 5:09 They're good complements of each other. 'Cause it's not written in fragments. It's a narrative. It's a nested narrative. Mm. 5:14 So the, the book takes place in two parts, and the second part is basically a long story somebody's telling. 5:20 Um, so it is like, it's a queer ghost story, which is how it's being advertised, which was cool, but that makes it sound like a lot more genre, where it's actually... I thought it was very sophisticated. 5:33 There was a lot of references to classical music. It takes place at a music school. Um, I- Who is the subject of, of mine? Who is, whose, whose mine is it? So this line is, it's a lyric from... Who wrote the... 5:48 Oh, Tchaikovsky. So his opera for Peter and the Wolf. Okay. Yes. Mm-hmm. Okay. So I believe this is a line in the opera version. 5:59 It's a translated line from one of the characters in that opera, like, I wanna say the wolf, but- Mm... I could be wrong. Um- Could be Peter... sorry, guys, if I'm butchering that. 6:09 So but there's a lot of, like, references like that in there, and-I thought you would like it because it really captures the atmosphere of being in, like, an Eastern European city. Um, part of it takes place in Vienna. 6:23 Part of it takes place in, I believe, St. Petersburg. But it has that, like, kind of like cold winter, wind whipping outside- Mm. Seasonal... um, ducking into a sort of like, um- A cafe... 6:39 below the street teahouse, having a cigarette and trying to keep your hand warm vibe. Like, I just think it's a perfect read for this time of year, and because it's a novella you can get through it quickly. 6:50 But I just responded to the atmosphere of it so well because I haven't been to that part of the world in, like, a really long time. Mm. And it just made me- You're craving it. Oh, yeah. 6:59 Like, it, it made me wanna go to Vienna, like, so badly. Um, so that's, so that's that. And then last thing, 'cause I know we're running out of time, have you ever seen this book before or photos from it? 7:11 No, so we're looking at the Office Book Design series, Private and Executive Offices. A g- large square book. Yeah. Um, it's kind of a inset photo of an office. Is this the one... Wait, is this the... 7:21 I feel like I've seen stuff on Twitter or something about this recently where it's, like, in the '80s, this photographer went to a bunch of boardrooms and took pictures of their offices. Yeah. This is, this is me. 7:27 It's technically like a textbook. Yeah, it's kind of like Busytown for adults. Yeah. [laughs] So it's a former textbook that's sort of become like an art book. Mm-hmm. And I think it's- And f- okay, an art book. 7:40 Who do you, who do you think are the consumers of this? Is it the Silicon Valley taste crowd? Is it, is it artists? Yeah. Is it creative directors? It's the Rubin heads. Is this the new, is this the new Rick Rubin book? 7:48 Yeah, there we go. It's all of us. I think, like, I had seen it around. It's very Poon-coded. I didn't ask Tyler if he has this. 7:55 [laughs] Tyler's very good about, like, scanning his art books and putting the scans online- That's right... which I forgot you can do. 8:01 But this book, like, it gets curated a lot, so if people know about it and you find it online, they'll be selling it for, like, a lot of money. Mm-hmm. 8:09 But if you just find it in, like, one of the old textbook, like, thrift sellers, then it's, like, priced like an old textbook. So this, didn't even have a photo of it, but since I knew- Yeah... 8:18 what I was looking for, it was very cheap. That's, that's how you find things, by the way. Mm-hmm. My apartment, um, we, we found it on Craigslist, and there was no photos. 8:26 People are afraid to, to, to, you know, venture out of the green fields of StreetEasy- Right... which are really solid and expensive... 'cause I was like, "Why would somebody sell a fake copy of this book?" Exactly. 8:34 Like, if it's a contemporary book and there's no photos, it's like, okay, that's definitely the AI version. But, like, people... Like, it's just, it's kind of like a boring textbook but with incredible photos. Mm-hmm. 8:44 So if, if you're listening and you're looking for this, Google it and the author, and then roll the dice on some of these, like, old thrift textbook sites. 'Cause it's the same fucking book. 8:57 [upbeat music] Wait, so tell me more about this piece that you just wrote for Highsnobiety. Oh, um, that was a front of book story for our September issue. 9:12 Um, it was more a photoshoot first, piece second. 9:18 Um, it was about a bunch of cool New Yorkers who work in the fashion world who like to go bowling as a third space instead of, like, clubbing or, I don't know, whatever else cool young people do in New York. 9:33 'Cause the, the, the bowling alley in question was The Gutter on the Lower East Side. Um, I've never been to that one. I've been to the original Gutter, I think, in Williamsburg. Um, but- Me too... I... 9:42 It's like a bar more than it's like a... Right? They told me about something called a green tea shot, which I had never heard of. Do you guys know what this is? I've heard of that, yeah, but I haven't tried it yet. 9:52 It's, it's alcohol, though, isn't it? Yeah. Sure is, Francis. [laughs] What's in that? It is alcohol. What's in that? [laughs] It's, it's... All I can think in my head is, like, sucking down alcoholic boba. 10:05 Like, it's not- I hate boba... texturally pleasant in my mind, but- Do they make alcoholic boba? They should. 10:11 Yeah, this sounds like this would really hit the intersection of alcoholism- They're, they're called BuzzBalls... and- [laughs]... TikTok food in New York. BuzzBalls. [laughs] Yeah. Yeah, right. Nasty. 10:21 Yeah, but that was, like, a fun look at, um, how a fashion shoot comes together, which is not something I had normally done. Mm-hmm. And I think the way we do it at Highsnob is also pretty low-key. 10:32 Like, we're, we're lo-fi, not necessarily for any reason other than that's how we approach stories. Like, we want it to feel intimate and genuine. 10:42 And so yeah, it was cool to, like, observe that in action and then to write something to go alongside it that felt also kind of intimate and genuine and just quippy. It was actually a fun recall back to, like, 10:55 I took a class in graduate school called, uh, Front of Book [laughs] which was just how to make the front of book of a magazine. 11:03 And it was taught by Nick Marino, who at the time was the longtime front of book editor at GQ, and- Literally my old boss. Yes, I know. Um, so we- Worlds are colliding. Nick was my boss at Hodinkee, Francis. 11:15 Hodinkee, I know. He also, um, uh, tried to hire me at Hodinkee, and then I decided that I didn't know enough about watches, so it- Claire, that was the right decision. 11:27 [laughs] Well, what did he teach you, what did he teach you back in grad school? Um, it, it... basically how to be entertaining in writing in a really concise and targeted way. 11:38 It actually was a really hard thing to learn how to do because in journalism school, which I did attend, they teach you how to interview and how to do, like, how to approach strangers on the street and how to- Mm... 11:50 approach people and talk to people after a traumatic event. Like, I don't know, in Missouri, a tornado. I went to the University of Missouri journalism school, and there were many tornadoes that happened. And, um, 12:02 I also, like, wrote a bunch of obits, which was really sad and specific. 12:08 And I, you know, tried my hand at what I thought was feature writing at the time, which, you know, looking back makes me want to shrivel up and die at my, like, college feature stories. 12:19 But, um-Yeah, no one had ever taught me how to write for the front of a magazine, which is basically like doing really good captions and packaging stuff in a service-y way that's also not repetitive- Mm... 12:34 with like every single front-of-book story that has come before. Because, I mean, to some extent it will be cyclical, but also, like, you don't wanna do the same, you know, red lip beauty trend story. No offense, Stacy. 12:47 Um- No offense taken. Um- For the, for the listener, she's wearing red lips... the ads have come, but just- Okay, but for me, it's not a trend, it's a lifestyle, so. 12:53 No, it's a, it's a lifestyle, and I've, I've known that about you, so I can vouch. 12:58 Um, but yeah, just how to c- how to be original, how to have an original thought is like really difficult, and I think a core tenet of magazine editing, uh, when it comes down to it. 13:10 I saw a viral tweet the other day that was talking about, I think it was this guy, Will Mandes. He was like, "Oh," like, parties have become too much just like cocktail fact listing. 13:21 Like, everyone listens to the same podcast, so people kind of come in- Mm-hmm... with the same cultural observations. 13:26 Which makes me think of that scene in my favorite film, and an excellent fall film, When Harry Met Sally, where they're at dinner and she, uh, the Carrie Fisher character quotes, um, that guy's magazine story to him. 13:39 Like, his observation, which was like... She was like, "Oh, I read somewhere that like restaurants are to the '90s like what theater was to the '80s." And he's like, "I wrote that." 13:48 So Will was basically saying, like, since everyone listens to the same podcast, people show up to a party and they basically will, like, repeat a cultural observation somebody made on a podcast- Mm... 13:58 but it's not original, everyone has the same references. 14:01 It's interesting, 'cause like to me, the art of conversation is like you come in with something interesting to say, but then you respond to the person that's in front of you. 14:09 And so I thought that was a little bit of an oversimplification, but I also wanted to say, like, if you're listening to this podcast and you repeat something I've said on this podcast at a party, you owe me $20. 14:19 [laughs] What's your Venmo? Yeah. Um- Do, well, I mean, who owes who? Uh, we'll put it in the show links. Great. Don't, do, do they owe you for taking your thought, or do you owe them for the free distribution? 14:33 It's a good question. Maybe actually I should pay you if you mention us [laughs] at a party. 14:36 But um, when you said, Claire, when you were talking just now and you mentioned doing things lo-fi, when I read the Styles profile of this sort of like Highsnobiety under Noah, um, because he came in as the editor, like, within the last year. 14:51 That was something that like- In January. Yeah, in January. That's something that I really took away, other than, like, that you looked great and really tan in the photo of you. [laughs] I had no right to look that tan. 15:00 I don't understand why that happened. Maybe it's the flash. But thank you. It was really cool. Yeah. Um, 15:06 that, that was something I really came away with, that that sort of like lo-fi, DIY-ness, not over-polishing everything is like a big part of the ethos that he wants to bring to the magazine. 15:18 Is that something that like he talked about, like when he hired you and he talked about, like, what his goals were? For sure. Um, it's also something that I value because I like journalistic honesty. 15:31 I think that is, um, difficult to find sometimes in the, in the land of glossy magazines and the land of, like, culture and fashion publications, um, especially when you have so many cooks in the kitchen, which is something I'm learning more and more about. 15:47 Um, the publicists, the reps, the photographers, the stylists, like, there's a lot of components, and so it can be hard to, like, cut through all that noise and get a story and get images that feel, um, like close to the bone. 16:00 So yes, that's something he talked to me a lot about, and that, I think, is actually why it made sense for me to join something like Highsnobiety. I've never come from that world. 16:11 It's always been one that I've looked at with starry eyes. Like, I was Devil Wears Prada-pilled from age, like, 13. Um, I'm, I come from much more of a reporting background. 16:23 Like, I was a politics editor for almost five years. I started as a politics writer before that, and then I went to Business Insider and was editing, like, investigations and exposés. 16:34 So it, it, in some ways I was an unlikely choice for an outlet like Highsnobiety, but then when it comes to Noah's Highsnobiety, I think it made a lot more sense because he likes that down-to-earthness. 16:47 He likes radical honesty. And ours, our theme for the redesign, the print issue redesign, actually, was radical legibility- Mm... which I love. 16:56 Um, which is just, if you open the magazine, you can read a really good print story and look at some really cool images, and that is the basis of what we're trying to build. 17:11 Like, you should be able to flip to any page and, like, zoom in on a paragraph and take a line away right away. Um, it's kind of like the advertising motto of, like, you have two seconds to get someone's attention. 17:24 Um- Front of book, maybe... but that's also something I really liked, 'cause I'm such a classicist in that I just like to edit and publish good revelatory stories. 17:34 Um, and I think that I want people to be able to read them. [laughs] So the, in, in all ways it actually is like we get along quite well from the perspective of our approach. 17:47 Radical legibility is such a great turn of phrase, 'cause we've been actually talking about legibility a lot recently on the podcast. 17:53 I feel like it runs through some of our conversations about taste, where it's like when it's too legible, then you're kind of, like, in Labubu land. Mm-hmm. But if it's not legible enough, you're sort of in, like, 18:06 academia. [lips smack] And especially with, like, all, like, great culture comes out of fashion subcultures, and then in tech you have, like, almost like software subcultures. 18:17 And you want them to be legible enough that people who are outside the community can kind of find their people and become part of that subculture, but you don't want them to be so legible that they get co-opted by the sort of, like, algorithmic m- algorithmic machine. 18:30 And I think, like-I'm reading Blank Space by W. 18:33 David Marks right now, and it's like all history of contemporary culture going back to, like, the new millennium is kind of this, like, struggle of culture being created in subcultures, and then the subculture kind of, like, speed running the death process 'cause everyone comes in and is like, "Hell yeah, meet me in the bathroom. 18:51 The Strokes." Oh, that's an American Express commercial. Okay. Like, so it's been on my mind a lot. But, um, I also remembered as we were doing the intro, so remember when you went to Berlin for the first time? Yes. 19:07 [laughs] Okay. So Highsnobiety's based in Berlin. Claire had never been. So Francis is the person I texted to get recommendations to send to you. Oh, thank you, Francis. 'Cause he goes to Berlin- You're welcome... 19:16 multiple times a year. Um, so we were gonna ask if you were ended up doing any of those things or what your favorite thing was. I did such a bad job in Berlin- [laughs]... in that I have not done a lot of business trips. 19:29 Yeah. Like, travel for work is almost entirely new to me. Um- Did you feel like a fake adult? I always feel like a fake adult. 19:37 [laughs] I mean- Whenever I'm on a business trip, like, I have, like, little, like, sax music playing in my brain, like do, do, do, do. [laughs] I, I, I don't even know what I... I mostly just felt, like, jet lag. 19:49 Um- Mm. How long were you there? But I'm... I was there for a week, but what I did was I did not schedule any time on the front or back end to just, like, not be working. Um, I came in for a 20:03 Highsnobiety 20-year anniversary party that we had at the store, which is now defunct. RIP. 20:09 Um, so it was cool, [laughs] it was cool to see it before we closed off the e-commerce portion of our company, um, and the, and the retail portion, I guess. But, uh, I landed, I went to work the next day. 20:22 I worked for, like, five days, and then I left. So I didn't really have any time to do anything cool. I did go to the new National Gallery alone. Mm-hmm. Yes, I love that place. Which is a really transcendent experience. 20:34 And then there were a lot of, like, tactile exhibits that encouraged you to pick up the sculpture and play around with it, which was part of the... 20:45 And there was, like, a Yoko Ono exhibit that was about mending sculpture. Oh. Not mending sculpture, mending, just mending. There was a bunch of shattered, like, pottery mass market, like, teacups and saucers and things. 20:58 And the, the exhibit's title I, I don't remember what it was. But you were me- there was, like, tape and string, and you were meant to, like, put it back together. 21:06 So I had a nice time touching art, which is something I would never typically do, but it was a nice return to, like, a childlike sense of joy and peace. 21:19 Um, and then I went outside and saw a bunch of kids, like, recording TikTok dances, and then I felt [laughs] Were there a bunch of skaters as well? Every time I go to those there's skaters. 21:28 And they were like, "Emma Chamberlain, I love your work." [laughs] Literally. Um, no, there, there, there were some skaters. It was kind of late in the afternoon. Mm-hmm. I was watching the sunset. 21:39 But these kids were, like, really good dancers. And then I was like, "Oh, I guess this is where we are as a culture." Like, after school, kids go and record dances [laughs] and post them online. 21:49 Um, but I had a nice time there, and then I, I did a little bit of vintage shopping. I got, um, some Vuarnet sunglasses and a, a- [gasps]... little Prada chic dress. [gasps] And that was lovely. All right. Yeah. 22:01 Send me pictures after the podcast, 'cause that's- I will. I love the sunglasses. I wear them every day. But I was feeling very, like- I mean, that's a successful trip just on that alone. [laughs] It was fun. 22:10 That's business. And then the party was lovely. Yeah. And I met a bunch of coworkers and, you know, hung out with Noah, and we went to the sandwich cart, and then the security, uh, tried to bounce us out. 22:19 [laughs] Of your own party? Our own party. Well, we had left to go to the sandwich cart across the street, which was also part of the party, and then we tried to reenter. Was this, like, a doner kebab? 22:27 Like, what type of sandwich are we talking? This was, uh... It was not a kebab at all. It was, like, a, a panini almost. Mm. Oh. Mm. It was a famous sandwich cart that I wish I could remember the name of. 22:40 Um- That's why you shouldn't- And maybe I'll put it in the sh- I'll put it in the show notes. Okay. [laughs] But, um, [laughs] I've now learned that you can say that on a podcast. 22:48 But yeah, when we tried to reenter the party it was winding down, and they were like, "You can't come in." 22:52 And it was very, um, I got to, like, employ my bouncer sweet-talking skills as, like, a small fem presenting person in front- Mm... of my coworkers, um, which was a fun and new experience for me. 23:06 [laughs] In general, very, like, emblematic of the whole Highsnob experience so far. [laughs] Which is- Mm-hmm. 23:12 What's the, the, the storefront is turning into, like, a, like, Highsnob will still own it, but it'll be, like, more of a rotating activation space or something? What's going on? 'Cause it was a store- Yes... no longer. 23:21 That will be the immediate future, and then the long term I'm not sure what will happen to that space. We'd have to ask. They're doing anthropic coffee shop, Francis. [laughs] Oh, great. [laughs] No. 23:32 You'd have to ask Juergen. Do you know in, in, in, uh, I, I don't know if it's just Berlin, I think it's elsewhere too, but they have their own blank street coffee over there called LAP, Life Among People. 23:40 I've only learned about this recently through Instagram reels. It's called Ich Ein Blank. [laughs] Uh, no, it's called LAP. [laughs] Blank Strasse. Um- [laughs] No. Uh, I don't know where I was going with that. 23:52 Sorry, Claire. We interrupt each other a lot on the podcast, so- No, that's great... that's the other, like, big thing. These are the things you have to understand about being on a podcast. 23:58 Saying we're gonna put it in the show notes if you can't remember something, [laughs] interrupting, uh, and that's about it. Yeah. Wait, why do you go to Berlin all the time? Uh, I just like Berlin. 24:08 Um, I mean, I've, I've been, like, five times in the last two and a half years. Um- He's also German... but I, I'm a dual c- I've got a dual citizenship with Germany. 24:15 Um, but my dad has, my dad who's the German side, he's actually never been to Berlin. Uh, he's from, like, deep south rural Bavaria. Um, but I just like to go there. It's, it's nice. Are you a, a raver? 24:27 I'll go, like, once every time I'm there. Um, I'm two- I've never- I'll, I'll, I'll admit on the pod, I'm two for four at Berghain. Oh. Oh. Two for four. That's a 50/50. 24:37 That's not bad.I'm zero for zero, so my odds are technically better than yours, but My odds are perfect as well, so- [laughs] O for O. My coworker- Really, really what I like to do, though, is I like to... 24:48 I mean, there's, like, so many vintage shops I like to go to, so it's like the routine is, like, go for a week or so and, like, you know, maybe one day you go to the club, and then the other days it's kind of just, like, walking around, hanging out in the parks, walking by the canal, doing, like, a, you know, s- a bunch of shopping, sitting in bars, having a beer, smoking inside. 25:10 Holistic. It's great. Yeah. I like that. I- Mm... yeah, I did the, I walked by the canal. It was really lovely. I did not go clubbing. I went to one party, and then I went home. 25:20 So I, there's some, I have some notes for myself. Mm. There are some things I would do differently next time. But the vintage shopping was nice. Yeah. Yeah. 25:28 I, I feel like the prices are really good there, and there's so many things that you wouldn't really get in New York. 25:34 Like, there's so many, like, that's not always good, but, like, various, like, Cavalli, like, strange printed shirts that are often horrible, but then every now and again, there's one that's really good. Um, yeah, yeah. 25:47 Uh, last [laughs] time I was there w- with some friends, my one friend got a bunch of vintage Dolce & Gabbana jeans. Um- Mm... 25:54 just the kind of things, too, that, like, uh, a- again, they're not all great, but then, like, the ones that are really good, you'd see them at Laura Calleji here, and they would be, like, three times the price, if not more. 26:02 Yes. The one downside was that somebody here asked me where I got the sunglasses, and I said, I ha- uh, uh, they, I was trying to avoid, like, "Oh, I got them in Berlin," and- Mm-hmm... 26:17 it, because that's embarrassing to say, I think. Um, and, but they asked me so many follow-up questions such that I had to say that eventually. Like- Couldn't avoid it. 26:27 Yeah, I bet You were trying not to gatekeep, but you ended up, like, gatekeeping worse 'cause you were being, like, evasive. Well, yeah, I mean, it was more like I was trying not to be- Pretentious... 26:37 such a person who says, "I got them in a vintage store in Berlin." But I- Unfortunately, you are that person [laughs]. Was forced to- Yeah... I was forced to admit it as well in front of, uh- Reality struck [laughs]... 26:46 to, like, a relative stranger, so that was upsetting, but I'm moved past it. And I love the sunglasses. I wouldn't trade them. Um, I, I wanted to bring up your recent profile on Kyle and Veronica. Mm-hmm. Um, I- Yeah... 27:00 I did read that. I do watch their videos, um, and I, I know that this is kind of part of the point of it is that it, it, the will they, won't they is, is a big bit. 27:11 Um, I firmly fall on the side that they are not a couple. 27:15 I was, I was getting in a, a fight with my fiance and our friend about this, who they firmly believe that that's a very male, that's, of course I would think that, and it's a very male perspective on this. 27:26 Obviously, they're actually dating. I, uh, th- I do have, like, a, a definitive answer on this that is not in- Not at liberty to say... the story, but I'm not at liberty to say. That's okay [laughs]. 27:40 But they were really fun- Go on... to profile. I mean, they're both, like, quite lovely people. Mm-hmm. They were super down. 27:47 I'm a Pisces, as Daisy knows, which makes people more liable somehow to spill their guts to me, um- Yeah... which I think helps journalistically. It, it- Mm... makes you a good reporter. 27:58 Um, but- Claire and I are both Pisces. We do not have the same birthday, but I do have the same birthday as Delia Kai. Oh, I knew this. Yeah. 28:06 Yeah, because we, the first time we actually met in person was at her birthday party, which was also my birthday. Yes. Yeah. Um, and it was like I kind of... That was a fun... So this is when hotel rooms were not $400. 28:18 Like, my plan for my own birthday was to go to Delia Kai's birthday and then get a hotel room in the city, and that ended up being great. 28:28 So I strongly recommend piggybacking on somebody else's birthday party if you share a birthday. And I wasn't, like, going around telling people, like, "By the way, it's my birthday, too." 28:37 Um, I just had a really nice time. That's awesome. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Um, the Pis- the Pisces of it all, I think there's something there because also a lot of my social media team are water signs, but- Hm... anyway, um, 28:49 yeah, it was just appreciative. Like, Veronica also was getting her lip lined, but, like, also telling me about her entire emotional journey to becoming, uh, a comedian and an actor, so that was... 29:01 I was amazed at her ability to multitask and still- Was this before or after it was known that she was joining SNL? This was all before. 29:07 The whole interview happened before it was known that she was joining SNL, and then it happened to be, like, a miraculous coincidence. 29:12 And I think Noah, like, dropped the announcement into our print magazine channel, and we were all like, "Hell yeah, Veronica." Um, it was ni- it was nice to be, like, excited for her in a genuine way. Mm. I don't know. 29:24 Maybe this is, like, a really corny way to talk about writing a profile, but, um- No. Mm-mm... I, uh, uh, this is why I got into the business of journalism, 'cause I like, I like rooting for people, and I like 29:36 choosing to care about them. Um, also, at the launch party at Sake Bar Soko, uh, for the print issue, both of them came, and they hadn't read the story yet, and there were obviously copies of the print issue everywhere. 29:52 Um, and I looked at them, and I was like, "You can't read it now. You can't read it in front of me." I- No, I would have hid [laughs]. 29:58 I ne- I li- literally, it's so easy to forget as an editor, um, what it's like to be a writer, and I've had this experience a couple times. 30:06 Like, I wrote a piece about The Daily Beast for, um, Business Insider before I left that was, like, a long reported feature. Um, 30:16 and it's so easy to forget as an editor the, the stakes of being a writer, of having your name on something, of, like, being exposed. And then I've never had the subject of a story read it in my, anywhere in my vicinity, 30:30 and I felt so acutely stressed in that moment that it was, like, a remarkable... It was, it was good for me. It was, like, healthy. Mm. 30:36 Like, oh, this is the terror of creating, and these are the stakes of putting someone else's life-... into a magazine. Like, the, these are real people that you're writing about, and what you write has consequences. 30:50 Ultimately, he, Kyle went away and, like, read the story, and then found me, like, an hour later and was like, "I really liked it." That's nice. "I thought it captured the day really well." 30:57 And I was like, "Thank you, Kyle." And he's like eight feet tall, so I was- [laughs]... s- staring up at him, having this conversation, like, shouting. Um, but it was really, it was nice. 31:08 I think they're just, like, genuinely nice and talented people. Mm. So it's nice to see those kinds of people succeed. It's also nice to work on a story that's not, like... 31:18 I mean, working at BI was amazing, because I love reporting. I love knowing things that no one else knows. I love, like, revealing them to the world, um, responsibly and after extensive fact-checking. So 31:31 I, you know, worked on stories about Nickelodeon and, um, stories about America's Next Top Model, and stories about Ezra Miller. Like, some pretty high-stakes, heavy pieces about people who felt they had been 31:46 mistreated, pe- like, allegations of sexual harassment, sexual abuse. Um, 31:53 a lot of heavy shit, and so it is a nice change of pace to go into just something like the Veronica and Kyle story and to be like, "I just wanna get you across on paper." Yeah. 32:03 "And, like, I just wanna be really honest about who you are, and help people get a feel for you." And it fee- You know, in some ways, it's, it's, the stakes are just different. Mm. 32:16 I mean, they're still high, because you're trying to do justice to someone, but, um, they're not- There's nothing, like, legal at stake. Right. [laughs] Theoretically. 32:26 I mean, it's not like I'll get sued if I talk about their relationship status, so, um- They did, the, though they did make you sign an NDA, I'm sure. Yeah, absolutely. [laughs] I mean, it... 32:35 Yeah, I'm sure the SNL deal was, like, in the works at the time. Yeah. I didn't, it w- it, it didn't even, like, come up, um, but- I've seen so much vitriol against her, um, on Twitter. Really? Uh, yeah. 32:44 There's a lot of, a lot of people... I, I mean, I think, I think she's funny. I like their vi- I watch, like, all their videos. 32:49 Um, but a lot of people on Twitter absolutely despise her, and think she's the least- Interesting... funny person of all time. I'm so blissfully off Twitter, that I haven't even seen- I noticed. 32:59 I was, like, trying to prep for this. I was like, "I wonder what you've been tweeting recently." Uh- Oh, girl... and your last tweet- I don't tw- I don't tweet. I hardly read more. 33:05 You've sent, like, six tweets in the past year. [laughs] I know. I mean, uh, yeah, I just... It's kind of so desolate there that it makes me depressed. Um, and also, it doesn't 33:19 drive engagement to stories like it used to- Yeah... and that makes me feel sad. So mostly I post on Instagram about things- Mm... which I don't know if it's any better. 33:29 Um- Well, to, to that, to that point, like what we were talking about earlier about Daisy, you mentioned that tweet about everybody having the same 25 references or whatever. Mm-hmm. 33:37 And I often think, like, "Oh, I should get off Twitter," because I... So I'm... 33:42 Like, every time I say, like, "Oh, I just read this tweet," like, which happens multiple times a day, I'm like, I'm so embarrassed to say that, but it's like, I did read this tweet, and I am gonna reference it. 33:52 Um, and so- Be who you are. Don't be em- don't be ashamed. Uh, this, this is my- I rock vintage sunglasses and Berlin. Exactly. And I think it's okay. [laughs] Yeah. This is my Berlin sunglasses vibe. 33:59 And also, I do still, every once in a while, when I'm like, I've run, I've run myself out of Instagram, or I'm like, oh, I'm stalking my ex's ex's profile, I need to get off, I do sometimes Twitter. 34:10 Crazy for ex's Twitter. And then you go tweet about seeing them in the background of, like, a Soron video. I have. Yes. [laughs] Um, that was more theoretical, but- Okay... 34:18 it was the live stream, actually, of, of the election night weekend. Can you imagine- That was auto-fiction? [laughs] This is different- Yes... 34:22 but, like, what if you found out somebody was cheating on you because they were in the background of a Soron campaign video? I'm sure that has happened. It's just the- That happens. Like, that's somebody's life. Mm-hmm. 34:31 That's somebody's life. Well, [laughs] somebody's- But, but, w- um, the point I wanted to say is, like, I, I'm always like, "No, if I get off Twitter, then I will be worse at my job, because I won't know things." Hmm. 34:41 Right. But I, I'm also like, maybe I would actually be better at my job, because I would spend that time reading other things, and like, I would follow- Or thinking your own things... 34:48 exactly, thinking my own thoughts- Yeah... instead of saying, "Oh, I saw this tweet that perfectly explains this." 34:53 It's like, what if, what if I had that thought that perfectly expl- [laughs] It's hard to have an original thought. I mean, it's- Mm... it's, it's almost impossible. It's also really hard to write an original sentence. 35:03 Like- [laughs]... I've read so much journalism that is just... It's even hard for me sometimes to not fall back into a cliche that, like, easily telegraphs exactly what I'm trying to say. Yeah. Um, 35:18 I do go on Twitter, and my one satisfaction is sending funny tweets to my friend before they become screenshotted and posted on Instagram. On Instagram. Yeah. Have you had a tweet that made the rounds on Instagram? 35:30 I have. It was about being an editor. Um, I don't remember what it was. It was something like, "Being an editor is just saying looks good 35:42 over and over again until you d-" I, I don't remember what it was, but like- Yeah... [laughs] something like that. I've had two. I know you have. Well, no, I've had three. You've had more than two. 35:49 Girl Moss, and Claire proudly wears the Girl Moss hat, uh, when she gardens, so that makes me happy. I actually wear the original Dirt hat. Oh, Dirt. But do you have a Girl Moss? I don't have a Girl Moss hat. 36:02 Oh, my God, I'm so sorry. I misremembered. [laughs] It's really okay. I have a really tiny head, so I have a hard time buying hats. I also have a small head. I, I wear them, but I have them adjusted to the smallest size. 36:14 Mm. Yes. Okay. Well, strike that from the record. It's a Dirt hat. Fact-checking. [laughs] Sorry. Fact-checking on the pod. Girl Moss. Um, JPEG is French for I'm pegging. They loved that one. It's a good one. 36:25 And, um, Deer Magazine. Mm. Like, we should, deer should have a magazine that's not just about, like, hunting them- Mm... but it's about, like, their activities. That's one of my favorites. Yeah, that's true. 36:34 And that's an original thought. It was an original thought. 36:39 Have you ever- But if you go to a party and somebody talks to you about how there should be magazines about deer's activities, like, you know where that came from. They should pay youYeah. Pay the deer, pay the deer. 36:46 They need it more. Yeah. They don't. They're... It's, it's a d- it's an overpopulation problem. That's true. The deer don't need any more money. [laughs] Um, I did wanna ask about the Daily Beast piece. 36:56 Okay, Ronald Reagan. [laughs] I, I did wanna ask about the Daily Beast- Sorry. I'm from, I'm from rural Texas. That's- I mean, not rural Texas, I'm from suburban Texas. Yeah. We have deer issues. Yeah. 37:06 Uh, sorry, go ahead. I interrupted you. 37:07 No, I, I wa- I wanted to ask you about the Daily Beast piece, because I was looking at your, you know, la- latest final Business Insider pieces, um, but I am not a paying Business Insider reader- I was gonna say, so you paid to read that, Francis? 37:19 ... so I did not read it. Um, so I, I- How dare you... I would love if you could tell us a bit- Yeah, could you sum it up for us?... from an unpaid role. Oh, God. I mean, it was essentially a story about what the 37:33 takeover of the Daily Beast had been like, uh, after Ben and Joanna came on, Ben Sherwood and Joanna Coles, um, as co-owners, and I guess kind of like co-editors in chief. 37:46 That may not be their official titles, but, um- The headline was, like, "It's Now Profitable, But Has It Lost Its Bite?" Or something like that, right? Yes, something like that. Um, it actually... I hadn't... 37:57 I mean, I did, like, a profile of the... Oh, my God, not Skims. Why can't I remember it? Anyway, I did, I did one other piece for, uh, Business Insider, but I- Oh, was it the period underwear? Yes. 38:14 I always wanted called them Skims, too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then Tushy as well. Yeah, which I have and love my Tushy, but, um- Oh, should I get a Tushy? I endorse it. I always hear reviews. I think it's... Tushy lit. 38:26 Yeah. But I think, um, the Thinx story was kind of like a follow-up after all of the pieces came out about Mickey Agrawal of, like, 38:39 I don't know, what, what she's up to now and how she has digested and processed all of it, and it was, um, you know, a profile that I hope was read as, like, very objective and, and, um, hopefully interesting. 38:55 Um- Yeah... 38:55 and then the Daily Piece stor- the Daily Beast story I ended up picking up because I think another reporter had started it and then went out on a, on a long vacation, and then I was, uh, the deputy features editor. 39:10 And, also, I think if I had to be a reporter, like if someone waved a wand tomorrow, I would love to be a media reporter. There's, [laughs] there's a lot of good gossip. There's a lot of great stories. 39:24 Um, it's quite navel-gazey. I don't know if anyone really is as into it as people who work in media, um, but I just, I love the personalities. I think 39:36 crisis mode is a really interesting time to be reporting on an industry. Um, and it turns out that I just know a lot of people in media, because I, I've stayed around for 10 years. 39:48 Um, so you just kind of collect sources without even trying. Some of them are my friends, some of them are past coworkers, some of them are acquaintances. 39:57 Um, so the, the Daily Beast piece sort of happened because that writer had gone out and also because I happened to be well sourced in that world, and I was able to, like, pick up conversations that the writer had been having and continue them, and continue to kind of follow up with Ben and Joanna, and ask to interview them and ask for access, and, um, all of this. 40:21 It was i- incredibly, I don't know, I don't know if I would say nerve-wracking. I mean, it was really exciting. Like, I, I like reporting a lot. I sort of, 40:34 I think I do well under pressure, which part of that is having so many, [laughs] um, conversations with PR people for BI stories who maybe weren't happy with the angle we were pursuing or who were disputing some of our reporting. 40:49 And, you know, I could kind of point to, well, we have X, Y, and Z, and we have this document and we have this conversation. 40:58 And, um, that's a lot of what I was able to do with the Daily Beast story is, is just try to do really good reporting, and, like, 41:06 get recordings of meetings and get contemporaneous notes and get a lot of documentation, um, and, and have things, like, from four or five different people. Um, and so it was, it was a nice exercise in, like, 41:22 source maintenance and, and the gathering of source material, and also, like, just trying to come at conversations with everyone from a, uh, a bird's-eye point of view. Um, yeah, I, I had a really good time writing it. 41:40 Um, and then also was, like, recently accidentally looped into a group text that Joanna Coles sent [laughs] with their- Oh, my God, it's your signal day... PR person. It really wasn't... 41:54 I really was like- You're the Jeffrey Goldberg of, uh-... is this gonna be my signal day? It really wasn't. Yeah. Like, it was super benign. Um- Yeah... 42:02 she had just texted Chris Lasto, who's the PR person, and she was, like, talking about a tweet that someone had tweeted about the, the company who was an Axios reporter, and she was like, "Make sure they, like, have our statement," something, something. 42:15 And like, uh, maybe sh- I think maybe she thought I was Michael Wolfe, but she was like, "And make sure Michael CC here has it." Um, and I was like, "That's not me. Is Michael... 42:26 Does Michael Wolfe have the Texas number?" I'm clear, but I think may- I don't, I'm not even sure how she ended up looping me in, but I was like, "Ah, the, the journey continues." You know? Like, the, the, 42:39 the connections are eternal. 42:41 And interestingly, Joanna is someone that my old boss, uh, at Vanity Fair, Jon Helman, was really close to, and he was always, like, calling her up and having gossip sessions with his, like, feet up on the desk, and, like-I don't know. 42:53 [laughs] So, so I had, like, a, an interesting POV on her as a person from the start, and so it was, it was... 43:02 I had a, I had a good time trying to, like, get into the meat of that and, like, how she and Ben work as media bosses and, um, how that was playing out among the staff as well. 43:15 But yeah, it was, it was, it was challenging, and fun, and satisfying, and a little bit intimidating at times. 43:24 I think the tough thing about media reporting, but really any reporting that relies on access, is it's, like, it's hard to be really brutally honest about people that you like personally, but so much of that access relies on some sort of social proximity, and when you spend time with people, most people, you enjoy spending time with them. 43:47 So when it comes time to do critical reporting, you have to be so clear-eyed in those divisions between the personal and the professional. 43:56 And I almost feel like media reporting is something that people should do in, like, tours of duty- Right... because, or it's like- You burn that social capital? Yeah, it's like- It's like writing- Yeah... 44:07 writing obits when I was in college. Like, that was part of the tour of duty. Yeah. Like, you need to, like, rotate people off before they're too entrenched and, like, compromised. Um, maybe people have figured that out. 44:21 I think it sort of happens de facto 'cause people burn out or they become the story. Like Olivia Nuzzi, uh, she kind of rotated [laughs] off her tour of duty. 44:31 Now she's coming back, but maybe she's coming back with, like, a little bit more better boundaries. With the... Isn't it, like, the California version of the Daily Beast or something? Am I... Do I have that right? 44:39 No, she's going to Vanity Fair. No, no. Oh, okay. That's who it was. I think maybe there was- Yeah... some speculation that the California Bureau of the New York Post, whatever that can That's what I've... Okay. 44:49 Is it California Post? It's the Calif- All right. That's what I'm confusing. All right. Well- Scratch that... they'll have to find a Temu Olivia Nuzzi out in LA. [laughs] I'm sure- So-... there's plenty. Yeah. 45:02 Yeah, I think she's BF's West Coast editor, which I'm honestly, like, so intrigued and excited to see what she does. 45:10 Well, now they have her doing Hollywood instead of Washington, so that is kind of like, it is like clearing the slate, right? 45:16 It's like you got too close to these subjects, so here are some fresh subjects that you, like, don't have, you, you don't have as much proximity towards. 45:24 This reminds me, I, um, did either of you, of you see One Battle After Another? I just watched it, yes. I- Well, fortunately Francis watched it twice, so collectively- I was talking about this earlier... 45:34 we have seen it three times. Um, I watched it again last night. Mm-hmm. Uh, but Sean Penn, do you think he's purposefully doing an RFK Jr.? Oh, is he? I just, my takeaway- The voice... 45:45 from that movie was that I never wanna see his mouth move ever again. Oh my God. [laughs] Do you? The mouth acting. It's the... The mouth acting was 45:54 unhinged, and this also maybe is coming from my point of view as a person who ha- I have a lot of trouble listening to people chew. Mm-hmm. Even, sometimes even if their mouth is closed. So 46:07 the mouth in general can be, you know, equal parts erotic and disgusting for me. Mm. And, uh, I don't, I don't know. One of the blissful things about, uh, not being a politics editor is I don't have to [laughs] 46:22 listen to RFK Jr. that much anymore. Um, it didn't, I mean, it didn't immediately land that way to me. Mm. I think it's that- But-... they're both kind of like shriveled, leathered men with these, with these- Yeah... 46:36 like, strange voices. The mouth, I mean, very different characters. I can't... I, I've been, like, trying to imitate his mouth movements. I cannot do it. I don't know how he does it. Well, that's good. Yeah. 46:46 You shouldn't. [laughs] Thankfully. It's... [laughs] You shouldn't aspire to that, I think. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Men, apply your sunscreen and be unproblematic 'cause otherwise you guys are gonna age like a walnut. Mm-hmm. 46:58 And unclench your jaw or else- Unclench your jaw... you'll sound like Sean Penn. Right. Well, that's- Wait, the- Don't chew gum all on one side. We've been over this. [laughs] I was so amazed by the hair as well. 47:09 Like, it's such a- His hair? Oh my God... great part of the character, the mouth acting when he takes the comb and runs it through his own tongue and then, and then with the noise as well, with the sound- Oh, God... 47:21 effect of, of his- That was so fun to do when you were a kid though. You know, like- I've never done it in my life... everyone, like, everyone's dad had those little disposable black combs, right? 47:30 And the tines of the comb are very flexible. Oh, I was doing all sorts of- Can't relate What?... little tricks with that. You don't know what I'm talking about? No. No? It's, like, fun. You can run your finger over it. 47:42 Okay. I mean, I had, like, a, a, a hairbrush just 'cause I had very long hair, and I'd, I would, I would, like, get it wet under the, in the sink and then brush my hair in the sink. I mean, like, a men's black comb. 47:52 Never. Do people not use those anymore? I did for a while, and then I got really scared about microplastics, and I switched to wood. Mm. Okay, that's really classy. Full of micro- [laughs] I hadn't even considered that. 48:04 I mean, I don't even comb my hair half the time, so- I mean, it will-... that's the joy of chopping it off... 48:09 I'm sure the wood comb is sealed with, like, a plastic residue aerosol that is equally as bad for me as the- Mm... plastic comb, so. Is that, like, Mason Pearson? Are those, like, the tortoiseshell ones? 48:20 No, it's from Amazon. Like, it's not, it's, it's not fancy. It's just, it, I just had a spiral, and that's what happens. No, you gotta keep those away from your scalp. Yeah. [laughs] Um- I don't know. 48:36 Okay, back on a, back on a media business tip. Um, so I know that Highsnobiety is, like, restructuring a bit, and the e-com is shutting down by the end of the year. We talked about the store. Is, like, how much of... 48:48 Is it like... 'Cause there's the agency sort of side, right? And then the editorial side. Is it that the editorial is in New York and the agency is in Berlin? How does this work? 48:57 No, um, both of-The sides of the business are kind of across both offices- Mm-hmm... interestingly. There's a lot of agency side in New York, and there's some editorial also in Berlin. 49:10 Like, our visuals director is there, operations director is there. Um- How many people is it? Uh, the editorial team... 49:18 This is such a good question because people ask me to ballpark this all the time, and I'm so bad at numbers. But, like, I can remember the name of the PR person that I talked to for the Perfumer H story. 49:28 Um, uh, it's Harriet. Um, how many people are there? [laughs] Hi, Harriet. Hi, Harriet. She was so lovely to work with. Um, would do it again at any point. But, eh, I think maybe, like, 25 people on edit, maybe 20. 49:44 I have to count my calendar invite. But it's a fairly small team overall. Perfumer H, I only learned about them because they have them at Venn Space, uh, and down in Carroll Gardens. 49:58 I'm like- They also have them at the Highsnobiety store in Berlin. There you go. Very nice perfumes. Which had nothing to do, in fact, with the, with the way that we assigned that story. It 50:07 just was a, a nice coincidence. Hm. Is there, um... This is sort of, this is a, a theme on this podcast is, like, the relationship between, like, revenue and editorial at media businesses, right? 50:18 Like, how much are you... How much is that, like, open or closed, that relationship for, for you at work? Yeah. I mean, again, super interesting 50:29 for me coming from strictly reportorial background, um, where that always was incredibly divided. Mm-hmm. But also we were doing, like, very different kinds of stories, so it wouldn't have made sense to 50:44 bring the two closer together. 50:45 Um, but also something I talked to Noah about a lot when I was coming on was, like, this business model that Highsnob has and how it's different and how it can maybe, like, build in a little more security because it's not as traffic-reliant at a time when everyone is scrambling trying to figure out traffic. 51:01 Um, there's, like, some transparency. Uh, it's not... There's not a ton of overlap. There's, like, one... 51:10 Our, our, uh, director of editorial operations is kind of the go-between, um, between the editorial team and the, uh, the sales team, the branded partnerships team, the agency side. 51:23 Um, so they have an overview of what our editor- editorial calendar looks like, and then they can use that to then go to the branded side and say, "This is what's upcoming, and, like, this is the talent we have planned for," 51:38 I don't know, "this month, next month, the third month." 51:40 And then oftentimes there's, like, brand synergy there, like, I don't know, maybe someone that we're planning on covering organically anyway has a brand deal with this person, or not person, with this company. Mm-hmm. 51:52 Um, oh, God. Are people brands? Corporations are people. Corporations are people. Are brands people? Yeah. Literally. But maybe there's, like, um, 51:59 a natural connection there, and then our business side can, like, reach out to the brand and say, "We have this upcoming. Are you interested in sponsoring it?" 52:07 Or, or maybe sometimes it happens vice versa where a brand is, like, working with a musician or an actor that we're interested in covering, and it can come through that channel. Um, it's not... I wouldn't say... 52:22 I w- everything is editorially driven. Like, uh, we kind of have the final say of what the stories are and who we feature and who we're interested in and, like, what we wanna talk about. 52:35 Um, so I really appreciate that about the way that we work, is like, if it doesn't fit with the editorial vision, maybe it gets slotted in in some different way, but we're not gonna do, like, a feature story about it just because it will get us X amount of dollars. 52:51 Mm. Um, there's st- There... 52:53 It, it feels like there's still some in- integrity there, and I think a lot of that is, like, the way that Noah wants to work, which, again, aligns with, like, how I feel about the stories that we publish. 53:05 Um, so it's nice. But yeah, it's, it's interesting in that, like, it is, there... It's, it's closer church and state than anywhere else I've worked. But sometimes that can be beautiful. 53:16 Like, [laughs] sometimes it really works out. 53:19 Um, like, we assigned a Natasha Cloud digital cover, which was something I was, like, obsessed with and wanted to get off the ground from the second I started because I was like, "No one at Business Insider would r- really, uh, ever do anything about Natasha Cloud," unless there was, like, a business of the WNBA story. 53:37 But I was so interested in her as a person and, like, who she was and what she represented, and she was so cool and so honest and, um, just, like, seemed really lovely. 53:46 And i- it just so happened that, like, the branded side, you know, was made aware of the story, and then Pinterest sponsors the WNBA. Well, I think Delivery, maybe they have a special relationship with the league. Mm. 54:02 Um, and then Pinterest came to us and said, "Oh, we wanna, like, contribute to this Natasha Cloud story in some way." 54:08 So I think they ended up, like, running banner ads next to it, and then they sponsored a zine, like a print zine of the digital cover, um, which was delightful. I love a zine, and, uh, I loved the design. 54:22 And then we did an event with them. And Tash came, and it was, like, a tattoo party [laughs] which was... it w- just, like, really worked out. Um- Did you get a tattoo at the party? I did get a tattoo at the party. 54:33 Um, I felt like- What is it?... I had to do, like, a family hold back thing. Yeah. So, like, I walked in and was like, "Oh, no, no, no, I don't need a tattoo." And then everyone was like, "Get a tattoo. Like, sign up. 54:42 Sign up." And I was like, "Fine. Uh, twist my arm." So I got this little, um... It's a little crusty right now 'cause I... it's healing, but it's, it's, like, just a little NYC- Oh, that's cool... tattoo. Oh, I love it. 54:57 Yeah. As a transplant, um, it feels a little questionable, but I've also been here- No... for, like, 11 years now, so- That's-... I was like, "You know what?"... beautiful. And my astrocartography is allOver New York. 55:10 [gasps] Like all of my lines. I haven't done mine. You should. I... How did you do it? I have an astrologer. I can give you their name if you want. You know what? This- Hook me up. Great... the, the tattoo wasn't... 55:20 Okay, so there's, I'm curious if it was done, if it's related to this. I was walking around a couple weekends ago, and in Nolita, kind of right by i- iconic magazines, there's tiny zaps. What's Iconic Magazines? 55:36 Daisy, don't bring that bit back. But, um- [laughs] Uh, but it's like i- it's, okay, I mean, here, here's this picture I took. You won't be able to see, but it's tiny zap- Oh... small tattoo. 55:44 It's basically a stick and poke shop. Not that. No. So this was- Yes... I, but it, I, I was kind of flabbergasted. I'm like, "This is, they're gentrifying the stick and poke." They've already gentrified tattoos. 55:54 I mean, there was like a- Long, long ago. But, but to, it was-... Invisible Ink brand... it was prof- Like-... yeah, it just felt so profane to see a store front that's like entirely based on this. 56:04 I guess it's just the, um, what's the piercing brand? Studs. Studs. It's like studs- Mm-hmm... for stick and pokes. Well, Claire- It's very... 56:12 I saw, um, I just like screenshotted on Instagram, somebody had steak frites written in cursive that actually looks similar to yours. 56:19 I literally almost sent it to you yesterday, and then I couldn't remember if you're a vegetarian. No. Everyone thinks I'm a vegetarian. Oh, my God. This is a strange thing to me. 56:26 I think it's because I'm like queer and- You're getting stereotyped... like kind of alt looking and- Visible... I maybe like nice. I don't know. [laughs] You're like, "Fuck those animals." Yeah. Oh, wow. 56:38 I, I mean, again, I'm, I'm from Texas. I love- You love steak... steak. I love fries. [laughs] I love ribs. I love brisket. Like- Mm... I get barbecue and Tex-Mex when I come home. It's- Yeah... 56:50 such a crucial cornerstone of who I am. Um, yeah. It's, my girlfriend and I, like the first time we got a steak together, it was the reveal of like how we get it done. And- Which obvious, obviously it's medium rare... 57:06 for me it is, it's more on the rare side. Okay. Okay. And she's more on the medium side. Okay. And it was a real moment of like, "Oh, my God, is this gonna work out?" Um, but it's- Medium, not medium rare. She's medium. 57:17 Yeah, but we, we got- Wow... medium rare, which is in between our preferences and, and I went for the middle and she went for the ends, and it actually was fine. Excellent. Um, so we saved, we saved it, but yeah. 57:29 This, this tattoo is by this artist named, um, Cake, who is like a queer Brooklyn tattooer, um, with a really cool wife, and who's just like a big sweetie. 57:42 And she collaborated with, uh, Natasha on the design, so all the flat sheet that she made was like- Oh, that's cool... an homage to Tash and to Liberty, which I thought was cool. Claire, before you go- Yes... 57:54 I want to ask you, who is your dream profile? 57:57 Like, I know you came in wanting to do Tash, but like is there somebody else who's like your white whale, where you're like, "If I could profile this person for Highsnob, I would die happy"? 58:07 Well, this would not be for Highsnob, but I've always wanted to profile Rebekah Mercer, um- Interesting... mostly because [laughs] this is my white whale like a few years ago when I was at VF and, um, 58:21 a f- friend, an anonymous friend's parents were neighbors with her. Um, and I was like, "This is my in." 58:30 Like, I want to go to my friend's parents' house for Thanksgiving and like meet the Mercers and convince her to do a story because she's famously so press shy. 58:42 Um, this, this story obviously was like a huge deal during the rise of Trump because they bankrolled so much of that, but I'm not convinced that they're not still doing that. Um- Yeah... 58:53 and I'm just really curious about her. Like, uh, there was so much written about her, around her, but she never really did any interviews, so that was my white whale for a while. 59:05 Um, Rebekah Mercer, if you [laughs] you hear this. 59:08 It's also interesting 'cause she has zero motivation to do any press or talk to anyone, so it's like how do you get someone like that, um, to agree to give you like a window into their world and their psyche? 59:20 Like, it's very difficult. Um, but yeah, that, that would be my white whale from that like part of the world. Well, Rebekah Mercer- I don't know if I have another one... if you're listening- It's like a cultural one. 59:33 Huh? I said Rebekah Mercer, if you're listening [laughs]- He's gonna make us end on this note. I am making you end on this note. Oh, no. He's forcing, he's forcing an end. 59:42 [laughs] Yeah, I mean, there's so many like cultural people that I wanna talk to as well, but I, that is just the first thing that comes to mind. Um... 59:54 I would love to, this is not me pitching myself to Highsnob, but, um, I have two people that I got as doppelgangers, mostly like specific younger photos of them. Mm-hmm. Young Cher- Mm... and young Anjelica Huston. 1:00:10 I see. And I would love to do... There's actually one, there's a photo of them with Jack Nicholson together, like in the same photo. I would love to do maybe both of them at the same time, just like a round table. 1:00:21 Like I spend the whole day hanging out with Cher, Anjelica Huston. Like, that would be really fun. That would be my white whale. Wow. Mm. You know what? Maybe my white whale is Cher. I love Cher. I- You should do this... 1:00:35 think about her all the time. You should do this. I think her internet presence is amazing. I've watched every film she's in, essentially. 1:00:43 Like, I have listened to her music since I was probably six years old because my mom used to play her hit singles, um, on a s- on a CD-ROM in our Suburban. 1:00:56 Um, and I would take out the sleeve from the CD, um, case, and she was wearing like a thong in the album art. Oh, my God. I know which one you're talking about. And I didn't... Yes. 1:01:09 It was like lavender with silver accents. It was so cool. You were like, "I really like this." [laughs] Well, no, I was just like, I had not seen a thong. I didn't know-What was, I was so young- What is this technology? 1:01:23 My mother, like we're, you know, we were quite bodily conservative as a family. Yeah. Like, not super intimate, and I'd never seen anything like it, and I was just like, "Who is this woman?" 1:01:36 And like, "What is she wearing, and why is she so fabulous?" And that is, like, a core memory for me, and I don't even think it's, like, a core queer memory. I think it's just, like, a core cultural memory. 1:01:46 Um, I would love to profile Cher. I think she's so- You should take Cher-... fabulous... vintage shopping in Berlin. [laughs] And write a profile on it. There you go. Full circle. Wow. 1:01:57 I- Noah, please, please let Claire do this story. I think Cher did... Didn't, didn't she do an interview with Semi recently about, like, love and relationships, or am I imagining that? I think so. 1:02:08 I mean, she said a lot of really smart stuff about love and relationships recently. Yeah. I would love to ask the desire question to Cher. 1:02:15 She, okay- [laughs] Just, I mean, all I'm seeing, I looked, I Googled Cher interview, so I don't know. Oh, good one. But, uh, she was on- Great SEO [laughs] Great SEO. 1:02:22 The, the biggest one that's coming up is she was on CBS a, a year ago. Full stop review. I don't know if that's what you're talking about, but, um, and then she was on Jimmy Kimmel- Barry Weiss, if you're listening... 1:02:33 a few months ago. So I don't know if that's what you want. Was she in, like, don't you do, like, an interview magazine story? [gasps] Yes. But talking to who? That's maybe where the quote- It was somebody interesting... 1:02:43 came from. Maybe she was interviewed. You're a hundred percent right. I can't, I'm not finding it. Um, she- Well, they usually have two sep- Okay. I-... celebs. I'm looking at a cover she did, though, from the '80s. 1:02:54 Okay. I don't know what I'm gonna do. Cover, covers are so chopped, you guys. But anyway, I would love a Cher story. Um- Cher, if you're listening. Yeah. 1:03:01 I also would love to, I mean, this is someone we've been talking about a lot in pitch meetings, but I would love to profile Faye Webster. Mm. Think she's really cool. I'm a big weirdo, she's a big weirdo. 1:03:12 You guys kind of look alike. There's good yo-yoing. We do look [laughs] that's funny. I don't know. I'm picking it up. Um, thanks. I haven't d- I, yeah... 1:03:19 I, I would listen to her a lot, like, three years ago, I was listening to her a lot, that one album. Um, but did, has she released new music? I haven't been keeping track. 1:03:27 Um, the hardcore fan actually is my best friend Alexis. They are- Oh... obsessed with Faye Webster. They used to, like, put her on in my apartment as a bit because I don't really like sad music. I can't- Oh... handle it. 1:03:38 I'm too emotional already, and I can't be dragged over the edge of the cliff in that way. Um- Mm... 1:03:44 but they had permission to control my Google Home, so when they would walk into the, to, to my apartment where I live, and we're trying to be at peace, they would put on a Faye Webster song, and then, uh, my whole- It's very at peace music. 1:03:58 Uh, the m- album I was listening to a lot was- Yeah. It kind of-... uh, I'm Funny, I Know I'm Funny, Ha Ha from f- three years ago. It's very peaceful. I think I've only listened to Lego Ring mainly. 1:04:07 Whatever they would play, it made me feel sad, and s- [laughs]... and so I, like, banned Faye Webster. But I, I actually think she's, like, extremely cool and very, like, high snob in the way that she's just- Mm-hmm... 1:04:19 very honest as a person. So who knows? I love both of these ideas. I signed off. We'll leave it there. Thank you so much. Approved. Signing off. My visual editor Azra loves to say, "Approved." 1:04:30 Speaking, speaking of signing off [laughs] Speaking of signing off- This has been Taste Test... thank you for coming on, Claire. Thank you so much. [outro music]
