Transcript 0:00 [upbeat music] Welcome back to Tasteland. I am Francis Zehr. And I'm Daisy Alioto. And Daisy, who are we speaking to today? Today we're speaking with my friend Cole Townsend. 0:16 He is a developer, a runner, and a startup founder. I have known him since college, and he also- Oh... helped implement that lovely podcast bar at the top of clone.fyi, uh, which we can discuss with him. Mm. 0:31 Which listener, you may be listening, if you're on Clone right now, thank Cole. Meta, yeah. Mm-hmm. Daisy, I had jury duty for the first time last week. How... I can't believe you got this from me. Yeah. 0:45 I, I think you were, you were texting me about something work-related, and I was like, "I'll get to it later." Um, but I figured it'd be better to talk about it on the pod. I... Actually, the... 0:55 So we record on Tuesdays, right? And I'd had, like, the thing whereas the previous week it was like, call again after 5:00 PM on Tuesday. So at, like, 7:00 PM on Tuesday, find out I have to go in the next morning. Um, 1:08 I promise I'll keep this short, listener. Uh, anyways, I was there all day on Wednesday. We didn't even get called into the courthouse until 4:00 PM. They call us in. We've been there since 9:00 AM. 1:19 They're like, "All right. Well, the judge isn't gonna see you today. You can go home. Uh, come back tomorrow at 9:30." So I did come back the next day, um, and again, I'm just sitting there until lunch. 1:31 12:30, they s- they say, "Okay, it's lunch until 2:15." Like, it's the longest [laughs] lunch break I've ever, ever had. 1:40 Um, anyways, second day we finally get called in, and I, and I'm, I'm able to get, uh, rejected for selection by, by the end of the second day. Um, yeah, I, uh- How did you get rejected? What did you d- what did you do? 1:53 We'll keep that, we'll keep that between... We'll keep that off mic. [laughs] Um, no, I, I, I, I got... I'm a busy guy, I got things to do. Um- Uh-huh... 2:01 but I will say it allowed me to read, um, most of the new Pinchin book, Shadow Ticket. So that, that was, that was kind of the plus. 2:09 Um- A book that, like, arguably was written for people who are waiting to get called in for jury duty. [laughs] Yeah. 2:15 Like, that's kind of like the platonic ideal of, like, the Thomas Pinchin reading experience, wouldn't you say? I w- I, I absolutely would say, too. The captive audience of it all as well. 2:23 I'd, like, started it, like, before bed a few nights before, and it's like I got like 20 pages in and then I was, like, tired and I went to sleep. And so you kind of needed to, like... 2:32 Yeah, I don't know, the captive audience of sitting there. Uh, I did, I did find a great... I went to lunch there to this Raffaele's place out in Forest Hills. Uh, banquet hall. I was the only customer. Oh, I'm sorry. 2:47 Um, were you in Queens for jury duty? Is Ridgewood part of Queens? [laughs] Shut up. Shut up. Rid- yeah, Ridgewood's part of Queens. I live in Queens. Um, well, actually Queens, as I like to call it. Uh, yeah. 3:01 Yeah, I mean, look, Ridgewood is so not in Queens that I had to take... It was an hour commute to get to the courthouse. It's a long time. Yeah. 3:09 Well, I also, I read a book by Gabrielle Hamilton, Gabrielle Hamilton, sorry, uh, who wrote the book Blood, Bones & Butter. She's a chef. Um- Classic combo... famously had a restaurant called Prune that I- Mm... 3:25 maybe named my newsletter after, maybe not. Um- Famously a, a vegan restaurant, right? No, not vegan. Oh, um, okay. I'm incorrect. Um, 'cause she was also, uh, part of The Spotted Pig. Mm. 3:37 Remember that ended up being a whole thing? April Bloomfield. And I never... Oh, yeah. But I think she was an investor. I never went to the- No, I believe April Bloomfield was the chef at, at Spotted Pig. 3:47 I never went to The Spotted Pig. But, um, so Gabrielle Hamilton, like, her first book, very much about food. Her second book, this is the story of her family. It's called Next of Kin. 3:59 She also did a Prune cookbook, so maybe this is- Mm... technically her third book. This book was so brutal, Francis. I mean, I couldn't- Blood, Bones & Butter. Is it about, like, the meat industry? 4:09 No, this new memoir, Next of Kin, it's about her family. Oh, okay. I could not put it down, but it was so brutal. Like, did you watch The Bear? Uh, yeah, but I stopped after... I think I got... The first season was good. 4:22 Stopped halfway through the second season. Did you watch the fishes episode? Oh, that's the Christmas one? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It was like the slow tension and dread of, like, familial dysfunction- Mm... 4:38 dragged out across an entire book, peeling back layers of the mystery. Siblings are dying. Like, I had- Wait, this is a memoir or this is fiction? It's a memoir. Okay. That's what I thought you said. 4:53 I had really bad weird dreams after I read it. [laughs] And, um, but I thought it was fantastic. And then this will tell you how brutal this book was. 5:02 As a palate cleanser, I'm reading Whiteout by Michael Cluny, which is his memoir of heroin addiction. [laughs] 'Cause I was like, "This will be better." Um, 5:10 but the other thing I wanted to tell you, speaking of restaurants, is tonight I'm going to Eel Bar. Oh, nice. You are the person who kind of was the first person to chat up Eel Bar to me- Yeah... at length. 5:21 And guess who I'm going with? Uh, are you going with our guest today? No, friend of the pod, Jeff Rickly. Oh, okay. Um, so I'm excited, and, like, I think... Well, tell me what to get. Um, what to get. 5:37 I mean, I think they changed the, I think they changed the menu- Mm... with some frequency. Um, but it's k- getting back into, I guess it's the fall/winter season. Um, I... The fried fish was really good. 5:49 The shrimp, um, the, uh, what are they called? They're like a little pincho, like the, the... Oh, gildas. The gildas. Gilda, yeah. Gildas are really good. It's like an anchovy, an olive, and- Mm-hmm... 5:59 something else, right? Yeah. Get that. Get, like-A few small things and then, like, one bigger thing because- Hmm... it's just fun to get more things. Um, but the gill net- It is fun to get more things... 6:09 was really memorable for me. Yeah. It was fun to get more things. Uh, the... There was, like, a shrimp rice that was really nice. Mm-hmm. I can't remember a ba- like, a bite I was disappointed in. Yeah. 6:19 And the room is just nice. You- you'll, you'll, you'll enjoy the room. I love to enjoy a room. Uh-huh. I'm excited. And then we're gonna hit up Erin Summers' book party, book after party- Mm-hmm... I guess. 6:30 Um- No, just the after party. Just the after party. Um, I am going to be one of the... I am going to be the conversation partner for her book event tomorrow in Cold Spring. Yeah. So I don't feel bad about- Oh... 6:43 not coming to McNally. Yeah, no. That's okay. That's forgivable. 6:51 [upbeat music] Cole, um, you just got back from Tokyo relatively recently, and I wanted to ask you, like, 7:02 people get back from Japan and they enter this, like, depression of having gone from, like, a high-trust society or what seems like a high-trust society back to kind of like a low-trust society. 7:12 Obviously, the cultures are very different, pros and cons for each. Mm-hmm. But if it isn't too personal of a question, did you end up with any, like, post-Japan blues? Uh, I feel like I crashed for about a week. Mm-hmm. 7:25 Um, not really blues so much as, like, I was exhausted. Severe jet lag. I slept... Yeah, severe jet... Like, and I was like, "I'm gonna be great, and here's how." Like, I come back on the flight. 7:36 I sleep the first flight for all but an hour. Second flight, which is in the US, and so this point, it's, like, kind of during normal hours, like, it is the afternoon, I also sleep that whole flight. 7:48 [laughs] And then I get home, and it's, like, I don't know, 8:00, and I'm like, "Well, it's about quitting time." Time to go back to sleep. [laughs] "I'm gonna go back to sleep at 10:00." 7:57 [laughs] And then I got up the next day at 9:00 AM, and I'm like, "What is going on? I just slept for like 16 hours and then, like, had a 12-hour sleep here." Um, I, I, I feel like I was just, like, toasted. 8:08 It was just, uh... It was we were really active there, and it was really, really, really hot. And I got back and I was just like, "I can't do..." 8:16 Normally I'm, like, pretty active and, like, running a lot and biking a lot, and I just got back and I was like, "I can't do anything." Yeah, so I just, like, did some of the writing that I needed to do. 8:24 But I don't, I don't think, like, the cultural shift was, like, less so 'cause, like, I also work from home, so I'm, like, so isolated from people. So, like, I live in a very high-trust environment. 8:33 Yeah, in your apartment. [laughs] It's just me. [laughs] It's just me in my apartment. Yeah. It's like I just leave stuff around, and I don't know, I feel like I'm, I'm pretty lucky with that sort of stuff too. 8:41 It's good you can trust yourself. Yeah. And you don't use public transportation that much if you're biking, right? No, and like I... It's not that hard to drive in Boston. Mm-hmm. I had- Got it... 8:51 kind of a bad situation where I did come back and my car was gone. Oh. And that was... Maybe that was- Just-... like, the worst thing... just towed? Not this trip. This, this, this one. Wait. Yeah, it was towed. 9:02 You came back from Japan and your car had been towed? Yeah, 'cause someone was moving. Yeah, but not stolen. Oh. No, not stolen, thank God. 9:09 Um, but it was towed, and then I had to go through the whole process of getting it back, which is not that fun coming back from a trip. So annoying. But were you actually parked illegally? 9:18 No, just someone was moving, and so they got, like, a moving vehicle, and I wasn't there to move it. I feel like that shouldn't be allowed. They don't care. [laughs] Huh. Interesting. 9:29 They're just like, "Yeah, move your car." Like, it's not their fault, but it's like I wasn't gonna be able to do anything about it either. Normally I think... 9:34 I'm sure they try and call you, and, like, they were not gonna be able to call me or reach me or get anyone to move my car. But they didn't tow it, like, a block. They, they took it, you know, five miles away. 9:45 I would've been pretty pissed. I wasn't happy. [laughs] So, okay. I'm gonna- I don't, I don't feel strongly about paying taxes. I feel like I've already paid my dues to- Now you feel strongly-... 9:55 in Cambridge from the start... about not paying taxes. Was there- Yeah, I was like maybe-... a cost associated with this? Oh, yeah. Yeah, I had to pay the towing company, and then there were tickets for the... 10:02 There was a ticket for this part. This doesn't sit well with me, Cole. I know, right? I know. I'm gonna call Michelle Wu on your behalf. Thank you. [laughs] I mean, she's not great with traffic violations either. 10:12 Oh, famously? Yeah, she got... Like, her motorcade got in, like, an accident. Well, you know. That never happened to me. I feel like a motorcade typically has right of way. Yeah. Yeah, she might have... 10:22 It might have been her actually, someone. [laughs] She was driving. But she was part of a mo- She's... Yeah, she was driving. [laughs] Um, okay. What is the best thing that you ate in Tokyo? Oh. 10:32 Was it just Tokyo or were you also... Did you travel to other parts of Japan? I didn't just 'cause, like, for my, like, regular j- I was like, "I'm off for a week already for, like, my regular job." 10:40 Like, they kind of need me to, to do stuff, so, like, I got back. Um, my regular job is a Soul Retriever. I do, like, software design and development. 10:47 Like, I'm the, I'm the person that does all the tech, and I was like, "All right, I kind of, like, want to get back to my schedule." You're the soul of Soul Retriever. Well, guess so, founder. 10:54 [laughs] Oh, yeah, fou- co-founder of Soul Retriever. Co-founder. 10:57 [laughs] Um, but also the person who, like, does all the tech stuff, and I was like, "I kind of want to, like, get back and be on my routine," and that sort of thing. Yeah. 11:03 'Cause I was, I was, I was tired after, like, a lot of days of running around. But, um- You need to get back on GitHub... I was- I don't feel right if I'm not pushing fixes. Right. 11:10 [laughs] I was like, "If I'm not interfacing with AI for eight hours a day, I don't know what I'm doing." [laughs] My favorite coworker. Um- Claude or somebody else? So I use Claude. Mm-hmm. I use Claude. 11:22 I was using Cursor for a little bit. Now I'm on, like, Claude Code, just terminal, and then Cursor slash, like, just the editors for me. 11:28 So, like, I do my own task, and then I have my little junior developers via Claude that'll run asynchronously and, like, do an okay job. I don't know. They do fine. This is... I have a Claude story, actually. 11:40 This is not a story about me, um, crashing out at Claude actually. Um, growth, personal growth. 11:48 Um- I don't know if you know this, Cole, but Daisy, uh, every other episode of this podcast talks about how she abuses ChatGPT. I've gotten upset with it. I've lost my cool. I d- it's become... 11:58 Sometimes it's become a repository for emotions that I can't express in my interactions with other humans, and- People use it for therapy[sighs] Yeah. 12:08 Well- Anyways, what's the- I wouldn't really describe this as therapy [laughs] What did... What's the story, Daisy? Okay, the story is, um, so The Ten-Year Affair by Erin Somers, I love this book. 12:20 I read it twice because I am talking with Erin tomorrow in Cold Spring about the book. She got a wonderful review for the book in The New York Times by Edan Waldman, and I was very excited for her. 12:30 But the way that this review is written... So this is a book that takes place along two timelines. Um, the main character meets a guy in her baby group who's also married, and she starts to imagine an affair with him. 12:42 And so it takes place in two timelines where, like, there's the fantasy timeline and her real life, and then midway through the book they swap. So she starts to actually have an affair with him, and the fantasy life is 12:53 i- the possibility of her not having crossed that line. Um, the way that The New York Times Review is written makes it sound like the f- the affair is a fantasy throughout, and that they never have an affair. 13:04 And I read it and I was like, "Oh my God, I've humiliated myself," because I wrote, like, a semi-review of this book. I was like, "I read it twice. I completely misunderstood. 13:13 Like, I really thought it switched halfway through. Like, I feel so dumb." I upload the PDF of the entire book into Claude- [laughs]... and I was like, "I just need to know. Does this couple actually have an affair?" 13:26 And Claude was like, "Yes. Like, midway through, like, the fantasy becomes reality." And I was like, "Oh, thank God." Um, and then I- So-... 13:32 finally admitted to Erin that I had had, like, a minor crash out, 'cause I was like, "Oh my God, the New York Times review is so good," and I'm, like, crying behind the mask. Like, "Oh, I'm stupid." 13:40 [laughs] Well, did you then upload The New York Times review to Claude and make sure that it was... it had misinterpreted the text? 13:48 You know, I was so relieved, I didn't feel like I had to take [laughs] the additional step. Hmm. It's just ambiguous, and I think- Yeah... 13:53 some reviewers, like, don't wanna do a spoiler, but- As you just did on the pod... as I just did. Sorry, guys. Very Life of Pi. Mm-hmm. That's fair. [laughs] It is very Life of Pi. Have you read Life of Pi, Francis? 14:05 Uh, yeah, like, like 22 years ago. Is it? Right. That is a deep cut call. Yeah. That's a really... It's a really good book, because when that happens, like I didn't see it coming. 14:16 I don't remember a sing- I read this book in like third grade. I don't remember. Third grade, that's a little young for Life of Pi. I said yeah. I might have been on there. I don't know. 14:24 Libby's like- 'Cause my mom is a librarian, like, is a librarian. She's still a librarian. Yeah. Once a librarian, always a librarian. [laughs] And, uh, she always would pick out really good books for me. 14:32 So, like, I have- Is this at the Buffalo Public Library? That and, like, the high school library, wherever. She was getting them wherever. She was just like, "This book-" Shout out to Buffalo, New York. 14:40 Shout out Buffalo, New York. That's where I'm from. Um, I still have my Buffalo library card- Wow... and my Boston one and a Cambridge one, 'cause I use all three of them on Libby to get books sooner. 14:52 You are sort of- I'm, I'm library-... dressed as if Arthur was a real boy, so. [laughs] It's just a sweater. It is the sweater. Yeah. It's, it's- He wears a crew neck, though. Yeah. 15:01 He wears a crew neck sweater on the card game. Yeah. He has two outfits. One of them is a sweater. Well, but if he'd grown up to be an adult, he would, he would have a much heavier cardigan. Yeah. 15:05 Like, if he were, like, a little bit cooler and were like, "Yeah, cardigans, machine this." [laughs] That's giving Aardvard. If he went to a liberal arts school- Yeah... he would, he would have switched to cardigan. 15:13 Yeah. You're like- Um-... Sarah Lawrence, uh, Sarah Lawrence Arthur. [laughs] Cole and I famously went to liberal arts school, and that's how we met. Mm-hmm. SCAC. New England. 15:22 First time we met in person was at a conference, um, to discuss campus sexual assault. Mm-hmm. And I stole- For real?... a tank top from him that said party with consent, and I still have it. Wow. 15:34 I don't know if I still have mine. We had... Like, that was a weird one. Well, we should steal his. No, no, no. But, like, I had multiple. Well, he had a lot of them. Okay. That's why I felt fine taking it. 15:40 Yeah, we had a lot of them. Yeah, it was good. It was a good memory. Um, but we didn't actually answer the what was the best thing that you ate in Tokyo [laughs] question. Yes. Yes, yes, yes. 15:48 Oh, man, that's a, that's a tough one. There was a lot of good food. I think their, their convenience store food is notably quite good, very fresh. 15:56 Um- I read, I read, by the way, they're gonna try to take 7-Eleven convenience... Like, how 7-Eleven- That style?... Japanese con- Yeah, they're taking it to America, um, I read somewhere. Congratulations, Jerry Saltz. 16:06 Yeah, 7-Eleven CEO. Congratulations, Jerry Saltz. You can go get, like, little hand rolls when you get your- Yeah... week of coffee. Anyways, the convenience store food. I know. Like, I'm excited for that. 16:12 So I, I did really like the egg salad sandwich, but, like, that's not... You know, it's pretty low bar. Like, I'm like, "I can make that at home." Yeah. Um, I did have, like, a... 16:21 I had a Wagyu beef burger on, like, the street, 16:25 and there were options for, like, single burger, double burger, and I'm like, "This has gotta be McDonald's style," where it's like they have the, the picture of it and it's like yay bi- It's the size of a burger you might get at, like, Applebee's or something like that- Yeah... 16:37 in the picture. And I'm like, "Okay, it's gonna be half this size. I'm gonna get the double." You know, I want more, more, uh, of the beef. 16:45 And I get the double, and it's, like, also Applebee's size, and this was, like, 10:00 AM. 16:48 [laughs] And it was really good, and I ate it, and I was like, "This was far too much for me at breakfast," and I was just, like, not hungry and had, like, meat- Did you have to compress it- I had, like-... 16:58 to put it in your mouth? [laughs] No. I slammed that thing, and then I had, like, meat sweats all day. [laughs] And there were other foods I wanted to try, and I'm like, "I don't feel good." Yeah. 17:08 We were, like, at lunch. 17:09 We went to a number of, like, different, um, I think restaurants and stuff like that, like different styles, and I was just like, "I'm gonna have, like, tiny bites here 'cause I'm still full of beef." 17:18 [laughs] Uh, on the, on the subject of travel, I read something this morning, news to me, perhaps news to you. Uh, Airbnb... This is a TechCrunch headline. 17:26 "Airbnb is becoming more social by allowing users to connect with fellow travelers." Um, I'm gonna read a brief excerpt from the article. 17:34 "First, when you book an experience, you'll be able to see the names of other people who are in the same experience, along with where they are from. 17:41 Once the event is over, you can connect with others you met during the experience to exchange photos or make further plans through the app's chat feature after sending them a message request. 17:51 Users will also see people they met in a new connections tab on their profile." Um, and then there's some bits about privacy. Um, but I thought this was, thought this was lame. Marketplace and dating app. 18:04 Everything, every app that sticks around long enough becomes a marketplace or a dating app sooner or later. Spotify just got DMs recently. 18:10 And speaking of marketplace, the other headline I took from TechCrunch this morning is X is launching a marketplace for buying inactive handles.I'm okay... The last one I'm fine with, honestly. Mm-hmm. 18:19 I feel like that's probably wise, but they're just gonna skim off the top there. Exactly. So- Do you have a handle in mind? I'll read- Is @Cole active? Definitely. He's, like, a pretty popular designer. Oh, okay. 18:28 He's also a designer, and he's better than me. [laughs] I'm gonna read a brief excerpt from this one too. It's big of you to admit. 18:33 X, X is launching a marketplace for inactive handles that will, uh, allow premium subscribers to request and purchase usernames. Marketplace will offer both free and paid options for requesting or acquiring handles. 18:43 Rare handles could be priced at anywhere from 2,500 to over seven figures. 18:48 Um, but the, the w- the weird thing here, uh, priority handles refers to usernames that often include full names, multi-word phrases, or alphanumeric combinations. 18:55 These handles are free to request for premium plus and premium business subscribers. Uh, here's the weird thing. If a user's request is approved, X will hand- will transfer the handle to them for free. 19:05 However, if a user cancels or downgrades their subscription, their old handle will return to their account after a 30-day grace period. So you can buy handles, but it sounds like to- You have to-... 19:18 maintain ownership, you have to keep paying some money. So it's like a domain. It's literally- Yeah... like a domain. Yeah. Mm-hmm. I guess I, I don't like that, but it kinda makes sense. 19:25 Xbox or one of those apps or, like, services does something like that, where you can, like, buy handles. Yeah. Like, you get assigned a handle randomly, and then you can buy better handles if you want. 19:36 Um, I wonder if they're now... It kinda kills, like, some of the creativity of the usernames. Well, I'm also reminded, like, uh, there was the whole thing where The Onion bought InfoWars a year or so ago. 19:50 Um, and then they... I forget the precise details, but basically Twitter, X, did not allow The Onion to get ownership of InfoWars' Twitter account because they said it was actually never InfoWars' property at all. 20:03 It was the property of X. Right. I mean- Hmm... I suppose that's true- Sounds like they forgot to get their source right... for all usernames. Yeah. It's like, how are you s- I mean, they can sell them, I guess. 20:14 Anyways- It is their property... I think next X, uh, uh, Elon Musk's A- X perhaps will be offering, um, travel experiences as it, as it pro- [laughs] proceeds. Yeah, the IRL meetups of- Of spaces... of Twitter. 20:29 Yeah, of, of Twitter. The IRL meetups- Mm-hmm... for Twitter. Rooms. 'Cause, like, that, that way a guy can coordinate fighting those people that were in his replies. Oh, yeah. [laughs] Um, yeah. 20:43 Anyways, I didn't really like either of these things. Um, the... I mean, Airbnb Experi- I feel like you should just, like, go to a bar to meet people. Right. 20:52 I get why they would do it, 'cause, like, people wanna have more of those, like, IRL meetups or whatever, and it's like, okay, you're doing the same thing. You have similar interests. 20:59 You're traveling, so you're more likely to be- Mm-hmm... like, open to maybe linking up with other people. Well, it's the, it's the Cruisification of, of casual trips. 21:08 Fans of Gia Tolentino have not taken her participation well. Oh, I forgot about this. Yeah. You guys are mad at Gia Tolentino for doing Airbnb's Spcon. 21:17 I'm mad at her for getting my husband's entire friend group addicted to Juul. What? [laughs] Did she write, like, the, the thick piece of Juul back in the day? 21:27 She sure did, and a lot of people who hadn't heard of it were like, "You know what? That sounds kinda cool." It is the least lame looking of the vapes. That I agree with. And it's back, right? 21:38 So- They're all bad for you. No, but it's back. It's back, 'cause they- Oh, it's back... 21:41 it had been, like, banned for regulation and then, like, the gray market ones that, like, could pop up and, you know, more fly-by-night, uh, vape brands. 21:48 But now the regulation has settled, and now Juul can come back, I think. I think it might be around certain flavors- Oh, okay... Francis, but I'm not 100% Like the good ones? I'm gonna... Yeah, the better ones. 21:58 Is Juul, is Juul back? For a while it was just mint and, and Virginia tobacco, and they nixed mango. Hmm. Okay. 22:06 It was, yeah, in, in July 2025, according to the Google AI overview, uh, Juuls are back on the market after the FDA reversed its 2022 brand, ban on the company's tobacco and menthol e-cigs. 22:19 That was Big Tobacco that lobbied for that, I am sure of it. Mm-hmm. Big Phil. Mr. Morris. Yeah, it was like Newport was like, "These terrible menthol cigarettes, we cannot have any competition." 22:32 [laughs] "We gotta get rid of Juul." [laughs] Did you, um, did you meet anybody in Japan, uh, that... or, or do you feel you could have used the Airbnb experiences, or did you meet some people naturally on the street? 22:45 I was, I was on, like, a coordinated trip through Brooks. Shout out- Mm... Brooks Running. Uh, no, they're not a sponsor, you can put that out. But- Oh, so you were on an experience? 22:52 I was on an experience organized already. But we had a great, uh, tour guide named Yu. Like, she does, she does, like, tours for all sorts of groups. 22:59 Um, and then the, like, PR/like, event company that organized it, like, they focus on running, and they, they were the ones that are, like, responsible for... 23:08 They found Yu, who was our tour guide, um, and, like, had a whole coordinated trip for us, which was great. And so, like, we were on a, uh, I was, like, with a bunch of other... 23:17 This is funny, 'cause it was, like, an influencer trip and we were working with the influencer team. I don't see myself as an influencer. I'm certainly not true media. I'm not real media. Uh- Hmm... 23:27 this was for my other- You can argue about that... side gig. Yeah. I was like, "I don't feel like I'm real media," but I don't feel like I'm an influencer either. 23:32 Like, I have a very limited Instagram presence for this thing called Running Supply, which covers, like, the intersection of running fashion, or, like, running and fashion, and then talk about marketing and brands and that sort of stuff. 23:43 Mm-hmm. Um, so, like, definitely there's some areas on Substack that are media, and some definitely are people that are just, like, influencers. This is maybe a little bit in between. 23:52 Um, but that's why I was there, and all these other people are huge. But, like, I didn't do any research on who I was going with. 23:58 So I just show up there and I'm like, "Ah, these are a bunch of, like, nice people," whatever. I was like, "This one girl's really funny. She has, like, a million and a half TikTok followers and is a comedian." 24:06 And I was like, "That is why she is funny. I get it." [laughs] Did you know it? Did you recognize any of them? Had, had any of them influenced you previously? 24:13 She looked really familiar, and I was like, "I feel like I've seen her somewhere." And I'm like, "Yeah, I've seen her on my Explore feed." Uh-huh.Was her name Lydia? It was not Lydia. Oh. 24:22 It was Allie and Helen Billayers. Billayers. Lydia's the only, um, big running TikToker that I know of. Oh, yeah, no, the- most of the people were life... This was, like, a lifestyle play for Brooks. Yeah. 24:33 I was the, probably the most running-y of the people there. Interesting. Well- Everyone else does run, but they were- You had the best pace of anybody there. [laughs] Yeah. We were not racing. 24:42 We, we did a little bit of running, but, like, more of it was, like, around Brooks the brand, and, like, lifestyle, and they're breaking back in there. 24:49 You've been tracking, um, running gear becoming more of lifestyle and fashion for people that are not traditional runners for a while, and, like, also the relationship that has with, like, the social signaling of run clubs, which is- Mm-hmm... 25:04 I guess an Airbnb experience minus the Airbnb. Um, so I was hoping- Spiritually... that you could talk about that a little bit. 25:10 Like, you and I have sort of talked about the various factors influencing this, like some of the bigger sneaker brands moving away from, like, making stuff for Olympians to making stuff for amateurs, and then maybe even falling off on some of their more Olympian-level gear. 25:25 So I don't know. I know it's, like, a lot, but can you give us the TLDR? Yeah. 25:31 So before, uh, any of these new challenger brands out, came out, so, like, before the Bandit Runnings and, like, Tracks and stuff like that, there was just, like, the major brands. 25:40 And, you know, if you look at, if you look at, like, the '70s, you think about, like, jeans. Like, there used to be just, like, one brand of jeans. 25:46 You'd go to, like, wherever department store, and, like, my mom would buy men's jeans 'cause there was just, like, one pair of jeans. Now there's, like, a million- Levi's, right... yeah. That's what I was gonna say. 25:53 You just bought Levi's, and just, like, it's this waist size and this length, and, like, if you want them to fit your body, you might need to get them tailored. Um, and there were, like, two colors. 26:03 Um, and now obviously there are a million options of those. But for a while, like, they were, like, the, the place you went to, and, like, you kind of didn't care. 26:11 You're just like, if you want jeans, these are the ones you're getting, and, like, that's it. Similar thing for running. It was just you had the major brands that are mostly footwear brands. 26:19 Like, there weren't really that many apparel-only running brands. Like, you had the running brands, and they did everything. They did footwear, they did apparel, sunglasses for Nike at least. Um, 26:31 and then right around, ooh, 2014, I wanna say, um, there was a lot of hot VC funding, and there was a guy in Boston who was like, "What if I made a cooler running brand that was more expensive?" 26:45 So that's how Tracksmith got started. Um, and shortly after them, Satisfy Running got started, which is, like, a Parisian-based, like, definitely more l- luxury fashion-y, uh, side of things. 26:58 But Tracksmith was, like, a really early one. They were, like, the, the first to the market. Um, so, like, everyone thinks about them as a startup, but they've been around for 11 years, um, 27:11 and, like, have stuck around and done, done relatively well. Um, but now, you know, in the last five years post, there's been, like, a huge boom in running clubs. You can see some of the data from Strava. 27:23 Like, they've shared a bunch of their studies on, like, the, the growth patterns of running clubs, but there's, like, a lot more people going into that. Um, a lot of people are in their mid-20s, early 30s. 27:34 They have disposable income. A lot of these are, like, the biggest ones are in major cities, and so there's a lot of money in running, and a lot of people that, like, want to invest in their hobby. 27:43 Um, and so it makes it easier, like, as a consumer market for these, like, sort of challenger brands. And then apparel is the easiest way to get into running. Like, running shoes take a while to develop. 27:56 Runners are very particular about them, 'cause, like, you can hurt yourself, and then you will not be running for a long time. Mm-hmm. Uh, but, like, apparel's pretty easy. 28:02 Like, if your apparel's bad, you can kind of fix it, and, like, the turnaround's not that terrible. Um, like, a T-shirt is really forgiving versus, like, a shoe. 28:12 It's really obvious if it's bad, and no one's gonna buy it. Um- Also, if you're gonna marathon in it, I did see a TikTok of a girl, I believe it was a Bandit shirt. Mm-hmm. But don't quote me on that. 28:23 I don't want a lawsuit. And she had sores from doing the marathon in it. Oof. Um, which is like, that's friction, right? Like, anything- We get chafing, right? Yeah... that's gonna create... Yeah. Chafing, yeah. 28:35 Anything is gonna create chafing if you wear it for long enough. But the really, really scientifically developed apparel brands are gonna go... 28:42 are gonna avoid that, 'cause the assumption is people are gonna be running marathons in it. Um- Right... 28:47 and so I guess that's, like, where things start to separate out between traditional and- Yeah, so, like, the really long distances. Yeah. 28:53 I would say, like, marathons, longer distance training, like ultra running is, like, I assume we're gonna see more growth there as well, 'cause more people are moving into the marathon and realize they're not very fast. 29:03 And they're like, "But I can keep going at this pace," and become ultra runners or do trail, 'cause it's, like, a little bit more of a, an adventure, I'd say. Like, it's less about speed. 29:13 Like, a lot of the spaces, like races, like, you're not looking for times. You're like, "Oh, I'm gonna go do it." And now that so many people are doing the marathon, it's, it's more of, like... 29:21 It's less of, like, a, "Oh, I'm doing the marathon." It's more of, like, a, "Well, how fast did you run the marathon?" Yeah. Mm-hmm. 29:26 Like, it's no longer a completion type thing, and the ultra races and, like, trail races are definitely still more just about completing- Like, did you finish?... the, the thing. Yeah. Like, did you do it? Yeah. 29:36 Um, and so I think that's also attractive to people. What's that one, I think it's in Tennessee, that's, like, this famously... Do you know what I'm talking about? Yeah, I always forget what it's called. 29:45 I'm a terrible runner for this. Um- I just r- I just remember reading about it once. It's the... There's some single word for it. The Barkley Marathons? Barkley. Lazarus Lake and His Impossible Race. Barkley Lake. Yeah. 29:58 Yeah. Yeah, people do it. 100 miles. It's pretty insane, though. Like, it is... Like, there are laps. Like, the payment is, like, you bring this guy basically, like, five pairs of socks or underwear, undershirts. Oh. 30:10 Uh, I think there's limited race support, and it's like- Is this on his property? I believe so. Interesting. He's, like, organized it for a while. Like, he's- That's cool... he's an interesting character. 30:19 Out of the 1,000 or so runners who've ever attempted the race, only 14 people have ever finished with 59,100 feet of climb. [laughs] It's the equivalent of climbing Mount Everest twice. Cool. 30:31 I think you should do this next year.I don't know if I have what it takes to do this one. [laughs] I was like, I've done some crazy stuff. I don't, I don't know if this is in the cards. It's, like, really rugged too. 30:40 Like, it's not just the climbing, it's, like, some of the footing is really bad. You did a desert. Did you do a desert run? I did, yeah. 30:46 I, I, uh, paced my friend-- I crewed my friend who did a, an ultramarathon through the Atacama Desert. Wow. Um, and probably ran, I don't know, at least six hours a day with her, but probably more. 30:58 But like- I didn't use a watch for either of the... Like, I've paced her twice or crewed her twice and, like, I don't bring a watch 'cause, like, I don't wanna know how much I'm actually running. 31:05 Can you explain, like, what that entails? Uh, the race itself or, like, crewing? Crewing, yeah. 31:11 Um, so for crewing, like, you are, uh, sort of someone's bestie for, like, all day while they're running and making sure they have the water they need, they're sunscreening, eating food and stuff like that. 31:23 Just 'cause, like, they're out of it and not really thinking about, like, a day ahead or two days ahead. 31:30 So, like, you need to make sure, like, you're coordinating with them, making sure they're, like, taking-- g- going the right direction, um, and just, like, overall keeping them company. 31:36 But you have to keep pace with them. Yeah, you also have to keep pace with them. And for, like, these ultras for me, like, that's not hard. We're going, you know, 13, 12, 12, 13 minute pace, sometimes walking. 31:47 You know, if you're eating, like, ramen or something like that, we're not running while we're eating ramen. How many days does this take? But we might stay moving. 31:52 The last one took three days, and then the, um, or the, uh, the Atacama one took, like, a little over three days. And then- Do people run through the night? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I think we slept... 32:04 The most we slept was in the Atacama one. We also did LA to Vegas. Wow. Uh, the most we slept was the Atacama one. 32:09 So the first night we got stopped at a police station 'cause they didn't want us to go into the next town 'cause there were, 32:15 there were robbers, and we were driving a mining truck, and the robbers tend to target mining trucks. Why? Not so much, like, because we were from out- outside. The mining trucks have, like, expensive equipment in them. 32:25 And so, like, someone would be like, "Oh, here's this mining truck. It's got equipment in the back. Let's steal it." And so the, the... 32:31 I think they had, like, a newer police officer working the night shift, and he was like, "If these Americans go through and get robbed, my boss is gonna come in in the morning and be super mad." Mm. 32:41 And so that was my guess. So he made us stay there until the morning. Wow. So we had, like, a six or eight-hour lead, and then that got erased 'cause we just, like, slept in the parking lot, which was nice, but... 32:50 Were you-- But who was driving the truck? Was there a third person? Yeah, so me, um, my friend Carly was racing, and then her sister Wynn. So, like, we were, uh, alternating driving. Mm-hmm. 33:01 But, like, I probably ran more of it just 'cause I was, I was happy to. Wynn, Wynn's certainly less of a runner and definitely better at driving manual than I am. I was not super strong. 33:08 Did you sleep in the truck, in the back of the truck? Uh, no, we would just, like, camp on the side of the road. Okay. 'Cause, like, after that first night, we were not sleeping more than, like, four hours. Yeah. Yeah. 33:16 Like, we would just pull off to the side of the road, set up a mat, and, like, we were not setting up our tent. 'Cause you lost your lead. Yeah. Uh, less so, like, lost the lead, just we were just not... 33:25 We wanted to be done, and she was, like, not trying to sleep full nights. 33:28 And it was pretty competitive between us and this other guy, Aaron, who's, like, a great ultramarathoner as well, and, like, he was not taking super long rests. And, like, that's kind of the secret. How cold did it get? 33:38 Way colder than I thought. Yeah. I did not look. The desert is cold at night. I did not do enough research. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't do enough research. It was about 13,000 feet. Wow. 33:45 So I got there, really thin air, gets really cold. Desert gets cold at night. Probably got down to, like, 40 maybe. Yeah. Um, [lips smack] and I had a sleeping bag coated for maybe 55, 60 degrees. Like, I was freezing. 33:58 Oh, that's the worst feeling. That's such a- I did-- The first night I didn't sleep anyway... that's such a warm... That's not even [laughs] I've never heard of sleeping bags. 34:04 No, it's like a really lightweight sleeping bag- Yeah, yeah... that I have for, like, summer camping trips. That makes sense, yeah. I don't go camping in the winter [laughs] or in the desert in Chile. 34:12 Wait, so, so something I'm interested in here, though, is this, like, you said something about, like, how marathons now have become so much more about, like, performance and, like, your time, your time, et cetera, and, like, how you're implying that maybe that didn't used to be the case, and it was more just about finishing it. 34:24 And so, like, the culture of, like, people who wanna do it just to do it, like, you-- that's kind of hard to do now, and you have to do an ultramarathon. 34:32 Say more about this, like, performance versus just, like, doing it to do it culture. Yeah. I think, I think so... Fewer people-- Like, more people than ever are doing marathons now. Like, all of the sign up, 34:43 uh, like, all the stuff for Boston's gotten more competitive. There's a time cut off for Boston, just for, like, for our listeners. Um, there's a pretty competitive, uh, raffle entry for, like, New York and Berlin. Yeah. 34:54 So, like, those are the major marathons. There are plenty of other ones that are, like, easier to get into, but, like, the applications year over year have increased a lot in the last five years. 35:02 Um, pretty much every year we've had, like, the most applicants to all these marathons, which is, like, makes s- makes sense given we're seeing more people get into running. 35:12 Um, and the marathon is just, like, a distance that people know about. Um, usually there's some sort of, like, foundations. You're like, "Okay, this is, like, a, a hard thing to accomplish. 35:20 I'm gonna set this high goal, and, like, that's gonna get me running 'cause, like, I wanna start running." Very few people are like, "I wanna run a 5K, so, like, that's gonna get me into running." 35:27 Most people can, like, run a 5K. Like, you can go couch to 5K and, like, accomplish one, um, like, if you're, you know, young and healthy. Um, 35:38 I think for the marathon, so many people are doing it now that it's, like, not as much of an accomplishment. And so you're looking like, "Oh, I want to get into Boston," which is very much an accomplishment. 35:50 You have to... You know, if you're a man between 22 and 40, I think your time has to be, like, under three hours or 2:56, which is, like, just under seven minute pace, which is, like, relatively fast, right? Um, 36:05 so obviously something like that makes it definitely more of a, of a time thing, like, to get in these races because there's so many more applicants. They've gotten more competitive to get into. 36:14 Um, and I think if you're looking to do something where it's like, "Oh, this is hard," and so many people are doing marathons, it's not perceived as that hard. It is. Trust me, it's still hard. 36:25 Uh, they're moving to doing more of, like, those adventure races like that that are in, like, the 50K range. 50K is five miles more than a marathon, so it's 31 miles. 36:34 So it's, like, technically an ultra, but it's just over distance. Um, and if you do it on trail, it's gonna be slower.I do think they're a little easier on the body 36:46 just because it's on, like, a softer surface that's, like, changing grade and stuff like that, and you're going slower. Um, and also people, I think, do a better job, like, eating during those- Mm... 36:56 because, like, it's, they stress it more. It's like you feel... can feel better at the end versus if you're running, trying to run hard for a marathon, like, you're maybe not hitting every single aid station. 37:07 And, like, maybe your stomach is, like, feeling a little upset because you're, like, on your limit. 37:11 Um, but for a lot of us, like, you just can't be on your limit, so you have to, have to take care of yourself a little better. Can you talk about Soul Retriever as a business? Like, why did you start this company? 37:24 How many employees do you have? [laughs] Um, you know, how do you make money, et cetera? For sure. Um, so I got into, like... I was into, like, menswear in college, and so I feel like there was- We know... like posts... 37:37 Yeah, we know. We know. And, uh, that, you know, the salvaged denim and, like- I read Four Pins as well. Yeah. 37:46 If you're, like, reading Four Pins and stuff like that, like, a lot of those people, I feel like you went into a little more streetwear for a hot second while it was, while it was big. 37:53 Mutual friend Sam Hine can always speak to- Yeah... what's hot in there... mutual friend Sam Hine w- [laughs] Always speaking to what's hot in menswear and, and, and sneakers and stuff like that. [laughs] So the, uh, the 38:04 sneaker boom, like especially, like, amongst like hype shoes and stuff like that right around, uh, like Yeezys and whatnot. That would've been 2012 or so. I was not- That's like right when we graduated... 38:15 basically right after we graduated- Yeah... people were, like, starting to bot shoes and, like, it was getting really competitive, and the resell value was, like, astronomical on these shoes. 38:24 Um, right around 2017 or so, I probably got into it a little more a bit. Um, my ex-girlfriend was like, "You should resell sneakers if you, like, wanna make money." And I was like, "Huh, never thought about that." 38:37 Was, like, looking into more of, like, the, the streetwear stuff. She was really cool. I still follow her on Instagram. She still is really cool. Um, she's not in the, not in the streetwear reselling game anymore. 38:47 She's a, uh- [laughs]... she does garden design. She likes being outside. She was, she was seeking a n- a, a calmer life, I think, from, from consulting and flipping sneakers. Um, but the, uh... 39:00 Like, there was, like, the whole streetwear thing, so I just, like, started following that a little bit more. 39:03 I got a little hypebeasty, um, and realized the money wasn't in selling the sneakers, it was selling software to the people that were trying to buy the sneakers, 'cause you never were losing money. There you go. 39:14 You were always making money. Um, so I made- Picks and shovels, baby. Yep. So I was selling sho- I was selling pickaxes and shovels instead of mining, and, uh, that was, that was a lot easier. 39:26 I would do so- new software already, so, like, I just designed, uh, like, and built out a, a software system to, like, help people do this sort of thing that made it cheaper for them. A lot of people were... 39:37 Like, the community, I would say, or, like, especially people selling software within the, the sneaker botting and, like, sneaker reselling community is, like, not super honest. Like, the whole market's a real gray area. 39:48 Um, and, like, I feel like a lot of people aren't very professional, and so, like, that's... 39:53 I was just like, "I'm gonna make this thing cheaper, and, like, I'm gonna charge this fee and be pretty transparent about, like, what I'm charging." 39:59 And so that really appealed to people, and it was pretty low maintenance. Um, and I got a little bit of a reputation as a developer in the community, and that's how I got connected to the other two co-founders. 40:11 Like, they had hired, unbeknownst to them, a high schooler to- [laughs]... build the site out. Hate it when that happens. And he knew- Still, still can't believe they wasn't bragging about that... exactly. 40:22 [laughs] They did not know. Like, they were just like, "Oh, there's this sneaker developer. He's accomplished. Like, he said he could do it for X amount of money or whatever." 40:28 Um, and he hit me up, and he was like, "Ah, I'm kind of stressed with this project. Um, it's kind of, like, way over time. It's July, like, end of July. I'm going back to school in September. 40:41 Can you, like, help me finish this?" Oh, sorry, I'm 15 years old. [laughs] Yeah. And I was like- [laughs]... "You're going back to school? Like, what school?" He was like, "High school." 40:48 [laughs] And I was like, "Oh, no." It's not like he's in college where he's got, like, time between classes- Right... or weekends or, like, is away and, like, can freelance. 40:54 This is just, like- No, he's got orchestra in the morning and then school the next- Yeah... he's got basketball practice I was like, "He's gonna be gone from 8:00 to 3:00 and, like, has to do homework." 41:00 He has to do homework. Fuck. Right. Like, I'm like, "This is not gonna be a thing where he's gonna be able to, like, hack on this and, like, also be a high schooler." Um, and I was like, "Ah, okay. Let me take a look." 41:11 I... So I looked through the project. I'm like, "This is probably not quite half done." Um, I was like, "Let me just, like... I'll go talk to these guys and tell them what's up." 41:20 I was like, "Would you be happy if you could, like, them not be mad at you- [laughs]... you get paid out for half of the project, and you don't have to touch it again, and, like, I will handle it for you?" 41:30 He was like, "That would be... That would lift so much stress off my shoulders." 'Cause, like, I've been in that situation where I've been, like, over my head and then, like- Wow... at deadlines and stuff. 41:38 I was like, "I've been there before," and I was like, "If this were me, I would be so stoked to get paid, like, a few grand and, like, just not have to worry about this project-" Oh, yeah... and, like, call it a win." 41:46 Get a jail free. And, like, no one was abs- Yeah, just, like, get a jail free card. I was like, "I will take care of this for you." And I talked to the guys. 41:51 I was like, "Listen, if you give me, like, a little bit of budget, I'll do this for free. I'm not gonna code it or anything, but, like, I will manage. I'll find a developer. 41:58 I'll throw it together 'cause, like, I'm doing this kid a favor, and, like, I'll do you guys a favor because I think this is a cool idea. 42:04 And, like, I'll throw together a design, and, like, as long as my design gets used, I will just, like, manage the developer so then, then I can say, like, 'Oh, I did this project.'" 42:13 Um, and then I just kinda, like, s- kept doing it 'cause it was, like, pretty fun, and I was, like, already in that space. You got addicted to the shindig. That's what I have to say. I got addicted to the shindig. Yeah. 42:22 Um- You walked a mile in his shoes- And, like, was having a lot of fun... soles. Right. Yeah. That's terrible. In his soles. Um, no, the kid, like, later he went on to... He was, like, doing a... 42:32 I'm sure he's doing well now. Um, he went on to- And that boy was William Shakespeare. [laughs] And that boy was William Shakespeare. Um- That boy was Virgil Abloh. Uh- [laughs] Yeah. RIP. Oh, no. 42:41 Rest in peace.Um, but he, yeah, he came back, like, years later and was at, like, an MIT coding camp, like, his going to his senior year, and he's like, "Oh." And he, like, took me out to a really nice dinner. 42:52 And I'm like, clearly he's still doing super well. I was like, I was like, "And he paid for it." That's awesome. He was retired. He had to get, like, a s- Yeah, he's basically retired. 43:00 He's like, "Yeah, like, I'm, I'm going to school next year. I got, like, a full ride. Like, I'm doing computer science." I'm like, "Awesome, man." He's like- Totally appropriate... "Let me take you out for..." Yeah. 43:08 He's like, "Let me take you out for dinner. I had to get a special permission slip signed by my parents for the camp." What? [laughs] I get, like, Ubered over to Cambridge, took me out to dinner. 43:15 [laughs] And I was like, "This kid's ballin'." Like, he showed up in, like, very cool clothes. Mm-hmm. I showed up in, like, very normal ones. [laughs] He was in, like, Rick Owens. What were the shoes? 43:23 Yeah, he was, like, wearing Rick Owens pants and, like- But you were wearing J.Crew. [laughs] Yeah. [laughs] I was wearing, like, Levi's jeans and, like- Mm... a pair of Nikes. Not, like, cool ones, just, like, a pair. 43:32 Your R- uh, Roshe, Roshe Runs, Roshe Runs, whatever they are. Yeah, exactly. [laughs] I was, like, probably wearing a pair of Cortezs or something like that. Like, not lame. Well- They're, like, nice... 43:38 or shout out to- Not joking... New Balance, though, also a Massachusetts native company. Have you ever been to their- Oh, yeah, privately owned... their headquarters? Oh. I've gone through part of it. I still... 43:47 I was promised a tour of the archives, which I'm excited to see. I can't wait to go through the archives and be like- I was told by New Balance Care. 43:53 [laughs] Yeah, I was like, I was told- Do you guys work at- Well, no... Apple Care? Never mind. No. Oh, New Balance Care. Do they really have that? No. They should. Oh, that'd be fun. 44:03 Uh, I was, I was tol- told by New Balance Care that I would get a [laughs] that I would get a tour of the archive, and I'm, like, excited to go through there and be like, "Yep, I ran in those in high school." Mm-hmm. 44:13 "And they are now vintage." [laughs] I have that, I have that, I have that. Yep. I was like, I ran so many miles in those because of this one runner and ruined my Achilles tendons. [laughs] Oh. 44:24 Well, I mean, this might be, like, an exposure bias to me, but I feel like Blackbird Spy Plane had, like, a really big role in, like, making those grayed out New Balances cool again. 44:36 I do feel like that's exposure bias, but I agree. But they, they are exposing a lot of people. Mm-hmm. Yeah. They have a pretty big following. They have a lot of influence. Yeah. 44:44 I've never owned a pair of Sh- New Balance. They're great shoes. Cole will steal you some from the archive. Yeah. I'll steal some from the archive. He's gonna go loot mode. I did really like- Yeah... 44:52 there was this, like, New Balance- 9:30 AM, I'm gonna be over there. [laughs]... New Balance Stray Rats, like, five years ago or something. Oh, yeah. Those are cool. Those... Yeah, that was really good. Mm-hmm. 45:00 Better than probably anything I own. I don't think I've ever owned a pair either. No. Actually, I have. I have. Yeah. But I was a lot younger. 45:05 I didn't run in them in high school, but I have since just 'cause, like, they are readily available in the Boston area. Mm-hmm. 45:11 There's, like, a factory store here, and I have, like, five friends that work at New Balance that are like, "Hey- Oh, yeah... we have an extra pair of nine and a halves. Who wants them?" Mm. 45:19 And then you get free shoes, which is great. Such a good perk. I- It's a great perk... have skipped a lot of the recent sneaker fashion trends. I kinda skipped Sambas. 45:27 I skipped, um- I did Salomons, but I, I started running in Salomons- Mm... like, 2019, and then, like, two or three years ago there started to be... I, I couldn't, I couldn't do it. There's too many of them everywhere. 45:37 And you're like, "I don't wanna play with you anymore." They're so comfortable. They're great shoes, though. Toy Story style. [laughs] They're pretty much- I'm done with you. 45:42 [laughs] I still have a pair that I use for, like, painting or have, like, when I painted this apartment when I moved in, that kinda thing. You're like, "Oh, Salomons? You mean my painting shoes?" Mm-hmm. 45:51 My b- I have like- That's me. I-... painting shoes... I have, like, a really beat up pair of, like, white ones I got on Essence. My running shoes are actually Salomons. Um- RIP. 46:01 Yeah, when my fiance used to work at this website where she would write about gear stuff. Mm-hmm. And so we got sent those. Which website? Gear Patrol. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I know the Gear Patrol folks. Yeah. 46:12 It was- That's pretty cool... it was a great time. Yeah, I was like, I have a pair of Salomon gravel shoes. Hm. Which is, like, a new, very interesting new, like, trend into running. They're... 46:22 Gravel's taken off in cycling. Like, it's kind of like a- Uh, yeah, I know about it for cycling, but I forget- Yeah... it's like, I know of, like, street running and, like, track running and trail running. 46:31 Is this, like, kind of like- Right. Gravel's like intermediate trail where it's like they're trying to sell, like, the door to trail thing. 46:38 And I guess as someone that's been in the industry for a lot longer, like, in the running industry, like, I've been in the running world, but not industry- Mm-hmm... for a while. 46:47 I guess they've tried to, like, bring it in a few times, like the whole idea of road to trail where it's, like, a mixed, 46:54 uh, mixed footing or mixed surface shoe, which I'm like my regular running shoe is a mixed surface shoe. Uh, it's, like, grip is not an issue when I'm, like- Yeah... 47:02 switching from regular road to dirt road, it's, it's fine. But, uh, they've been trying to, like, make that a thing, so they're pushing, like, little gravels. 47:09 That's kind of like a rebrand of something that's already happening. Like, Don Draper was like, "These cigarettes are toasted." And it's, like, like, the pack was toasted. 47:15 Like, all of them are toasted, but because you- Right... said toasted you get to claim that as a brand moat. Right. And it... I do think there's, like... They definitely have a little bit more tread. 47:24 So, like, if you're, like, doing light trail or something like that where it's, like, from your hou- Like, if you live in, like, I don't know, Flagstaff or something like that, and you can, like, go out the door and then get on some, like, dirt roads, it is, like, nice to have something a little more, 47:36 uh, suitable for it, but you could certainly be fine with just a regular pair of running shoes. 47:42 Francis, are you the one who was talking about how, like, Lay's said that they were made with real potatoes but, like, a lot of the population doesn't know that? Uh, no. All right. 47:51 I've always assumed that Lay's were made with real potatoes. [sighs] I'm sorry. They're not corn chips. I talk to t- I talk to too many people on a weekly basis. Shout out w- to whoever was talking about that. 47:58 It's potato chips. I think... Yeah, Pringles are, like, compress- Pringles are, like- Pringles are a mix of-... processed food stuff... it's, like, a- Yeah... special thing. It's, like, a combo- Yeah, that's, like, a-... 48:08 of things, but Lay's, just potatoes. Pringles is, uh, must... It's probably asbestos, Pringles. Yeah, Pringles I feel like are, like, f- the, like, the fiber board or, like, the- The HuHot chips... what are they? Mm-hmm. 48:19 Ugh. Those are stacked, like- Well, what's the, what's, like, the- Mm-hmm... what's, like, the, the cheap wood that they use? MDF? I feel like- Mm... Pringles are like the MDF of chips. 48:26 [laughs] I always remember that because my married initials are MDF. Mm. My married- You're so much better than that. I married into particle board- [laughs]... initials. Did you ever, did you ever go by Marissa? 48:38 Not really. No? No. Yeah. Like, my brother went by Alfred. You could have been The Risky Business on Twitter. [sighs] Uh, you know, if I have toYou could buy that on the marketplace... 48:47 my older brother, he's only two years older than me, and he would call me Rissa Daisy. Mm. And then he just dropped the Rissa. Oh. And yeah, the rest is history. That's cute. 48:56 I don't think I ever knew the origin of your nickname. Yeah. This is the first time I'm hearing it. Well, Daisy is like my legal middle name, so- Yeah... um, my cousins- Oh... 49:05 shout out to my cousins, like their names are like really just not even at all their names. Um, my cousin, whose real name is Juliana, I had to think about that for a second. 49:16 [laughs] Her older sister, when she was born, was like sort of like peekaboo street style, just like, "No, I'm gonna call her Nibby Butterfly." [laughs] And so like that's my cousin Nibby. 49:28 Um, and then my cousin Christina, again, never called her Christina in my life. She goes by Cricket, always has. Um, so 49:38 yeah, I guess we're one of those families where it's a little bit of a choose your adventure situation. Hm. Nibby Butterfly. Nibby Butterfly. That sounds... 49:45 I feel like you'd be like selling Maximus glass jewelry out of a small studio in the Lower East Side. 100%. Or bombs. 49:52 They grew up in Maine, so it's like one of those things where it's like these are either hippies or wasps. Mm-hmm. Like no in between, 'cause you know wasps- Right... have all these weird like names. Right. 50:01 Like Cricket, I feel like I was like, that could easily be like... And you know, y- the first time you hear her name, is at her like deb ball. Yes. It could be Dr. Bronner's. And you're like, "Who is that?" 50:10 And she walks out and looks beautiful, and you're like, "Oh my God, that's Cricket." [laughs] Right. Cricket is either like Muffy's sister or somebody who uses Dr. Bronner's. Muffy's sister. Okay. 50:19 This, this reminded me of something I wanted to ask you. Um, Mothtech, Satisfy's Mothtech. 50:25 For listeners who don't know, Satisfy, this luxury running brand we were talking about, they've got this Mothtech, which I think, you know, when they write it, it's like a TM next to it, but it's just, it's just- It's trademarked, yeah... 50:34 just holes in the shirt. Yep. Right? There's nothing like... There's... It's just like a- No way... a look. It's like a Hannah Horvath like yellow mesh crop top. Yeah. 50:43 It's very like the distressed, the distressed denim, like the ripped denim jeans, like the more rips in the jeans- It's like what you wear to like Diplo's run club. Yes. Ooh, do I join. 50:51 Uh, or if you're like running in... Or if you're running in New York, I would say. Yeah. Like, it, there's definitely more of it in New York, not in Boston. Hm. No one's wearing, no one is wearing Satisfy in here. 51:02 Everyone's wearing Brooks. Uh, everyone's wearing like Tracksmith around here- Mm... honestly. I did, I did want to get by the way- And Brooks... Tracksmith was like kind of the first wave of all these brands. 51:11 That was interesting. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. They started this. Hm. They got out of the ground. And then Janji is also a local Boston one, and they got off the ground in like 2017, I wanna say. 51:20 They're, they definitely skew more like traditional looking stuff, but they've definitely moved to, like they've definitely moved beyond that. You did some work with Tracksmith, right? Yeah. 51:29 I've [laughs] modeled for them a little bit in, uh [laughs]- Oh, excuse me... during COVID. I didn't know who you were talking to. And then als- And then, uh, oh, yeah. 51:36 Um, well, 'cause they needed people locally, like during all that. Well, I was reading in your newsletter too, you've sold like vintage running gear for like pop-ups. 51:42 I've done some like vintage pop-ups with them as well. Yeah. 'Cause like they... Th- their CEO, Matt, is like, has a ton of like old, like historic running stuff, 'cause like he's a collector. 51:50 The store has kind of like got memorabilia in it, which is really cool. Hm. Um, very like, I don't know, like Ralph Lauren style type of thing. Um, or like ALD, I guess, or Bodie. And, uh, 52:02 yeah, so like, he was like, "Oh, I'd love to do this." He heard that I'd done one before with the sock company Swiftwick. Um, the CEO of Swiftwick is Mark Chu. 52:09 Like, he used to write for Esprezza, and like, he's like a also like selvage denim, like Red Wing boots, menswear era guy, and he was like much older. 52:18 Like he was, he, he was probably out of college reading Four Pins kind of thing. [laughs] Mm-hmm. So like he has a lot more, a lot more, uh, history there, and he was like, "I wanna do this vintage thing." 52:28 Heard that I was interested in doing it, and was like, "Let's put this together." Tracksmith saw that one and was like, "I would love to do this." Um, it's weird- As a curation... as a curation. Yeah. 52:37 So like I've just like pulled together a collection for each of the major marathons for them. And where did you source this stuff? Can you give us like- Mostly online... what the special sauce? Yeah. Yeah. 52:45 No, mostly online. It's like no sauce, just like checked every single- Just knowing how to use eBay... Poshmark, Mercari, eBay. Is it getting harder to find stuff though? Definitely. 52:53 We were talking about- Yeah, like I-... this Danny, right? Like too many people know what they have. Yeah. It, it's just easy to look up what you... 52:59 Like, you could post, like do a Google reverse image search of whatever you have and be like, "Oh, cool. This is selling for $250." Yeah. Uh, so the only way- Knowing a couple people-... to find stuff now is like-... 53:09 is not a moat anymore. Yeah, it's like- AI killed, uh, price arbitrage. [laughs] Yeah. So now you have to like know people locally. 53:15 So like one of my friends, um, or like acquaintance is store owner, uh, in, of this place called Bill City. 53:22 Um, this guy Jeff, he has been like sourcing a lot of stuff from like dealers, and that's the only way really to get, you know, the source stuff, 'cause they're not interested in listing one-off items. 53:32 Um, I think for like more iconic races like these majors, people know what they have, so like you're not getting too many diamonds in the rough here. Yeah. Mm-hmm. 53:40 And like most of those dealers aren't selling those ones either, 'cause like they would be like, "Oh, I know I can get $50 or $80 for this specific T-shirt," so they will pull that out of the pile- That's cheap... 53:49 photograph it, and sell it, sell it online. Yeah. Right. It's still, yeah, compared to some of the other stuff, it's cheap. I'm sure it'll be triple that now. 53:56 Like, I feel like I'm kicking myself now, 'cause like I sold, you know, jackets for Swiftwick, like vintage Nike Boston Marathon jackets for like 125, 'cause I was like, "I don't wanna rip people off, but I can easily get 250 for them." 54:09 Yeah. And now they're going for 250 online. That's crazy. So I was like, I'm trying to price them like pretty... 54:13 I'm like pricing them like not in the most rip-off way, 'cause it, otherwise it'll be look bad for Tracksmith and me. Mm-hmm. 54:20 But, uh, Satisfy has no problem charging 140 for their Mothtech T-shirts, and then if you're in the US and you're buying it, you're also gonna pay a tariff. Mm. Love tariffs. Well, I feel the same way. 54:31 I, we're starting... You know, we've had Prune clippings for a while with our design newsletter, and we're starting to source our own stuff and dip a toe into that. 54:38 And so I bought a bunch of stuff that's been like- Mm-hmm... arriving at my house. 54:42 And like obviously I bought stuff that was underpriced, but not with like the goal of like-Price gouging our readers, 'cause they're our readers. That's, like, our community. 54:53 But with the goal that, like, if I priced it what I think it should've been in the first place, that we would make a little bit of money back, um, for the labor of having curated it, which is, like, what it should be about. 55:03 But [laughs] in a high- Well, then is that-... in a high-trust society... is that then something that's, like, behind the paywall? [smacks lips] No. 55:10 Clippings, uh- Like, I rem- I remember too, um, I- I'm not a paid subscriber to Blackbird Spy Plane anymore- Yeah... 55:17 but I was for, like, a year or two, um, a few years ago, and they had, like, the Spy Plane Mall, which was like a paywalled- Yeah... like, post that they would frequently update with, like, eBay links. 55:27 And so they weren't even- [laughs]... buying it. They were just curating it for you. Um, but I, I thought that was, like, a kind of... 55:32 I, I liked that as an idea and just having it, like, we're gonna curate this for you behind the paywall. You, you go buy it yourself, but, like, this is a service we're offering to, to paid subscribers. 55:41 That's how Clippings works now, but it's probably... It's not really possible for us if we list it on our Shopify, 'cause even if the- Oh, totally. Yeah... 55:48 the description of what it is inside the newsletter is paywalled, people could still find it. Um, that's actually why I bought that off- executive office book, um, in the first place. To resell. To resell. 56:00 Um, but it has a little rip in the cover, so I think I might just, like, keep it. Um, but maybe I'll find another cheap copy and flip it. Well, listener- There you go... 56:08 if you wanna find, uh, a cheap copy yourself, you should go look it up on eBay. Yeah. This has been Tasteland. Cole, thank you for joining us. Thank you, Cole. Thanks, guys, for having me. Appreciate it. 56:18 Cheers. [outro music]
