Transcript 0:00 [upbeat music] Welcome back to Tasteland. I am Francis Zera. And I'm Daisy Aliotto. And who are we speaking to today, Daisy? Today we're speaking with Adam Voith. 0:16 He is a novelist and the editor and publisher of Little Engines, uh, which is a literary publication and also community, and he's a retired music agent. So, 0:28 um, very knowledgeable about books and music, which are two things that we love to discuss on this- Mm... podcast- Two classic topics... technology and marketing. One [laughs] ostensibly. 0:40 [laughs] The, the ostensibly- Yeah... is, is a really... I don't know how much fur- how much longer ostensibly can bear that load. Um. 0:46 [laughs] Something I was thinking about as I was preparing for this episode today, it is election day as we record. Um, and a, I think a week ago, 0:57 a we- like a, or no, I mean, a year ago, like a year and a week ago was when we did our live show, um, and we had a few indie media titans- Mm... I would say there. 1:08 But I remember, because it was just a couple weeks after Zarrin had launched his campaign, and we were talking about it, and I remember Max Rivelin- Riv- Max Rivlin-Nadler from Hellgate saying like, "Oh yeah, like, uh, he, you know, he's, he's, he's like a, he's gonna run, he's gonna, not gonna win that much, but he's gonna pull whoever is running a little bit to the left, and, and then, you know, give, he'll endorse them." 1:33 Um, and I was just thinking about that this morning as he seems to be surging to victory. Um, I can't believe that was a year ago. Yeah, I mean, that's definitely what I thought as well. 1:46 I thought, "Oh, he'll shift the Overton window," and I paid attention to him as an assemblyman because, like, I knew him from college. 1:54 So I was telling Ben it feels like, I mean, not to make this about me, but it feels like a movie- That's okay. This podcaster about... where you're like... 2:01 If it was a movie in my life, I would just be like sitting in Arabic class across the, like, seminar table from Zarrin, and then we would jump cut to now where, like, I get in my car and before, like, Spotify kicks in, I get, like, the static-y radio channel that, like, whatever it is, and it's like, "Mayoral candidate Zarrin Mamdani," and I'm like, "What?" 2:19 [laughs] You know, it's still so surreal, but, you know, he has the skills. He is such a talented politician. The juice, yeah. 2:29 And he really is the same person that he was in college as far as I can tell, and, like, he deserves it. And I'm just happy to have something to get excited about, to be honest. Um, I'm scared for him sometimes, but, um, 2:48 yeah, I think it's really been incredible to watch, and it's meaningful to me to see somebody that I feel like I kinda, like, came of age with doing something- Mm-hmm... so impactful. 3:01 It is beautiful, but listener, you're, you are listening to this from the future, 24 hours or so after we record likely. Um, so you tell us who won [laughs] the New York mayoral election. Yeah. 3:14 Well, Francis and I actually saw each other recently. Francis came to the Dirt Halloween party. 3:19 Um, and we will certainly all be over Halloween by the time you listen to this, but it was really good to see you, and, um- Nice to see you too... it was a really fun night. 3:28 We had a- It was a real Friend of the Pod summit. It was a Friend of the Pod summit, a good cast of characters, um, sort of Dirt inner circle. 3:39 Danny Loftus was there, and we chatted about, uh, Creative Complaint, which is the ICK Podcast that she's kicking off. Mm. 3:48 Um, we finally announced The Desire Question, which is the other podcast that Dirt's doing, and I'm really excited about that. We'll have to have Laura on at some point. Yes, absolutely. 3:59 Um, for those of you that don't know, The Desire Question is an extension of our viral Dirt prompt where we ask people whether it's better to desire or be desired. 4:08 Um, but for the first season of the podcast, we're sort of narrowing it to asking authors this question and then having them talk about the way desire shows up in their books. 4:18 Um, and Laura Federico, the host, is a couples therapist and sex therapist, so I feel like she's going to be such a compelling interviewer on this topic, and I have said with no false humility, I hope that these podcasts blow our podcast [laughs] out of the water, um, because we are so... 4:39 I think Tasteland sort of sets the tone for what people are thinking about in the Dirtyverse, but- Mm-hmm... we don't have a narrow gimmick. Um- Much to our detriment... and we've talked about that off and on. Yeah. 4:53 [laughs] So I mean, Tasteheads, we love that you listen, but we know the podcast can be random, and so I'm interested- Thank you for sticking with us... 5:00 to see whether ag- a gimmick is the thing that will set these podcasts apart, and then maybe Francis and I can come up with a gimmick. With a gimmick of our own. But probably not. Probably not. 5:11 [laughs] We're probably just gonna keep riffing. We'll probably keep doing what we're doing. Um, I'm excited to listen to that. I love Laura, uh, wife of friend of the pod and my former boss, Ariel Rubin. Yeah. 5:22 Um, she's a, she's a wonderful- Okay, well now we're gonna reveal the nepotism at the heart- Okay... of this project. Well, Daisy, you just talked about how you know Zarrin Mamdani. 5:31 You're trying to, you know, draw this nepotism string. This is just, we're just, this is just the way the world works. 5:37 I actually- You know, we're, we're pulling back the- Yeah, I actually think this is a really good example of, like, people making connections. It's, it's just, it's just community is really what it is. 5:48 Yeah, and when you f- I've heard the first episode of the podcast already, and when you hear it- Oh, oh, you've already started recording? Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah, and second podcast today is being recorded with Stefan Bogoes. 5:58 So when you hear it, you're gonna know nobody else could have done-This podcast. I actually had- Yeah... the concept in mind for a while because- It's fantastic... 6:07 our WME agent texted me out of the blue, like, maybe six months ago and was like, "I have-" Two out of four... "an idea I need to talk to you." And I was like, "Well, can't wait to hear what this is." 6:15 And then called me while the dryer repairman was at the apartment and was like, "Dirt needs a sex podcast." And I'm like walking to the other room muttering, I'm like, "Okay, um..." 6:23 [laughs] This guy's, like, pulling a sock out of my dryer and I'm like, "Why do we need a sex podcast?" 6:29 [laughs] Um, but as we all know, sex is really about desire, and desire is, touches so many other parts of our life, so [lips smack] I just... I'm, I'm kind of, like, saying it's like if Esther Perel had a book club. 6:45 Um, and for the, those people who decide to quote tweet the announcement and say there's no such thing as a literary podcast, shut the fuck up. Nobody cares. It's not for you. 6:55 Um- Well, you know- I don't know what to tell you... they, they should thank you. They should thank you, you know. People on Twitter need things to be mad about, and this is how- I haven't checked the-... 7:04 the world turns... the tweet in a while, but I think I'm also was at one point getting soft canceled for saying books are consumer products, but, um- Yeah. I, I, I kind of saw that... you buy them, so. You buy them. 7:13 I saw that, I saw that dimly, or, like, I, I didn't, like, dig too deep, but I saw some of that going on last week and I... 7:19 That was kind of my impression was that people were getting mad at you for, for saying that books, that physical books are a product people buy, and they seem to be getting precious about, like, the, the, you know, the writing itself, which isn't really what you were talking about. 7:34 No. And there was an inability to separate those things. It's about, like, policing the behavior of people that buy books because- Mm-hmm... they're photographing them or they're doing it... 7:41 They treat them like accessories because they wanna be seen as bookish, and it's like- Yeah... yeah, that's what people do with products. Speaking of bookish people. Yeah, let Adam in. Let's let Adam in. 7:50 I'm sure he has strong opinions on this. [laughs] He'll have, he'll have things to say about this. [upbeat music] Adam, before you came in I was talking to Francis about, um, a controversial tweet I did. Um, 8:09 somebody wrote a sub stack about, like, bookishness and the rise of kind of people who like to engage in the dark academia aesthetic and to buy kind of the accessories of reading and to be thought of as a reader, but maybe are not necessarily, like, the deepest- Reading... 8:24 most curious readers. And I was saying, like, the publishing industry and the humanities are not the same thing. The publishing industry sells a consumer product, which is the book. Right. 8:35 And so to police the way that people buy and use that product when they've already paid for it really just doesn't make any sense from a financial perspective, especially if you're an author. 8:45 And I said, like, "The day you take that big five advance, you enter an alliance with people that are gonna buy your book just to take a photo of it," and, like, that's a kind of a great outcome for you. Mm. 8:56 Uh, but people didn't like that, 'cause I think people like to conflate the humanities with the publishing industry, and I, 9:03 I don't know if I care enough to, like, die on the hill that it's, like, not the same, but apparently I am dying on that hill. [laughs] 'Cause people are fighting with you? Are you still using Twitter? 9:13 Is this what you're saying? [laughs] Yeah, I don't know. I guess I'm addicted to it, Adam. Yeah. I got mine. Don't worry. Other ones. You're on Blue Sky. I know that about you. Am I? I don't use it. Are you? 9:24 I thought you were. Mm. I dabbled. I went... [laughs] I dabbled for a minute. I f- I don't know. How many Blue Sky accounts lay fallow now? Yeah. 9:34 I, I mean, like- So what social media platform do you use the most then, Instagram? I guess Instagram, even though I, like... I feel like it, I'm like a year behind how dead it is. 9:44 Like, it feels like a real kind of ghost town-y, uh, to me, but- Yeah... um, which is good. Let's have they all die and we don't have to do that anymore, right? I mean, that is the... [laughs] That would be amazing. 9:55 Well, I think, like, I mean, not to throw you into our mediest question, but there's definitely a parallel conversation that could happen around d- are people buying music right? Mm. Like, obviously there's a spectrum. 10:09 Taylor Swift milking her fans by releasing, like, different covers- Variants... is extremely cynical, but for people beneath, underneath Taylor Swift and Charli XCX, like, 10:23 there's a world in which, I would argue, like, our world where, like, most musicians are making significant amounts of money not from streaming, but for people who buy the accessories of being a fan of that- Merch... 10:39 musician. Uh, merch, but and, and I would include in that, like, special edition vinyls- Yeah... 10:44 and things that, like, you could listen to, but you don't need to listen to 'cause you can listen to it essentially for free. 10:51 Um, and when I was describing to Francis, like, what Little Engines is, I was like, it's a literary project that kinda operates like a record label by somebody who knows the in and outs of that industry as well. 11:05 Um, but I'm curious whether you think there's a sort of similar, like, 11:10 track of, like, trying to disentangle the snobbery of, like, this is art from actually this is, like, the commerce part is kind of the only part working and we have to let people engage the way they want to engage. 11:23 God, I don't know. I mean, the, the, the record label thing is, like, I love that because that's just sort of the kinds of business model I first ever saw and was like, ooh, what's that doing? Mm. 11:33 And then I kinda stopped learning about business [laughs] after then. I was just like, I'll just apply- [laughs]... I'm gonna apply that to how I do everything. And so that's, I mean, I, that's intentional, you know? 11:45 M- more so the business side, than the business side for me 'cause there, just, like, when I was doing music, there was money to be made. 11:52 Uh, doing this, it does not seem to me that there's money to be made, uh, publishing a literary journal. 11:58 Um, but, like, the roster building part of it is what I'm most interested in, the sort of like a, a label that builds a roster of artists that they get behind and really-Kind of repeatedly represent ideally, like an ideal relationship is an artist and a label do several records, you know? 12:17 Um, and maybe their bands tour together more commonly because there's a common thread aesthetically that way or whatever. So roster building 12:25 at, at a magazine is, like, something I think of as a record label concept that I learned. Um, and then I went on to do it in my job. 12:33 I was booking bands, and I had a small roster of these artists that w- we did many, many tours, you know? So you, like, develop, um, like a lingo together over, like, lots of different things instead of just 12:49 I'm publishing your short story, and I'm not gonna talk to you again [laughs] you know, or whatever. Like submit again something, which is where also I will do that as well. But the most exciting thing to me is, like, 13:01 um, like this year we've done a bunch of readings for the first time, and people that, that... 13:05 So we'll have a couple local people read with what has mostly been me and Kyle Seibel and Mike Nagle sh- touring, and we'll bring on a few local people. 13:14 And now some of those people are submitting stuff, and they didn't really maybe even know the magazine before we came there and did our reading or whatever. 13:21 That's super cool to me because it feels, again, like it's a, a continuation of something that hopefully is not just one time submit, accept transaction, um, which is the thing I h- I like the least about the... 13:37 Aside from maybe that you don't [laughs] maybe that there's not seemingly money to be made, the submission culture, I really don't, I just... It, like, feels like the least cool thing in the world to me. 13:47 And, like- We say more about that. Like, what is- [laughs] I... Submission culture is, um, I've never heard that exact phrase, but I feel like I know exactly what you mean. 13:58 Um, but can you kind of describe, like, what are the attributes of people who go too hard into this culture? I don't even... I mean, it is the way you get published. 14:08 You submit your writing places, and so, like, it totally makes sense. Just like spray and pray on Submittable without really knowing. Maybe they're, or maybe you're more, even more direct and, like, intentional. Um, 14:22 but, like, from a... I'll just say from the... 14:24 I don't, I haven't, I haven't submitted a lot of writing, so I'm not gonna say, like, as a writer I get it, um, 'cause I just haven't published that much stuff of my own, especially lately. Yeah. 14:32 Like, when I was y- younger I did. But as a, as an editor, like, um, watching what happens to the magazine when I have an open call for submissions, that's when everyone is paying attention to the magazine. 14:45 So these are not readers, they're writers and they're submitters, you know? [laughs] And like, which is fine 'cause I, I, you know, you need it all. 14:54 But I feel like it's, it's been a learning, a depressing thing to learn for me that, like, the most action you get is asking people to submit work, not reading the work, which seems to me a real problem, and I don't know what the actual problem is. 15:09 Like, why are, why are short stories, poems, and essays not attracting readers, and instead they're attracting submitters, you know? Um, I don't know the answer. [laughs] Well, I think... 15:22 I mean, I think the answer is just that there's, like, everybody wants to be making things, and the value of the made thing is so low. So you need to produce so many to 15:32 y- y- you know, you need to sell a lot of them to, like, justify doing it or make a living doing it, and there's, um, so many places to read things or just to consume things generally, right? 15:44 So it's like, it's kind of like the problem of the creator economy, you know? Not necessarily just on, like, social media platforms- Yeah, for sure... 15:52 but just, like, the dem- the d- the democratization of, like, everybody making things, um, attention- But there's still prestige in getting published. 16:02 I think people, there's a lot of people who have seen, like, the value in being a published writer just- No, I, I- With no qualifications. Mm. Like, you know, did, was what you publish good? Did people read it? 16:18 Was it an enjoyable experience for you? And they're like, "No, I, this is a box that I need to check." Yeah. 16:23 Like, I have idolized these people that are published writers, and that, for me, that is, this is something I need to be able to say about myself without really considering, like, the quality of the process. 16:35 See, what I think, though, is what I'm... This is a hypothesis. We love a hypothesis on this podcast, Adam. [laughs] I'm not talking about, like... I'm talking about underground literary magazines, small ass magazines. 16:47 You know, like Little Engines. They're- Somebody should start a magazine called Small Ass Magazine. [laughs] There's so many of these. There are so many of these, and, like, um, my hypothesis is the magazines are, 17:01 with few exceptions, not the draw, in that it's these cool authors with very tiny audiences are bringing their readers to it, and I don't think anyone's talking about that really. 17:12 They're, they're, they're understanding it on, like, a social media level of, like, well, they'll, they'll repost this, and they're... But, like, actual people that are reading this person's short story or read... 17:25 Are, are going to come to your magazine. And, and I don't know how to, like, focus more on that, but that's what I wanna do is, like, the readers. 17:33 Like a couple people have said these, like, jarring things to me this year where I'm like, "Jesus, that's so smart." Um, but, like, a, 17:43 a guy that runs a publishing company was just like, "The reader is the least, um, taken care of person in the equation currently in the, in what we're all doing." And I was like, "Oh, damn, that's really legit." 17:56 The reader is one of the last things we're talking about or dealing with [laughs] so often. 18:01 Um, and then there's this, um, publisher, uh, Relegation Books, who just have this thing coming out very soon called The Relegation Reader. 18:09 Maybe it's out this week, but it's like-An anthology that, um, this guy Will Mountain Cox edited. Um, and he's a cool writer. 18:16 He's an American living in Paris, and he wrote a cool book about Paris that I love called Round About. So it's kinda how I found his world, and he's got dope writers in this thing. 18:26 But he himself as the editor who compiled it speaks at the end of each piece in this, like, really amazing way. But what he's always talking about is, is readers and reading. Um, and I f- it's, like, novel. 18:40 I'm just like, "This is so weird." Th- th- th- [laughs] like, to talk about this, it seems so novel. But it is what, to me, is the path forward. Um, and it is not... 18:50 I don't think it leads to any better results in terms of audience size maybe or money or any of that shit. But I do think it leads [laughs] to a much cooler experience o- of a scene and a culture, you know? 19:02 To, like- Well, wait. So the, the thing, the thing I was trying to get on, um, a few minutes ago, what, what I was responding to was, like, my impression was you were saying that there are... 19:12 Like, all these people will come and give attention when submissions are open, and there's, there's all these submitters. But these submitters aren't necessarily reading- Mm... 19:21 Little Engines or, or any other underground magazine, right? They're just, like, th- they're these, like... They're just submitters. They're not readers. A- across it, like, across the ecosystem. 19:30 They're just [laughs] roving bands of submitters who aren't engaging as, not even as consumers but as, like, audience members. I would say that's not... I don't wanna sound that harsh at all. 19:42 Definitely, definitely many of those people are, are reading, but I don't think as many as you would want. Mm-hmm. Or reading, reading deeply and more, um... I'm a fucking new reader. 19:57 It's like I don't n- I don't have the answers or, or, like, feel like I have some... I'm just trying to, like, step out of the things that s- that look and feel bad- [laughs]... 20:06 and that everyone is kind of annoyed with and just be like, "All right. Well, what's, what's left?" 20:11 And, like, um, m- just keep to me, I just keep thinking about, like, as I become a more intense reader and try to become a better reader and stuff, like, how do we, how do we find... 20:26 How do we just talk more about the reading than the publishing? If you look at, like, what's going on with the art market, um, Fran Lebowitz, I saw her make a really good point one time, rare, um [laughs]- [laughs]... 20:37 where she was like, "We stopped calling it the art world and started calling it the art market." And it's like, well, yeah, but you don't see painters, like, m- mad 20:49 that, like, people buy their paintings, or if they are, like- I've al- I don't know, I don't know that world that well, but I always look at it and I'm like, "How do they... They're all so cool with this arrangement." 20:58 [laughs] Yeah. Like, it doesn't seem like there's this, like, friction. But, but who are these authors you're speaking of who don't like self-promotion? 21:06 [laughs] Like, I feel like that is all I see authors doing, and I know they have to. You have to just keep doing that. But, like, do you mean, like, successful people that have a... 21:16 that don't need that to actually sell something are, like, less interested now in accepting that they're a part of a market because they've already kind of conquered that market? 21:26 Or do you mean, like, up and coming writers? Who are, who you mean? I think more up and coming. I think there's people who just have a lot of resentment and never get that much success because... 21:39 or, like, and they feel it's because they weren't willing to sell out and market themselves. Mm. 21:43 I also think, like, you see people doing it, but unless you're, like, friends with them, you don't really know how they feel about having to do it. For sure. Um, but if you talk to them privately, there's a lot of doubt. 21:53 And I also agree with your friend that said the readers are really underserved right now. But I think, like, more publishing companies should treat it like a record label and like they're nurturing talent. 22:04 Like, we really lost that, and I have to interact with publishing houses on a limited basis when I coordinate getting books or getting excerpts- Yeah... of books. 22:16 And, like, literally this morning I was in a back and forth because, like, trying to get an excerpt of a book that I'm paying for and asked them, like, "Can you send it to me in a Word doc and not a PDF?" 22:33 Like, I can't take the text out of this PDF and drop it- Right... in my site. And typically, like, if they're used to doing this they'll, they will package it for you, and it was like pulling teeth. 22:45 I actually texted my friend that works at the same publishing house, and I was like, "Can I call you?" And I was like, "Are you guys good? Like, are you guys okay?" 22:52 Because I'm, like, trying to run a company, and there's a mid-level employee at your company that doesn't wanna convert a PDF for me, so- That can't send it to me in a Word document? 23:01 [laughs] I'm just like, I'm just trying to figure out, like, do you guys have lead in your water? Like, what's going on? 23:05 [laughs] And I feel bad, but it's also, like, if, if I didn't have the experience of running a business, I would chalk it up to maybe there's something that I don't understand. But it's, like, really quite simple. 23:20 Um, and the publishing industry is an incredibly conservative industry in the way that it functions. But because it's, like, a politically liberal and artistic industry, that conservatism gets overlooked. But being... 23:37 Like, conservatism is more than just, like, a political ideology. It's, like, an unwillingness to do things differently. 23:42 Um, and I think that's why, like, you and I have connected, Adam, because you also have that knowledge of business. Like, I know you were joking, like, you got this education in a specific period of time in the, 23:57 the music industry, and then it kinda stopped, but I think that gives you a huge leg up over people who never had that education. For sure. 24:05 Um, and we had Andy Hunter on the podcast, who's the CEO of Bookshop, and w- Yeah, I listened to it actually. Oh, yeah. And he was, like, reading Barbarians at the Gate, and I'm like, "Yeah, you probably... 24:14 Like, you could probably learn more about... a long-ass book about a hostile takeover in the '80s [laughs] 24:21 right now, take something from that and how to like run something, um, than trying to look around at like the dysfunction right now. I, yeah. I don't know. I think you know the world way more... 24:35 I mean, I'm not in New York and I don't really know publishing or people in publishing, especially at the big places. I knew a couple agents when I worked at agencies, um, and I've poked around a little bit. 24:45 But like it does seem like the, the most consistent of any like world of art making that is a market [laughs] 24:57 where there's m- the disfa- dis- the dissatisfaction and the, the sort of complaining about how it doesn't work seems like universal- Mm-hmm... from all angles. And it's just like, damn, what a bummer. What a... 25:08 Like my reaction having like the, spent the past few years trying to figure out like, okay, what do I wanna do with this magazine? 25:16 And I'm a writer myself, what do I wanna do with my own writing, is like, um, while I might know business and have like done business with artists before and like could do it, I, I am like really re- like I'm resistant to doing it 'cause it just [laughs] it's like everyone seems so bummed out, you know? 25:34 Mm-hmm. And like I myself have become bummed out at certain paths that I'm like, ah, do I, like what am I, what is this for? Um, but I, you're, y- you know, what you're doing I think is... 25:46 When I first met you I like, I was like, "God, I love how often you just talk about your business." [laughs] And like you're, you're very much like, "This is a goddamn business. 25:54 Like I'm trying to succeed in business," which I f- totally admire. Um, and I, I don't have that currently with this stuff for, like I don't have that drive to like conquer it. Um, I do however 26:09 see the dissatisfaction and my brain starts going like, "Oh, well what could we do, what could we do?" You know? Mm-hmm. Like, how can we... And so I'm like, 26:17 it's sucking me in to be like, "Well why don't you try to do some shit?" You know? And like see if you could- 'Cause you have taste. Yeah. We're on taste land. Mm-hmm. I was like, I'm gonna be on taste land. 26:27 Have I developed taste? How long will it take somebody to say the word taste? Yeah. This might be a record for us. Put that, put a, put that on Polymarket. 26:36 Well, Francis has some questions about what you're reading right now, speaking of taste. [laughs] Cool. I did, I did, I did have one question [laughs] about what are you reading right now. Is that the question? 26:46 That's the que- I did, I did write that in the notes. I wanna know what you're reading right now. [laughs] Or what you have- Yeah... read recently that resonated with you. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um- Anything this year... 26:55 this morning I was reading, um, Ed Park's book, this book. Do you guys know this? Mm. Mm. I, news to me. It's an office book. Um, what year is this? I think it's 20- 2003 maybe. An, an office book? Yeah. 2008, sorry. 27:12 It's like a, it's about offices. Mm. And like it's basically like if, like, um, Severance but funny and not like psychotic. Or you know, it's like it's, it's this weird office book. Mm. It's really cool. 27:23 I don't know him, um, but this book, I, like I love the artwork and I like, um, he said something smart on Substack the other day, and I was like, "I'm gonna buy that book." So I've been reading that. That's cool. 27:34 Um- Does it feel really pre-COVID? It does. I've been, so a couple current things I read, like c- like contemporary novels that were like in the early part of the century 27:45 feel so weirdly dated, and like an office book seems- Mm... really weirdly dated, you know? Mm-hmm. And like uh, it's, I don't know 27:52 if those kinda things like later get a swing up when it's like you've passed that point of exhaustion about hearing about office culture and how fucked up and funny it is in, in our current state or whatever. 28:02 But his writing's super good. The form of it is really kinda unique and interesting, so it's like I'm ripping through it. 28:09 Um- I've been, uh, as a, as a corollary to that I've been reading, and y- I guess you could call it an anti-office book, um, in Generation X by Douglas Coupland. Oh, weird. Yeah. 28:19 I've, I'd never read it before, but I was reading something else and a friend recommended it to me. Um, and that's- I just rebought it. You just rebought it? Um, yeah, I saw it. I think it's sitting here. 28:30 It's, I mean, well it's funny- I had it when I was younger and I saw it- Yeah... in a used bookstore and I was like, "I'm gonna read that again," so I bought it but I haven't hit it again. It's an easy read. 28:37 It's like so, I mean, it's like 180 pages, and like it's like a big square book. But the- Yeah, square book... the f- but like the, the actual like writing is only on like a third of the page. 28:47 But anyways, um, i- it's interesting for like, you know, the, the Gen X like anti-capitalist, um, kind of sentiment in there. Like there's some bits that feel so this is relatable, this is now. 28:59 I saw some tweet that was like, you know, um, expressing this exact sentiment the other day or something like that. But- Yeah... 29:05 there's other bits too that, that do feel ki- I guess I don't know if quaint in this way, in what we're talking about, about like, oh, like writing is a business, this kinda thing. Like there's this, there's this like, 29:18 you know, checking out of all that, of, of, of society, of commerce sentiment that feels like more dated where it's like, well, that's less of an option right now. Mm. Interesting. 29:32 Yeah, I don't know what period we're in right now. And you know, like I, like you know there's that thing where like it takes 25 years before you, the century knows what it's about or whatever. Mm-hmm. 29:42 And I actually, but so I, th- aside from like this Ed Park thing, I've been reading like a bunch of modernist stuff, stuff I didn't read when I was young and I should have. So like- Mm... I read Mrs. Dalloway. Mm. 29:53 Ulysses. I just finished Light in August, which was sick. A bunch of Hemingway stuff I never read, like four or five Hemingway books. 30:00 And I'm reading like all this like interwar stuff, and like they're trying to figure out what the fuck is going on now, like what's gonna happen, what are we about now or whatever. 30:10 And I'm like, I don't know if our books currently know what's happening, you know? Mm. 30:14 Um, but I do think stuff that's like pre-COVID, pre-Trump, early, early 2000s is like in a weird period where it's like kinda hard to like-Not feel like, "Oh, God, this is, I know this too well," or something, you know? 30:29 Yeah. I also think, like, a lot of authors are too insulated to be keen observers of the world, um, because they surround themselves with other writers. [scoffs] Um- Mm... and that makes it... 30:43 I think it gives you a very limited viewpoint of the zeitgeist. 30:47 And I feel the same way about, like, technologists who never leave their bubble in San Francisco, have no idea how normal people use technology or the internet or what they're looking for from it. 30:57 Um, but that's why I like Kyle's writing so much, um, because- Kyle Seibel? Kyle Seibel, yeah, because he has... He's a writer, but he has not always lived surrounded by writers. 31:12 Um, and he's able to capture something really interesting about America because of that. He's also never written a character that is a writer, and I think that's super intentional. 31:24 He's just like, "I'm not writing about writers," [laughs] which I love. He seems outside of the current cultural moment to me in a way that I love. I, like, I don't, 31:35 don't feel like you can align Kyle and his writing with stuff, which I think is super cool. He just is, is. His stories just are. And, um, I like that. He's totally his own- For the audience, his-... own universe. Yeah. 31:48 His most recent collection's called Hey, You Assholes from Clash Books. And I mean, if a big, bright cover that says "Hey, you assholes" doesn't get your attention, I don't know. Purple. Purple-ass cover [laughs] Well... 32:00 Yeah. Those are very good stories. Um, they are great stories, and they really stay with you. I... 32:07 Sometimes I'll finish a short, short story collection, even by somebody I love, by like Lorrie Moore, and I'm like, "Wow, I couldn't tell you a single thing that happened in this. I don't know." Mm. 32:17 "I couldn't tell you a single person's name," and I really didn't feel that way with his. That's me with tons of books. I, like- Yeah... 32:22 yeah, I don't have good recall, and it's, like, combination of reasons, some of them really obvious, like if you're, like, a super stoner, you're not gonna recall stuff, [laughs] you know what I mean? 32:32 It's like- Uh-huh... I've been, been, I haven't been the best steward of my memory. But Kyle's book, and this is a lot of books, like, in my... 32:39 'Cause I'm trying again to, like, figure out how to read books better or whatever. I was like, "I wanna remember those stories." So I read them once, then I saw him do a bunch of them when we were touring. Mm-hmm. 32:48 And I was like, "Man, I really wanna remember these," so I read it again, and now I remember them. It's like, so like the reread in order to remember feels to me like the highest compliment of a book. 32:57 It's like if you're an idiot- Yeah... like me that doesn't remember a book b- as soon as you finish it, [laughs] and it's so... 33:02 But it, th- whatever does stick with you, whatever the fucking residue is that makes you w- then read it again, like, that has to be the signal of a good book, to, like, want to remember it even though you're incapable of remembering books. 33:13 [laughs] I love that word- Yeah... residue because, like, residue actually came up in our last podcast with Nick Susie where he was talking about, um- Cheeto dust... Cheeto dust on the internet. Oh, yeah. 33:23 Posts are the Cheeto dust of, of your identity. [laughs] Mm. Nice. Um- That's a good... That's a real high-low there. Mm-hmm. 33:32 So obviously we also have to ask you about the best shows that you saw this year, and you saw Geese open for Vampire Weekend this summer. That was a great show. Yeah. Yeah. What do you think about- I listened to your-... 33:44 Geese blowing up?... your Voith memo about it. Oh, yeah. Voith memo. [laughs] I'm fucking so- That's really funny... psyched about that, about that band blowing up. Like, I don't... Like, it's, it is, like, it's, I... 33:56 You know, when it started happening, I was like, "Is this actually gonna be, like, universally loved now?" Which is, like, I'm always looking for that moment when you're just like, "Holy shit, everybody's in." 34:05 Like, let- Mm. And it's, and it's really good stuff, you know? It's like, it's left field stuff. It's the most unlikely... 34:11 Like, a, a weird New York rock and roll band that, like, in their music references some of the most uncool music and genres- In 2025... all the ti- yeah. 34:24 Um, the least likely thing, which is, you know, apparently what we were all actually looking for. But I fucking love them. 34:31 The show I saw, it was pouring down rain the whole time, and I was like, "I'm just gonna stand here and get wet. This is so great." Um, and I'm actually gonna go see them next week. 34:39 They're not, um, playing Nashville, which I s- I don't know why they're not playing here- Mm... but I'm gonna go see them in Atlanta next week. Nice. Um, 'cause I'm obsessed. 34:47 But I, yeah, that's- Somebody should write a, like, piece about all the old YouTube clips of bands performing in the rain and why they're so much more popular than, uh, regular clips. 34:56 Are you thinking of that one Goo Goo Dolls clip? Goo Goo. Oh, yeah. And then there's another big one. Um, Bush performing Glycerine in the rain. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I don't think that's the same year. 35:09 The, the Green Day at the, the, the Green Day at, what, one, um, Woodstock in the rain and the, with the mud and shit. Yeah. 35:15 I mean, that year at Woodstock wa- there's a lot of clips from that that was right at that time. Yeah, a lot of rain. Were you able to get those tickets at face value or did you have to get them resale? 35:24 Because I didn't have the thought to try to get tickets to see them in Brooklyn until after they had already been sold, and now they're like $270 cheapest. Yeah. There were tickets in Minneapolis, uh, for the show. 35:35 I was maybe gonna drive up to Minneapolis to go with a friend, and, um, he was, like, looking on the secondary. There was a, there was a ticket... They played a very small room. 35:44 I think there was a ticket for $4,000 [laughs] to go- That's crazy... to this like 300-cap club. But, um, I did not pay for my ticket. I am still somehow- Mazel... 35:52 coasting on can I be on the guest list, and the answer- Let's go... is yes. [laughs] So, you know, so I'm gonna ride it as long as I can. Uh-huh. Well, Adam, like, 36:02 from, like, you talking about the Geese, like, is this gonna bec- are they gonna become universally beloved, like, is this storyline actually happening for this band? 36:09 Like, what bands and musicians that you worked with did you see kind of, like, unexpectedly rise that way, and, like, what did you learn from kind of having a front row seat to that? Uh, yeah. 36:22 There was, like, a period where I, like... a couple happened in a row for me, like, on the booking side-Um, like the sa- the same year, I think, Bon Iver and Vampire Weekend, um, 36:35 started working then before the records came out, and so felt something coming. But then when we actually... when the record came out and the tours were happening, it was just like, "Oh, something's really happening." 36:46 So those two- Mm... for sure. This artist, The Tallest Man on Earth, from Sweden was just like... had played not- he had just done nothing here. He, he was, he wa- he was sort of unknown in Sweden and America. 36:58 Um, but he started having this moment that was, you know, it, it didn't go to that same level as those other two, but it was just the room, inside the rooms was fucking crazy. 37:07 Like, it was, like, electric, and he was this, you know, tiny Swedish dude with an acoustic guitar playing these folk songs. But it was like, it felt, like, rabid in the rooms- Huh... on that, on that first record. 37:19 That was a really good one. Mumford & Sons was a total stunning shocker. Had no idea it was going on because they had never resonated over here, and they... 37:29 When we, we booked a tour before the radio thing kicked in for them. They were the first band I worked- Mm... with that got on the radi- radio properly. Like, they were on- Mm... every fucking radio station. 37:38 You know, not just the, you know, indie stations and the s- college stations. They were on all the radio [chuckles] stations all of a sudden. So that was one where, you know, no one could get to the show. 37:48 You could not get a ticket to the shows on their early tours. That really stayed with them for a long time. It just kept going. But, um, that was, like, all in, like, a not su- super far apart period. 38:00 Um, so I felt like I was, like, holding onto these comet tails and kind of learning. And I think what I learned is that, like, the fan... 38:10 [chuckles] This is gonna go back to the reader thing, but, like, the fan is the fucking thing. 38:15 So, like, when you start having an audience and you begin to, like, develop, especially for bands who are like, you're looking for, like, 38:24 not one record cycle but a deca- you know, decades of records, um, how do you foster that fan base so they are not fickle, and that they're gonna keep coming and building with you? 38:34 And those are some bands that I think have done really well with that, just, like, taking care of the fan and, like, playing the right place and, and doing the right show itself and, um, putting out the right records even when it sometimes would feel like a total, like, wrong turn, but, like, following, following, um, the same drive that got you the fans in the first place, you know? 38:57 Instead of trying to keep them around by spoon-feeding them what, you know, whatever. 39:01 Like, these, these were, like, things that I would watch artists doing and fans responding to and then having to try to, like, synthesize that into the live thing was, um... Even now, like, I go to... 39:14 If I do go to a show, like, I'm just... I'm watching, like, the show and s- the band and then the show, and, like, part of it is the audience and, like, just what are the fans doing? What are they thinking? 39:23 What are they... Like, like, that part of it was, um, what I got obsessed with, I guess. Mm. Um- I need to say something very crass, which is, [chuckles] do you think there's enough ways to monetize being early to 39:42 a band like that or an author? 39:44 Because, like, to go back to the art industry, like, if you were early, like, if you were in on somebody early enough to buy their work, because of the, um, like, non-fungibility of a painting, like, if they blow up, like, your painting will increase in value. 40:05 And it's interesting the asymmetry between different creative industries. Like, I feel like technologists have come up with a bunch of really dumb ways to try to, like, fix this. 40:14 But it does seem like a real problem for the fan and for somebody who's, like, a booker or publishes authors that, like, there's not really a reward for being early. Um, you know, if Kyle goes on... 40:27 Like, if his next book's a bestseller, obviously it reflects well on your taste from a qualitative perspective, 40:36 but it's not like there's then gonna be, like, an increased market for the short stories he published with you. Um- For sure... 40:44 like, did you benefit from being early to Mumford & Sons or Vampire Weekend, or did you just get the fee that you got at the time and then you kinda learned from it? 40:55 Booking is weird because there's no equity in anything. Like, you don't get- Yeah... like, record, record labels will at least have a lease on your record, you know, if not own it. There's no equity. 41:07 You don't own anything. The show's over, you're paid a percentage, and it's o- there's no more money to be made ever from that concert. 41:14 Whereas, like, a song just is generative all, million ways all the time, constantly kicking off money different places. The show is, like, one time, one fee, and it's over. So the, the whole, um, 41:27 thing you're talking about doesn't exist for agents. It's just about, like, building a long-term relationship with them and not getting fired. I mean, agents are fucking cra- you don't have a contract with these artists. 41:38 Like, they can leave you any second. So, like- Mm... you are completely [chuckles] unprotected in that way, and vice versa, you can leave. So, like, it's just a very weird relationship that, like, 41:50 you give it so much, and there's so much fucking money involved in concerts. Like, s- if you start selling tickets, like, it's... Money is crazy. So, like, and there's no... 42:02 There's just, there's just this handshake agreement with agents and, and artists, and it's always been that way. It's very weird. Um, so it's just about maintaining... 42:12 I- if you're early, you hope that the artist r- remembers that and, like, wants to stay with you 'cause you were there forever. But, like, that shit only goes so far, and, like, loyalty in the music business is a real... 42:24 It's just not, it's, it's not having a good season. Like, it's just people are less loyal than they used to be in that world. 42:30 There used to be a little more of a code of honor [chuckles] with stuff that's, like, kinda gone. So- People are less loyal-... really exposed... and honorable in everything. 42:37 [chuckles]Is it because- Yeah, I think that's true... is that because of, like, fighting over less money, and so there's, like, less incentive to be loyal and more incentive to be greedy? There is 42:49 a million answers to that. [laughs] It's all the bad ones, you know. 42:52 But yeah, definitely greed and, and I don't know, when you said there's less to go around, like, the, the thing in music, l- live music, and who knows when this will stop, but it is ballooned. 43:01 Like, it's had, like, this crazy expansion, and then it... after COVID, it went even harder, big expansion. So there's only more money around- Hmm... uh, which is, to me, 43:14 probably part of the [laughs] you know, what makes it so complicated. But yeah, you don't get any, you don't get a painting that you can then flip for $2 million 20 years later, whatever. 43:25 You know, it just is not, it's not like that. 43:29 Well, this concept of equity, like, I've been percolating on an essay, um, you know, tying together a few different threads that I've seen out there about, like, how we're all founders now. Mm-hmm. 43:40 Maybe Francis and I can collab [laughs] on this, 'cause this is a thread that runs through a lot of- Absolutely... the people he interviews for his newsletter and his other podcast, Creator Spotlight. Yeah. 43:48 Like, this idea, like, to me, it's, like, directly tied to inflation, because, like, I will have frustration with somebody who I interact with who's in a salaried job, and I just know, like, they don't feel like they're being paid enough to do their job. 44:06 But that they are being paid, it's just that, like, their salary doesn't feel like enough because everything else is so expensive. 44:14 And so a lot of people will stay in that position and just not do their job as well, but then the people who are most ambitious just leave and try to start their own thing. 44:24 Um, and it creates, like, this surplus of, like, freelancing, contracting, consulting, founderhood, um, which is, like, a huge part- It's gotta be at a saturation point, right? Like, there's just too many founders now. 44:38 You would think- [laughs]... but AI is gonna do more of it. And I think if we actually had any sort of form of, like, UBI, like Ireland actually just made permanent- Mm... 44:48 this UBI for artists, which I think is, like, incredible. It's, like, 1,500 a month, right? Yeah. Yeah. Which is, like, obviously, like, I mean, I, I could have lived on, um, and have lived on maybe, like, 45:03 2 to $3,000 a month, I would say, like, when I was freelancing. Like, that's enough to cover rent for sure, which for most artists is gonna be their ba- biggest expense. I mean, I think that's incredible. 45:17 Um, but it, it's not just, like, even artists now. Like, it's, it's gonna be, have to be everyone. 45:24 Um, but we're in the weird, we're in this weird period, like, speaking of, like, trying to metabolize this over the next 25 years, where it's like it's gonna seem crazy that so many people were going out on their own and trying to do things with no safety net. 45:37 I- Yeah... well, if you'll, if you'll, um, forgive me an indulgence of reading- [laughs]... two paragraphs of something. This is Daisy's least favorite thing that I do. But this is- [laughs]... 45:46 what, this came out about a year ago, um, Max Read, um, Re- Read Max newsletter. Uh, this issue is called The TikTok Electorate, and I think about it very often. So, um, this is two paragraphs from later on in it. 45:59 Let's hear it. Um, "Americans tend to love small business owners as a concept, but as a class they're among the traditional stronghold for fascist and reactionary politics. 46:08 Fearful of change from below, getting canceled by your followers, jealous of their relative social position, follower count, resentful of the larger and wealthier companies and people they see as threatening their livelihoods, real celebrities, eager to vote for a strong leader whose dictatorial authority they can identify with, fellow influencer Donald J. 46:26 Trump. The p- uh, the petite bourgeois are uniquely exposed to market forces in a way that is not crazy to analogize to an influencer's exposure to a given platform. 46:36 It seems, seems worth noting, too, in the age of trad influencer mania, that Wilhelm Reich famously located the core of petuit- petite bourgeois reaction in the structure of the patriarchal family, which both mirrors and is coterminous with the small business itself. 46:53 Obviously, not everyone who uses TikTok is making money from it or is exploiting the labor of their family, and not every influencer is thinking about their interests quite so nakedly. 47:03 But social media overall tends to encourage users to understand themselves as small business owners- Mm... where the business is you or your brand navigating the market of a platform. 47:14 This has always been the case implicitly, but the rise of TikTok and YouTube, which disconnect users from limiting s- from the limiting social graph of IRL, IRL friends and families, and which pay users directly for developing a successful small business, has made the connection much more explicit. 47:31 I wonder how much using and mediating the world with a set of platforms that inoculate you as a member of the petite bourgeois affects how you conceive of your political and material interests." 47:42 That was not two paragraphs, dog. That was, like, five. It's two paragraphs, they're just really long. No, it's three paragraphs, buddy. But really, I, I could've, maybe I could've just read the second one. 47:48 But I, but I think- Yeah... 47:49 I do think that the, the thesis here of, like, the, the s- like social media turning people into small business owners, and then, like, that, that's more, making people more self-interested is, is really strong. 48:00 Well, I'm like, I feel like I'm arguing the opposite, which is that, like, more writers should think of themselves as small business owners. 48:06 But I actually think if that happened, they would become more self-interested as organizers towards better forms of social democracy that actually take, like, 48:19 some level of capitalism in the market, like, into account, rather than just, like, throwing away so much social capital on, like, pretending to be a communist or an anarchist online and then, like, turning on subscriptions on your Substack and being like, "Why does nobody pay for this?" 48:34 [laughs] I go, I go, "I don't know." Like [laughs] Sorry, Adam, we do this a lot. I love it. I mean, there's no... I mean, the premise that social media has done something dramatic is unquestionable, right? Yeah. 48:48 Like, something bad has gone on [laughs] here. [laughs] You know, it's like... 48:52 But Daisy, to your point, like, I am so curious, when you, uh, when you're talking about writers trying to be small businesses, you're not talking about self-publishing necessarily, right? 49:03 You're, you're more talking about marketing yourself in a way that is maybe trying to find ways to... Uh, well, tell me what you mean more. Well, actually- 'Cause you're... I don't think you do. 49:14 Or maybe you do mean self-publishing. I th- I think you should think of yourself and approach it as if you're self-publishing even if you're publishing with a big five- Mm-hmm... uh, publisher. 49:24 Because if you are not on their priority list for that season, um, but you are expecting them to take care of everything, like, you're gonna be screwed. I'm seeing it firsthand. 49:37 Like, I know these writers think that their publicist and the marketing team inside this publishing house is working on their behalf, but I am, like, trying to boost these writers and this work, and, like, the publisher is actively making it harder for me and working against me, and it's not because they have something against me- [laughs] That is funny... 49:54 or dirt. It's like, um, I think a lot of these writers, if they knew I was chasing their publicist for a galley, would be horrified. 50:04 Um, but inside these publishers, they do not have, like, a unified list of who should receive a galley and how, who should be marketed to. 50:13 Like, those lists are kept by individuals, or maybe they're shared across an imprint. 50:19 So there's no unified, like, data inside Penguin or whatever that's like, "Here's a list of all the people that write about books," like tags for, like, audience size, what they're interested in, what they've covered in the past. 50:33 Like, that's just basic business. And so if you are... 50:38 You're selling something and you're competing against people running million-dollar businesses off of Shopify and actually investing in, um, go-to-market data, like really in-depth data about their audience, and, like, you're flying blind because you're having turf wars between, like, two people that sit three desks apart, like, that's crazy from m- in my opinion, um, 51:03 and really inefficient. I, I, the, the comment... 51:05 There's, like a, like, uh, these common things that I sort of feel like I've picked up and heard a lot when people are talking about their books experience or their pu- And it's like one of the fo- 51:15 really obvious things that people say is like, "Oh, yeah, your publisher's not gonna do anything." [laughs] Like, "They're not gonna [laughs] do, you know, they're not gonna do your tour anymore, you know. 51:22 You have to find your own, you know, your..." And like, oh, so 51:25 if you get a book deal, most people getting the book deal are still, you know, having to do their own marketing and their own ideas for events and whatever, and that seems like... 51:37 I'm just, like, so confused as to, like, w- why are publishers not doing things? [laughs] It, like, seems like such a dumb question. Because they gave you a loan that you have to pay back no matter what. 51:46 Yeah, no, I get it. And they're expecting you to pay it [laughs] back. And so it's like calling it an advance is like, well, we gentrified the concept of a zero interest loan, brother. 51:54 Like [laughs] But this is the same as music. Subprime publishing credits. Like, music would give you, you get a big advance for the major label, but they would do things. Yeah. They would do some things. Yeah. 52:00 Like, they would hire the publicist or whatever, you know. Like, I don't know. But, um, fuck, I was gonna say this. Like the [laughs] there's a publicist on Substack who posted some fucking note that said, 52:14 "Being a literary publicist means sending out hundreds of emails and then waiting for no one to get back to you." 52:22 And I'm just like, if that's what you th- you, a literary publicist, and sh- this person is a real publicist, [laughs] like, if that is what you think your job is, we are fucking screwed. 52:33 Like, that is so dumb to, that you think your job is sending emails and, and, and that you are 52:39 saying this out loud, like, as though you're proud of the fact that you are getting no responses to the mass emails you're sending out. 52:48 Like, you're putting that on the internet as, like, what you understand your job to be. 52:52 I'm like, oh, that, that sounds exactly like the inefficiencies in, in [laughs] every other thing where, like, the, the music had this similar thing where it's like the publicity game, the things that are supposed to find the listeners or the readers, they're just not fucking working, and yet people are entrenched in that this is what their job is, you know? 53:14 Yeah. I mean, I would be so ashamed if I put that on the internet about my job. Like, if I were a booking agent and I was like, "Well, it's time to submit 40 bands to Coachella and get no offers"- [laughs]... 53:25 I would be, I would be fired by all of my clients instantaneously. [laughs] You know? Absolutely. And, uh, and, and I should be. I should be, you know? Yeah. I, that's so, I mean, that's a great parallel. 53:34 Like, I feel like that's where some of these, like, these parallels are coming in between the two businesses. 53:39 And, like, um, I think everyone likes to believe there's a shark somewhere working on their behalf, but nobody wants to be a shark. And it's like you need to be the shark. Mm-hmm. 53:49 There is no shark inside this publishing house to put the money where it has to be. It's so unfair though, because, like, writers aren't supposed to be good at that shit necessarily, you know? 53:58 Like, and every- It's not just writers. Like every- m- musicians are not supposed to be good, like, fucking social justice warriors. Yeah. They're musicians. Yeah. They're supposed to be good at music. 54:09 Or, like, they're not supposed to be good content makers o- of short video. Like, th- that's... They make short songs. That's what their fucking thing is. They, [laughs] they make short songs. 54:19 Don't make them do this other stuff. But- Yeah... so it's, I think it's across everything. But what you're lobbying for 54:25 and that you think people need to do, I agree with you, but it sucks for those people that do not have that skill set. Well, I think why people- Yeah... 54:30 are, like, mad when I say this stuff is they think that I'm arguing for it rather than observing. Like, I'm not- Totally. No, I, I get it. Yeah... arguing that you should think about a book as a handbag. 54:41 You're saying, "We're in the ocean. Learn to swim." Mm. Exactly. Mm-hmm. And, like, I understand that, like-From a certain perspective, that means I'm normalizing it, but, like, I think 54:55 this is where we are, and we've been here for a while. And, um, yeah, like, writers aren't supposed to be good at it, but, like, the writers you see succeeding now are the best at it whether they're good writers or not. 55:08 Mm-hmm. So if you're a good writer and you could get good at marketing yourself- Or okay at it [laughs]... you would actually be raising the caliber of what else is out there. Precisely. 55:16 Because I cannot see another clouded book get over-hyped and get excited about it, and then read it and feel like I wasted two hours of my [laughs] precious life. And I don't even fault people for that. Like, you got me. 55:30 Good job. You already have my money. Um, but yeah, that's like, it's not sending an email, for sure. 55:38 [laughs] That's like me being, like, my job is sending my newsletter, and my job is so much more than sending the newsletter. Right. 55:46 I mean, you could argue that the least interesting thing about your job is sitting, hitting the send button. [laughs] I mean, that is the fi- that's the end of it. That's like- Yeah... 55:54 okay, I've done all my work, you know? Right. And to your earlier point, like, I meant to say, like, people have asked me, like, would you run Dirt as a solo operator? 56:02 Like, if it just became too hard to have a company with all of these, you know, managing freelancers and contributors and all these different arms. 56:11 Like, you know, would it be cheaper and more lucrative if it was just, like, Daisy's newsletter? Um, and there's people who do that, like, really well, and I'm, I'm not interested in that. 56:20 It's not exciting to me 'cause I'm like you. I like finding and cultivating talent. I like taking people up with me. I'm very loyal to them. Um, if they're not loyal to me, none of my business. 56:31 But, like, that to me is how great eras in creativity and artwork come about. 56:38 Not through a scene where people just want s- people just want to check the buck- box of being published, but through, like, the deeper connections of, like, engaging with people's work, cultivating their work, making it better, shaping it. 56:51 And you can do that and, like, be a shark at the same time because, like, if you've put in that work, then you are going to, like... My husband calls me an apex predator. 57:01 Like, when you've put in that work with that person to cultivate them, you have a stake in their success, and you want them to succeed, and you're gonna go out and be aggressive about it. 57:11 That's how I feel about writers that I have nurtured, um, and have put their trust in me. So 57:19 i- when I encounter people that just don't feel that way, and I know it's 'cause they're underpaid or whatever, I'm kind of like, "Oh, well, too bad." [laughs] You know? Yeah. I mean, uh, there is, uh... 57:32 I spent a lot of time at the end of my music career being mad about watching how the music business is. Mm-hmm. You know? And would be like, "Ah, f- this is, this suck, this sucks. This is going the wrong direction." 57:44 [laughs] And then, like, at, at some point you're like, well, these people, they have to do this 'cause this is their job, and, like, this is the industry they're in, so they have to behave in this industry the way the industry behaves, you know? 57:55 And, like, not everyone, um, uh, can just quit and get out of it, you know? Or whatever. Um, but it sounds like what you're s- your frustration, like, you're like I cannot [laughs] 58:08 see another clouded book and th- It's like that is gonna happen. Like, you are going to see, and as soon as we- Oh, totally... 58:13 post this thing you're gonna open the internet and you're gonna see another, you know, one of those or whatever. But- Yeah... 58:17 I, I don't know what the dis- like, y- the point that, what you said, the most interesting point to me where, like, my brain goes to is where you read the book and you're disappointed, and now what? 58:26 W- what do you do with that? What do you, Daisy, do with that? What does a publisher do with that when they realize that the books fall flat two weeks after the campaign, you know? And like, um, 58:38 w- what, what is gonna make readers, [laughs] you know, like, get psyched about these things? Like, the, the actual content of the book instead of the promotion of the book, you know? I don't know. Do you guys know... 58:51 Like, I, I'll do one more music thing. Uh, so I worked with this guy Dijon who fucking rules. He's, like, one of my favorites. He put out a record this year and did not put a picture of himself on the internet. 59:01 Did not do anything. Like, he did not do anything. 59:05 Like, he just put out the record, and like the kind of op- exact opposite of what you were saying, Daisy, in some ways of just, like, not only is he not, like, hustling or, like, try- he's just, like, actually doing nothing. 59:18 And I don't think... Maybe behind the scenes the record label did some things. He's performing though, right? Well, you know who- He's going on tour, yes. He's just started touring. 59:25 There's, there's two reasons, there's two reasons I know about him. 59:27 [laughs] The first time I heard about him was when he was on Justin Bieber's album, and then the second time I heard about him was when he was in One Battle After Another. Mm, yeah. Totally. 59:36 Which I haven't seen, but I heard his line is really good. I watched it a couple times. It's great. Yeah. [laughs] Um, so I don't know. Like, my impulse, Daisy, is different than yours, I think, and I'm not... 59:48 It's not like whatever. Like, I'm just, like, so fucking, like, what is the path that, uh, sidesteps all of it? Well, I don't know. I mean- Is Dijon kinda just taking the Charlie route though? 1:00:01 Which is, like, first she was known for being featured on songs with people that were bigger than her, and now people are known for being featured with her. Like, I think, like, 1:00:12 coming up with some degree- What you're saying is, is networking. Right. Is relationships. Well, coming up with some degree of anonymity actually is, like, a way to prevent, like, burning hard and fast. 1:00:23 Um, so maybe there's, like, a strategy to that, and I think maybe a strategy for writers as well, like, um, you know- I don't know if it's a strateg- I, I don't know. 1:00:34 Like, I'm not, I don't work for them anymore, so I don't know. But my guess is that, that Dijon's answer would be, "I think this shit is so good that I'm not gonna do anything but give you this shit- Mm-hmm... 1:00:46 and let it do its thingAnd if it means I don't get as big as I could, fine. If it means whatever it means is fi- I think he has to be at peace with that or whatever as an artist to just truly not play the game. 1:00:57 Like, I don't know that he even posted on Instagram when the record [laughs]... You know, maybe he did, maybe there was a couple, but whatever. But it was just, like, the most 1:01:05 undersold record, and yet it ha- it s- it came out earlier this year quietly. Uh, it has these l- like people are still talking about it. They're, the reviews are gone. 1:01:14 Uh, you know, now the tour's on the road, so you're getting that, whatever. But I'm just like, this guy still has not done the promotional thing. He has not done the I'm a business thing. He's just- Mm... 1:01:24 purely, "This is my music. Now I'm gonna get on stage and play it. You cannot see me, get to me, talk to me. I'm not telling you anything." 1:01:31 He did, like, one big long kind of his definitive Zane Lowe interview, I think, you know? Mm-hmm. 1:01:36 Maybe it's shrewdness, but I think for him it might be more that he thinks he can stand on the art itself, which I find ballsy and incredible. 1:01:43 Well, if you have the type of fan that responds to that, like, maybe the answer is, like, you can get away with it if your fan... 1:01:48 if you have the type of fan that will respond to that, you can get away with not- But see, that's what I'm saying... aggressively marketing yourself as an author if you have the readership. 1:01:55 I think, I think those are the fans. Those are not- Yeah... the type of fans. I think we have moved away... Like, like, that is what a fan is. Mm-hmm. Like, a fan, I think, is, um, 1:02:08 fuck- Is somebody who listens to the music and buys the ticket and isn't a fan of the TikTok videos, right? Like, that's not... Like, that's, that's the person that They're just moved by the correct thing... 1:02:15 that's a different thing. A fan is moved by the- Yeah... 1:02:17 in my mind, the correct thing, which is the, the, the work itself, not the s- thing around the work, whether it be the music industry or the festival or the agency or the fucking whatever, or their personal, um, social media accounts, you know, and, and, and those kind of promos. 1:02:33 It's, it's like the, the fan... I want the fan to be into the thing, which same way I want them to be into the book, you know? Yeah. And the actual what's inside the book. 1:02:42 Um, there was this other thing [laughs] like, where like, I was talking about someone's books, this publisher's books that looked really good, and he's like, "Yeah, sometimes they look good, sometimes they look like shit. 1:02:51 It's still a book. Like, it's just a book." You know? And he's, like, not precious about it. And I was like, "That's kinda interesting," like- [laughs]... 1:02:57 this, like, not being overly concerned with, like, the sort of aesthetic position of the book or whatever. It's just like, no, what... it's actually the words inside there are the book, you know? 1:03:08 And, um, so like, I, I don't know. I feel like I'm, like, trying to sidestep the stuff where I think you're trying to unlock the stuff. And you're... I think you're trying to 1:03:18 be a progressive mover in a really uncertain time, and I, I admire the fuck out of it. I, like, I'm just like... I don't know. I don't know how to, I don't know how to move, um, further with the business part, you know? 1:03:35 Well, it'll be interesting to see how our fans respond to [laughs] our- [laughs]... collaboration later this month. Um- Yeah. I'm excited about that. Thank you so much, Adam. I think we're at time, but, uh- Yeah. 1:03:47 This has been- One thing... Tasteland. Covered a lot of ground, and we'll see you next week. Cheers. Thanks, guys. 1:03:55 [outro music]
