Transcript 0:00 [rock music] Honey. It tastes just like it looks. And it's like the entire price, the price of the meal is like what Bob makes in a month. 0:15 Um, and it, it's terrible because the service is terrible because he's looked down upon and like, you know, there's like this class stuff going on. Mm. But, um, yeah, just a really, really good book. I recommend it. 0:26 So it's a sport and a pastime, but for making bread instead of having sex. What? That's... I've never... I don't know a sport and a pastime. All right, well, that's gonna become a nodal for you. 0:36 A nodal point [laughs], okay. On the reading list? That's your homework. Okay, that's my homework. You can read it. You'll read it. You can read it in a night. It's James Salter. James Salter, okay. Writing that down. 0:45 Um, we do have a guest. You're not. I can literally see you right now. You're not writing anything down. Writing it down. Here, okay, wait. 0:51 James, maybe- That's an insane thing to say to somebody- Maybe you can do the typing... who's literally watching you. That i-... Well, you know, it's a rhetorical writing down. Um, but we do have a guest. 0:59 We have a guest waiting in the wings. Mm-hmm. Do you want to quickly say who this guest is, and then we'll let them in? I just realized, I, I, I can't pronounce his last name. Hold on. Hold on. [laughs] Sorry, Cab. 1:11 Okay, so we're talking to Charles Briscoe, who is one of the co-founders of Arena, and I always just call him Cab, which I, I think is his initials. We can ask him. 1:22 Um, so it took me a second to be like, "What is Cab's last name?" He's only in my phone as Cab. As Cab. Um, but we love him, and... Well, Francis doesn't know him yet, but Cab 1:36 thinks and puts into practice, key point, puts into practice a lot of the things that we talk about on this podcast. 1:43 And he's my favorite type of person to talk to because he has the perspective of both a business owner and operator and, um, somebody who consumes and creates a lot of culture. 1:54 So that, I think, makes him the ideal Tasteland guest. The ideal Tasteland guest. And I think Francis will agree by the end of this conversation. [laughs] I... I'm already agreeing. Let's talk to Cab. All right. Hello. 2:06 Hey, how's it going? Hey, Cab. Well- You wanna readjust? You are on camera. Do I wanna adjust? Can you... Here's a question. Can you get higher up in the frame? Because Tom, he's a little sensitive about it. 2:19 Or we could all go lower. [laughs] We could all sink in our seats a bit. I'm in, I'm in a chair that, that adjusts, so I can slowly sink kind of villain style. Is that better? This is as low as I can go. Oh, no, higher. 2:33 Sorry. Did I say lower? Higher. Um, yeah, also I forgot your last name. Hmm? I was like, "His full name is Cab." [laughs] Charles Briscoe is my full name. I know. I remembered. 2:45 [laughs] This is a weird- Are you- This is a weird way to come on here. [laughs] I know. She's- Are you, are you comfortable?... insulting you. I'm not insulting him. Uh, I don't know. Uh, am I? 2:58 Is this the right- Yeah... this is what you're looking for? This is perfect. You're, you're good. You're good. You're great. Okay. Okay, yeah. You know what? I'm gonna... Francis. [laughs] Your move. 3:07 Who's so s- [laughs] Who is sensitive about this? Tom, our producer. Hi, Tom. Producer Tom. I've never met him. We don't even... I don't- never even seen a photo. No. Tom- Well-... 3:17 can you please email me a photo of yourself? You guys have never corresponded. So that I know who I'm talking to. [laughs] Never ever. Or just patch yourself in right now. You yourself- Yeah... 3:24 have a podcast or radio show, which do you prefer? Yes. Montes Press radio show. Oh. Oh. Mm-hmm. Montes Press Radio. Um, it's a radio show. Uh, I-- Meg, Meg runs the whole thing. Yeah. Um- Meg is... 3:39 What's Meg's formal title? She's editorial director at Arena. She's unbelievably talented, amazing editor- Unbelievably... writer- Yeah... 3:48 and thinker, and wrote a wonderful essay for the collaboration that Dirt did with Arena on Scent and Memory. Yeah. It made me cry so hard- Yes... I couldn't finish editing it the first time. Yeah. Couldn't smell. Yeah. 3:59 [laughs] Highly recommended. It's intense. Yeah. Yeah. Really, really good. But Cab- One of the best things I've read all year... you're also a excellent writer, and Francis and I- Me? Yes. Well, that's nice. 4:10 We're gonna get into it, but we both read, uh, your- Here for the Wrong Reasons... Here for the Wrong Reasons, which is a combination of a, a lecture and essay. 4:19 But look, I have to put it back to Meg again, because Meg actually really gave me the confidence to write. Like, she's so good at editing people and also so good at, like, knowing what to push on, you know? 4:33 Knowing, like, what, what particular talents people have with writing and making people who don't write feel comfortable writing- It's-... which is, like, what a gift... those are the best qualities- You know?... 4:42 of having an editor. I feel like- Totally... being an editor, it's all-- the skill set is primarily emotional. Mm-hmm. And people don't realize that. Actually- Yeah... let's get, let's get Meg in here. 4:55 Um, could we- [laughs] What? Well, like- Patch, patch Meg in... critiquing people- Tom, patch Meg in please. Getting people- Yeah... to, like, be comfortable with being critiqued. Yeah. Yeah. That's... Yeah. It's hard. 5:06 I mean, writing is so difficult, you know? I think, like, it's, like, the hardest thing in the world. You're telling me. Communicating is really tricky. I disagree. I mean, you both are writers, but- No, I think- Yeah... 5:21 but I think is the hard thing the writing or is it the emotional blockage? It's a bit of that. Yeah. It's not the... I mean, it's not the, like, literal typing. 5:32 It's the [laughs] trying to figure out what you wanna say and- Yeah... saying it in a way that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. So- And I think, like- Okay... 5:39 I think it gets harder also to write as time goes on, and people get sort of more and more ADD, you know. 5:47 You wanna say a lot of different things at the same time, and understanding how to sequence things is really difficult. Mm-hmm. I always... 5:55 I, I, I mean, think great editors are like doulas 'cause you're giving birth to this piece- Yeah... and this idea. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I believe in doula. And, uh, it's very personal and- Yeah... 6:07 anytime somebody writes something for Dirt and says something to the effect of, "I could have only written this for you," or, "I would have only written this for you"-I take that as the highest compliment Mm-hmm. 6:16 Totally. Because- Yeah... it has nothing to do with my skills as an editor, which I actually am not formally trained. I don't think I'm amazing copy editor. I think it has something to do with the, the way that- Vibes... 6:30 they feel. Yeah, yeah. And so- Yeah... Meg is very skilled in that. Me- Meg is very skilled in that. 6:38 And the other thing-- One of the other things that Meg works on is the Arena annual, which comes out every year, and she primarily works with people on Arena, like people who are not... 6:50 Some writers, some people who are, uh, have a lot of experience writing, but also just people who have never written anything before. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 6:56 Which I know you do a lot too, Daisy, which is like, it's a very cool quality. It's an important goal of ours, um, 'cause- Yeah... you have to have, get ex- you have to have experience to get experience. And, um- Yeah... 7:10 so I always try to set some of my time aside to work with people who are very, very green. Um. Yeah. So okay. Well, let's get into it. Hopefully, we set you at ease. 7:22 I'm sorry we hazed you off the, off rip, but, um- It's fine. I know you can handle it. Um, you guys had an anniversary recently? Thirteen years, right? Birthday? Yes. Thirteen years, yeah. Lucky 13. The anniversary... 7:37 Yeah. Is it? The anniversary is the anniversary of the domain name. [chuckles] That's how you put it. That's like the closest thing we have to a birthday. Yeah. 7:47 There's things in our database that are older than 13 years, but that's the birthday we celebrate. Well, so you wrote this essay, Here For The Wrong Reasons, like, kind of for this 13th anniversary, right? 7:57 And then- Previous one. Uh, previous anniversary. Okay. It was 2023. I... Yeah. It- Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. I... Well, I... It's a little weird because I wrote it for... 8:08 It's, it's like an adaptation of the talk that I gave at FWB. Mm-hmm. Um, and in it I'm, like, talking about an essay that I wrote for- For the 10 year... another [chuckles] for the 10-year anniversary. Yeah, yeah. 8:23 I think that's- Yeah. I mean, that's notable, so- But also happened to coincide on the 12th. Mm. 12 year, 12 year anniversary. Well, the... And the reason Cab and I started talking about this is you texted it to me. 8:33 And Cab, by the way, listens to this podcast, which I was so- Yes. That made me really happy to hear. [chuckles] Uh, that was very- Yeah. Yeah. I've listened to... 8:41 I've never, I've never been on a podcast before where I've listened to every episode. Oh. I feel like I know exactly what's going on. Well, I'm honored. I will not listen to this episode. Yeah. 8:50 But I've listened to every other episode. So okay. Please state your height [chuckles] if you know what's going on. You do. No, I'm just kidding. Um, so you texted me. You watched my talk. 9:03 I think what you were, we were pulling out was at the end of my talk, which I talked about on this podcast, I- Yes... was highlighting this idea of associative chains that comes from- Mm. Yes... 9:15 a quote by Joseph Brodsky. And I think, Cab, your version of associative chains is nodals that you talk- Yeah... about in this lecture and essay. And- Yes... 9:28 Francis and I gravitated towards that immediately because, um, you know, the composite of a person's nodals, uh, forms their taste and identity. But- Yeah... there's something that you get at in 9:47 why we pay attention to certain things and sort of collect them as nodes in our taste that is different from a sort of cynical and algorithmic view of taste, which is that it's not, uh, it's not that every person is sort of predestined to go out and collect certain knowledge. 10:03 You could even call it completionism. 10:06 Um, but that our desire and attention falls to certain things because of the way that we feel about the person, place, or thing that introduces that to us, and so in that way, taste is a lot more similar to love than it is to education. 10:25 Um. Yeah. Yeah. That's what I took from it. Well, let me... Can I, can I read this? Yeah. Uh, I just wanted to read your definition of the nodal points here quick- You may... for the listener. Yes, please. Yeah, please. 10:33 So you say, um, "Then I started thinking about all the other important nodal points, I don't know what else to call this, of people, places, books, albums, websites, et cetera, that all played a part in shaping who I am as a person and what I think is important. 10:46 These points are a combination of seeking things out myself and getting recommendations from important people in my life, a mixture of both passive and active knowledge acquisition." Yeah. Yeah. 11:00 Daisy, I never had it said back to me like that, but I think you're right. It's like the, the distinction between, like, love and education is really nice, and actually it's interesting because we, 11:17 like, we sort of internally think about Arena in terms of something like self-directed education, but it's hard to use the word education when you're talking about it. 11:28 Like, like, it sets up a whole context that you might not... Like, that might feel like a little, um, stiff or something. And, mm, something that's more like love is like, like, yeah. 11:45 It's more similar to, like, what we're getting at, you know? It's like you're paying attention to things. You have a natural inclination to f- certain things in the world. 11:55 How do you, like, cultivate that relationship with the things that you're paying attention to? Mm-hmm. And how do you, like, sort of... How do you know what the [chuckles]... 12:06 I mean, increasingly now it's like how do you know what the things that you're paying attention to are, like, your own or coming from some outfu- outside influence, you know? 12:16 Um, that's kind of what you were saying about this, like-Algorithmic versus seeking things out yourself Taking a step back, how do you describe Arena to somebody who's never seen it before? 12:30 I'm guessing you're maybe one of the earliest.na domain holders. Oh, well- Maybe the most influential [chuckles]... ma- yeah, maybe, yeah. So.na is a Namibian, it's like a Namibian country code. 12:44 Um, and, uh- He's a man of the world [laughs] Um, uh, yeah. I didn't pick the name. Um, my, one of my, the early co-founders, John Michael Boling, did, and he was really... 12:59 We were a fan of this website called Delicious, um, which was sort of, like, similar in, um, motivation. Um, but Delicious had the, the domain name dl.icio.us. Mm. 13:15 Um, and this was, like, a thing in the early 2000s of, like, making domain names. I mean, I guess it still is, but- Mm-hmm... um, anyways, uh-.fyi- The way I just-... is pretty hot right now. 13:27 The- I feel like.io has fallen off a little bit too. Yeah..io is a little cheesy. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I never saw... There's a... Like, I thought.is, which is Iceland- Mm... 13:39 would've gone harder, but never really- I should've done my personal website, bfranc, F-R-A-N-C,.is. Big mistake. Yeah. I probably still could. Yeah, you could. Anyways. 13:50 The way I describe Arena, we have, we, I, I, like, 13 years in, I still have a hard time with this. Um, I try very hard not to, like, lean on, um... It depends on how lazy I'm being. 14:02 Anyways, um, if I'm being lazy, I will associate it with another service. If I'm not being lazy, then I will say something like, uh, playlists for ideas, a tool for creative research- Mm... something like that. 14:16 I think- Um. Having, having read- Go ahead... 14:18 like, I mean, in the past hour or two before this, you know, I was reading other interviews you've done, et cetera, where you have made different attempts to define it in multiple, multiple ways. 14:27 [laughs] And I, I feel like there's this, like, you know, you don't wanna define it because it's kinda like the point is kind of to defy any one definition, right? Like, I think one way- Yeah... 14:38 you could describe it as, like, a big digital library, and, like, it's a, it's about making tables where you pile... People come together to, like, pile stuff on these tables, whether it's a book or a- Yes... 14:47 a picture or whatever. But it's like, I, like, it, the point is to avoid definition, right? 14:55 It's like to be this kind of crowdsourced thing, to be, like, about, like, making new connections, these nodal points, like, bringing together these- Yeah... things in a way that's always changing and always shifting. 15:07 Yes. Right? Yes. Yeah. Thank you, Francis. Yeah. That's a nice way to... Um- Yeah. That's, uh, that, that's very generous. [laughs] I, I try. I... Well, okay, one, one thing, I'm not actually an Arena user myself. 15:20 Um, I've, like, dabble- I've, like, you know, opened it up a few times over the years. Uh, but I have a friend who is, like, a, a design technologist and, you know, very of this world. 15:31 He's a, he's a big Arena user, and I asked him if he had any questions that he would want me to ask you or something as a big user. 15:39 Um, and okay, what he said was, "I keep wondering if Arena and mood boarding in general has accidentally contributed to so much of culture being slop." 15:51 Um, I, and I think this is coming from a, you know, like, he has a bunch of art director friends, et cetera, so he's, like, so embedded- Mm-hmm... in this world. But he says, like- Mm-hmm... 15:58 "I.e., instead of an art director having to properly, properly engage with the subculture for references to situate themselves, they'll just find the visual references on Arena and never have to read the whole book," which I think- Totally... 16:09 to put, like, I don't know, to put a question on that, like, when I... 16:12 Like, any social endeavor on the internet, any platform, any, like, chat room, whatever, I think inevitably it has these things where, uh, you know, it, it, it calcifies in a certain way where it becomes this thing, and it can decalcify, and it, you know, keeps shifting. 16:28 But I think the worry there is that, like, when, with Arena being about, like, you know, find, like, bringing together different nodal points, what, like, do you think- Mm-hmm... people come in and, like, 16:42 I don't know, don't bring their own nodal points and just start feeding on it and, like, defeat the purpose in that way? Yeah, definitely. I, uh, yeah, okay. So, like, backing, to bring it back to the essay, 16:56 my motivation a little bit when I was writing that was it was coming out of the sort of like, um, like, a little bit of a self-critique of Arena, but also sort of the critique of that- Mm... 17:11 kind of activity in general, where you're just sort of like... Like, I'm a little bit older. The word poser means something very specific to me, you know, and it's really complicated. Mm-hmm. 17:24 Like, I, [chuckles] my philosophy is, like, I'm kind of like a poser apologist. Like, I think that people have to start somewhere, you know? Mm-hmm. Like, like, if you notice that you're into something, 17:38 you have to start somewhere. Like, you have to kind of act like you're more into it than you are in order to get to a place where you, like, fully understand why you're into it, you know? 17:49 And certain people, like, pull that off more than others, and certain people, like, have insecurities about it, so they do it in a really weird way, but you still, you have to start somewhere. Um, 18:01 yeah, it's a little bit of a s- it's a, it's sort of like a bad side effect to what the- Well, you live long enough-... the point of the platform is... 18:08 to see your company logo on a starter pack, or you die early- Yeah... is I think how I would say it. 18:13 And Kev, I'm wondering, like, how much of your definition of a poser as, like, a very forgiving definition comes from your experience in the skateboarding community and, like, what it takes to take up a new physical activity? 18:24 [laughs] Yeah, it's 100% coming from that. It's like, yeah, you, you go... You- if you're a skateboarder... I mean, don't get me started on this. This is like a whole thing. You, we started you. 18:35 I'm sorry.I mean, um, yeah. I've, I'm-- I've skateboarded for a long time. It's like the, the psychology of skateboarding is deeply embedded into my brain. 18:47 But that early experience of, like, not being good at skateboarding, thinking it's really cool, like, wanting to associate myself with it, and, like, going through the sort of, like, hardships of 19:03 being uncomfortable and sort of, like, knowing that people are making fun of me for sucking at skateboarding. Like, yeah, going through that myself, I'm like, everyone has to start somewhere. Mm. 19:15 Like, if you're into farming and you've never farmed before, you have to, like, pretend like you're-- you have to go out and buy-- You have to buy Carhartt pants. [laughs] You know what I mean? Which is weird. 19:27 It's super weird. But eventually you, like, understand that... You know what I mean? You start cosplaying- You have to, like, pretend... and then eventually you just are doing the thing. 19:35 I think, well, another quote I wanna bring in here is from your The Creative Independent interview, which is, uh, now seven years old, twenty seventeen. 19:42 You said, "Now we're interested in what it takes to get the average Instagram user, for instance, to be interested in using Arena. It's a very cheesy phrase, but we sometimes ask, 'How can we make being smart cool?'" 19:53 Which I think is what we're talking about. 19:55 Like, you've succeeded in making being smart cool, and then people want-- But I guess what you're saying here too is it's just an entry point where, like, yes, maybe you come in with these similar references, but the hope then is that, like, 20:07 you find more and expand within the ecosystem, right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's interesting because when I said that, like, we ne- we, we haven't uttered that phrase in a really long time. Seven years. 20:20 Um, because it's so-- Yeah, yeah. But it's like there weren't, there were less of-- Uh, think pieces were, like, less of a thing seven years ago- Mm... which is so hard to imagine. 20:31 It's like there-- O-obviously there have always been essays, but, like- [lip smacks] The think pie- the think piece industrial con-... being smart is, like, a different- Yeah, industrial complex. Yes, exactly. 20:39 Yeah, yeah. Well, that's- The content industrial complex... Substack's legacy. Like, that's their version of- Yeah. Mm.... ending up in a- Yeah... Slim Pac meme. Yeah. We talked about that with Casey a lot. 20:51 And, uh- You know- Yeah... everyone wants to be a writer because it's cool. I mean, uh, sorry, I don't wanna cut you off- And-... but, like, this also feeds into- Mm-hmm... 20:57 something else we wanna talk about, which is, like, dealing with copycats. Yeah. Like, when you're- Yeah... so successful, then people are copying you. 21:03 [lip smacks] Well, I think, I mean, to, like, stick on Substack for a second. Mm-hmm. Like, Medium was, Medium was the thing that was, that was doing that before Substack. Yeah. Mm. Right? Like, 21:17 and there was a certain look for, like, Medium articles, you know? And I also sort of feel like a poser apologist for Substack too, which is like, yeah, a lot of people wanna write. Writing is really hard. 21:31 It's, like, really hard to express your thoughts. It's nice that a lot of... Like, the- Mm... the hard part for me is, like, there's an industry built into it. But I think, like, to relate it back to 21:46 making smart cool or whatever, the version of that on Arena is, like, maybe having, like, a channel of, like, a ton of PDFs or something. Mm. You know? 21:54 Which also I'm an apologist for because I have a ton of books that, like, some of them I will never read. You know? Like- Same... I think it's fine to... Yeah. I, I think there's some part of, like... 22:10 [lip smacks] There's some aspect of, like, presenting yourself as, like, how you want to be that is not bad. It can get to, like, a really weird place online, but it, like, 22:24 just pushing a little bit outwards is, like, not bad. Mm-hmm. In my opinion. You know? I think there's an argument to be made that PDFs are one of the most democratic mediums there are on the internet, and 22:36 maybe somebody will make it in-- I would love for somebody to make it in, uh, the, not pages of dirt. [laughs] If you're reading, if you're listening to this and you wanna make that argument for dirt, get in touch. 22:48 [laughs] What's the argument? I don't know. PDFs are- I don't know. That PDFs are the most demo- Oh, you want somebody to make the argument? Yes. You want someone else to- Yes... finish your thesis. Yes. I see. 22:58 Taste Sound listener- Yeah, yeah... that's you. You're that someone. Yeah. Yeah. Um, well, Cab- I could-... you mentioned the word industry. Uh, uh, Arena did not take investment, and one thing- Yes... 23:11 that we wanna get into on this podcast more is, like, um, you know, there's so much great media criticism out there, but Francis and I feel like people don't talk about business models enough. Mm-hmm. 23:20 So can you talk a little bit about, like, how is Arena funded? What's your business model? And where does the majority of your revenue come from? Yeah. Maybe it's easiest to, like, work backwards. So currently 23:33 all of our revenue comes from subscriptions. Um, I mean, all, like, ninety-nine percent. Mm-hmm. Um, and that's people paying for the premium version of Arena. So on Arena, you can... There's channels and blocks. 23:51 Channels are the folders. Blocks are the files. You have a limit if you have a free account of two hundred free blocks, which essentially ends up being sort of like a paid or free trial. 24:03 So once you hit the limit, you kind of, you kind of know whether or not you wanna continue or not. Um, so that how, that's how it works. Um, the reason it's like that is sort of like 24:18 we're trying to reverse engineer, like, what we would want out of a platform like this. You know what I mean? Like, this is a tool that if we weren't building it, we would want something like this to exist. 24:30 And so what is like-- How can, how can a, a service like Arena function, um-Where it's not going to be motivated to like get in the way of you doing your thing, you know? It can't be ads at all. 24:48 It can't be selling data at all. So like what, what follows that? And I think like subscription is not like, it's not like a, it's not necessarily an innovative business model. Like a lot of people do that. 25:02 But I don't think... As far as I know, we're the first social network to have a, like a subscription-based thing. 25:09 Well, I think what, what really stands out to me too is that it's like you-- it's, it's only that you've been around for like, for 13 years doing this, growing slowly, and that like the reason you do this is to grow, is because it allows you to like keep doing it and grow as needed. 25:25 But like growth isn't the point. The point is to keep doing what you're doing and- Yes... naturally it grows, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, the point is that for... The, the point is for it to be really good. Mm. You know? 25:41 And it's does have to grow at a s- like a slow pace. It, it has to grow at a certain pace for it to be good. It can't grow too fast and that will, uh, that would counteract the goal of it being good. 25:55 There's not- You know what I mean? You can't be like an Arena, like, like... And I'm thinking now of like other kind of like social network products like, you know, obviously like an Instagram, et cetera, um, where like 26:06 I think they all become so gamified by people, you know, using their monetization opportunities, whatever, trying to like build a huge audience, the hyper-growth, et cetera. You can't really do that on Arena, right? 26:16 Like you can only really be as equal a participant as somebody else, right? There's no like, "Look, I'm the most followed." Yeah. 26:24 Which I think is, is part of what makes it special and is like part of what allows it to keep growing in that way. Yeah. Yeah. 26:31 I mean, I think like maybe the most popular channel is Good Sign Offs, which is just like a collection of... That's also Meg's channel. 26:41 Uh, a collection of like email sign, sign offs, um, but there's no like- What's your go-to sign off, Kab? My- Best Is that yours, Francis? Yes. No. No. Um, no. These days it's, uh, [laughs] these days it is, "Cheers." 26:58 Ew. Cheers. What the heck? It used to be best. It used to be best. Poser. Um- Poser alert. [laughs] I usually do a smiley face. Oh, that's cute. Like an emoticon smiley face. Smiley face Kab. Mine is all best. All best. 27:12 All best. Not all the best, just all best. No, all best. I just started doing it- Wow... and I never stopped. Um, my contribution to the Good Sign Offs channel s- uh, a sign off that I saw in the wild was cool comma. 27:27 [laughs] That's really good. Just cool. I thought it was amazing. Like, you know- That's like me at 17 like leaving the kitchen after talking to my mom like, "Cool." Give her a nod and leave. 27:40 [laughs] Now you'd say cheers. I would say [laughs] yes. Cheers, moms. Talking to my mom. Cheers, Mom. Cheers. [laughs] Thanks for- Cheers... the snack. Why do you think people gravitate towards that channel, Kab? 27:53 What makes that the platonic ideal of an Arena channel? Because it's, it's such a... I mean, it's a very specific node. It's not necessarily making people smarter. But what- No... 28:05 drives their attention and attraction and desire towards this collection? Um, my theory is that the things that end up being popular on Arena are sort of like prismatic or something. 28:23 Like you can see them from a lot of different perspectives, and you can put your own perspective onto it. Like, like going viral on Arena is like having a block that sort of fits in a lot of different contexts. Mm. 28:37 You know what I mean? Like a thing that can be modular and like live in a different zone and make sense. 28:46 Um, and I sort of think that Good Sign Offs is like a framework that a person can look at, understand quickly, but also add their own flavor to it, you know? 28:59 I like to name search on Arena to see what quotes, like what lines from my writing have- Mm... like jumped over to Arena, because I have not put really any of my own writing on Arena. 29:10 And I'm always surprised by what people gravitate towards. I'm like, "Really, that?" Interesting. And then to see- And what do you-... how it ends up being categorized. Do you notice a pattern? Um, 29:24 yes, I do, but I didn't- What is it?... think of it until just now. Definitive statements. Hm. Oh. Does that track? What's an example? Yeah, kind of. Yeah. Um, what is an example? 29:37 Technological ideas rely on cultural ones in the same way that personhood relies on objecthood and vice versa. Yeah. That 100% tracks. That's a definitely a quote that would... Yeah. 29:51 You see, 'cause it's definitive, but also there's like, there's a lot of parts to it, and it could fit, it could fit in different zones. You know what I mean? Yeah. Um, I want- And I'm like, "Wow, I said that?" 30:06 [laughs] I want to talk about AI for a second in a way, you know, okay, the, the words nobody wants to hear, I want to talk about AI. But the way I want to talk about it is, again, I'm gonna quote from, uh, your essay. 30:18 Uh, "The point here that he's making is that information is composable. It's constantly being combined and recombined into new things, especially abstract information. 30:27 Think about music, art, memes, science, technology, writing, language, et cetera. All of these things are composites of preexisting pieces of information. 30:35 All nodal points are made up of other people's nodal points."Uh, which made me think of generative AI. And really- Mm... it's just an excuse for me to get on one of my soapboxes about- [laughs]... uh, about like... 30:49 Okay, so whenever I see, like, a generate- generative AI image on Twitter, say, my problem is that they all look like, like they were painted with the same colors and the same brush. And oftentimes too- Mm... 30:59 there's, like, this weird metallic thing that makes me, like, taste blood in my mouth. Um, but one of my favorite artists is the- Same as mine... 31:06 German expres- yeah, the German expressionist painter, Anselm Ludwig Kirchner. Big fan of his. 31:12 Um, and there's this book of his I have that I think was, like, released for, like, an exhibition or whatever, but it's th- this title is, is what I was thinking of. 31:20 No One Else Has These Colors, um, which was like- Mm... you know, his colors were so vivid and, like, nobody else was using colors like that- Okay, Eve Klein... at that time. 31:29 Um, but no, I think that's, that goes back to your quote where it's like, all these things are composites of preexisting pieces of information. All nodal points are made up of other people's nodal points. To me, like, 31:41 something like y- like, yeah, that's how we create things, where it's like you're using references. 31:47 Um, another, another thing, the rec- the New York Times profile of The Dare last week, it ends where he's like, it's a line of his where he's like, "Sometimes I just sing one note, sometimes I steal what other people wrote." 31:57 Um, okay. The, the point here, I guess, is that, like, I don't know. When people do it, it's interesting. When AI does it, it's not, for, like, a generative AI image specifically. Why? Like, I don't know. 32:09 Like, the why is like- Well-... I guess what Arena's all about... in the words of Ram Dass, we're all just mood boarding each other home, right? [laughs] Oh my God. Cat is [laughs] furious. 32:23 [laughs] I'm gonna let you take over. He got, he got up. He got up. He's walking off. Oh, no. If you're not watching the video, he walked off. Um- Um [laughs] Thoughts? 32:32 I think, I think it's related to this sort of like... The, the conclusion that I was coming to in that essay was, like, sort of what, what Daisy was saying. It's, like, the distinction between, like, love and education. 32:48 Mm-hmm. You know? And, like, the, the, the thing itself in the world is not the thing that's important. It's, like, a person's attraction to it. Mm. You know? And I think... 32:59 I mean, you kind of said the same thing, but, like, my problem with, like, I just, like, can't get interested because I know that there, like, the line between a human and the final thing- Mm-hmm... 33:14 is l- so convoluted, you know? It's, like, so much more convoluted than- Yeah... another form- There's all these hedges... of technology. There's all these hedges, yeah. 33:24 And so, like, like, the thing that tends to be interesting to me about any p- particular nodal point or thing in the world, like, thing that I'm attracted to is, like, this came out of a person. Mm-hmm. 33:36 You know what I mean? And this, like, person did this. And, like, think about, like, being alive and making that thing is, like, crazy. What it betrays about them. You know? 33:47 Yeah, what it betrays about them or just, like, getting yourself to a point where you're, like, c- can possibly make something, like, so amazing. Mm-hmm. You know? 33:55 Well, it's like I've stolen music taste from every person I've ever dated, and I think most people would say- Yeah... the same. Um, that's- But now you're the composite of that, which is unique. 34:06 Now I'm the composite, and Francis- But you didn't steal, you didn't steal all of the taste. No. You stole the things that you like. Yes. That's the thing. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. It's like you're... 34:17 Everyone is taking pieces all the time. Mm-hmm. Like, it doesn't matter if you're taking the pieces. Like, it's the... Yeah, exactly. It's the composite. Mm-hmm. Yeah. 34:25 It's like you start off and you're like, "Hey, this reminded me of you." But enough passes and now it's like, it reminds me of me. Of you. Yeah. 34:34 Um, and I think Francis wanted to go through and talk about, like, for us to each give a, a, like, a recent node or something that's still feels- Oh... like an object of visceral attention. Um, mine's a little bit weird. 34:49 So I, for, for the last year or so, I've been having a little bit of a crisis of language and 35:02 it, it's sort of parallel to something that one of my relatives went through around, um, COVID, which was a bunch of members of her church were not taking the virus seriously. And I was talking to her about it, and she 35:18 really felt like it changed her relationship to the church. So I asked her, "Are you having a crisis of faith?" And she said, "No, I'm not having a crisis of faith. I'm having a crisis of the faithful," 35:30 which I thought was very astute. And I think I'm not having a crisis of language, I'm having a crisis of the way that language is used. Because for my whole life, I felt like if you say the right word at the right time, 35:45 any... 35:46 Like, just a matter of knitting together two disparate realities, it really comes down to saying the right thing, and I think this is the year that I actually lost that belief fully, which is an odd thing to believe as a writer. 36:01 But this is where the node comes in. Recently, I was driving back from Maine to New York. I stopped at a rest stop in Massachusetts, and not really one of the fancy ones. 36:13 Like, one of the inside-outside ones, um, where you sort of, like, walk into this covered area, and then there's doors to the bathroom. Yeah. Yeah. I go in, and this is late August. There's a sign... 36:26 First of all, like, this bathroom is not well cared for. Like, half the soap dispensers are out. Like, the towel thing doesn't work, whatever. 36:33 But on the wall is a piece of paper that said, um-Call yourself, I will answer Mm-hmm I found your iPhone, basically. 36:44 And it's dated from July, which means, like, this bathroom is not well cared for, but every woman who has passed through this bathroom has left that sign there. 36:54 And for some reason, the phrase, "Call yourself, I will answer" Yeah... was like, it, it sort of... It didn't restore my faith in language, but I was just like, "This is actually a good use of language." Mm. 37:11 This actually makes sense to me. It makes more sense to me than all this other bullshit that people are spewing about, um, whatever. Like, 37:23 uh, any bullshit that you count on social media, whether it's, like, relationship advice, you know, people who are communicating but not really communicating, or, um, even just, like, poor cultural criticism. 37:35 And- Mm-hmm... it's now become this, like, major node where I've thought about this sign every day, and I wanna write about it. Um, and it doesn't really belong to me. 37:43 I mean, it doesn't really belong to anyone except for, like, every woman that's, like, used that restroom. Mm-hmm. And it almost felt like a community artifact too. Yeah. Yeah. 37:52 And I passed, I, I passed the same one, actually, this time we didn't stop there, but I almost wanted to stop to see if it was still there. Mm. And I have a photograph. But- Oh, you have a photograph. That's good... 38:01 it was a little bit biblical. Like, I posted it on Twitter, and a lot of people were like- Yeah... "This is kind of biblical." Which kind of goes back- Yeah. You need-... to the crisis of the faithful analogy. Yeah. 38:11 Yeah. Yeah. You need to put that on Arena. That would be the Arena version of going viral. [laughs] 'Cause you asked so nicely, Cab, I'm gonna do just that. Please. I'm gonna do just that. 38:21 But also, I don't, I don't wanna ruin this phrase for you, but it really reminds me of that, um, [tsks] I'm blanking on the name of the movie, the David Lynch movie, um, where, um... [tsks] Um. Let me call... 38:34 Let me phone my husband. He knows every David Lynch movie. Yeah. It's, like, it's, um, uh, Robert Durst is, like, meets Bill Pullman at the party, and he's like, "I'm at your house right now. Call me." 38:47 And he calls the hou- Oh... he calls the house in front of him, and he ans- and he answers the phone. That's funny. I haven't seen any David Lynch movies, I have to admit. It's one of those things where it's like- What? 38:56 [laughs]... it's like I... It's one of those things where it's like I know... Like, I went to college in Portland, Oregon, right? So everyone's talking about Twin Peaks. So I'm like, "Look, I get it. 39:05 I get that it's good. I get that I would like it." And I've watched, like, one or two episodes, and it's like, yeah, I get it. Like, I'll like it. So it's like- [laughs]... you know, I don't need to watch it. 39:14 It's like I've... It's understood. It's too much for you. Like, I've never read any- Yeah. Yeah... Bukowski either. It's like, I get it. I will like it, you know? Like, it's like- Honestly... I'll get to it eventually. 39:23 Yeah. Whatever. I don't know. That's like me. I've never seen Titanic. But I feel like- Me neither... I've absorbed the whole film by osmosis. I get it. I will like it. Yeah. 39:29 [laughs] You and I should watch it and do a whole episode of it. [laughs] We could. Yeah. We could. You should. You should do that. You should do that. Yeah. Yeah. But enough about me. Cab, recent note. 39:37 What's my recent nodal point? Recent nodal point. Mm, I kind of feel like I'm on the spot. I think the f- Well, you are... it's not, not... I mean, also following up that story- You trench the side, though. 39:48 It's like- Following up that story with, I'm just gonna say, like, a book, you know what I mean? Mm-hmm. It's like, that's tricky. [lip smacks] Yeah. In the same way that, like, um, every... 40:04 You said, like, your musical taste is, is a composite of everyone you ever dated or something. There's, like, some people in my life who recommend books that just, like, change everything, you know? 40:19 And my friend Jamie Whipple, um, like, every book he's ever recommended to me has been really good, but the one in particular I'm thinking of is, um, Shadow of the Torturer by Gene Wolfe, which is, like... 40:32 I don't know how to start describing it. I just read Book of the New Sun. The whole Book of the New Sun, yeah. Oh, great. Yeah, there you go. Yeah, yeah. Is that one of the four books? [lip smacks] That's the first one. 40:39 The first one, yeah. Yeah. So this is a series. Yeah, yeah. Can you actually explain it to me? 'Cause I'm not familiar. Oh, my God. Um, it's, like, a sci-fi... It's a sci-fi book. Um- 40:51 It's, like, so far in the future that it's actually the past kind of vibes. Well, okay, I was debating on whether or not to say that- [laughs]... 'cause it's kind of a spoiler, but, um, 40:59 uh- That was how I was introduced to it, even before, even before I read it. Okay. So I don't know. I still enjoyed not having read it. Is this The Giver for adults? Mm... Probably not. I've... I don't... I did... 41:10 Last I read The Giver, like, 20 years ago. [laughs] Um, the... It's kind of like, uh, the... It's written in the first person. The, the, the narrator is unreliable. It's a lot about memory. 41:23 I would say it's more like a science fiction version of Proust or something. Mm. Okay. Like, it's... Yeah. That's... I, I like that a lot, actually. Yeah. That's compelling. 41:32 Um, the, the other fun fact about Gene Wolfe, if you look him up, um, and look at his face, and then think about the Pringles can. [laughs] And he worked at the Pringles factory- What?... 41:47 he, like, like, while he was starting his career, and the Pringles man and him look exactly the same. He developed the shape, I think. I might be... No, no, I'm almost positive. He developed the shape of the Pringle. 42:02 He was, like, one of the engineers- What?... who developed the shape of the Pringle. Wow. Yeah. That's insane. Yeah. The shape of the Pringle, I mean, 42:11 I can't say for certain that it adheres to the golden ratio, but I think that it must. Something like that, yeah. There's nothing like the mouth feel of a Pringle or- I know... a two Pringle beak. 42:21 [laughs] Yeah, that's- The duck beak... and then destroying it. Yeah. Um, okay, I'll say my nodal point now. I, I've, I've been trying to think of a more recent one, but, like, the only... 42:32 [sighs] Like, there's books, et cetera, that I've read recently, but, um, probably the most significant one that feels like it was, like, not just a nodal point, but, like, a nodal nexus is, like, just-Watching soccer generally, which I talk about the, talk about a little too much on this podcast. 42:48 But like really when I think like it was the World Cup 2022, particularly like the final game that like really got me into it and I was like, "I need more of this." Because I feel like my like... 43:00 As, as long as I could remember, I've loved information and consuming information, you know? Um- Wow. And I lo- I don't know, I love just like- You really need to be on Arena. I do. [laughs] That's like the tagline. 43:11 Well, but just like, you know, oh, like with soccer I could get into it and like I, you know, it's... I like friendships with old friends were rekindled. New friends I've met. Like so much, so much I've read. 43:23 All these stats that are now in my mind. All these connections- Mm... of like this player was on this team and this team. Mm. And like this time they scored that many goals. Like I... 43:30 There's like other more recent nodal points, but like that is like a nodal nexus where like it just- Mm... opened the door to- Opened it... 43:37 to like so much information that has like fundamentally changed how I live my life. Like I'm like on Saturdays- Wow... 43:44 I'm waking up to watch this game at 7:30 or whatever, or I don't know, I'm going to a x- such and such bar and like sitting down and like talking to a stranger about what's happening in the game. 43:56 Um, so there's like books, movies probably, but like that is probably the most significant like nodal nexus in my life in recent years. Soccer is your Esperanto. It's my Esperanto. 44:08 [laughs] You won't give up on Esperanto. [laughs] I know. It's- It is... it's so interesting to know the lore of the show and know exactly what both of you are talking about. Mm-hmm. It's really nice. 44:18 You're, you're one of the, you're one of our- I've never, I've never f- The few, the proud. [laughs] Yeah, I've never felt more prepared. Yeah, the few, the proud. He's a true tastehead. A true tastehead. True tastehead. 44:26 [laughs] Wait, speaking of true tastehead, I thought, I, I thought it was very funny that a month ago you were on another podcast called It's Called Taste. Um- Yeah, what's up with that? Yes. 44:34 I couldn't not bring that up. He's doing the circuit. But wait- I'm doing the circuit, yeah... I wanna read a couple things you said that I really liked. Um- Okay... you said, well, you defined taste. 44:44 "What I would categorize as taste is something like a manifestation of one's true personality. Everyone has taste, and having good taste is just being yourself optimally." You stand by that? Yes. Oh, yeah, totally. Yeah. 44:59 Yeah. I mean, you know, you know what I mean. Like, like I think that, that my problem with the sort of like, um, like, what is it? What would you call this thing that's happening with the word taste right now? 45:15 It's not a debate, but it's like definitely- Commoditization... a subject. I don't know. It's a subject that people like to talk about. 45:22 But my problem with sometimes the way that people talk about it is they talk about it as if it were like exercise or something. Mm. Like it's something you need to get good at. Well, it's lower case T taste. Yeah. Yeah. 45:35 But you think... Uh, oh, wow, yeah. So you think that there's like a ta- like a taste that one can acquire? I would describe it as the w- white paperification of taste. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 45:50 Yeah, that's kind of- Of which I am a part. Um... Yeah. I, well, I think- Well, there's taste and then there's the taste industrial complex, right? Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah. 45:59 I think that- And if you have good enough taste, if you're good, good enough at it and you create something like Arena, you can't help but become part of the taste industrial complex. 46:08 I think that that's the tension at the heart of this whole conversation. To be a taste maker. I'm... 46:12 Yeah, but I think that, I mean, yeah, I stand by what I said because I think that I, I sort of feel like the people that I recognize in my life who I think have really good taste are just like very much themselves- Mm... 46:26 opinionated about what they like and they understand like- They adhere to it in a way... I really... I'm, I'm going to say this, I'm gonna say this, and I don't like it, but I'm gonna still say it. 46:39 Like, if, if becoming a person was a world-building activity, their worlds are totally complete. Mm. You know what I mean? I do. So that's what I think. 46:53 I'm like someone who has good taste is just like that, you know what I mean? Like, like it's not like you have a fucking Eames chair or something. Yeah. 47:01 Like, there's no single thing that would convince me that someone has good taste. It's like, uh, yeah, it's the composite. It's in the, the actions, the, the values illustrated. 47:11 Well, I don't think anyone's world is ever complete though. Like, to go back to those amazing charts that you put in your essay, I think- No. I think hopefully not... it's not that they're complete- It would suck if... 47:21 Yeah, yeah... it's that they've achieved self-accusation, actualization in some way. There's some sort of like comfort level and- Yeah... self-trust- I think it's a steadiness... and confidence. 47:30 There's this like b- Yeah... buoyancy to- Yeah... to, to how they act and how they move in the world. 47:34 Like when you're talking about like an Eames chair as like a stand-in for like more of like, you know, taste that you can buy, like, or taste like... 47:41 I, I'm thinking of like, you know, being on Instagram and algorithm and like you're getting these like reels, whatever. And like you're being... 47:48 I don't know, that's like a wind that's blowing your sails as opposed to like with somebody who has great taste. Like they are less susceptible to that wind. They're less blown by it. Maybe they're, I don't know. Yeah. 47:58 Like, they have this like even-keeled forward motion where like- Equanimity. Equanimity. Yeah. Equanimity. That's nice. That's a good word for it. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. No, I hope, I hope it's never- This is Taste Land. 48:11 [laughs] Sorry. [laughs] Um, yeah, I hope it's never done. Ideally, it's never done. I... 48:20 When Cab's talking about people in his life that have good taste, I know he's not talking about me because our text messages are just like, "Here's an Anne Craven painting. What's up? Uh, what's up with you?" 48:31 [laughs] Well, do you think that- I like Anne Craven... Yeah. I love Anne Craven. I... Me too. That's why I sent you a photo of an Anne Craven painting. Yeah, it's sick. Anne Craven's sick. Yeah. 48:41 Do you know Anne Craven, Francis? I do. Karma Gallery is one of the few galleries I go to all the time. That's what's up. And you know what? [laughs] I don't know why I've been saying, "That's what's up." 48:50 That's my new catchphrase. Um-It's 'cause of the deer There was this amazing, uh, exhibit in Thomaston, Maine. I recommended it to everyone through Dirt. I missed it. It closed. 49:02 So, you know, everyone visited except for me, but I alerted them, and, um, I think Karma Karmat curated. It's in an old church that's been converted, and they had an Anne Craven painting as part of it. Sick. 49:12 And one of my other favorite painters, Katherine Bradford. Um, so- Another Karma favorite... I think you've probably seen her work. She does s- a lot of swimmers. It's really hazy work, right? Um, yeah, hazy. 49:26 I would say, like, uh- Oh, yeah... she does a lot of interesting stuff. Like, I... To me, looking at her paintings looks like, uh, swimming in bioluminescence at night. Mm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. 49:36 Which is something that I've done, and it brings back that memory in a very specific way. And so-- And she also is a Maine-based painter. Um- Cool. Yeah. Uh, one-- Okay. 49:49 Maybe shortly before we wrap up, there's one more quote I wanna end on here from your essay, and it's kind of what you end on, so fittingly enough. 49:56 Um, "All of this brings me to the title of this piece, 'Here for the Wrong Reasons'"- [laughs] "... which I have come clean, I have to come clean about. 50:03 Earlier this year, I was in a mode where I was feeling particularly annoyed at a certain type of person online. 50:10 The easiest way to describe this type of person is someone who, whose interests are more strategic than personally intuitive, a person whose interests accumulate with an awareness of how they will reflect back on- onto them, a person who follows nodal points not from an innate desire, but from the expectation of some kind of reward, social or otherwise," uh, which is, I think, the Eames chair conversation, right? 50:33 Yeah. Yeah, treating- Or founder, founder mode. [laughs] Oh, no. I haven't read founder mode. I don't know if I can. I'm not gonna read that, but I've seen the- I'm planning to absorb it by osmosis. 50:42 [laughs] I'm close to muting that phrase on my Twitter. Yeah. Yeah, that's my, my Titanic. Our, uh, so our lead investor, we have a, a Telegram channel that's read-only. 50:50 Everyone, every single portfolio company that they've invested in is- Mm... a member of this channel, and that's how they give us, like, announcements. So they posted, um- The Paul Graham founder mode essay? 51:01 They posted the Paul Graham founder mode essay in the read-only channel, and I went to my channel, like, my private chat with, uh, my lead investor and his associates, and I dropped in a tweet by my friend Rehan that said, "A lot of you are concerned about founder mode when you should be concerned about found her mode." 51:17 [laughs] And I was like, "Hey, can you take the chat off read-only? I have something I need to say." [laughs] [laughs] We have fun. We do have fun. Um, wait, sorry. 51:33 So the question about that statement? [laughs] There's no question. Yeah, well, it was a little bit nonsense. I think- There's no question. I love you. There's no question. I think it was more just summing it up. 51:41 [laughs] I think I was... Yeah, it was just a way of summing up everything we'd been talking about. Um- Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The title, yeah. I'm gonna, I'll do the, I'll, I'll do the secret reveal here. 51:53 The title is a "Bachelor" joke. Um- "Here for the Wrong Reasons." "Here for the Wrong Reasons." Like, like The Bachelor? Oh. Like the show, The Bachelor. Yeah. Yeah. 52:00 This is the sh- the phrase that they say on, on, on the show. When you wanna cast aspersions on another person, you say that you're here for the wrong reasons. Yeah. 52:07 And it's basically like, "You're here, you're here for fame and not for love." Like, that's what, that's what here for the wrong reasons is. I'm here for both. Fame and love. 52:16 Well, what I'm hearing is that taste is all about love, um, and that you should go to Are.na, A-R-E dot N-A, and that this has been Tasteland. Thank you. Thanks, Colt. See you next week. 52:32 [upbeat music] It tastes just like it costs. Ooh, honey.
