Transcript 0:00 [upbeat music] Welcome back to Tasteland. I am your co-host, Francis Zehr. And I'm Daisy Alioto. And Daisy, who are we speaking to today? Today we're speaking with Zane Kind. 0:17 He is an American boy, [laughs] a technologist, and an artist, self-described American boy. Mm-hmm. Um, he's also the co-founder of a blogging platform called Silk. 0:27 Before we get into things here, I wanna tell you about a very twee act of vandalism that I was the victim of recently. [laughs] Um, 0:39 I have a to-do list, like, uh, I'll hold it-- You know, I've got like, like a physical journal to-do list where- Mm-hmm... it's just, like, I write down-- I used to use Notion. It got to be too much. 0:48 I just, like, write a checklist of things I need to do every day. But, uh, nobody sees this. It just sits on my desk- Mm-hmm... in my house. 0:54 And then, you know, sometimes if I go to a coffee shop and do some work, I'll take it with me. 0:58 And so imagine my surprise when last week I get back from a coffee shop, and I open it, and it falls open to this page on which, from, from November, on which are scrawled these big... 1:13 th-this, this, this note, and I'm like, "This must be song lyrics or something." I, I, also, I don't recognize the handwriting. Yeah, you would think it would be my, my life partner, but it's, you know... 1:23 She's the only person who normally would see this, not her handwriting. But I suspect at this coffee shop, there were these very kind of twee zoomers, one of which was kind of depressed, one of which was very hyper. 1:36 Um, they were, they were playing Dominoes at the table next to me. And I c-can-- Like, the energy of the very hyper one, it can only have been this person. But I s- I s- okay. Anyways, this is too much, uh, intro. 1:47 So you clocked Adderall and SSRI also in the coffee shop? [laughs] Certainly. I would go back, and I would burn the whole place down. Well, so okay- I'd be like, "I need to pull your cameras." 1:57 [laughs] The craziest thing too was like th-they were getting ready to leave, and I was still working. And, and this one, the one who I assume wrote this note, was, like, taking, like, a ton of selfies, like arm up. 2:08 Like, took, like, 15. I must have been in the background or something. Anyways, okay. I thought these were song lyrics, but I Googled it, couldn't find anything. "Don't forget you left a note. 2:17 You know the time, and it's past now. But it's not over yet. It's okay to take a breath, but don't hold it too long, or you'll drown." Oh my God, you got dry five Manic Pixied. [laughs] Yeah, it was really bizarre. 2:32 Shook me to my core. Mayor Zoran [laughs] We have to- Please- We have to clean this up... please outlive this. [laughs] Uh, Mayor Zoran- I'm so sorry that happened to you... 2:41 who was on a rush episode of The Adam Friedland Show this week. Yeah. I was laughing when-- So I didn't get through the full thing yet, but when he was- I haven't had a chance to watch it just because-... 2:49 in the intro, he was talking about, like, this new community. Obviously, he was paying attention to, like, new community rewards that he's, he's offering as a independent media- Friedland... personality. Mm-hmm. 2:59 And they have, like, a new, a new stream or something for members only called The State, State of the Tafs. [laughs] But he was, like, stumbling over it because it's The Adam Friedland Show. So- Well, that's what it is. 3:11 It's a trip... you know, mid-read, he realizes it's State of the, The Adam Friedland Show, which is I gonna identify with 'cause that would happen to me as well. Yeah. Certainly. Uh, Clone went viral this weekend. 3:24 What happened there? Um, I believe the inciting personality was one Kate Wagner, also known as- Mm-hmm... McMansion Hell. 3:31 Um, we've been doing Clone for a while, and last week I was looking at it, and I was like, "Oh, we're getting close to two hundred thousand hits." Mm-hmm. "Maybe we'll cross it this week." 3:41 Little did I know, the universe was listening. Every once in a while, I will screenshot the current Clone page and just post it on Twitter just, like, you know, to get people to look at it. Yeah. 3:54 And, um, I guess- Classic growth hack. Yeah. [laughs] I guess Kate hadn't seen it before and was, like, intrigued by the design 'cause, you know, Kate retweeted and said something nice about it. 4:06 And then it just went viral. So I'm watching the, the visits tick up, and we crossed two hundred thousand, and we're-- I think over the weekend, we probably got, like, 4:18 twelve to fifteen thousand visits, which is just- That's a lot of traffic... not typical for that time period. And so I'm really hopeful a lot of those people will come back. 4:27 And I wasn't really paying attention to, like, the quo-quote retweets. Um- Mm-hmm... 4:33 I'm like, if somebody has some important thing to say or an important criticism, they'll probably just email, um, the Clone contact at the bottom of the page. 4:40 But it was a really nice surprise, and I'm really grateful that that happened. Yeah. What a nice Thanksgiving treat. [laughs] I don't know- Yeah... what to say to that. Um, also, the November issue came out. 4:54 I did read the gambling piece. I have not had the chance to read any of the others, including the seven-thousand-word piece about Ohi, but I was intrigued by your note about it in the intro. 5:05 Ohi, um, so we had a really long read, which we don't typically do. I only do- Seven thousand words. 5:11 Yeah, I only do, like, a couple long reads a year, and this one initially came in, and I read it, and I really liked it, but I just didn't have the capacity. 5:22 But it was one of the ones where I actually ended up going back to the writer and being like, "Hey, I actually can't stop thinking about this. Is it still available?" Facebook Marketplace style. Is it still available? 5:33 [laughs] Um, and- Ugh... it took about-- We edited it over the course of a month. We had some great collage illustrations from Christine Shanshan Hu, and I'm really proud with how it came out. It's, it's- Mm-hmm... 5:49 functions on a couple of different levels. It's unexpected. There's-- Not that there's, like, a twist, but 5:57 you, you start reading it, and it, it feels like a really kind of, like, amusing and eloquent critique of a certain type of, like-Wealthy liberal hypocrisy Mm-hmm And then the other sort of layer of the piece starts, which is that, like, 6:12 the author is in a, an abusive and, um, emotionally manipulative relationship. Mm. And so everything that is happening is happening on two levels. 6:26 It's happening, like, specifically in Ojai, California, with all of the advice and sort of, like, manifestation and delusion that the people are living in there that she observes. But also, like, internally, 6:42 she's battling a lot of thoughts about how to escape her situation. Hmm. Well, I will have to read it. It also, like, builds in layers, which I think it's very hard to do. 6:57 Like, when you think about stuff that AI can't do, I don't know that a good, 7:06 good quality AI writing would not be able to produce something like this unless it was copying the style, because there's something very human about slow-moving drud that- Mm-hmm... 7:18 could only be captured by somebody who is extremely tapped into both their own thought, thought process and their own creativity and their own memories. And- Mm-hmm... 7:29 so even though there's pieces of it that aren't, like, formally 100% correct, they feel more true. Let's ask Zane about it. He's here. [laughs] Okay. 7:39 [laughs] [upbeat music] Why do you have a tripod on your desk? Dude, I don't know. I'm actually not even in my own room. I'm visiting my friend at Stanford right now- Mm-hmm... so I'm in the Stanford dorms. Mm-hmm. 7:55 And, um, I'm in his roommate's room, and it's... Yeah, it's nice. It's a girl's room. It's very well, well put together. Okay, this is a really good intro. Okay. Zane, we were like, "Oh, we... 8:05 I hope we have enough to talk to Zane about." But, like, off the bat, I have so many questions. So- Okay, good. [laughs] You're in a women's dorm room at Stanford. That's true. You don't know this person. 8:17 What else are you seeing? What else is around you? There's a really nice lamp. Um, it's kinda like Noguchi style, but I don't- Yeah. I see... I don't think it actually is. 8:26 It's just we got a basic rice paper lamp situation there. We have an organic chemistry textbook. Mm. Um- O chem to the huds. Real huds. Real huds. [laughs] Now, are we recording? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Okay, amazing. 8:40 Let's do this. [laughs] We w- you might actually be our youngest guest ever. Really? Yeah. So no pressure- Okay... but you do need to represent the Zoomer mindset and mentality. Okay, I can do that. 8:54 [laughs] I think that's within my wheelhouse, for sure. [laughs] Um, Francis and I were both really drawn to your description of Silk as a Zoomer Facebook. 9:02 So not to throw you in the deep end, but what did you mean by that? [clicks tongue] You know, that's a great question. Specifically is these T-shirts you've printed, Gen Z Facebook, and you asterisk out the A. Yes. 9:16 Um, so that was just, like, a... It was kind of a bit at first, but then our community really took, took hold of it, and we're like, "Gosh, we need to capitalize on this." 9:24 And so we made it a tagline and made it a shirt, and we've probably sold, like, 100 of those shirts. Um, there's someone in our community who... 9:31 Actually, she's from Portland, uh, Anthie, and she was like, "Oh, you guys are making shirts. I can print them for you for free." 9:38 And so she just, you know, out of the kindness of her good heart, started making these T-shirts for us. 9:44 Um, but yeah, that's kinda like the mantle that we are trying to live up to probably is just the asterisk is really important to this 'cause it's a post-platform play. 9:54 Like, it's kind of learning from everything these conglomerate, like, terrible mega corps have done and, uh, trying to do it better for, um, these people who are, like, younger than 30. 10:04 What are the, like, what are the values then that you're railing against that you're trying to... and that you're trying to insert into this? Like, how do you... What do you stand on to make it different? 10:16 It really comes from wanting to bring people together. 10:18 I think, like, just at the core of it, I think that the beauty of the internet is bringing people together kind of post local, um, a- and looking at different ways that you can facilitate, like, community and, um, some kind of, like, network fulfillment rather than, like, kind of, uh, maybe isolating people and, and coaxing people apart. 10:41 Yeah. I think that's, like, taken... It is a very profitable thing to do [laughs] as we've seen. Um, and, and I think profit is good, but, um, I, I think it's been really detrimental to societal health. And, um, 10:54 it's important to me that we embody something different, and I think there's a pendulum swing that's kind of seeing that happen right now, and we're excited to be a part of it. 11:01 How do you take those values and engineer them into the UX of the actual platform so that, like, 11:11 you know, you're selecting for community members that share these values, but how are they being engineered by the design to make sure that they're maintaining them? 11:20 So the core mechanic on the platform is called a connection, and if you've ever used Arena, you're familiar. Mm-hmm. Um, but there... 11:27 We don't have a like button, and we don't show, like, follower counts, so a lot of it just inherently tries to lean away from vanity metrics, and these things can get, like, really performative, competitive, and, um, I don't know. 11:39 You know, like, comparison is the thief of, thief of joy kind of thing. 11:42 So we try to get rid of, like, anything that's just too outwardly of a, of a metric, and I think that helps people feel more comfortable on the platform. But going back to connections, that's, like, our core, you know... 11:51 That's, like, the main action on Silk. And what it does is it, you know, brings, uh, basically a piece of media, um, back to your blog or back to one of your mood boards, which we call webs. 12:02 Um, and somebody can see, you know, like, a, a trail, a trace of, you know, where you took that piece of media and follow it. 12:08 So everything is kind of organically rabbit holed.Um, and this creates these really cool, like, maps of adjacent related media that people can surf through, and if you're really into, like, indie rock or something, and you find a picture of Thom Yorke, and, like, go down that hole, you're probably gonna find, like, even more, uh, indie rock type stuff, and probably, like, some Thom Yorke interviews, and some fit pics, and, um, probably some more people who like indie rock. 12:32 So it's just trying to, I think, allow people to find, like, hot pockets, um, hotspots. Not hot pockets. I'm hungry. Um [laughs] 12:42 hotspots, uh, of, of people who, you know, share, share like-minded interests, and I think a lot of that comes down to taste. 12:50 Um, so that's the, that's the way I think just from a UX perspective that we're facilitating community a- and bringing people together around, you know, common interests. Are your users called Spiders or Silkheads? 13:02 This is hilarious. So they, they adopted the term, uh, Silkers. [laughs] It's like, it's like, "Oh my God, I'm silking it right now." It's like- Yeah... this is crazy. This is kind of a... 13:14 It feels inappropriate, but they- they've taken it and, and totally run with it. So yeah, we have silking, Silkers. 13:21 There's probably another one in there that I'm forgetting, but it's mostly- Is there a mommy Silkers community? Mommy Silkers? Yeah. You're hilarious for that. Um, I don't- For the 30-year-olds. [laughs] I... 13:32 [laughs] Maybe if you join you can start this. See, and I wanna join- Wait, wait, wait... but I'm just never gonna fill out a form. No, Francis, let me speak. No, no, that's real. 13:40 That's super real, and there's a good reason for that. Uh- [laughs] We want all the people who don't wanna do that, don't wanna fill out a form to stay away, like, for now. But then you're selecting for form fillers. 13:50 That's great. Why? You should see somebody- Filling out a form is- For the listener, what, what we're talking about- Yeah... 13:53 what we're talking about right now is there's a wait list to get in, and to, to get on the wait list you have to fill out the form. That's what we're talking about. You have to say why. Okay, so we have two wait lists. 14:01 This is crazy. Um, one of them- Francis is on one. I, I noped out of the other one. [laughs] That's fine. I'm, I'm happy that you did. We, we need the, 14:11 we need the people who are very, uh- I did the one where it looked, seemed as if all I had to do, I did it on the website, was to enter... I, I thought this was a very interesting UX decision. 14:19 You have to enter your phone number, but email is optional. Mm-hmm. I think that, um... I mean, there's so much, like, just... 14:27 I could go on a tangent about that, but I think phone numbers are better at sign-ins and way easier, lower friction, especially with, like, SMS stuff, than getting- Mm-hmm... into your email. 14:35 And so we have, you know, the big wait list, the jumbo wait list, which we've had for 14:40 probably two years now, and that's up to, like, 11,000 people, and that's been way in advance of, um, you know, ever even having a product. 14:47 Like, when it was just an idea and we had a white paper, like a little rink and think white paper. Um, and then we have this secret wait list called, um, it's on this Instagram page called Silk Intel, 14:57 and if you happen to be, you know, engaged enough and intentional enough on our main Instagram, uh, SilkNote, uh, you'll find a way into Silk Intel by requesting. 15:07 And every single person, we usually let this stack up for like a month or two. 15:11 Every single person who requests, we let in at once and send them by hand, um, me and the interns, we send them these, uh, uh, forms that say, like- That's where I see... "Hey, welcome." Like, "This is Silk." 15:22 Yeah, you got this. 15:23 And, um, if you wanna go through and, like, opt into that, you can either, you know, take your time and, and fill out this, like, kind of, like, not rigorous, but definitely, like, rather thorough application and say like, "Hey, here's, you know, where I come from, what I do, what I'm interested in, um, what I care about. 15:38 Here's, like, the links to my other socials." And we get, like, a really quick profile of, like, how you use the internet. Um, and we let almost everyone in at this point who fills out that form. 15:47 But we have, yeah, um, a very, very, like, concentrated and potent user base because of that, 'cause everyone who gets in has, like, filtered themselves through this kind of, uh, like, not gauntlet, but something to that effect. 16:01 See, Francis, now you understand. Yeah, 100%. I think the problem is I'm just fundamentally not a joiner, but I do think that there is a certain type of person that's, like, gonna be like, "I'm not filling that out," 16:12 but also, like, i- that sort of mentality means that they have, like, good taste- Yeah, yeah... because they're a rebel, you know? I was like, "Silk is for rebels. 16:24 I wanna be a Silker," and then I saw a form, and I was like, "Unfortunately, my rebel heart is leading me away from this experience." 16:29 Well, that's great, because we, we don't want to ruin the first impression of the platform for people who are, like, like, uh, like less opt-in. Mm-hmm. Uh, that's the way I'm gonna put it. And, um, w- 16:42 when we start to open up and go public a bit more, it'll be so much easier to obviously join, sign up, however you, you know, however you want. 16:48 And, um, but in the meantime, while we've been in beta for the last year kind of building this thing up, um, bootstrapping, it's been important for us to make sure that we're filtering for, like, really high intent users. 16:59 Um- Fair enough. You're- Yeah... you're outsourcing your user resource, uh, research, and I, I respect that. Um- What is the... So what is the, what is the business model here? 17:09 You, you were saying you're not, you're not averse to profit, um, but you're- No, profit is great... you're not, it doesn't seem like you're after scale at the moment either. What is the, what is the business model? 17:17 I think... I mean, don't get me wrong, we are 100% trying to be Gen Z Facebook. 17:22 Like, that will, you know, play out however it w- it needs to in the coming years, and we're not in any rush, especially how we've been bootstrapping, to, like, cut corners, and I think part of what makes the platform special for all of our users right now is that we've been very, um, like, I think just considerate of building this culture from, from, like, ground zero, making sure that this is a really solid, steady thing that we can stand on. 17:46 Um, but the business model, for now it's coming down to, uh, subscriptions. And so- Mm-hmm... you know, Silk is free entirely. You'll never get paywalled. 17:55 Um, but if you do want to, like, customize, personalize your blog a little bit more, um, and add, like, a theme and get, like, a subscriber badge, and then we also have, like, infinite cloud storage. 18:05 Not infinite, but, um, if you have, like, a ton of private media on the platform, 'cause a lot of people use it- Mm-hmm... 18:10 for their own, like-Media organization system, just kind of like, uh, your internet camera roll of sorts. 18:17 Um, then yeah, if you only have private media, that's not benefiting anyone, uh, on the platform, and, uh, you should probably pay for private storage. Yeah. That's... 18:27 Okay, so there, there's a version of this where, like, you're, you're, you're, you're monetizing primarily through, like, storage, but then is there also a version where... So it's that. 18:38 There's the two subscriptions, where you're monetizing through storage, and then monetizing through, um, the ability to customize more. It comes as one thing. Um, so you get one with the other, and it's crazy. 18:47 Like, we were like, "Yeah, we need to, like, pack this out with utility," and we are still working on that. But the, the throughput from basically cosmetics alone is, like, massive. 18:57 Like, I think 10% of our users are subscribing to that right now, which is crazy. Um, that will definitely dilute as we scale, but for now it's been, like, great. 19:05 Well, you weren't, you weren't really alive for the ringtone economy, but that was a big, big business at one point. I was. I had, um [laughs] watch it. [laughs] I, I had, uh, I had, uh... What is it, Replay? 19:20 "Shaunie" is like a melody. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Is that, that Replay? Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. That was my- Good one... that was my ringtone on my first little cellphone. 19:28 All right, Zayden, I have a softball question for you. How do you define taste? Um, that's a great one. I think it can get really, like... 19:38 I- if you, if you, if you take this, like, um, in a certain direction, it can really get rather classist, and kind of like, um, gross. 19:48 But I, I think really at, at the core of what taste is, is just, like, um, a definition of your identity through, like, the things that you like. 19:58 Um, and we want to facilitate that as much as possible, because I think a lot of people right now are not very conscious of what they actually do and don't like outside of- Mm-hmm... like, algorithmic trends. 20:08 Um, and so kind of trying to reinstill some version of just, like, consumer consciousness a little bit, uh, even at the most basic level of like, why am I liking this image? 20:17 Or like, um, like, why does this meme resonate with me? Or like, why is this song good? Um, those all embody kind of like a, a decision around taste. Um, so I, I'm, I'm, I'm into that. 20:29 And then there's this other definition of identity that my girlfriend just posted on Twitter yesterday. Uh, and it was like, um, "Identity is just, like, repetition." Mm-hmm. 20:39 "And it's doing the same thing over and over, and exemplify..." And she... I'm, I'm paraphrasing now, but, like, exemplifying, um, you know, th- this facet of, of, of something about yourself that you really like. 20:51 Your girlfriend's an artist, right? Yeah, amazing artist, amazing designer, um, photographer, all the above. 20:58 How does that-- how does your relationship, like, feed your creativity in, in the way that you've built out Silk? That's a great question. 21:05 I, you know, I, I think maybe to even go back on this one for a second, it's like Stanford is maybe the antithesis of, like, the product that we're trying to build. Um, 21:17 and I, I spent undergrad here, and so being surrounded by all these people who really are just not super concerned with that side of, um, I think personal fulfillment [laughs] in a sense, is like, it's a really interesting, bizarre thing. 21:30 Like, I, I felt like I was much more of, like, an art school kid, and I figured that out way too, like, too late into my career at Stanford. Mm. 21:37 So I found a way to, instead of doing, like, CS, um, get into, like, communications, and start learning about, like, digital culture, internet history, and that was how I spent my childhood, just, like, hyper online. 21:49 Um, but then also I took some art history classes, and, um, that was really important to, I think, just the foundation and ethos that we've built up around the platform. 21:59 Um, you know, and it, I think it gives us a lot of like, uh, a, a huge advantage over some of these other players who maybe come at it from a slightly more, like, business-minded lens, or don't have maybe the, the background in humanities to, like, understand how to foster the kind of culture that we are, um, and play into, you know, this user base that is, like, made up of basically entirely creatives at this point. 22:22 Um, so catering to them, making sure that they're ac- uh, accommodated properly is really important to me. 22:28 And then my background as well is, like, I, before doing this, there was a good stint in my life where I thought I was gonna be a fashion designer. Mm. 22:35 Um, and so I actually for a long time, um, not a long time, but, like, for about a year, worked for Drake, uh, at his creative agency in Los Angeles. Uh, and so that was, like, in, in his, uh, agency. 22:48 It was, like, uh, Nocta, his Nike sub-label; Euphoria was, like, produced there. Mm. Uh, he has a candle company. [laughs] And, um- That's nice... [laughs] yeah. And so I, I was just, um, 23:03 kind of on this track towards something that was a lot more, like, art and design focused in my life, um, a- and veered off, um, into, like, kind of infrastructure play for artists and, and creative people. 23:14 Um, so yeah, there's a lot of consideration that comes with that. 23:17 And, um, just back to Lola, like, that relationship, um, with her, she's, she's super great to kind of interface with and go back and forth on, like, are we making sure that this is actually aligned with what people want? 23:28 And, um, you know, does this resonate in, like, an authentic way with people, you know, who really live that? Um, and so far I think it does. 23:39 I was thinking about-- I've been, like, percolating on this thesis that, like, for the default online person, software subcultures are the new fashion subcultures. 23:49 For people that are interested in being default offline, which I think includes a lot of people who came up 23:55 online, but primarily want to identify themselves by what they do offline, hence the sort of, like, push back into IRL and events. Um, there is a sort of like... We talked about this with Casey Lewis at, um... 24:09 Uh, like, this come up with a conversation with this guy, Seb, who runs the, this book imprint called Isolario, which is the- these tiny, beautifully designed books-Um, like a re-nationalization of youth culture. 24:20 So for people that are defining themselves offline right now, young people that came up online, um, there's a lot more geographic specificity being inserted- Mm... 24:29 back into fashion after this sort of flattening of the digital driving- Right... trends and micro trends. And I think it's interesting that those can coexist, and I believe that they can coexist. Oh, for sure. 24:41 But when you're talking about your interests and where you come from, it seems like the early user of Silk is the type of person who would think of their software subcultures and their fashion subcultures together, and as part of the same impulse and the same expression of their taste. 24:57 Totally. But, you know, if the aspiration is Gen Z Facebook, how do you scale without killing the subcultural, um... I don't know. The word that's coming to mind is terroir. Texture, the subcultural- Mm... 25:15 uh, qualities of the platform. Yeah. So it's a great question, and that was one that, uh, we got asked a lot over the last year. Um, because what we've built right now is really special, and it's really contained. 25:26 Um, and it, it's important that it is that to begin with 'cause- Mm-hmm... we think of Silk as infrastructure for subcultures. Mm-hmm. 25:35 Um, and right now we have, you know, the type of users that we have is kind of its own subculture in and of itself, and a lot of these people, you know, like even down to they call themselves like Silkers, is it is its own subculture. 25:47 I think it's important that we've figured out how to create one ourselves while we build, you know, all these tools for a bunch to spawn and kind of like, um, inhabit our product. 25:57 And so we look to Reddit and we look to Discord, um, quite extensively for like just, you know, how, how we architect, uh, the platform. 26:05 And, um, that we have like a, a product, uh, a feature that we've been working on all summer is communities. 26:12 And so this is giving people, um, you know, their own forum spaces for like interfacing over and over and over again, uh, in relatively private like capped spaces. Like you don't want to be out in the open all the time. 26:25 Um, and I think that that is something that Discord and Reddit do really well, is, uh, they, they don't allow all of these things to kind of just like go viral and then, you know, lose potency and get diluted way before they even take, take root. 26:38 Um, and so when I think about like how you create a culture, number one, it's, it comes down to probably three things. 26:44 Um, and one, it's like shared spaces, so definitely just like a shared meeting place you can come to over and over and over. 26:50 Um, shared, you know, ideas, uh- Well, that kind of fits in with Lola's idea that identity is repetitition, repetition, right? So much of it comes down to that. Yeah, that's a great point. 27:00 Um, a- and then in those spaces, like, uh, you know, for forum, like you, you begin to share and like posit ideas, and I think some of them stick and some of them don't just depending on, you know, the community that you're participating in. 27:12 Uh, and then eventually probably the final form of like, um, that like kind of closes the loop there for a subculture is like a product, uh, that embodies a symbol of those ideas, and so whether that be like, you know, a shirt or like a song or even an essay or something, like some kind of embodied product that embodies those ideas that can then be like kind of memetically transferred. 27:35 Um, and so taking all three of those things into account, it's like with the communities we're building on Silk, anyone should be able to make a community, anyone should be able to join a community if it's like open. 27:45 Um, a- and we want to facilitate as many of these things to happen as possible, uh, separate from one another. 27:51 Like there's gonna be overlap, there's gonna be like highways between, you know, you know, say like going back to indie rock, there's probably a bunch of people who are gonna be into that community, and then probably more like, uh, specifically maybe there's like a Radiohead group. 28:04 Um, and you can imagine like a lot of back and forth there. 28:07 But hopefully like they can build separate communities and, and create their own values, and as long as they're separate, isolated, and kind of federated, like you can scale that forever. Mm-hmm. 28:17 When- How are you thinking about moderation? Oh, sorry, Francis. No, that's okay. You go ahead. I mean, because like isn't that... It feels like moderation... You could write 28:28 a almost like a group corporate biography of the major social networks and their descent that just like focused on everything through the lens of moderation as- Totally... sort of like almost like an original sin. 28:43 Um, these choices that were made about moderation early on and really kind of like determine the fate of the company and the brand. Mm-hmm. 28:51 And when you give people the tools to make a community, you're almost taking on some of the responsibility for how that community will interact with one another. Is that... 29:03 I mean, obviously at this stage it's less of a concern. You have like a really- Right... curated group. No, it's, it's something that, yeah, you have to think about it. Yeah, it, it's a huge, um, 29:12 it's, it's a huge question, and there's so many different ways to do it, and you look at something like, um, you know, Reddit, and they allow for like self-moderation in these communities, and we're gonna lean into something really similar. 29:24 Mm. Um, but then there's like a baseline like humanitarian, you know, kind of like yes or no, and, and that's always hard to set. Like I think, um, the standards can change a lot, um- The just banned words baseline. 29:36 Yeah, banned words- Yeah... banned behaviors. That, that gets a lot easier to weed out with like inference tech, like just basic AI filtering. 29:44 But even then it's like, um, people are people, and I think, uh, you know, people for better or for worse can go in some really crazy directions, and you need to sometimes be accountable for that and, and hold that in if you can. 29:56 So I don't know. Like truth be told, I don't, I don't know. It's something that we're gonna have to figure out really carefully as we go. Um, and, uh, yeah, it's, it's a really great question. 30:08 Uh, something I've been lingering on is you said that t- you said the term post local, which I'd never really heard anybody say that, and Daisy, when you were talking about default online versus default offline, there's like defaultOnline is a synonym for post local here, right? 30:22 And then you were talking about, um, you know, fashion subcultures being roo- rerooted in geography, and like this being kind of the opposite, what we're talking about here, about like the default post local person. 30:34 Um, but then when you're just talking about sub-communities within Silk and the culture of that, and like that being sort of Silk being the country where these, these sub-communities are then municipalities, and like the, the culture, the overarching culture that's then reproduced in, 30:55 i- in those sub-communities. I'm curious more about like the Silk users. 31:00 We've talked a little bit about them, and th- maybe they are the post local, but like are they, you know- Francis, the technical term is actually Silkers. [laughs] Silkers, excuse me. [laughs] Um, but are the, are the... 31:08 Well, are the Silkers... You know, I know, I know you live in New York. Are they, are they mostly in New York and like, you know, coastal cities? Are they all over the world? Um, I... 31:15 Well, how big is the user base, and where are they? So yeah, we have around 2,000 users right now, and I think, uh, when we... And then we have, like, 18,000 followers on Instagram. 31:25 So you get some pretty good demographics from that- Mm-hmm... in and of itself. But, um, when you think about Silk, 31:31 you know, first and foremost, it's like, I think, I think when we first went to market, like our first like probably 200 users, um, were quite like LA, New York. Mm-hmm. And that was anticipated. 31:43 But what we didn't necessarily anticipate is, um, all the people in flyover states who follow those people, um, catching wind of it from seeing- Mm... these people post about Silk on their Instagram or whatever. 31:55 Like, you know, like screenshot of their blog or like, "Oh my God, have you heard about this?" Whatever. Shout out to our flyover Silkers- Shout out- You guys... to the flyover Silkers. We would be dying without them. 32:04 Um- The real post local heads. [laughs] Straight up. Like they... There's some people out in Iowa, it's like, uh, I h- I've, I've had a couple conversations- Oh, the corn Silkers? Yeah. 32:14 [laughs] And, uh, they're like, "Dude, it's either this or go to the bar and drink beer." And it's just like- Why not?... you know, a lot of these people would rather be online. Yeah. It's a great idea. 32:25 Yeah, great, great point. Um- What are your... [laughs] How do you think about... Like, what's your relationship to Arena and Perfectly Imperfect and existing platforms? Mm. Mm-hmm. Um, obviously, your comp is Facebook. 32:38 There's a desire to be really big, maybe even bigger than the predecessors. I'm... And I'm not even saying like, "Oh," you know, "justify whether you're, why you're better than these guys." 32:47 Like, if you were gonna categorize things in your mind, like, what is the differentiation? Yeah. I think a really good analog for our product, it comes through looking at like a, some kind of combo between 32:59 like a Pinterest and a Tumblr. Mm. 33:01 Um, the blogging spirit and, and like cultural focus of something like a Tumblr, where you can afford for a lot of anonymous users and, and like this, uh, this very interest-based social network. 33:13 And then probably the UI side of like very, very visual culture, uh, a la Pinterest. And so we look more to them than probably any other, um, platform. 33:22 But I will say, like, when thinking about Arena, we get a lot of reference to that, and it's for a good cause. 33:28 Like, when Greg and I, my co-founder, were first, um, thinking about Silk, it kind of came from, like, the shared frustration with using Arena, of just like, "Hey- Mm... this is amazing. Like, this could be so, so sick. 33:40 Um, but in a way, they seem to like bottleneck themselves." Mm. "And I can't really, I can't really figure that out." 33:46 Um, and so a lot of our product design decisions come down to, like, okay, what if we took like, you know, maybe this core component of, like, how they use connections and how they facilitate, um, media and culture on the platform, but like really lean into, like, letting people socialize around that. 34:02 Mm. Um, and then also just making it a little bit, like, easier and, like, pop-friendly to use. Um, so yeah, we, we think about that a lot. So you wanted it to be a more social experience than- 100%, yeah. Yeah. Mm. 34:16 Like, for sure. Um, what about Perfectly Imperfect, though? Um- I feel like Perfectly Imperfect was built by, like, micro-influencers and their, like, locals. Well, let me... Actually, I, I was- [laughs]... 34:27 recently included a little bit about Perfectly Imperfect in a piece I wrote for Career Spotlight that was, um, tracing it as like this kind of archetypal, archetypal, like, uh, you know, on- like online to IRL flow. 34:39 Where it starts as this- Mm... newsletter where they're just interviewing their friends who, some of whom happen to have, you know, small followings, mostly people based in New York, et cetera, and they do that. 34:49 And then that kind of creates this culture that's rooted in, like, real existing friendships, that then it's easier to fold other people into that because these norms have been created by these friendships. 34:58 And then, you know, more famous people start coming in, and it's still rooted in that original DNA of, like, a group of people who do know each other. And then, you know, then they move off of... 35:08 It's this great, like, uh, you know, social platform to fully owned and even IRL thing, where then they move off of Substack, they build their own website, they build their app. 35:16 And then it was, um, this summer I think that they launched their events feature. Mm-hmm. And I remember for the, for the launch event, they had this whole thing of like, "We've got 50 meetups across the world." 35:26 And that's this very, like, you know, uh, uh... It's, it... Post local to, like, post post local- Dude, that made- [laughs]... flow. 35:34 That made me so anxious, 'cause, like, that's the type of idea I would come up with as a founder, and then get halfway through and be like, "This was a horrible idea." 35:40 [laughs] Like, I hope somebody was doing a wellness check on Tyler during that. Because I mean, I, I'm sure they deputized people in each city and- Mm-hmm... 35:50 kind of provided the distribution for that, but, like, I would throw up. [laughs] It's a scary one. I can't lie. Like, I, I haven't actually... 35:57 You know, I don't think I've seen too much since they rolled it out, and I remember being like, [gasps] "Like, what? You guys are rolling... Like, this is the plan?" 36:04 And then, um, it kinda makes sense, 'cause I think a lot of what you were getting at is just, you know, these people do cluster in these cities, and it is a good idea to think like, "Oh, yeah," like, "why not make it really easy for them to meet up?" 36:17 It's changing your product so much to- Mm... to orient around events. And, um, I'm not sure if that's, like, something... 36:24 I was actually just talking with, uh, Dennis Crowley, who is, like, the, uh-Uh, founder of Foursquare the other day, and he- Mm... 36:30 he was explaining to me, like, uh, like event tech a- and like Meetup is, is really, really hard. I would not like wish that upon my, my worst enemy- Mm... if he could go back and do it again. 36:40 Um, getting into like geolocation stuff. So yeah, I, I'm interested to see how that works out for them. I think it's like a s- a natural evolution of the product for sure, but it is a hard one. 36:51 I wonder, like, also thinking about how platforms like Perfectly Imperfect respond to like the changing nature of celebrity. 36:59 Like, I think what attracted people to Perfectly Imperfect was being able to hear directly from people like Charli XCX about the things they like. 37:09 But it seems like there's like probably a tipping point where it's like... Which maybe we're at right now, where it's like as a culture we're like kinda like, "I wanna know less about celebrities." 37:20 Like, I want celebrities to kinda go back to being mysterious. Like, if I have a Substack and Charli XCX has a Substack, what does that say about the hierarchy of attention, fame, notoriety in our lives? And 37:38 do I really want to be... Do I really want to be using these platforms in the same way? Like, the Perfectly Imperfect growth hack was asking famous people, then it gave the tech to recommend things to everyone. 37:51 Like, "Hello, you're now the micro celebrities." And then it's kinda like, "Oh, all right, now we're all micro celebrities." Right. And where... 38:02 Is this the moment where people start reinserting some of this taste authority? I actually think it relates a lot to, like, W. 38:08 David Marx's thoughts about poptimism, which was like we went so hard in the direction of like let people enjoy things and everyone tastes, everyone's taste matters, even if your taste sucks, that now it's like everyone wants to be like, "Okay, now bring back a little bit of snobbery. 38:23 Bring back a little bit of elitism." But nobody wants to like out and out say that because the political toxicity associated with that. What, what are you advocating for? 38:32 Are you advocating for like, you know, like you're saying Charli XCX shouldn't be on Substack, shouldn't be doing Perfectly, Perfectly Imperfect, shouldn't be doing Subway Takes, shouldn't be going on How Long Gone? 38:41 Like, and should just be... You're saying celebrities should be less accessible and go back to like, let's say, the Leonardo DiCaprio level. It sounds like you're saying that, Francis. 38:47 [laughs] I don't think- Well, no, that's why I'm bringing up what you were saying... I don't think anyone, I don't think anyone should be doing substa- Subway Takes. 38:52 [laughs] I think the season finale is- Real [laughs]... Kareem, The Rizzler, and MrBeast. They're in an open field. There's a single subway car, decommissioned New York subway car. We pan out. 39:05 We pan out so far we're slightly above the Earth's atmosphere. All of a sudden, there is an explosion. The subway car blows up. We see it from space, and it says, "This has been Subway Takes. Thank you for tuning in." 39:21 Subway Takes. And we never, and we never hear from them again. That's a little harsh. I, I will say, I was so sad when Yung Lean did one. Yeah. That was, that was really sad for me. Th- so Yung Lean... Here, Zane. 39:34 Let me put this to you in terms that you can understand. Me- [laughs] Me filling out a s- That's so patronizing. Come on. [laughs] No. [laughs] No, I'm, I'm joking with you. 39:44 Me filling out a Tally form to join Silk is like Yung Lean doing a Subway Take. Mm. You understand? It feels like selling out for you? It feels like selling out for me. [laughs] Well, I, I, I was- [laughs]... 39:54 he talked a little bit about this. I read, um, the recent GQ, uh, interview he did, and he was talking about how, like, you know, 10 years ago he wouldn't have been doing all this media. He would've been more aloof. 40:04 And I'm pretty sure what, uh, uh, I might be misremembering, but I think what he was saying is like, "I, I just kind of have to play this game now and- Mm... if, if, if I wanna do it," right? 40:11 Because it's, you have to compete in the attention economy. Yeah. Yeah. I think part of what he said is like, "No one can afford to be, you know, reclusive anymore." Yeah. Um- Yeah, yes. Yeah. Yeah. 40:21 He was saying, like, I, I... 40:23 He was like, I, he didn't say, "I pity," but he was basically like, "I pity," like, you know, Netspend, Fake Mink, or whatever, like these people who are kind of inspired by him coming up now. 40:29 Because for him, there was so much less competition, and he could just post stuff to SoundCloud, um, and, and people, you know, would love it, and the Fader would write about it, et cetera. 40:38 And now you, you do have to cover so much more surface area. We were sort of talking about this with Dijon on our episode with Adam Boyth. 40:45 Like, Dijon has preserved, like, this air of mystery, which is, like, pretty cool and hard to sustain. 40:51 And I don't know, I'm kinda thinking through this in real time, but like maybe what rankles so much seeing Charli on Substack is not that she's there and not that what she's writing isn't interesting, but it's sort of a reminder that, like, if subli- if celebrities have to excessively market themselves now because their, um, primary streams of revenue are not actually from their core art, what does that say about me and the way that I'm going to have to be conscripted into the marketing machine if I want to, say, sell a book or build a media company or, um, have my own fashion line? 41:26 Um, and then it's like we have to compete with them on the same platforms when, like, we feel like we should be allowed to not be famous, like... Yeah. Does that make sense? Well, then if... 41:41 I mean, but that's just kind of the ga- I feel like I've kind of come to accept that, and those are just the terms. Yeah, those are the terms, but I think, like, dissatisfaction with the terms is, like, 41:50 the way that youth culture evolves. Every, every new generation- Hence Silk not having visual metrics of, of likes- Hence the Silkers... and following Hence the Silkers. Hence the Silkers. Do you see- Well, the-... 42:02 celebrity backlash in the community values of, of the people attracted to Silk, Zane? Say, um, what do you mean? Say that one more time. 42:12 Like, what is, what is the relationship to celebrity and celebrities, um, you know, if you could kinda generalize among your community? We have, like, we have some hall of fame consumers on this- Mm... platform. 42:25 Like, I, I think that, um... So the average age on Silk is, like, 23. Mm. And, uh, these people are, and this was in the Discord the other day. They're, like, sharing their screen times.One of them was like 15 hours. 42:38 Um, but the average is like six or seven hours a day. And, um, they love, they love Yung Lean, they love Charlie, they love Blade, they love, you know... The, the list goes on and on, but like- CFCF [laughs] 42:52 They, they love CFCF. And, um, you know, that's, that is, like, unabashed. It's, it's... They're not, you know... 43:02 There, there's no sense of, um, it's weird or lame to be, like, a fan and, like, lean into celebrity culture. Like, we have a lot of, like, stan, stan-type people, um, on Silk. 43:15 And, um, yeah, I think, I think also what we like about Silk is that, um, i- instead of playing to the strengths of these people who have a productive output and are writing... 43:25 Well, this is not the first thing I should say, but, like, making short-form videos, uh, making music, making, you know, great images, or even, like, writing essays or something. Um, on, on Silk, it's... 43:36 You're, you don't really have to make things, um, by, you know, by virtue of how the product works. It's a lot more about, um, you know, just your interest in those things. 43:44 And so, like, if you're building another social network right now and it's, it's based around, like, a productive creative mechanism, um, which it has been for the last, like, basically since the internet started, um, that's a really hard game to compete in. 43:58 Um, but I think maybe 1, 2% of all people online are actually making the content that, like, ends up floating around. Like, I- We'll just- More platforms for lurkers. More platforms for lurkers. 44:09 So think about the other 99%. That's, that's our user base. Yeah. And, and they're really hardcore. You gave a talk on this at F- at FWB Fest this summer called Congrats, You're a Curator, right? Right. 44:17 And that's kind of the whole premise. Mm. Right, right, right. Uh, good call out, Jess. Sorry I missed that, Zane. I'm gonna, I'm gonna look that up on YouTube. Well, say a little more. 44:25 I, I listened to that talk, and maybe we'll link it in the show notes, uh, Producer Tom put it in the show notes, but tell us a little bit more about what you said in that talk. Um, well, I think the premise was just, 44:36 uh, trying to democratize, like... And, and feel good about your role as a consumer, and, like, thinking about doing that more critically. 44:44 Um, I think that's one of the biggest things right now is a lot of people have just been, like, lulled to sleep in a- outside of, like, a sense of, like, criticality of the media they're consuming. 44:53 It's like we got zombies at the wheel and, you know, it, I, I think that that's a very scary thing, um, especially for culture at large and, and subculture more specifically. 45:02 So yeah, w- the kinda, I think the, the point that I was trying to make was just drawing through, uh, and I think the words I probably mentioned were, like, drawing, like a, creating like a, a taxonomy or something [laughs] of, like- Yeah. 45:14 Mm-hmm... we have a couple different archetypes of people online. You have... Or maybe just of creative people, period. 45:20 And so, um, you have the artist, uh, who is, like, unconcerned with, uh, like, the publicity side and, like, the metrics, and they, you know, are... And this is, like, definitely stereotypical. 45:30 This is not every artist in the world. But, like, the pure artist or whatever is this person who is very, you know, tapped into, like, "This is my work. I'm not making this for a commercial output or commercial gain. 45:42 Um, this is just what I feel like making, and this is an expression of self through, like, some kind of, you know, work." 45:48 And then you have the creative, and this is kind of like shorthand for, um, like, the creative professional usually. 45:55 And this is, like, people who work on film sets and designers and, um, these people who have, like, a creative profession job, and that's how they make their money. 46:02 And it's like, yes, there's, like, an artful component to that, but, you know, the main driving force behind that work is often, um, you know, something that needs to get into the market and, like, succeed. 46:14 And then, um, you have the curator who's kind of, like, unbound by this stuff, and they're just on the other side, like, um, you know, processing all of it. 46:22 And, um, these people can also still be really creative and, like, we, we've actually kinda coined this term, um... I think Sean Thielen actually coined this with me. But, um, [clicks tongue] like, context creators. 46:34 So curators are often considered more passive, but then, like, a good curator, in bringing together all these, you know, different separate things, um, is actually creating a new context, and it is a sort of creative act, um, as well. 46:47 And that, that's a really cool way to think about the role of, like, uh, this kind of passive model and, and giving them a little bit more agency, 'cause it, it really is a creative thing to bring, uh, all of your interests together so specifically like you can on Silk. 47:00 And, um, yeah, without saying too much more about it, that was the basic premise, and just trying to, like, talk through the concept and share some perspective on it. Nice. Yeah. 47:10 With, with the curating bit too, it makes me think of 47:13 when I was younger and, like, in college I was obsessed with, you know, looking up music blogs, and every day I'm, you know, opening 10 different music blogs at the end of the day and listening to new songs. 47:25 And, like, I was like, I had to do this. And then I stopped once I started using Spotify in 2017. But, um, yeah, I think later on I was focusing on, how do I, 47:36 instead of doing this consumptive hobby that maybe it ends up in curation, but I wasn't really putting things anywhere, it was... I, I tried to make a shift to consuming less and trying to, 47:49 you know, get bored and, and create stuff, write stuff, paint, whatever I was doing. Um, but I think, I, I agree with you that, like, there's, there's this creative act in the curation, but I think the, the jump 48:01 that personally I had to make was, how do I get out of that? And, like, how... That, that was like a, a dead end or, like, a cul-de-sac I was stuck in. Mm-hmm. 48:08 And then I had to get out of that into creation as a creative act, right? Right. 'Cause curation, curation is a creative act, but it, it's easy, it was easy for me to get stuck there. Yeah. 48:18 I, I think it starts with, I think, kinda the rehab component of that, of, like, if you get stuck is, like, consume more. 48:25 Like, in a, in a lot of senses, it's, it's like, for a lot of people, especially right now, like post-modern whatever, it's go back and look at the archives and, and figure out what, like, resonates with you and just kinda sit with it. 48:36 Um, and so we- I love when Ruby tweeted, "None of my references are online."That's amazing. Shout out Ruby I was like, "That's really good." Um- Ruby's the man... but sometimes I do see my author at Starbucks as online. 48:45 First person to ask a question at your talk as well, I noticed. Yeah, Ruby's, Ruby's the best. I think I met him at FWB a few years ago, actually. I don't remember how we met. We should have him on the podcast. 48:58 You should. We should. You should. He would have a lot to say, a lot of good things to say. Well, should we do some rapid fire- I met him-... um- Yeah... like hot, hot potato questions for the end? 49:09 Oh, hot potato questions. Oh, God. Yeah. Well, I mean, we have some here in the notes, so I, I meant to ask- Dolphin, dolphin law questions? [laughs] Right. Um, first question, what's your favorite subreddit? Hmm. 49:22 Sad Boys. [laughs] The Young Lean, Drain. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Nice. Um, you're going to Japan next month. What's on... What's your, like, top three to-do list things? Hmm. 49:37 Um, we're gonna be staying in Koenji, which is a little neighborhood outside of Tokyo, like basically in Tokyo, but, like, very, um, from my understanding, like, 49:49 like alt [laughs] in a sense, and there's really good, like, vintage shopping, um, and, like, cheap- Mm-hmm... cheap bars and all of this. 49:54 So I'm mostly excited to just go hang out there, um, and see what we can get into. There's a shop called Domicile that I've wanted to go to forever, another one called Blue Room. 50:04 I think we might even do an event at Domicile. Um, so hyped on that, but yeah, I wish I had better things that were not, like, shopping. I'm figuring it out. 50:15 Shopping's, shopping's my favorite thing to do, so- If you guys have recs, let me know, please... I've never been to Japan. [laughs] Okay. Okay. If you're going to Berlin, I've got recs, but, you know. Okay. Okay, bet. 50:24 I'll, uh- Yes-... I'll pop them-... recs on recs for Berlin. Good. Uh, what's the last album that you listened to and really fell in love with? Oh, um, We Have the Facts and We're Voting Yes by Death Cab. Mm. 50:37 I've been, like, a nonstop on that one. Love Death Cab. You love Death Cab? I do. I- Okay, good... I, I, uh, 50:45 I listened to a lot of Death Cab in, like, you know, high school, middle school, but then I got back into them after Asphalt Meadows, that album in 2022, I think it was- Mm... 50:55 um, which kind of, like, it's, like, a little, a little... It rocks a little harder- Yeah... than your typical Death Cab. Yeah, I, I actually haven't tapped in with that one as much. 51:04 Um, I'm really hooked on the earlier stuff- Okay... and then, like, Transatlanticism. Mm-hmm. Um, but I... It was, like, a... 51:12 It was this huge revelation for me 'cause I, I've always been, like, in love with the Postal Service and, um- Yeah... 51:18 digging deeper into, like, Jimmy Tamborello's work and w- with, like, Figurine, and then off into the offshoots of, like, whatever the fuck else Ben Gibbard is doing, and I was like, "Oh, that's... He does Death Cab?" 51:28 Yeah. And so you open up, like, the Death Cab, like, Pandora's box, and it's just Ben on all these, like, really, like, similar beats but, like, a little bit more, like, rock focused. Mm-hmm. 51:37 And, um, I love the electronic stuff, but it was, like, opening up, like, a Ben Gibbard extended universe. I was like, "This is the [laughs]... This is, like, the best thing ever." 51:45 Well, he, he's also, um, Plans is my favorite Death Cab album by the p- by the way. Yes. He's, he's a big runner, I think, as are you. Oh, yeah, that's a deep cut, but, um- [laughs] Yeah, yeah, yeah. He... 51:56 I think I was reading about, um, his, like, yeah, his PNW marathon pursuits- Mm-hmm... if I'm not mistaken. Yeah, precisely. Well, Zane, thank you so much for coming on Taste Land. You guys are the best. 52:10 Thank you for having me. Actually, I have a question for you guys. Oh. Sure. Turn the tables. [laughs] With, you know, at, uh, since we're on Taste Land, how would you guys define taste? 52:21 'Cause that's a, that's a really important question. Hmm. I think it's what you like and what you don't like and, and, and the ability to say why. What you like and what you don't like. 52:32 So your ta- your taste includes things that you don't like? No, it's, uh, it... Okay, maybe let me rephrase that. It's the ability to say why you like or don't like what you like and don't like. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 52:46 I think it's the ability to create meaning with things that are external to yourself- Hmm... which is, I think, a, a different way of restating Zane's definition. Um, but when I was researching lifestyle, 53:01 and the big unlock for me was, like, finding out that in these really, really old architectural sites, that they could tell that the people who lived longest were not, um, necessarily the wealthiest, but the people who had the most objects adjacent to their, their grave that indicated ritual and meaning. 53:24 Hmm. And that was a huge unlock for me, and we sort of arrived at this slop definition last week, that slop is an artifact of culture that doesn't generate any new memories, that you can't really attach meaning to. 53:36 Mm-hmm. It just sort of lives in the eternal present, and you consume it, and you move on. 53:40 So if, like, the, the thing that indicates taste is the opposite of that, then it needs to be a repository for memory and meaning. Um- I fucking love that... it has to have a past, present, and a future. 53:52 That's so interesting. Will you link that? Will you actually link me the, the study on that? I'm really curious. Yeah, absolutely. No, that's, that's really cool. Um, but yeah, Francis, like the... 54:03 I think the discernment part is probably pretty key to this whole idea as well. [laughs] Mm-hmm. Like- Well, because there's... 54:08 I think there's innate taste, but then I'm interested in, like, the abi- I'm interested in the ability to say why you think that way, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Which I think was... 54:19 You know, I didn't always have that, but I had one particular friend in college who was, who was very annoying in that he would always ask, "Well, why do you think that?" You know? Mm-hmm. 54:28 Um, but that really helped me- There's one in every friend group. [laughs] Yes. Yeah. That really helped me develop... That really helped me understand, like, very simply why I did or did not like a thing. 54:39 And, you know, sometimes I realize, like, oh, I actually maybe don't like that thing, and maybe I'm just... maybe I just like it because I thought I was supposed to, which- Right... 54:49 I mean, kind of comes back to Silk and not having, you know, likes or whatever on it, which are a signal of, oh, you're- Exactly... supposed to like this thing. Exactly. Mm. Mm-hmm. 54:58 Yeah, that's like the you break out of the Matrix moment when you start asking. Yes. It's so simple, but that's, like, the entire curriculum of, like, art history is, like, okay, well, why? Yeah. 55:06 And it, it will lead you to some really fun places. Mm-hmm. Are you just pretending? Are you just trying to signal that you're, that you g- that you're in on the joke, or can you actually say why the joke is funny? 55:15 Exactly. And I, I think, without stretching this out too much longer, um, just [laughs] I, I, I think, like, it's often more important to know what you don't like than what you do like when, um, 55:29 when, yeah, pursuing some kind of, like, cohesive identity. 55:33 Like, it's really hard to define something that, like, you like, but then I think, you know, when you have that feeling of like, ah, I, I don't like that, listen to that and it will take you to the place where you're gonna figure the rest out. 55:42 Sort of like CAPTCHA for proof of taste. Um- [laughs] Yeah. That's good. [laughs] You know, like when people on TikTok are like, "Where did you get those jeans?" 55:50 It's like, if you buy the same ones, you're not even gonna explai- be able to explain, like, why you did it, you know? I think that might be the title of the episode, CAPTCHA for Taste. I was thinking- Oh my God... 56:00 Meet the Silkers. Meet the Silkers. Oh my God. Okay. They would love that. Well, end the episode right here. Daisy, they would love that. End it right here. They would love that. 56:04 [laughs] Listeners, thank you for listening. We'll see you next time. Silkai, rise up. 56:09 [outro music]
