Transcript 0:00 [rock music] Honey. It tastes just like it costs. We call object permanence object perme. You talk about object permanence in your family enough to call it object perme? 0:16 Well, we sort of have an ongoing joke that Ben doesn't have it. Of course, he does. Mm-hmm. Um, but yeah. You gotta, you gotta have that forgetfulness when you're a Spurs fan anyways. You saw my text. I- Yeah... 0:32 um, okay, so for those of you that don't know, um, Spurs have a new coach in a series of coaches, right? Ange Postecoglou, Australian, known for saying mate a lot. Multiple guys- Talks a lot of Spurs... 0:43 have tried to come in, turn this guy's or turn this thing around. I mean, the Spurs, they're just like, 0:49 they're the team that you have, like, Stockholm Syndrome with, and, you know, there's even an adjective for, like, fumbling the bag. Spursy. Spursy, exactly. And, um, 1:01 so yeah, they had, like, a pretty bad loss on, on Sunday, and yesterday I brought, um, my husband Ben coffee in his Spurs mug, and I covered up which mug it was. 1:10 [laughs] And then I handed it to him, and I was like, "Um, I'm bringing this to you to remind you that all things are possible, and you are not a loser." Just not winning a trophy. Mm-hmm. 1:22 But, you know, that's what it means to be a fan, right? If your team wins- Mm-hmm... all the time, are you really a fan? It's no fun. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think, I mean, we've talked about this before. 1:32 I'm, I think suffering is a necessary part of l- you know, y- you can't have joy without suffering. Well, that's Catholicism, and speaking of Catholicism- [laughs]... you know, I'm from Massachusetts. Mm-hmm. 1:42 And, you know, before, like, Boston was not a sports dynasty on every single front during my childhood. Like- Mm-hmm... Red Sox breaking the curse was the real vibe shift, and people forget that. 1:57 But then, you know, Boston sports was doing really well for a really long time, and so now they're sort of, like, not the underdog anymore, but- No... the underdog DNA- Oh, wait. Wait, wait, wait. 2:08 There was this meme going around. I, I don't know if it's a meme, but there was l- like, a tweet going around, uh, this weekend that was like, "Okay, Virginia's for lovers, but we need, we need a state for haters." 2:17 And I, there was three big quote tweets. I only saw th- maybe there was more, but I only saw three. One candidate was Pennsylvania. Mm-hmm. The other was New Jersey, and the other was, um, Massachusetts. Mm-hmm. 2:27 Which I think Massachusetts, uh, resonates most with me as, like, a hater state. I will say I did bookmark that tweet. [sighs] Um, 2:36 yeah, you know, it's funny, the other thing that was happening in Boston during my childhood was the Big Dig, and- What? I don't know what that is... I mean, I think we should do a whole episode. 2:44 [laughs] I was thinking I would listen to an entire- It's, like, archeology?... podcast about the Big Dig. 2:49 The Big Dig was a construction project in Boston that lasted so long that I think any Bostonian that didn't already have trust issues, you know, came out of this project with- Mm-hmm... severe trust issues. 3:02 It was a mess. It was ugly, and- Is this, oh, is this... Wait, is this the highway where they, like, did the underground highway thing? I don't know. I've really suppressed- [laughs]... 3:11 a lot of the details, but I just know, like, whenever I pass some sort of, like, ugly road construction, that something deep and visceral comes up- Mm-hmm... inside me from the Big Dig. 3:23 It's like, you know- It's very, like, DeLorean-esque, boring company... it's like my, my children have, like, epi- epigenetic- [laughs]... memory of the Big Dig. 3:30 And the other thing is I have, I think this must be a past life thing, I have a deep and visceral hatred of the Lowell Connector. Um- I don't know what that is either... I don't even know how to explain what that is. 3:39 It's just, like, a, it's a traffic pattern when you drive through- Mm... Lowell, but I think I got caught on it when I was a young driver one time, and got turned around. Mm-hmm. Took it off for hours. Yeah. 3:49 Lowell just is, I mean, Lowell's an interesting place. Anyway, maybe we do at some point, you and I can both do, like, a hometown episode- Oh, okay... where we, like, go through the lore of, um- Mm, that's a good idea... 4:01 where we're from. I think that would be really fun. But I did- Listeners, let us know if you want that. Listeners, I do wanna say I was really remiss not to wish, um, Francis happy birthday on the last episode. 4:10 Ah, thank you. And, um, I don't know, we did talk... We talked about how we never talk about restaurants. But if you wanna talk about where you went to for your birthday, or if you're over it, you don't have to. 4:21 I will say I went to, uh, Tolo on Canal Street, um, in New York's, uh, you know, the area formerly known as Times Square, maybe still currently, depends who you are. Or never. Or never. Whenever. 4:35 You know, roll your eyes. Um, it was pretty good. It's like a, you know, wine bar, Chinese food. I will say there was a duck breast dish, uh, with endive and a onion black garlic cream that was fantastic. 4:50 Uh, and generally everything was pretty good. Service was great, but a couple of the dishes were, uh, you know, uh, fine, but underwhelming. Mm. Particularly the, um, rice noodles in XO sauce, a dish I love- Mm... 5:05 at other, you know, New York neo-Chinese hotspots like Bonnie's. They do an excellent rendition of this dish. Tolo's was a little, you know, it was, it was just wasn't as flavorful. But overall, it was a good experience. 5:19 Um, yeah, it was good. The, the duck breast, though, was the really the, the most memorable one. Um- That sounds excellent, Francis. Mm-hmm. And how many cups of champagne did you have altogether? I had... 5:30 [laughs] Well, cups. Well, I had two flutes. [laughs] Flutes, like, glasses. Oh, sorry. I had two glasses of champagne. Um, and they were good. They were good. 5:38 Um, okay, one thing I wanna talk about though before our guest gets here today- Mm-hmm... is this article I read this morning in The New York Times called Gen Z Has Regrets, 5:50 uh, which I didn't, you know, open up the front page of The New York Times, I didn't mean to do that. They're old enough now to have regrets. I mean, it's unbelievable. They are old enough. 5:57 I think, 'cause I was look- I was, like, trying to confirm, like, w- how old are... I always forget how old Gen Z are these days. 6:02 I think Gen Z right now is, like, 15 to 28Is I believe the age range I had regrets the second day I was born. [laughs] Day after I was born. [laughs] Is that, is that Catholicism? I don't know what that is. 6:14 That's being an old soul. Okay. Well, but so there's this, uh... so this survey or this article is, like, 6:19 basically about some surveys that were conducted about, like, how Gen Z feels about social media, different social media platforms, how often, how many hours a day they're spending on these platforms, et cetera. 6:31 Um, but there is one graph in it that I wanted... I want you to guess some numbers. So basically they asked Gen Z respondents the statement, "I wish blank had never been invented." 6:46 And the blank, there's like 10 different blanks. It's all the major social platforms- Mm... um, also the internet, messaging apps, smartphones, Netflix, YouTube. 6:55 Um, [clears throat] the highest- Wait, I love that you're making me guess because you know me so well that you know I, I won't have read this. Well, yeah, that's why, [laughs] that's why I'm proud of it. 7:04 Because, but it's linked in the show notes- [laughs]... and you still know that I didn't look at it. I, yeah, exactly. And that makes me feel seen. Mm-hmm. Cool. 7:11 That's why, that's, that's why, that's why we're great co-hosts. Um, okay, but the highest ranked thing that 50% of people said, "I wish blank had never been ex- invented," what do you think it is? 7:22 It's a so- it's one of the social platforms. Instagram. Wrong. Instagram- Snapchat... was actually number five with 34% of teen- of these Gen Z's said they wish it had never been invented. Snapchat. 7:35 Snapchat was number three, 43% wished it had never been invented. A social media app. Social, um... yeah, it's, it's, it's a social media app. Is dating... are dating apps considered social media apps? 7:48 Uh, they're not on this list. Okay, okay, okay. TikTok. TikTok is number two. You're cl- you're just climbing the list. TikTok is number two, 47% wished it had never been invented. Facebook? Facebook. 8:02 [laughs] You're almost, you're so close. Facebook is number four, 37% wished it had never been invented. Twitter? There's like... Twitter. Yeah, Twitter. 50% wish Twitter had never been invented. Twitter doesn't... 8:13 but Twitter is the smallest of all of these. It is. So that's very surprising to me. Yeah. And I didn't think there was so many Gen Z users. No, I don't think so either. And, like, to me, I feel like most of the 8:24 issues around social media and aspiration are the more visually forward platforms- Mm-hmm... which Twitter- Yeah... is not. So that's very surprising to me. I, we gotta... 8:33 I'm gonna look into the methodology after this call. [laughs] I wonder if it has something to do with, like, you know, Elon Musk X, and, like, maybe before they wouldn't have said it. 8:41 Like, maybe it's this, like, the modern of the past, you know, one to two years extra toxic Twitter that they're talking about. But still, I didn't think they were on it. Um, yeah. 8:51 Yeah, it's not a lifestyle platform to me. It's... I mean, obviously misinformation is an issue, but, um, I don't know. 8:58 I feel like it would be surprising to me if Twitter's having the most negative effect on the day-to-day life of Gen Z. I mean, it's not really an... I've never really viewed it as an interpersonal bullying platform. 9:10 [laughs] No. Um- Well, well, actually, though, more and more, 'cause I, I- I've, like, seen a couple times recently, like, uh, somebody had posted a selfie. I saw, like, this was, like, three quote tweets in- Mm-hmm... 9:21 but somebody, like, quote tweeting somebody a screenshot of somebody else insulting a selfie they'd posted. Like, multiple people saying, like, you know, just really toxic mean things about it. Mm. Mm. 9:32 I think because Twitter is like... [laughs] On Twitter, things escape containment in a different way than Instagram. True. Whereas on Instagram it might get shared to the DMs, right? And people are gonna- Mm... 9:43 like, be mean and whatever, roast it, discuss it there. But on Twitter that happens as well, but it's more of like, you know- Mm... discussing it in the round. It's very surprising. It's very surprising. 9:54 Anyways, the other... 9:55 So I read this this morning, and then not half an hour later, you know, I'm going through my emails, uh, and the latest edition of Casey Newton's Platformer newsletter was in there, uh, telling me that Instagram announced new rules today making accounts owned by users under 16 private by default, and requiring parental permission to change settings. 10:16 Uh, which this won't go into effect in various regions until, you know, uh, January. But that was also really interesting, interesting to me having read this. 10:27 Um, and just that, like, I feel like it's so hard to limit that for teens. 10:32 Like, when I was 10, I was playing, like, v- video games where it's like you must be 13 years or older to play, and then I stopped playing them by the time I was 13. But anyways, um, our guest is here. 10:44 Do you wanna introduce them? Yes. Today our guest is Ty Haney. Uh, she is the founder of Outdoor Voices, and she's also now the founder of JOGGI, which is, I would call it like a, a wellness beverage. 11:02 It's a beverage that- Mm-hmm... helps you- It's a better for you energy drink. Yeah, it helps you with an active lifestyle. And JOGGI is integrated into, uh, 11:12 her other company, uh, Try Your Best, AKA TYB, which is a consumer rewards protocol. Um, it's technically built on the blockchain, but has very little, um, to none [laughs] blockchain interaction for the end user. 11:29 For the end user. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And they recently integrated Glossier into the protocol, which I assume brought in a lot of new people, so. Their biggest first day launch yet. Yeah, exactly. 11:39 So we're very excited to talk to her about that. All right. Let's talk to Ty. Hi, Ty. How's it going? Hey. How are you? Good. Right on. Good to see you guys. Great to see you too. Thanks for doing this. Of course. 11:53 [laughs] So, okay. Obviously I've been watching TYB, and I, I actually have all of my... I think I have all of my notifications switched on for the brands that I follow. 12:05 So I get emails-SMS, and then maybe not push notifications, but you know I'm like an email girl, so that works- [laughs]... really well for me. Um- [laughs] But 12:17 I saw the Glossier announcement, and I was like, I have to catch up with her because this is so huge. I mean, huge in general, and huge for, um, 12:30 me coming from the generation where Glossier just completely defined the direct to consumer beauty market. Right. 12:38 And Francis probably has fewer memories of Glossier, personal memories of Glossier, but definitely of the phenomenon. Um- Mm-hmm. Well, my girlfriend has a few, you know, of the pink bags around the house, so. Of course. 12:49 Every self-respecting woman does. [laughs] And so, um, yeah, I guess we... I'm just dying to know, like how did you start this conversation with them? Did they approach you, and like- Yeah... 13:00 what's it like to work with Emily and Emily's team? Yeah. No, of course. Um, 13:06 so it's funny 'cause I started Obvi at the same time as Emily with Glossier, so we kind of grew up in the D2C world, and I think both had similar kind of philosophies or approaches in terms of community led brands. 13:17 Um, and you could really feel that. It's like something tangible that exists, um, for Glossier very much today, and definitely did for Obvi. Um, I would say it's dormant fo- for Obvi, but certainly could be brought back. 13:30 Um [laughs] Yeah. Anyway, uh, it's interesting because, let's see, they launched in at the end of July. They've been fantastic. They were essentially made for a product like TYB. 13:43 Um, and so they hit the ground running, and very quickly were our fastest single day, or high- highest growth community single day, and then have, um, continued to really kind of grow phenomenally. Uh, 13:55 but it's funny because Clio, who's the CMO of Glossier, um, really exceptional woman, she and I met, um, in the Obvi days. Mm-hmm. 14:05 And I was looking to recruit her right before I ended up leaving to run marketing, and we, we very much had a similar, again, kind of philosophy on, on kind of the way that we thought brands should market and engage with their community, and essentially activate product to drive or, or really kind of reinforce this emotional connection to a brand. 14:24 And so got very lucky kind of as TYB became a mature enough product to start to be able to empower a brand and attract a brand like Glossier. I reached out to Clio and was like, "Hey, I wanna get this on your radar. 14:37 Here's kind of our view of the world, our view of the future of brand building. Does this connect kind of your guys' goals?" And it very much did. 14:45 And so, uh, we met with them, with Clio and the team at the top of the year, and then very quickly realized it was a fit, and then took our time really to design the game. 14:56 Um, that's what we call it, the, the ga- the Glossier game on, on TYB. Mm-hmm. Um, and so that, that was the walk up. Um, but really lucky to have known Clio from my time at Obvi. Wait. 15:08 So the way you just said the game, I hadn't... I've been like, you know, reading up on TYB and such, uh, this morning, um, but I hadn't seen that term any- anywhere. 15:15 But like to me looking at it, it's like I was very much understanding that like TYB is basically like, like it's a com- it's an, it's like a app and platform to like build community with brands, but like the core of that is like gamifying it, and there's these leaderboards, and like you're building the coin. 15:29 So it's like, is that like when any given brand is coming onto the platform, it's like about like designing like kind of the rules and structure of their game? That's how you guys think about it? Yeah, exactly. 15:39 And if I... In a brand building sense, there's really four things that come up for me, or kind of four pillars to a framework that you can design a game around. 15:49 Um, and the first is, for me, it's being very clear with your mission or purpose. Mm-hmm. So helping a brand articulate kind of the, the why. 15:57 Um, and then building rituals for activation, consistent rituals for activation that the community can really come together and activate, um, collectively against, and not that... 16:06 Or those rituals are often in support of that mission or purpose. And then connection. And so with TYB, it's really the first time a lot of these fans of a brand like Glossier- Mm-hmm... 16:17 really get to connect with one another, create or kind of complete challenges with one another, understand what other brands that, uh, they're com- they're part of the communities of, and so that connection becomes really this flywheel for engagement. 16:30 And then the fourth piece is, is incentivization. And so if you think about brands building community on platforms like Instagram or TikTok, for so long, like really it's more of a take relationship. Mm-hmm. 16:41 And so what TYB does is it allows brands to directly incentivize their super fans for taking valuable action. 16:48 And so that fourth piece is all about, through this game, automating rewards for actions that you as a brand find valuable. Yeah. Interesting. 16:58 How is the experience of building, um, a digital first startup compare to building a consumer startup with a physical product? Yeah. 17:11 I know like a lot of, um, assume a lot of the first principles kind of feel the same for you, especially from a community perspective, but- Mm-hmm... how does it feel to move into something that's just less tangible? 17:26 Uh, I love it, in fact. Um [laughs] To not have to be, um, overly concerned or a- actually like very precise with inventory of like physical things and widgets is a breath of fresh air. 17:41 And I like to say I'm a software to software, uh- Mm... CEO, which is kind of a fun and unique kind of evolution. 17:48 Um, it's certainly taken me a moment to like get up to speed in terms of how, the way kind of the coding world and software and technology is built, but I've been fortunate and, and kind of I guess had the foresight to bring a lot of experts in this space into the equation from a team perspective early. 18:06 So I've learned a lot. 18:07 That said, like, um, I love building, and so anything from zero is like such a fun experience for meAnd in anything, it's just architecting essentially this vision and then figuring out the team and the squad and the talent that's required to go execute against it. 18:23 And I'd say compared to my first go, I started After Voices at 23, I'm certainly a lot more data-oriented, but it's very much still this... Or maybe today I view it as this art and science or this dance. Like- Mm-hmm... 18:37 I'm quite driven by vision and, and in- instinct, and I think in a lot of ways, like I f- consider myself lucky to like feel a lot of conviction in my vision. But I'm much more, uh, 18:48 uh, I require essentially data and like real-time data right next to that to continue to refine. 18:53 And I think that's what's so cool about this digital product, is like all of that is in real time right in front of you, and the learning is just exceptionally fast. Mm-hmm. 19:02 So with, with After Voices you were like a first time founder, and now it's two at the same time, JOGGY and, um, TYB, uh, which to me it's like not a second and a third time founder, it seems like it's the second time founder at once. 19:13 Uh- Yeah... what's like... They, but they seem also very integrated, like looking at it like JOGGY was TYB's first brand partner, and it seems like they're kind of joined at the hip in this way. Um- Yeah... 19:23 yeah, how are you, like, what's the relationship between the two? How much separation is there for you? Seems, seems complicated. [chuckles] No, not complicated. 19:31 Um, it's funny because TYB started as a collection of brands. Mm-hmm. And so it wasn't a technology out of the gates. Um, and really kind of my vision was- More of like a consumer holding co for some of these. 19:44 Exactly, like- Okay. Yeah... with, with kind of an opera- how do we drive efficiencies kind of on the back end- Mm-hmm... and then have this portfolio of brands. 19:51 Really like the, the kind of purpose for this portfolio of brands was to maximize happiness through movement, and so that's very much something in my DNA and like what I wake up excited about. 20:00 And so that's how TYB started. It was the umbrella company, and JOGGY was one of those brands. In fact, there are four, and so they're little brands in a box that one day might be activated. 20:11 Um, but as we started to think about going to market with these brands, I realized there was an opportunity to create this owned channel where you could do exactly what you do at TYB. 20:21 And I think in a lot of ways the direct to consumer model's challenged in that for 10 years, and OVI was very much part of this, we could easily raise money, but then 30 to 40% of those dollars raised would go to acquiring expensive non-sticky or unsticky customers through an Instagram or Facebook. 20:38 And what I realized at the end of the day, um, was like brands do not own their most valuable relationship, and so they need a channel to like nurture and grow and make more valuable essentially those relationships with... 20:52 Traditionally, it's 10% of customers who make up the majority of your dollars spent- Mm-hmm... and 90% of your revenue. 20:58 Like, how do you tap into that group of super fans, uh, drive that obsession, um, grow kind of the value of that group, and then tap that group to help you grow? 21:07 And that felt like a much more interesting and sustainable model to me as we think about building brands. 21:13 And so that's what I set out to do quite quickly, and the collection of brands kind of morphed into this platform that then could be used by brands worldwide to essentially have or nurture and have kind of deeper connection with their fans, and ultimately create a better business model, which we call community commerce. 21:30 And so long way of saying, TYB the technology as we know it today came kind of second in sequence. Mm-hmm. 21:38 But we had developed this brand JOGGY, which is kind of a personal love of mine because I was drinking way too much Red Bull at the time, and it wasn't good for me. 21:47 Um, but the beautiful thing there was we had an owned brand to essentially kick off the tool and start to have a use case and refine the tool. 21:54 And just recently, a few months ago, we spun JOGGY out into its own company, and so now it gets its own resources, its own team, and can be off to the races. 22:03 But really my focus in running the company is very much on TYB. Okay. 22:08 I, um, I think, uh, we've talked about this before, but I think about the parallel problem in media, like in 2024 it doesn't make sense to have a portfolio of consumer brands if you're paying rent on other people's technology- Yeah... 22:21 even if that rent is just paid in engagement. Yeah. 22:24 Um, and same thing with media, like it doesn't make sense to have a portfolio of media brands if you don't own the technology or at the very least the community- Yeah... 22:34 engagement platform that they're, that you're distributing on. Yeah. And so I have a lot of respect and admiration for it. 22:41 And as you're talking and, you know, going back to what you said about getting the data even quicker when you're working- Mm-hmm... 22:47 all digital, um, is, are you seeing this sort of like 10% super fan dynamic emerge again on TYB, or because of the people that are self-selecting in, um, do the fandom metrics kind of follow new patterns? 23:04 Uh, no, that, that's a great question. So this first phase, um, of TYB is pretty simply replacing loyalty or kind of like traditional loyalty and ambassador programs, which to be honest, are really fucking boring. 23:16 You've migrated some brands, like their loyalty programs elsewhere fully- Lots... onto TYB. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, lots. And so our, in this first phase, like the way to drive adoption, um, is by replacing those. 23:28 Um, and I think like our approach is very much around progressive decentralization as we think about crypto projects. 23:35 We're almost doing it the opposite of most projects in the space, but it's intentional to essentially get the brands and the fans into the equation, into, into the ecosystem that will then start to pull them into more and more kind of crypto-enabled functionality, which is where the magic happens. 23:50 Um, but on, on the new loyalty piece, um, the coolest thing about kind of the model today is brands essentially bring their fans onto the platform, and so it tends to be that group of super fans who join when they see kind of rewards community, and we have that 10% now in a product or in kind of a environment where they can co-create, they can be incentivized, and like essentially they're-... 24:19 productively harnessed in a way that the brand can start to see measurable impact from that obsession, from that super fandom. 24:26 Um, and so yeah, it's that 10% for each brand that's coming into TYB, and then we're first focused with this game on how do we engage them in a way that makes them ultimately more valuable over time. 24:38 But it's also a valuable kind of scenario for the fan themselves. 24:42 And again, like, that reward piece, and a lot of what att- what attracted me to the Web3 space originally is thinking of this idea of ownership, not only in relationship, but ownership of things that I earn as a fan, and this ability through smart contracts to more meaningfully increase the incentive mechanism of a fan, let's say. 25:00 Because I've been a fan of, and a participating fan of Glossier for X amount of time. Mm-hmm. I therefore get kickbacks or royalties or revenue-based rewards as I grow my relationship with the brand. 25:11 So that brand fan incentive mechanism is really kind of at the core of what we're trying to tackle and kind of experiment into, uh, every day. 25:19 When you were fundraising for TYB, did you get pushed on the, like, why Web3 question by traditional investors? Uh, no. I mean, it's interesting. [chuckles] Um, let's see. 25:34 The, my first investor was Castle Island Ventures, so they're a crypto group. Yeah. 25:38 And I think, I give them credit 'cause they very much could kind of, like, see the future and understand why having, like, brand builders or people with expertise in consumer 25:48 in the crypto world, um, could be beneficial as we think about driving adoption here. And so Sean, Sean Dredge was our, our first investor, and he very much saw that earliest. Mm-hmm. 25:59 Um, and then I think some of the pushback kind of as we've raised kind of progressive rounds has been, like, yeah, this isn't crypto enough. But, like- Mm... we have three kind of distinct phases. 26:11 Um, and true community ownership where we introduce a TYB token as this interoperable currency, almost as, like, a new way of doing Amex. Um- Mm... 26:20 is very much the vision, but I think, I think it's shortsighted to, to think about our phase one meaning that we shouldn't be powered by blockchain, because there's so much, 26:31 uh, value creation opportunity as we get to what we call phase two and phase three, where we do start to introduce, introduce more of those kind of crypto-enabled pieces. 26:41 But, like, we wouldn't be able to drive adoption in the way that we are unless we looked and felt safe, um, and we're safe for retail brands today. Well, the, yeah. It's, it's cumulative, which is hard- Yeah. Mm-hmm... 26:51 to see in the beginning. 100%. Phase one. Yeah. Yeah. 26:54 When I was, um, so I, like, made an account this morning and, you know, went on to the, went on to the Joggy community and completed a couple challenges and did all that just to get a feeling for it. 27:02 And, like, having been reading about it for, you know, a few hours before, um, and reading about all, like, the Web3 angles, crypto angles, like, it felt very comfortable to go in. 27:11 Like, I haven't, personally, I haven't engaged much in, like, crypto Web3 stuff. I have a couple NFTs, et cetera. Yeah. Um, but I just haven't made the effort to get into it. 27:18 But doing this, like, it, it felt very, um, I don't know, seamless. Like, I didn't... 27:23 Like, when I've made a wallet before, a MetaMask, it was much less complicated, seemed much less like I was, like, doing something I had to think about. Yeah. Uh, which I really liked, and I thought that was smart. 27:33 But, so I read that, um, at least by the end of July, I think this was, over 100,000 new crypto wallets had been created through TYB, um, with most, with most users being brand new to crypto. 27:45 So to me it seems like that's kind of... You're, you're, you're not trying to necessarily bring in people who are, like, huge crypto heads who've been so deep in it for years, right? 27:53 It's more about, like, bringing people in in a way that, like, is just comfortable and safe, and they're not thinking about, like, oh, I'm, wallets and Ethereum, et cetera. 28:00 It's just like I'm just making this thing, and then they just so happen to be, to have entered into kind of the crypto ecosystem. Yeah. Yeah. 28:07 We've obfuscated a lot of, or all of that complexity, but we, like, the mini magic moments right now are, um, unlocking your membership collectible, which is an ERC-721. And so, uh, people don't need to know that. 28:20 Uh, but, but it's this digital essentially asset, you know, from a brand that I now own. It lives in my wallet. And that's the first instance, and so that's like the first magic moment. 28:31 For Glossier, it's this cool evolving collectible that essentially your collectible evolves as you level up and take more action. But you come in in the G Collective 01, and it's this little sticker pack. 28:43 You prob- Did you go through Glossier, or which brand did you go through? Uh, just a Joggy. Oh, Joggy. Yeah. Okay, so you got a Joggy doggy. Yes. But yeah. My blue dog. Yeah. Okay, cool. Cute. Oh, that's awesome. 28:52 But that- Love the Joggy doggy... that, it actually is funny 'cause in OV- in OV land, um, we have these blue Doing Things hats. Mm-hmm. And I think it's a nice kind of comparison here. 29:01 But that became a signifier of your joining or kind of belonging to the OV community, and your belief in this mission of Doing Things, right? 29:09 And so you'd see that on the trail and high-five people and be like, "Yeah, I see you." This digital version is a sim- simply kind of the same, same thing for brands. 29:17 Now I earn it, I own it, it lives in my wallet, I can share it. Mm-hmm. We start to see a lot of people sharing their collectibles. You can see at what point you joined. 29:25 Like, the pro- the concept of proof of fan is quite cool, and I think over time will become increasingly cool. Like, I'm member number three of Glossier. Mm. And there's now 100,000. 29:33 Like, that not only is bragging rights- Now I wanna check mine. [laughs] Yeah. The, the brand on the backend can reward kind of their earliest fans. Mm-hmm. And so, um, that, yeah. 29:45 It's an ERC-721, and then once you get in there you'll, you'll have known this from completing challenges, you're collecting brand coins. Yeah. And that's moving your status forward. 29:52 Well, so you brought up the hat, and this was something I was thinking about a lot too as I was like, as I was reading up on all this, is, like, the hat makes so much sense to me 'cause it's like a... 29:58 Like you said, you're on the trail. It's a physical signifier on the community that, like, you know, it's marks you as, like, a member of this community. 30:04 But then when I, before I'd made the, the TYB account, I was like, okay, well, how does the digital one work? Because, like, you, how are you showing this off as a signifier that makes you feel part of this community? 30:14 But then I guess that's, like, the chat rooms and the leaderboards and, and the, that level of the gamification of it is where it becomes a community participant signifier. Yeah. Yeah. 30:23 Your, your wallet and your profile become essentially your proof of fan or status. So it, it-... 30:28 is really something that, you know, from an expression standpoint, it's almost like what are the, um, band posters that you have in your dorm room- Yeah... whatever, years ago. 30:37 Like, your wallet becomes that, and that's something in the crypto space that I quite like, and it applies here. 30:43 And now, like right now, we see about 10% of people on platform like organically sharing their, their collectibles. Mm-hmm. There's no prompt to, there's no reward for it. In fact, you just have to screenshot. 30:53 It's not like a sexy thing to do. Yeah. So like this next phase becomes about shareability and like collectibles becoming shareable, collectibles with built-in kind of affiliate capabilities becoming shareable. 31:05 But the collectible to me is such an interesting, like, uh, consumer unit that ultimately is cool when it's tied back to a- an ID on chain, and within a community, like, has the potential to really, uh, funnel value to various places. 31:21 And that's what I think is so cool about baking smart con- contracts into these membership collectibles, where you can start to play with the incentive over time. 31:30 Me, let's say, as a OG Brown Joggy Doggy holder, a founding member, um, I might at some point, like, level up into the ability to be an affiliate for Joggy, just using this as an ex- like- Mm... for an explore. 31:43 Uh, and so that, having that collectible in my wallet would potentially have a smart contract that gives me kickbacks, um, based on my successful sales. So I've referred people into the community, they're buying. 31:55 That essentially value shares coming back through my wallet through the Joggy Doggy. Am I, am I being clear? Am I losing you? Yeah. Yeah. But it's, it's a contract, so it's automatic- Yeah... payment split. Yeah. 32:05 Like it's encoded. Automatic. It's, there's no like... There's so many weird, um, software platforms that came up during SERP that were just- Yes... handling payments for influencers. Totally. 32:14 And a lot of them are totally convoluted. Yeah. But Francis, Francis and I love playing guessing games. So Francis, do you wanna guess my G Collective member number? [chuckles] Your G Collective member number. Yeah. 32:23 I'm gonna say it is, um, 1,379. Uh- Higher. Higher. 3,235. Higher. Oh, God. You are so late to the game. 7,932. 32:40 It's 6,295. Okay. But I would argue, I'm still in the first 10%. [chuckles] Which is quite good. 100%. Well, I guess- Yeah... that 100,000, that, that's total TYB or is that Glossier onboards? 32:52 Well, uh, we were at 100,000 at the beginning of July. We're now- Okay... at 150,000. Okay. And we're off to the races. It's ki- Yeah... it's taken off in a really lovely way. Guys, I'm member number eight. Oh. 33:04 [chuckles] With a lot of rarity, uh- Okay. Darn. [laughs] Well, okay. [laughs] I'm still not a member, so I guess, [laughs] I really want to be. 33:13 Well, Ty, I was gonna ask you, so, um, people still come in through individual brands. They, there's no- Mm-hmm... um, general ty- TYB onboard yet? You, you can download the app and join. Okay. 33:26 Uh, we don't pr- Like, right now the priority is simply brands bringing their- Mm-hmm... fans- Mm-hmm... to engage. There, we did launch Discover in June, and it was interesting, prior to that... 33:38 So Discover, just simply like I can find other brands on platform and join if I like. Mm-hmm. Um, prior to that, 10% of users on platform were part of more than one brand, so very few. Mm-hmm. 33:48 And then the moment, I think within two weeks it was 37%. And so discovery's happening, like there's interest and, and appetite to kind of engage with brands in this way. 33:57 But on average right now, so the 150,000 people on platform, um, on average people are part of 2.4 brands. Mm-hmm. So it's, it's not like, you know, everybody and their mother. 34:08 Like it's brands that you're down to engage with in a deeper way. Well, which makes sense. How many brands on the platform total? Um, I believe 91, close to 91. Wow. I'm in three. Mm-hmm. 34:19 So I guess I'm kind of the- Yeah... right on the average user. Mm-hmm. Um, Glossier, Joggy obviously. Cool. Got that blue doggy. Mm-hmm. And actually for Joggy, member 2,725. Okay. 34:31 Um, and then I always mispronounce this, Dieux du- Dieu, yeah. Amazing... Angels Only. I got some wings. And I was pretty early to that actually, 1,541. That's amazing. Um, yeah. 34:44 And now you should share your wallet so people can see. I'll tweet it out when we share the episode. Um- You should. Absolutely. That's so cool. Cool. 34:50 Wait, so, so speaking about like, you know, people being o- on average members of 2.4, I think that makes sense to me because it, it takes work to participate in a community, right? Like that, it, it takes time. 35:00 You only have so much time. 35:01 Um, but I was, while like, like while reading up on this, I was thinking a lot about like ex- the balance between exclusivity and inclusivity in any given community, and how like commun- a community is appealing for both because of its exclusivity and because of its inclusivity. 35:17 And I don't know, I'm just curious, like in your experience in kind of community work, how you think about that balance and that tension. Wonderful. Yeah, that, that's a great question. Um, 35:27 and this is where the game creation becomes fun. And so it's funny because still your interaction on TYB does feel a bit like work. [chuckles] And a lot of our focus is like, 35:39 almost like to go into the opposite end of the spectrum and making it like super fun game. And so some of the challenges become more lightweight. They become, um, more like mystery boxes and like- Mm-hmm... 35:50 things that we like from gaming. Like you'll see that over the next few weeks, like that starts to turn on. 35:54 But this is set up in, in a way that you can invite anyone in, but they have to progressively, essentially pass checkpoints or like get through friction points or complete challenges- Yeah... 36:03 to earn their way into more exclusivity, which means, let's say, um, higher reward engagement or higher reward kind of perk opportunities. 36:11 And so in the Dieu community, for instance, um, only at kinda level two can you be part of the, what they call Exploratorium, which is their product testing group. And so it's designed in a way to be like wide aperture. 36:23 Anyone can join, but like you have to prove your fandom and- There's tiers. Yes, exactly. To be able to get to, you know, the sweet spot. Yeah. It's like leveling up in a video game. 100%. 36:36 Um-And then really what's cool on the back end is through-- this is an owned channel, so you have access to all of this first party data. 36:44 Um, and so brands can take, you know, psychographic, demographic, uh, status types-- status from like how many coins have I earned, et cetera, type data, and then use that across their channels to like get more specific in terms of how they speak and sell to them. 36:59 Mm-hmm. And then they can, we call it community commerce, but you have measure-measurability in terms of, um, TYB members versus n-non-TYB members. 37:08 So we integrate with Shopify, and so you can see essentially people who engage in these ways and then in certain challenge types, ultimately what does that do for them as a total value customer. 37:18 And so across TYB, which what's really interesting is we're starting to see strong correlation between those that complete more challenges being higher fre-hi-having higher frequency of purchases. 37:28 And so really what's important h-to me here, and just like what becomes really valuable over time, is how do we show brands kind of programming or engagement that ultimately drives incremental and higher revenue, uh, with more predictability? 37:41 So, yeah. But that's a thing you haven't had access to on the brand building side. 37:46 It's, it's essentially connecting like the left brain and right brain, the growth and the brand marketing, um, pieces, which is quite valuable it turns out. 37:54 [chuckles] TYB is like an exportable segment that has its own LTV and... In- Yeah...integrates with Klaviyo. Yeah, you can 38:04 very easily compare people within your community and not, and then, and then drill back into like what engagement... 38:09 For instance, uh, an example from OV, which was always hard to prove, but I did it because it was required, was what's the value, value of people coming to events? Mm-hmm. 38:20 And as we were able to connect the dots from a data perspective, and it-- we didn't have a tool like TYB, rather it was scattered everywhere, the data. 38:26 We found that if you could get, if you get-- could get someone to a second event, they were four times more valuable over time. 38:31 Um, and so those are the types of proof points or data vignettes that we essentially allow brands to now have access to. Um, and, you know, in many cases it's like, don't do that type of engagement again. 38:43 It didn't, it didn't do anything for us- Yeah...from a business impact standpoint. But it teaches you. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So that's the ability. Go ahead. 38:50 Can you speak to like, uh, like the, the deal structure with brands? Like how is, does TYB make money? Like how, how do you engage with brands? Yeah, of course. It's simple, um, or straightforward, traditional SaaS. 39:03 And so brands pay us an annual contract to bring essentially their group in here and then engage with them with the tool in this way. Um, over time, we'll start to introduce kind of value share opportunities. 39:16 So we have a feature going live in a few weeks called TYB Shop. 39:19 Um, and essentially it ports in kind of hero products from Shopify, but then you can also put community exclusive products that are only accessible to people in various levels. 39:28 Um, and so there will be a take rate on some of those kind of, uh, net new sale opportunities, as well as you think about digital collectibles and in-app purchases, that becomes really fun as we think about kind of the user value share or creation opportunities and how TYB shows up. 39:45 That makes sense. Um, how about- Oh, sorry. No, Daisy, you go. Well, I was gonna ask if you know the average age of the user- Yeah...on TYB right now. Yes. Um, average age is twenty-two. Oh, wow! 39:57 And it's predominantly female, so it's quite young. Yeah. And, uh, TYB, like, I think this is evident, but popped off in beauty. Mm-hmm. 40:06 I think for obvious reasons, they tend to be at the forefront of these types of tools. 40:10 Recently launched into the kind of the apparel and fashion segment with, um, or vertical with Urban Outfitters and a brand called Cold Kaya. And then- And Saje too, right? Sneakers? Saje, yes. Yeah. Mm-hmm. 40:21 Saje is an amazing brand. Saje is super cool. They just, they just collabed on kind of running groups or running events with Glossier. We're seeing more cross-pollination amongst brands on platform, which is super cool. 40:33 But we're also expanding into artists, um, and like talent, uh, fan engagement, and so Paris Hilton launched her community, Sliving Society, recently. Um, but I think what- Wait. 40:45 Oh, I noticed with the Paris Hilton thing, sorry, I saw I think on your Twitter, you were retweeting it, where it was like, uh, it's like the phone thing that is maybe the, the NFT that you get, but then like the more you engage, it kind of evolves. 40:55 Yep. And that to me was very like Tamagotchi, Pokemon, and that was like the game really manifesting in a like, in a more pronounced way than maybe some of the other examples I'd seen. Yeah. No, a hundred percent. 41:05 So Levels is a new feature, but essentially your, uh, collectible... Yeah, exactly. Levels up, evolves into a richer version, and then technically unlocks different experiences and different re-rewards. 41:17 And so it's quite cool. Like this collectible- Yeah...has the ability to gate a lot of different things. Um, and right now that's within TYB. 41:26 It also connects to Shopify, but over time, like your wallet and kind of your TYB wallet will be readable by v-by various sites. 41:34 And for instance, my, my status within the Sliving Society might mean something to Nike one day, right? And so that becomes really cool as we think about like the interoperability, um, of wallets and on-chain IDs. Yeah. 41:46 I mean, that's why I've been so stubborn about keeping- Mm-hmm...dirt subscriptions on these rails, even when- Mm...like there was like a ton of headwinds against it. 41:57 Because like a dirt-- you can have a media subscription that works the same way. It's dynamic, it changes over time- Yep. Yep...and, um, visually, and also like what you get for it. 42:08 And, you know, Web3 has gone through these boom and bust cycles, and when it's a bust cycle, everyone's like, "Just rip it out and- Mm-hmm...run the bar stool playbook." Mm-hmm. And I'm like, "But why? 42:21 Then I lose the ability to do this other really magical stuff forever. And I might- Yeah. True...not be able to do it right now, but at least this means I could do it someday." Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. A hundred percent. 42:32 I, I think our focus right now is helping brands very... well, in an automated way, Daisy, through the smart contracts, but then also just through the game creation, like-... 42:43 bake utility into the collectibles in a way that one day, let's say two years from now, could be sooner, um, I could take my Joggy Doggy and sell it, let's say, on OpenSea. Mm-hmm. And so again, like there's, there's... 42:57 it's this constant kind of consideration between what's valuable to the fan that pumps value back to the brand, and that's a fun place to play. 43:05 But I do, I do believe that a lot of these original collectibles or collectibles with status will be something that people can sell over time. 43:12 So, so you sell them and then that give-- like the buyer then gets that status, that level of fandom on the leaderboards? Exactly. 43:18 So like if I'm in the Rare Beauty community and level three, yeah, like I could potentially sell that, and then the smart contract could be set up in a way where a percent of that goes back to the brand, the majority of it goes back to that person who built that status, right? 43:33 And then a percent goes to TYB. 43:34 And so that, that splicing or kind of like ability to create or design into these different smart contracts I think becomes really freaking cool as we think about building to this rewards marketplace over time. 43:45 I mean, people already do this IRL in a lot more- Mm-hmm... convoluted ways. 43:49 Like, I think, I don't know if you've used this example before when explaining it, but Hermès is sort of a classic example because you can't even get access to buy the Birkin bag, or Rolex is another one. 43:59 There's certain Rolex watches that they just won't sell to you- Right... until you acquire a certain amount of reputation within the brand. Right. 44:06 And what that does is create a secondary market when people are willing to pay- Totally... way over just to avoid doing the status game. 44:14 Or like they go in, they purposely buy something less expensive that they don't want- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm... to establish a relationship with the brand, and then ultimately buy the Birkin. Yeah. 44:23 And some people do that and then just to resell the Birkin. So I think it's interesting. I mean, there's a lot of critiques that you could have about overconsumption- Mm-hmm... whatever, not thoughtful consumption, but 44:42 those incentives already exist in the real world. I think they're just a lot less- Mm-hmm... visible than they are online, and have always existed at the level of luxury. 44:51 I think The Cut just did a huge, um, piece about LVMH, like- Mm-hmm... power buyers and the perks that they get being in the front of the runway and all of that. 45:02 I think there's going to be a lot more emphasis and willingness to pay for access to things like events and experiences and not ne... it doesn't have to be physical goods, right? 45:12 Uh, like we already see that, like when Rare Beauty hosts a master class for their level three, it's like people are like, "How do I get in?" Like, you know, and there's like this fervor. 45:23 And I think, like that's an example of, there's certainly room for ex- like category extensions, but like digital experiences to be packaged up and unlocked by, by having kind of different statuses, uh, like we're des- describing. 45:37 So it gets quite fun, I feel. Um, I had another thought on that Hermès piece. Mm, I don't know. It'll come back to me. 45:45 [chuckles] Uh, well, so I know you just spoke a few months ago at the Information's Creator Economy Summit. Yeah. Um, and I was, 45:53 uh, uh, before I, I was, you know, I couldn't find like a transcript or anything of, of what you'd spoken about and I'm curious, but, uh, I'm... 45:59 what I'm picking up is like the creator economy angle here with TYB is like, as opposed to like, you know, on Instagram where you're, you follow the brand, et cetera, and like you're part of their following, you're helping, you know, create value for them by being a follower, where it's like here you actually are getting some of the value back and so that's the creator economy angle is like you become more of a like, uh, a part... 46:19 a, a recognized valuable participant in- No, I think 100%... the brand relationship. I think, um, in, in our instance, one, on the brand side, um, or our customer side, 46:31 uh, creators or talent or brands with an audience like tend to do very well 'cause they have a lot of people who have that obsession- Mm-hmm... and like want to be, um, prompted to take action. 46:41 And then on the fan side, I think of it in a lot of ways as like democratizing influencer. Um, and a lot of people like wanna go do this work for brands or, or complete these actions for brands that they love. 46:53 They haven't traditionally had the opportunity to like... 46:56 One, one thing that's popped off is like normal customers or like micro-influencers or just like people who don't consider themselves an influencer but might wanna be, the ability to access a PR box- Mm-hmm... 47:07 is like all the rage. [chuckles] Yeah. And so that's part of the... Like, I don't know, Francis, if you know what a PR box is, but like- Oh, yeah... 47:14 [chuckles] well, like, not everybody is obsessed with this thing, so if you can design the game where like, as you take these actions, you can unlock that, and like that's such a magic moment for people who don't, like, aren't used to getting in- like PR boxes sent to them. 47:28 Um, but it's the right... Like, it's cool from a brand perspective 'cause this is like a verified group of customers. Mm-hmm. 47:35 Like, they're actually buying from you, and that feels just, um, instinctively like the right people to incentivize. [chuckles] Yeah. 47:42 In a way too, it's like, when I think of like, you know, when there's like brands hire for like, uh, you know, campus ambassador or whatever, student ambassador for the, you know, New York region, whatever, like this kind of replaces- Mm-hmm... 47:52 that as like, as a job almost. It like- Yeah... you don't have to like go post it on Indeed or like on your Instagram. Like the- these, the TYB users are- Hundred percent... those people. Yeah. Yeah. 48:04 And, and you can create... You have one kind of universal community, and then you can segment it based on different roles that you wanna create. 48:10 So you know that like in our past we have our doers group at OV, which was like university ambassadors, and then we'd- Mm-hmm... have product testers in. 48:19 They were managed across all these different surfaces, which was operationally a shit show, but more importantly- [chuckles]... we could measure. 48:24 And so, yeah, this like gives you an elegant kind of universe to like segment different groups, but all like... and then desi- decide kind of the visibility of engagement and rewards. 48:34 Mm-hmm.And so it simplifies lives for brand builders in a, in a big way. Yeah. I was also thinking about like, you know, a community... when a community gets so big, that's like a champagne problem, right? 48:46 Like, you know, let's say when it's like 200,000 people in the Glossier community- Yeah... and it's like what do you, what do you do with that? 48:52 Because then there's like the exclusivity thing is kind of like compromised, but I mean, maybe it's just already explained by like there's the levels of it and so you just create more levels, and you create like sub-communities, et cetera. 49:03 Like, I don't know. I'm curious how you think about like, dealing with like the problem of scaling a community and how the exclusivity becomes more fraught. Yeah. I s- I think we'll still see like that 10 to 12%. 49:16 Hopefully we can get it to like we can keep pushing kind of that super fandom percentage up. Mm-hmm. 49:22 Um, but I still think there's like a long tail of people who just are loyalists who are down to like earn coins for their purchases, right? Yeah. And so I view it as a spectrum of loyalty. 49:31 Like, if I'm a super fan, I've downloaded the app, and I complete the m- the challenges, and I'm like there in every instance, like 49:38 the, the tool should work in a way for the brands that like when I need action, like against my marketing calendar or whatever the plan is, like I get the full force of that super fan group taking that action. 49:47 But we should also be able to support a spectrum of this loyalty where I just want the coins, I want, I want my wallet to show up- Yeah... on the Due site, and like- Mm-hmm... I'm good. Bye. You know what I mean? 49:58 Uh, our, our approach here though is distinct, and our... and I would say a lot of people push back about a- against this kind of from a loyalty perspective out of the gates. 50:07 TYB aggregates in, essentially all of your brands and rewards and relationships into one portal in. 50:13 Whereas a lot of people's prior view, I think we're starting to prove them, them wrong, was like loyalty needs to be white label. Then like, why would Starface, um, wanna be sitting next to a Glossier, et cetera? 50:25 But I think, uh, w- what's valuable again for that end user and having something like in my pocket where I can immediately get alerted and rem- remember that I have Starface coins to use, one day they'll speak to Glossier coins, um, that creates a lot more value than like having to remember to go to the Parade site to use my coins that don't exist or speak to anything else. 50:46 Yeah. Yeah. And that is the American Express model. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And it was always considered, um, you know, a feature and not a bug that- Mm-hmm... 50:57 you could have Lyft and Starbucks and Delta points or whatever all together- Mm-hmm. Right... and get into the airport lounge with the good food- Yeah... and, and also like if you think of 51:06 obviously you're moving beyond beauty or have moved beyond beauty, but if you think of the wallet as a digital beauty cabinet at home- Mm-hmm... if I open my cabinet, Starface and Glossier and- Yep... 51:16 Paula's Choice and whatever else- Yeah... they're all next to each other. And so I don't think it's ever mattered to the user as much as the brand about how distinctive it is. Mm-hmm. 51:25 It's more about like, is this convenient for me? Totally. I... That's a really good point. I'm curious, um, to get more kind of of your thinking here. 51:34 But in conversations with CMOs of the brands, like they are very aware that if you open, yeah, like the beauty bag of one of these 22-year-olds, it's like five different brands, but their favorite piece from each of those brands, it's not like- Mm-hmm... 51:48 all Ooh. You know what I mean? Yeah. And so it's much more like starter pack meme vibes and- Mm-hmm... 51:54 and I think they're like recognizing that and that's just the way that the user wants to buy and wants to have loyalty today. And so- It's also like super high low. Like- Yeah... 52:05 you know, there's all this like press about like these young girls going to Junk Elephant, spending a ton of money- Yeah... 52:10 but most people that I know, they have some expensive stuff, and then they have some stuff that they're not that loyal about, and they get it from CVS or Target. Totally. Yeah. It's this kind of like... 52:21 it quite literally is like collect- collecting, and like you're curation. And I think what's cool about TYB is it allows you to like have a way to show that, where it almost like mirrors what's in your bag. 52:31 So yeah, very interesting. Uh, we saw on Twitter that you read and really enjoyed the founder mode essay. Oh, damn. Essay. Yeah. Tell us about that. Uh, I mean, it hit a nerve for sure- Mm-hmm... 52:44 um, for a lot of people I think. Uh, in my experience with OBV, 90% of that, um, go for eight years was exceptional and 10% was brutal. Um, and I'm... like I can tie a bow around that experience and be like, thank you. 53:02 Like I learned so much. It's a masterclass. Like I'm so much better at this second and 2.5 go with Jagi, um, because of that. Um, 53:11 but I loved it in that I don't even think it's as much about founder, but it's about like people... like leadership. It's about leadership. Mm-hmm. 53:20 And like really like we got to let people drive and like have conviction and be bold and like stop canceling people. 53:27 And I just remember so many instances whether kind of in my past, particularly 'cause I started my company at 23 and I'm like a young woman. 53:34 We're like, you know, have this accelerating fast, hot space where we're, um, or pace, sorry, we're a darling in the space. 53:43 Um, and I just remember like from all angles there was a lot of doubt and like I kept hearing like, "This is the way." 53:50 And I was quite impressionable at the time, but I knew, I knew like instinctively like what had gotten me to five years in and like, you know, people loved the brand, like is, you know, in a way something I shouldn't depart. 54:02 But I found myself in a tricky situation where like I did become too impressionable and like listened to other people's views on things and rather than like internalizing that and like making my own decision, like would kind of like hear something and go take action too quickly. 54:17 Mm-hmm. 54:17 And so it felt, um, free in a sense or just like the recognition to like what makes a founder great and like what gives them kind of the ability to start something, like shouldn't be cut off prematurely, and I think there's too many examples of that happening. 54:33 That said, like the biggest thing I learned from the OB experience, which I've done differently here, is like brought badass experts and leaders in, into the equation with me, and like I've never been in a situation where the team feelsLike it's so much teaming. 54:47 [laughs] Like it's such an awesome team. It's like a sports team. Mm-hmm. Um, but I'm happy to go into more specifics there, but I, I would love your guys' kind of reaction to the founder mode piece as well. 54:57 I think to me it's about who is paying attention to detail at scale. Mm-hmm. And is it possible to be deal... detail-oriented and a good delegator at the same time? And I think that it is. 55:12 I think there's interesting responses around, um, are some of these things gendered? Mm-hmm. Could you do the same exact thing as a male founder- Mm-hmm... and be seen as controlling and not detail-oriented- Yeah... 55:24 or not a visionary? And obviously, like, you know, Sophia Amoruso had a great response to this as well. Like, I think the answer there is yes, at least- Yeah... in the public eye, maybe not in the consumer view. Um, I- 55:39 w- Dirt would not be at a point where I could afford to not be detail-oriented for, like, a very long time. Totally. 55:46 Like, we're still at the point where it's like if I send you some merch, like, that's me going to the post office. Totally. And I think a lot of... And, and Emily Weiss started the same way. 55:55 There's a lot of stories about her earning respect for how hands-on she was. Oh, yeah. And startups are like that for a very long time. But, um- Yeah... 56:06 I can't imagine not being interested in the details of my own product. It's just totally foreign to me. Yeah. 56:11 And I think that comes from being mission-driven rather than being a mercenary, which is going away because having a startup is harder. 56:17 Which is like mercenary is, like, people who just wanna have a startup, any startup, look for a hole in the market- Right... and then plug themselves in. Right. Right. 56:24 And it's like, of course this isn't interesting to you. [laughs] 100%. No, uh, that, that was... I dealt with that in kind of a very large and dramatic way. 56:35 Like, with Ovee, it was my baby, of course I was plugged into everything, but I kept being told that, like, when we brought the chairman in, like, there was a different way, and that was, like, such... 56:47 That was essentially the breaking point. And, like, when that, when I was, like, finally pulled away, not by choice, like, I knew it wasn't gonna end up well for any of the stakeholders around the, uh, situation. 57:00 So I, I know firsthand being in the details matter. Um- Mm-hmm. And yeah, I agree. I don't, I don't know another way. Um- [laughs]... but, like, it's just, yeah, that... It's obvious. [laughs] Yeah. 57:13 No, I think to me reading it too, it's like at, at a last job, at a previous job, I remember also a startup, you know, the, the f- the main founder, CEO saying that, like, you know, whenever he wanted to hire for a leadership role, he would first do that role for, like, as long as he could before he, like, went insane, and then, you know, then he knew also exactly what he needed to do, w- what person he needed to hire because he'd done it. 57:35 So it's like, it's about that and that, like, you know, covering all the surface area, not at all times, but, like, at any given point in time you have to have covered every point of the surface area. 57:46 But then also I think it's that, like, I don't know, that, like, theatrical leadership of, like- Yeah... 57:52 motivating people and, like, you know, when, like, it's, it's, you know, been a while since, like, the ARR went up or, like, you know, p- people are not motivated. 58:00 Like, you have to, like, be able to, like, conjure that spirit and have that, like, I don't know, like, j- create that energy. Like, to me that's kind of, when I was reading it, what I felt- Yeah... like it was about. 58:11 Was about, like, just, like, being, being, like, being the motivator, but then also, like, b- being able to be the motivator because you've worn every hat in the company. Mm-hmm. 58:22 Uh, and, like, that, like, to me was kind of the founder it was describing, right? Yeah. I think, like, the founder's the one, like, creating the original recipe for the Kool-Aid that people- [laughs] Yeah... 58:32 like, hope to spread around. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Like, um, and, and again, like, I've witnessed and been part of something firsthand where that's ripped out, and it's not good. [laughs] Not good. 58:41 But, um, that doesn't mean... Like, there's different roles that you play at different stages. Like, totally eyes wide open to that. And again, it's like, it is a te- it is a team thing. 58:51 Um, but I think the moment you have too many people in there potentially, like, brought in by other people than, than the founders themselves, like, you get this weird dynamic where there's, like, people who, like, came for the original vision and kind of, like, culture created, and there's, like, quirks and weirdness to it, but that's what makes it really sticky, and, like, people fall in love with it. 59:13 And then you almost have, at, at least in my experience, had people that, like, the board came to consensus on who needed to be in there, and, like, was a big manager from, like, a fancy company. 59:23 But they're, like, resistant to, particularly in my case, like, a young woman as their boss that, like, does things in a particular way. 59:31 But, like, that, that friction and that rub, like, it needs to come together or you don't end up in a, in a good place. 59:37 And I think ultimately, like, the other thing I've gotten a lot better at, which I had no clue would be part of the game, is, like, politics. Mm-hmm. 59:46 And my first go, like, I did not spend time warming relations, r- relations with my board, but, like, that ultimately, like, came to a bad head. [laughs] And so I'm a lot more 59:59 cognizant and thoughtful and just, like, I spend a lot more time with the people I don't like, and, like- Mm-hmm... flip that and find ways to flip that, and it's part of the job. 1:00:09 It's probably my least favorite part of the job, but here we are. It is a luxury. Yeah, I mean, a lot of people say, like... [laughs] It is a luxury. 1:00:14 A lot of people say great startups are like cults, which is kind of like where that Kool-Aid thing comes in. But it's also like- Mm-hmm... 1:00:19 people forget that at, in the beginning, a startup, no matter how big the vision is, is really like a small business as well. Yeah. 1:00:27 And but unlike other small businesses where you're like, "This is a coffee shop, and it will always be a coffee shop," and it's sort of contained within that aspiration. Like, you don't really earn the ability to, like, 1:00:41 relax once the business plateaus. Like, you only earn into bigger problems and the right to keep going. Yeah. Like, your reward for surviving the hardest things is you just get to keep-Going and do a harder thing. Yeah. 1:00:57 Yeah. And, um, I mean, everything-- having a small business and having a startup, obviously I have a ton of respect, and I have more respect for literally any business on the street- Yeah... now, um, because of that. 1:01:11 Um- Totally... but there's this... Yeah, like playing the game, whatever. Like, people talk a lot of... 1:01:21 I mean, Paul Graham's a great communicator and essayist, but I would say most communication about what a startup is is not at the level of his communication. It's a lot of like- Yeah... 1:01:29 bullshit that people spew on Twitter- Mm-hmm... as all a fancy way of saying that they run a small business and- Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm... 1:01:37 um, that they spend most of their time just trying to survive, and I always respect people that are more honest about that because, um- Totally. 1:01:45 Well, Ty, I think I read that you said you want, like this time around, you want to build much more slower, more sustainable, less like chasing that scale really quickly, right? Um, I would say I have... 1:02:01 Here, a few, a few things in reaction to that. Same ambition. I'm obviously more learned and understand kind of what the risks are and hopefully where my blind spots are. Mm-hmm. 1:02:13 Um, I think one thing I prior-prioritize in a big way, which I didn't understand before, is like, like socializing what winning looks like, and then for me- Mm-hmm... winning looks like optionality. 1:02:23 And so like designing my... Well, designing the company, like my position within it, et cetera, to like have optionality. Like, we wanna be built to like have an exit, you know- Mm-hmm... 1:02:34 in three years if that, if that is what winning looks like to this group. But then also, like take a big swing. And like in my past, I'd be like, "I'm going after Nike," and like- [laughs]... 1:02:44 like at all costs, which is awesome, but then like I didn't have, I didn't have the visibility to like understand what could go wrong- Yeah... and like how, uh, you could have de-risked that potentially. 1:02:56 Uh, that said, again, to kind of like our first point, like building in the software space, like scale can happen much more quickly. Um, and so I wouldn't say it's about going slower- Mm-hmm... 1:03:06 it's just about being a lot more thoughtful, uh, and de-risked in the approach while also no less ambitious. 1:03:15 And then I also just from a personal, like what am I focused on perspective, [laughs] um, I have a chip on my shoulder in the best way 'cause OV had all of the ingredients to be like fucking awesome. 1:03:25 Um, it's make money and have fun, and those things- [laughs]... hand in hand. Like, that is literally like on my computer what I talk, what I say every day, "Make money, have fun." 1:03:33 Like that combo of things sounds perfect. Um- No, that's perfect. [laughs] But as you can tell, 1:03:38 it'd be hard for me not to like want to swing big, but that op- like, uh, designing kind of different levels of optionality into what winning looks like is really kind of how I think about it now. That's perfect. 1:03:47 I think that's a perfect place to end this too, make money, have fun. Yeah. Uh-huh. Um, check out tyb.xyz. Anything else you wanna plug? Uh, we have a massive launch going live tomorrow. 1:03:58 I assume this will, um- This will be out tomorrow. Seven AM Eastern Standard Time. Oh, that's tomorrow? Yeah. Yeah. Oh my gosh. How cool. Um, let's see. It goes live at eight AM. Anyway, um- Like, it'll be out. Perfect. 1:04:10 Okay. Rare Beauty is launching-- They're expanding their world, quite literally, with, um, their launch of Rare World. And so they started with an ambassador community called Besties. It was closed, so not public. 1:04:21 People... It wasn't open, and people couldn't join. Um, and now it expands to the public. Um, and Selena herself is, has a video and kind of invite to the group to kind of set expectations and welcome people in. 1:04:35 So it's very exciting. I think it'll be our biggest launch yet. Awesome. That's amazing. Congratulations, Ty. Check it out. This has been Tasteland with Desi Aliado, Frances Zierer, and Ty Haney. We'll see you next week. 1:04:48 [upbeat music] Honey. It tastes just like it costs. Ooh. Honey.
