Transcript 0:00 You are somebody who has a lot of shame associated with the line, with waiting in line yourself, with other people waiting in line. It's not shame, it's a primitive survival mechanism, but that's fine. Primitive... 0:10 I, I don't know what that means. [laughs] Who would wanna be a sitting duck on the streets of New York? [upbeat music] Welcome to Tasteland. I am your co-host, Francis Zehr. And I'm Daisy Alero. 0:25 Daisy, why are we talking about lines? I've been seeing it in many places. This line culture isn't really a new thing, as everybody we spoke to for this episode said, but we're in this, like, moment of coverage. 0:40 Well, I had been seeing it more and more, but I was also thinking a lot about reservation culture- Hmm... 0:44 and how I feel like they're part of the same status seeking that goes hand in hand, even when they feel mutually exclusive. Yeah. The more reservations you offer, theoretically you have, should have a shorter line. 0:54 The fewer reservations, you have a longer line. But I think there's a lot of situations where people are either in a digital line because they're rushing to reserve something online- Yeah... 1:05 uh, or they're in a physical line, and they're sort of trying to reframe the experience in a way that doesn't feel humiliating, like calling it a third space, which is, of course, another big trend to talk about right now in culture. 1:16 I love third spaces. Noted. [laughs] We were thinking a lot about restaurants when we were booking our guests for this, but in the meantime, like, The Odyssey came out, and there was a lot of queuing for movie tickets. 1:30 I would say, Francis, would you say that waiting online feels good in a place like this? [laughs] I... Okay. [laughs] I would say that. Little taste of your own medicine. And it tastes bitter and acrid. Acrid. Acrid. 1:44 Okay, I will introduce Frankie. 1:46 Frankie Knapp is a staff writer at Eater and an award-winning writer with bylines in GQ, Vice, the Daily Beast, and other publications, and again, most relevant for this conversation, author of a recent piece on the industry, the business of getting other people to wait in line for you. 2:05 I actually don't l- mind a line wait, but that's my strange addiction. 2:09 And for this episode, I spoke one-on-one with Jake Leiber, who is the chef and owner of Chez Ma Tante in Greenpoint, Brooklyn, and formerly a partner of The Wythe Hotel and founder of Le Crocodile. 2:21 He's been cooking in New York City for nearly 20 years now, and yes, we did talk about Anthony Bourdain. [laughs] When I started cooking, like, 20 years ago, which is crazy to say now, it was pretty archaic. 2:31 We also spoke with Brian Wagner, who is the founder of Spot, an invite-only restaurant booking app that uses AI agents to immediately book tables across all the major restaurant booking services, so Resy, uh, OpenTable, SevenRooms. 2:48 I am pretty anti-line. I don't know if this is, like, a personality flaw or something. I'm always just, like, embarrassed to be in a line. 2:54 One person who we did not speak to for this episode, but whose fingerprints are all over this episode, is Ben Leventhal, former guest of the pod, founder of first Eater, then Resy, and now Blackbird. 3:06 [laughs] I thought you were gonna reference the meme where it's, like, a couple making out, and like, one of them is like, "I love restaurants," the other one's like, "I love restaurants," and then Ben Leventhal's just, like, in the sky, and it's like, "Isn't there someone you forgot to ask?" 3:17 Yeah. [laughs] Oh, good stuff. Okay. We should talk to our guests a bit. Frankie, your story was published on July 9th. Four days later in Curbed, there was another story about this by Brock Colyar. 3:29 We are doing a podcast about this topic right now, just a couple weeks after that. Why do you think there's such an interest in this right now? Did you pitch this, or were you assigned this? 3:38 This was something I, I did pitch, and I just... as a person who lives in New York, I h- was seeing it. I see it all the time. And I also am waiting in lines all the time. 3:52 I think there's kind of a deliciousness to getting deeper into the line-waiting ecosystem that is also really attractive to me as a journalist. I think it's, it's a bit like seeing people at an airport, you know? 4:05 Like, their, their most intense sides come out, and there's this idea that you're g- you're kind of peeling back layers of, of what we all want when you're waiting in the line. 4:14 In preparing for this, I was trying to think, like, what lines are about, in as much as, as they can be about any one thing. There's a lot of line discourse right now. 4:24 Like you said, there's a lot of different publications writing about why we're waiting in line and why we're talking about waiting in line. 4:29 Some of them are saying, "Oh my gosh, third spaces," which is unfortunately true. I've made friends waiting in line. Me too. Although now the, the critique people give is, like, "Well, you're in line. 4:40 All these people, they're on their phone, you know? They're not exactly, like, braiding each other's hair as they're waiting to get their cronut or, you know, dot cake." 4:47 The best answer I can get is that they're just about status and whatever that means for the person waiting or the person who wants to wait in line. Yeah. 4:56 I mean, I think they used to be about community, and I think now there is that aspect of it because you're all people who are interested in supporting a certain business. 5:06 But before social media and before we were also, you know, monetizing waiting in line, it used to just be about love of the game, love of the pizza, love of the midnight Lord of the Rings premiere, you know? 5:20 And I do wonder if we've lost some of that. So I'd say, honestly, I mean, the, probably the only place that I really do wait in, like, uh... 5:31 it's like, I wouldn't call it even a line, although it kind of is, is actually waiting for Kyklades, which is just, like, a Greek taverna in Astoria. 5:39 I'll wait because it's- that's just part of the, the culture of that restaurant is, like, hanging out outside with all the other people who are kinda waiting. 5:48 It's not in a line, 'cause obviously, like- They'll come grab you or they'll call you. You can go to a bar and they'll call you, and it's fine. 5:55 Or, like, sometimes we'll do, like, if I'm with the kids, like, we'll, we'll go get dessert first at, like, Martha's or whatever, Martha's Bakery, like a block away, and then we'll, we'll go in. 6:04 But that's probably, like, the most I'll wait or the most I've waited recently. I, I literally can't tell you the last time I stood in a line that wasn't, like, security checkout at the airport. 6:14 But I don't get out as much as, like, a lot of people. I don't exist, like, in the same... I don't wanna say in the same world, but I just, I just don't. My days and my hours are so different. 6:22 And honestly, since having kids, like, my, my life is so drastically different than being someone who has, like, time. [chuckles] A- as mu- as much as it sucks to say it, I just don't have time. 6:32 I feel like a sucker whenever I'm waiting for anything, and I feel like also, like, it's kind of like, especially in a city like New York, it's like there are places that are, like, equally good or better, and just, like, it's my personal failure that I, like, can't find them, and so I'm, like, stuck in this line with everybody else. 6:49 And so I don't think I've waited in a line recently. I've walked by a lot of lines. I've walked by a bunch of the West Village Froyo lines. I live not too far from, like, Radio Bakery in Green Point. 6:59 I have almost gotten in that line a few times, and I just, I can't do it. Can you give us a brief overview of the line-waiting business as you understand it after writing your piece? Sure. 7:11 I think it's a business that has existed for as long as people have been waiting in lines, which is maybe forever. But in New York specifically, which is such a line-heavy city- Hmm... 7:26 this really popped off, like, 15 years ago with Robert Samuel, who founded Same Old Line Dudes. I believe Old Line- That's kind of a colloquialism, same old. There's O-L-E. Same, Same Old, apostrophe. 7:38 Yeah, it's, like, some great Knott's Berry Farm style branding. Um, he's fabulous. He loves his work. 7:44 When I called him to ask him how it all got started, he was actually on his way to a pickup and a delivery, like, just- Hmm... number one hustler. And he said, "Listen, it started with actually the iPod. 7:55 When that came out, the lines were so crazy." 7:58 And I think as we've also started to have just more visibility in the onlineness of life, you know, it, it has just become increasingly popular, and especially in the gig economy- Yeah... 8:10 because now you have these competitors coming in from TaskRabbit and Craigslist. So Same Old Line Dudes, they charge $25 an hour minimum, which is actually 50... 8:21 Even if it takes less than two hours, they o- they, they charge for two hours. There are some up charges. I think it's, like, $3 an hour extra if they're waiting in rain, that kind of thing. Uh-huh. 8:29 And then on TaskRabbit, the price that you saw was a very large range, $28 to $90. 8:35 Compared to more typical restaurant work, I know this, they, you know, these line waitings are, could also be for sneakers or Broadway shows, whatever, but I'm kinda pegging it in my mind to restaurant work. 8:45 How would you rate these prices? Like, is this a good, decent deal for either the service provider or the customer? 8:53 Gosh, I think that's such a hard question to answer in some ways because I really think about who is doing these services, and it really is tourists, influencers, folks who have some kind of special occasion. 9:10 Old Line Dudes gave the example of sourcing cronuts for the purpose of impressing a bunch of Japanese businessmen who were in town. 9:17 This company was like, "We really wanna dazzle them, so let's send out six folks to wait in line," because also you can only get so many cronuts per order. I mean, it's like a 500% markup. 9:28 Not to be like the wealth divide, bring out the guillotine, but for as long as people have wanted to try and taste things, there have been those who are hired or paid to wait to provide it for them. 9:40 There's a line of, again, from Samuel in your piece. He said, "The Dot Cakes are the hot item right now in NYC. We had a customer who wanted two of every flavor, so she hired five line sitters." 9:52 So that's $11 per Dot Cake and $50 minimum per line sitter. So I don't know how many flavors that is, but that's hundreds of dollars for these $11 Dot Cakes. It's a lot. It's a extreme markup. 10:08 I mean, we know it's never gonna taste as, as good as, as that. Uh, may- maybe it is for someone and I'm completely wrong. That's n- also entirely possible. Yeah. 10:16 But, you know, it's the age-old lesson that it's the journey, not the destination. It's... 10:21 Although maybe the, the post is the destination, and that's worth it enough if you're getting enough clicks and views and staying part of the conversation. Yeah. But it feels, um, it does feel a bit wasteful 10:35 potentially, you know, if, if no one's consuming them. It, it does have that kind of 10:42 icky, icky residue, but, but maybe this person ate all those Dot Cakes and absolutely loved them or got them for another boardroom of people. Um, who knows? Wait, wait, I'm gonna read something from your article. 10:55 "Top restaurant requests for Same Old Line Dudes include Italian and pizza places like Via Carota, Lucali, and Emilio's Ballato. But Samuel says that not every restaurant is welcoming of his line sitters. 11:04 'I don't wanna name any names,' he tells Eater, 'but there is a very in-demand steakhouse in the West Village that has been giving us pushback.' 11:11 It feels like an odd move to Samuel, who sees it as no different from somebody sending their secretary to go put a name down or a mom sending her younger, more able-bodied son to put a name down for them later." 11:21 Which to me, like, I agree with him. I think the only difference is that his service is actually just making it more accessible to people without, you know, so to speak, secretaries and able-bodied sons. Sure, yeah. 11:32 I'm very pro the, the line-sitting gig economy. I think get your bag, you know? Yeah. 11:39 I will say that after looking at images of this particular company, they are there in, like, bright yellow shirts with their board saying, "Same Old Line Dudes," you know, "Come and, come and get it." 11:49 I would have thought that they would be in, like, sort of disguise. I mean, I think it's also kind of genius marketing on his behalf to be like, "Who else wants to hire me? You're all waiting in this line too. 11:59 You could have hired me." And, you know, as far as an hourly rate goes, it's pretty good. Yeah. 12:08 What struck me about the conversation with Frankie is you were specifically talking about people who do gig work by waiting on lines. Mm-hmm. 12:16 And that means, like, in the structure of the line, some people are on the line as labor, and some people are on the line as leisure. Yeah. 12:25 And the people who are there for leisure are the ones telling themselves this story that the line is also a third space. And I was like, well, is that an unusual paradox? 12:33 Like, is it unusual for two people to be having the same experience, but, like, one is there to work and the other is there for play? 12:40 And I was like, well, that is really the kind of the paradox at the center of restaurant work anyway, right? Hmm. Yeah. This kind of brings us to Brian and Spot. What is Spot? 12:51 Spot is a app for getting reservations in New York City. We basically integrate with Resy, OpenTable, now DoorDash. You can come in, you can say, "I wanna eat at XYZ places." 13:02 You can give a date range or something, and essentially it watches those platforms for tables to open up, and then when it sees one that fits the criteria you have, it books it for you, sends you a notification. 13:13 Basically, the goal is to just, like, help people get the tables they want. Would you say that these platforms want you to be using them in this way? [chuckles] Like, essentially, no. 13:23 Like, the platforms haven't done much over the past, like, really decade about- Mm-hmm... the experience. 13:29 It falls under probably what a lot of people would call just, like, enshittification, where it's just like Resy and OpenTable, like, historically didn't really do anything because this wasn't a huge problem globally. 13:40 And even still, like, New York is like, you know, it's an important market, but it's- Edge case... not their only market. Yeah. Mm-hmm. 13:45 And so I think, like, they were never that motivated to change it, and there wasn't much competition until a couple of years ago. 13:53 But is the core problem that people don't know whether to book on Resy or OpenTable, or is the core problem you're solving that too many people wanna eat at Red Hook Tavern every night? It's sort of both. 14:06 The main problem that people, like New Yorkers would feel probably like going back like 12 months ago, is that they hear about a place somewhere and they can't eat there. 14:15 And so that's essentially like, that was the genesis of Spot, is we were like, "Okay, everybody wants to eat at these places." 14:21 This was when like a lot of the AI software tools and stuff had taken off, and so it was like, okay, like, not only was this already a problem, but now, like, anybody who pays for Claude can just, like, probably code themselves like a simple little Resy bot or something. 14:33 And so I don't think we're going backwards from that ever. Like, I think that's just like, until the platforms meaningfully change, we're stuck in this new reality, which is just like, kinda sucks. 14:44 So Spot is the gentleman's Resy bot, essentially. [laughs] It is, yeah. It's the, it's the gourmet, yeah. How much should you have these services that democratize this access? 14:55 But like to me, you can't democratize a status-based consumer good. Like, restaurants and food are two different things. Restaurants are a limited good. There's only a limited number of reservations. 15:10 How are you going to democratize that? Spot is democratizing cheating the system essentially a little bit, and they're saying like, "Hey, the system's unfair. Why not make that work for you?" 15:21 You know, paying for somebody to wait online for you, that does democratize the ability to wait in line theoretically, but like where does that put the person that's being paid to do it? 15:31 Well, just fi- it just sort of financializes it, right? 15:34 Yeah, and if you give out reservations or movie tickets to the higher- highest bidder, which is like let the market decide, let supply and demand decide, you're not giving one, everyone the equal opportunity to access. 15:47 From the perspective of somebody who runs a restaurant, how have the dynamics between the reservation platforms changed the way that you run your business? Everything that they're trying to do right now is to cut costs. 16:01 They're like, "I'm coming to you as the owner, and I wanna make this as efficient for you as possible so you can keep your hours down, and you can pay people less." 16:10 And you saw, like, even 10 years ago, people starting to move away from, like, a high-labor model to this kind of smaller-labor model. 16:21 Even in restaurants like Noma and in fine dining and, like, tasting counters, you would be served by cooks, which was, like, an early idea. 16:28 That either allows you to tip your back of house, which is a financial labor model that helps you save money and then give more money to your staff, make them happier, but cuts out service and servers. 16:39 So it also requires a lot more of your back-of-house staff. But, like, everything has been kinda moving in this direction of, like, cutting labor essentially. 16:48 Which in my opinion sucks, because the human connection is what we're really after. That's why you go to a restaurant. 16:54 And especially in a city like New York where you could literally order almost anything, like post-COVID, even, like, thinking about restaurants like 11 Madison Park doing to-go food is, like, kind of an insane thing, right? 17:04 Or like Daniel. But they all did it, right? They all boxed shit up, and they sent it out, and they did delivery or pickup or whatever it is that they did. 17:11 I'm not saying they do that anymore, but, like, it completely changed the landscape, and the reservations game, which is like a total game now, is a big part of it. 17:24 It is like this slow evolution or, depending on how you wanna look at it, like degradation of hospitality and, like, person-to-person connection, right? Are you a big user of Resy, OpenTable, SevenRooms? 17:40 Are you, like, a reservation hound where you are waking up to get the thing at this time? No. I'm, I'm the... I'm, I'm kind of the worst. I shouldn't be saying this as a food writer, but I just, I cannot be bothered. 17:53 I mean, some- sometimes, sure. Mm-hmm. You know? But I'm such a, like, I want to go there in person and see if there's room, you know, or call the restaurant up. Yeah. You know? 18:04 I still buy my flights on a desktop computer or a laptop. I don't do it on my phone. Yeah. You know what I mean? I'm like- You're that millennial meme. Yeah. As my nephew would say, "I'm chopped unk." 18:14 You know, what I thought was interesting about your original premise, though, is still, like, this idea of reservations culture. What do you think reservation culture is? Like, what does the reservation represent? 18:25 I think there's a dynamic of, like, gamified entertainment or competitive entertainment, almost like video game culture applied to the ability to get a hard-to-get reservation. Yeah. 18:36 And it goes along with other dynamics we're seeing in culture right now where it feels like everything is gambling. You do kind of get the same dopamine spike of going on Call Sheet. 18:46 I just don't know, like, how much that changes the physical experience of dining out versus the way that it changes the experience for the small portion of people that decide they wanna play those status games. Mm-hmm. 19:00 I mean, you know, if you're a savvy owner or whatever, you're not going to rely only on your, like, reservations platform to tell you about your regulars. 19:10 First of all, you need to also manually input the table they like or the kind of wine that they like. 19:17 They're trying to say like, "Oh, if you pay extra, you get this added benefit of it, like, pinging you every time they come in, and it will suggest what to give them." Well, I'm sorry, but who gives a shit? 19:29 Like, you should give them a pour of sparkling. Duh. Like, anyone who's good at this is just going to do that anyway. Anyone who's good at this is gonna give them a pour of sparkling 'cause they waited too long. 19:40 I don't need the computer to tell me that. So, like, you're right. Like, I don't think it has that much impact. 19:46 But where it becomes a real numbers game, and this is why I think that also a lot of the reservations platforms are asking for exclusivity and are offering offers for exclusivity, is because on our end, the way that we've gamed it, and this is, like, how really advanced operators operate, you have multiple reservations platforms that don't communicate with each other, and so you maximize your visibility. 20:12 Let's say I did OpenTable and Resy at the same time, and I have half the book on one, half the book on the other, and then, like, I'm so good that I'm gonna max my book every single day, every single service, and I'm just gonna figure out what to do if there's overlap. 20:26 Normally, that would have happened on the fly, right? Like, I have reservations, but then I have a zillion people waiting outside of the door to come in the restaurant. I've put them at the bar. 20:34 Hopefully, I have enough space. And then I'm playing, like, Jigsaw in real time, showing my prowess in hospitality to make everyone feel accommodated, even if, like, they're waiting for a long time or they feel rushed. 20:45 The vibe of a restaurant will also dictate your turn times. Like, if a group of people comes into a restaurant that is absolutely smashed, they have to wait for their reservation. First of all, I kinda like that feeling. 20:55 I think other people secretly like it, too, and that's, like, part of the game, right? It's like you wanna be somewhere that feels important and it feels fun and has energy and is alive. 21:04 So, like, that kind of, like, blue-balling, in a way, is, like, almost part of it, right? And honestly, I start every meal at the bar anyway. Like, I wanna sit and experience the whole restaurant. 21:13 I wanna go sit at the bar. I wanna, like, talk to your bartender, and then I wanna sit at my table, like, late. I treat it like it's my evening. Like, I'm not gonna go to a show. 21:22 I'm gonna probably overeat and order dr- and over-drink, and I wanna go home and, like, pass out, you know? Like, I want to enjoy it so much so that I don't need anything else. 21:31 And I kind of, like, want other people to experience restaurants that way, too. In a lot of ways, I know that we have other things to do, but for me, it's really the main event. 21:38 But that's how, like, a really smart person would game it if they felt like they could say no to the cash, right? Like, and it's not that... Those aren't secrets, right? 21:45 Like, it's no secret that Resy is in partnership with Amex, you know, and no one's getting in trouble for saying that, right? 21:50 Like, they all got these big influxes of cash, and they're figuring out how to corner their markets, and it's, like, totally fine, you know? 21:59 And I don't do it this way because I have an exclusive, and I'm very happy with it. Resy, I love you. 22:05 The digitization of the reservation book, it could let you cut labor, but it also did something else specific based on how well-funded these startups offering reservations were, which is they were paying small and medium-sized restaurants directly. 22:25 Essentially, like, New York was, like, a Resy town, and then a couple of years ago, OpenTable started basically just paying restaurants a ton of money to switch off of Resy and onto OpenTable. 22:35 Paying, like, tens of thousands of dollars, right? It was, like, reported that I think, like, it was, like, almost six figures for some of them, and they would just, like, lock them into these contracts. 22:43 And then last year, DoorDash bought SevenRooms, which is another reservation platform that wasn't really known here, I don't think. They have, like, a good presence in Europe. 22:54 And they have started this wild campaign where they are throwing, like, I've heard, like, seven-figure deals at some of the restaurants to get them to switch over. 23:03 And so you might have seen, like, in New York, these, like, weird billboards that are like, "This restaurant is now on DoorDash Reservations," and just, like, nobody knows what that is [chuckles] or, like, wants to use DoorDash to, like, get a table. 23:13 Yeah. Okay. Wait, wait, wait. Yeah. I, I was confused. Earlier, yeah, earlier you said that you'd started integrating with DoorDash, and I, I had no idea why you said that. 23:20 Like, I was like, is that because, like, sometimes people are ordering from DoorDash and they'll shut down their ordering, and then Spot will tell you, like, oh, they've opened it back up? 23:27 I had no idea that they had a reservation program. It's really bizarre. Like, most people still kind of don't. I think, like, they're pushing it so hard, but just, like, their brand is just, like, so torched. 23:37 DoorDash is, like, the slop bowl company. They're the ones you log on to to, like, get Taco Bell at the end of the night. 23:42 And so, like, the idea that you would open that up to, like, eat at a Michelin Star restaurant is kind of insane to everybody. 23:48 But regardless, they're, like, throwing so much money at restaurants that a lot of them are switching. 23:53 Like, they recently flipped over the whole, like, SEMA, Ada, Damaka group is, like, now only on SevenRooms and DoorDash. 24:00 Um, I think Wild Cherry and Franchette, which are, like, also super buzzy, went over there recently, and so, like, they're getting really good restaurants to do this, but they're really just doing it through money. 24:10 And so, like, the experience for, like, the diners and the restaurants is getting worse, but restaurants are... 24:16 Like, it's so hard to make money as a restaurant that I think they're just like, yeah, if somebody shows up with $500,000 will make people go on, like, the, the Slop Burrito Taxi app to get a table here. 24:28 If Resy, DoorDash, OpenTable are paying all these restaurants, I actually don't know, like, how do the platforms actually make money from the restaurants? Do you know? 24:38 It's basically just like they pay them for the software, and so, like, back in the day, I think it was like- It's a SaaS. 24:44 Yeah, like OpenTable would be like, it costs, you know, a couple hundred dollars or whatever a month. Um, and then OpenTable, like, kinda notoriously, like, charges you per table or, like, per cover, um, in addition. 24:56 And so, like, you would be a restaurant, you would have an OpenTable, and every time somebody got a table through it, like, that would be, like, another do- dollar on your OpenTable bill. 25:04 And so Resy got a ton of adoption because they were like, "It just costs, like, $200 a month," and there's no per head, uh, charge. 25:10 And then I think they've continued doing this, but now it's like they're all owned by companies, like, massive companies, and so they don't need to make a profit anymore. Like, Amex owns Resy. 25:19 OpenTable is owned by, like, Booking.com. 25:22 DoorDash is trying to make a bunch of money as a delivery app, and this reservations thing is, like, sort of a side quest for them, where they seem to really care about it, but ultimately it's not going to decide, like, whether they make a profit or not. 25:33 Okay, like, another thing I think is really interesting that maybe seems like a non-sequitur but isn't, is Starbucks. And I know that sounds crazy, but Starbucks, basically like its own economy. It has its... 25:46 It's like its own bank, right? And what we're seeing now with things like Blackbird is, like, reservations platforms are trying to create their own economy. 25:56 There's like-- They're trying to scale and become this completely other thing with rewards and all sorts of shit. And some of them, the financial models, like, are really interesting. 26:05 Like, you know, Blackbird offers immense benefits to hourly staff. You can, like, log in and you get points, and you accumulate money for working a day. Where does that money come from? 26:16 Like, it's, they're, they're giving away money. It's like they're basically lending themselves money. They give it to your staff, and they can go spend it, but it's free money to the staff. 26:24 Where is that money coming from? I mean, I don't know. I don't know if that's, like, a sustainable model. It might just be a hook, right? Are you in a place for some news that might potentially hurt you? 26:34 [chuckles] Yes, I am. Let me set the scene. I just got off a plane from New Orleans, and I really wasn't in the mood to go out. But my friends, and Joe, you can bleep their names, former Decent guests, [censored] 26:47 and [censored], they lured me to Williamsburg on a Friday night to go to James Murphy's new pasta restaurant. 26:54 I mean, going to Williamsburg on a Friday night, again, not something that I'm usually inclined to do, but they had the reservation, and I thought I should do this. 27:00 And [censored] gets up to the counter, and Resy had flagged our reservation, and it was canceled. And they said, "We have to text Brian." And I said, "Who's Brian? Also, who's Andrea?" 27:15 Because that's who our reservation was under. So all of which is to say, my first experience with Spot was a little bit of a edge fail case. 27:24 [laughs] I actually didn't realize that this, that you were also in this party, because this was, like, a legendarily bad Spot moment. Like, probably the worst thing that's happened to anybody. 27:34 I will say in the moment that it was happening, I did think it was probably the worst thing that's ever happened to anyone, not just on Spot, but that's ever been alive. Probably. 27:42 The reservation was under Andrea Lund, which I remember because on Saturday, May 3rd at 10:56 AM, the day after the incident, I texted the group chat for this dinner, writing a short story called Andrea Lund and submitting it to The New Yorker. 27:55 And [censored] said, "What genre are you going for?" And I said, "Autofiction." [laughs] It wa-- This was-- So when we first started- So you guys were at headquarters freaking the fuck out when this happened. 28:08 I, I wasn't even at... I wish I was at headquarters, 'cause then I think we might've- Yeah... been able to do something. I was upstate with my girlfriend in a place with no reception. And so I didn't even see [censored] 28:20 text until, like, probably an hour and a half later. And that place was Stissing House. It literally was, actually. Um. [laughs] Oh, so you got to eat at Stissing House, and I had to eat at Bar Madonna. I see how it is. 28:32 I was, [laughs] I was having a coconut cake the size of my head- [laughs]... um, and you were being turned away. Wow. I was in the car on my way back, and I was just like, "What happened?" 28:41 And basically, Resy has this thing where, like, you can mark yourself as a concierge account. Basically, that lets you book on behalf of other users. 28:50 And we were not really sure how to use this correctly, and this led, in the beginning, to us, like, booking and then canceling too many reservations under some of the accounts. So who is Andrea Lund? 29:03 She is a fallen soldier of, of the Resy army, basically. Um, she's not a real person. Wait, what? She's not real? [dramatic sound] She's not. [laughs] Oh my God. You're just telling me this for the first time. 29:20 Basically, like, the-- [laughs] We, we did not know how to use the concierge accounts, and what had happened was one of the ones we were using, which was Andrea, got flagged by Resy. 29:30 And so Resy had sent an email that was basically like, "Your account is sus, and we are banning you from Resy." 29:37 A lot of times when people are booking through Spot, they will have, like, a conflicting reservation on Resy. Like, they'll be like, "Okay, I wanna go out on Friday. 29:46 I'm gonna book a table at somewhere that's easier to get, and then I'm gonna use Spot to try to get somewhere harder." 29:51 And so when that happens and we're trying to book a reservation, like, on someone else's behalf, often we are unable to, because you'd hit the thing in Resy where it, like, makes you cancel and then rebook. 30:02 And so we don't wanna just cancel people's reservations, so we just, like, scoop them up under, like, one of our accounts. So, like, we have a handful of them. And we had done that too many times, apparently. 30:11 And so Resy sent an email that was like, "Your account is gone." And when that happened, it just auto-canceled all of Andrea's upcoming reservations. There were probably, like, three or four. 30:21 But somehow this happened two hours before your table. And so- It was basically just probably the worst experience that anyone has had [laughs] on Spot and some of the worst luck. 30:30 Pure nightmare for, for me and my co-founder, and we were, we were scrambling. But there was also, at the time, we were like, "There's nothing to do." 30:36 Well, I tried to [censored] and I was like, "Oh my God, can you imagine if we were on a first date?" Like, I would never call you again. [laughs] And instead you have found me and called me to the podcast. 30:46 He was the one who had to say it. I kinda just pretended I didn't know him. 30:49 [laughs] Well, no, I have one, I have one more thing I wanna bring up, bring up, um, from your conversation with, with Jake, where he likened reservation culture democratization, so to speak, to Ozempic. Ozempic. 31:05 Ozempic started out being, like, really expensive and inaccessible, and very quickly it's become extremely accessible. And, like, big screen TVs, big flat screens, all that kinda shit, right? 31:15 Like, stuff that started off really expensive, unattainable, a symbol of status and wealth, now super, super accessible for the masses. And it's kind of like that. 31:25 Without knowing it, reservations culture has left the people that can afford to have a PA make their reservations and then make sure they get to the right one, and all you have to do is have a Platinum card. 31:35 All you need is to pay, what? I mean, it's, like, 800 bucks a year now to have an Amex Platinum, and then you're gonna get, like, prioritized VIP tables, and it's easier and all that kinda shit, right? And sure, that... 31:48 for a lot of people, that might be a huge leap, but not really. 31:51 I wanna push a little bit more on this, like, democratization idea, 'cause d- like, the logical conclusion of something like Spot or Same Ol' Line Dudes is, okay, if there's enough demand for this service that allows you to somewhat bypass y- waiting in these lines yourself or, like, waking up to make a reservation yourself, like, there will be imitators. 32:12 There will be Spot imitators. Or a new barrier. Wouldn't that just be a return to analog? No, I think it could be a lot of different things, right? 32:19 Like, the restaurant uses a different platform for booking, or they only open a certain number of spots to a certain category of person. I mean, the Amex example came up, right? 32:31 Like, you can already jump the line by having a certain type of credit card. Mm-hmm. 32:35 And if the endpoint of these reservation startups is to be acquired by an adjacent but different and more scalable business like a credit card company or a delivery service, then they could use that leverage to put, like, different 32:49 customer friction in place. Mm. And so it could depend on your standing within the other platform, what kind of credit card you have. They could ban line sitters. I don't think there is that much demand. 33:00 Like, in the end, like, Spot has a problem where they can only get so big before they are sort of, like, stepping on their own toes, and they're not then able to, to snag these exclusive reservations for all the customers who want, right? 33:14 So Spot can kind of only get so big. We spoke about this with Brian. The core version of the product, which is, like, the one we started with, there is just, like, a cap. I don't know the number. 33:22 It's kind of like we launched this with some friends and friends of friends, and then we hit, like, 50 people, and we were like, "Okay," like, "it seems like we could scale double." Like, we can get to 100 safely. 33:31 And then, like, we get to 100, and we, like, find the path to, like, 300 or 500 or something like that. 33:36 And so I don't know that it's larger than, like, 1,000 or a couple thousand, but that's part of the reason why we're like, "Okay, this is just, like, one product that we're gonna have, and now it's time to, like, launch ancillary things that help people get reservations but might not, like, automatically help." 33:50 It's kind of the perfect lifestyle business. Yeah, so we would love that. What I believe is that the usage of these services and apps, that customer base is actually pretty small, and most people either will just... 34:03 Like, they don't, they're not gonna wait in line. They're gonna find another restaurant, find another bakery. 34:07 Or they're just happy to wait in line because you're visiting and you're a tourist, and it's like, "This is kind of fun. 34:13 It's a beautiful day, and we're outside, and we're gonna eat this baked good with my family, and I'm chatting." Like, uh, to, to just kind of zoom out for a second and, like- I think you're right about line sitting. 34:22 I think you're wrong about Spot. Hmm. I think with line sitting, the barrier is people don't really wanna, like, interact with a gig worker in that way. 34:31 Like, you know, you have to coordinate with your line sitter, right? I do think, like, the type of person who's looking for a truly frictionless experience wouldn't bother hiring somebody. 34:38 But I do think the reason why Spot is small is because it's invitation only. If more people knew about Spot, more people would use it. Like- Yes... 34:45 let's not underestimate what New Yorkers will do for a reservation at even, let's say, The Smith. I've written about this before. I'll never forget when I walked into The Smith and there was a 45-minute wait. Hmm. 34:56 So there's a whole other New York, Francis, under the New York you and I experience. Let's call it- New York B. [laughs]... New York B. 35:02 [laughs] New York B would absolutely pay Brian Wagner their well-earned Goldman Sachs wages. Yeah. Do you know, um, you, you were talking about gig workers. 35:12 I never thought about this before, but what if we called gig workers gigglers? Okay. Um- [laughs] I was about to say-... I need some time to suggest that. 35:20 [upbeat music] Is the end state of Spot just AI chatbots becoming universal interface? 35:26 Like, what happens when the average user becomes comfortable enough with the tool that they just make these bookings themselves, or, you know, the interfaces become increasingly, like, bots talking to bots, agents layered on agents? 35:39 Obviously, the status and the taste ultimately accrues to the human being that shows up in the restaurant, but how do we stop this from becoming just, like, an Ouroboros of enshittification? 35:51 I do think that, like, there will be this sort of, like, agents talking to agents thing. 35:54 I don't think that, like, screens and apps are going away 'cause I think just, like, often there are decisions you have to make, and, like, people do also like to do their own sort of, like, discovery and research and curation. 36:05 There are a lot of experiential things where, like, the AI can't necessarily know what is, like, truly good or not. Like, the, um... 36:14 Going back to, like, the line culture thing, like, a little bit, like, there was that New Yorker article about, um, the froyo lines recently. 36:20 I don't know if you guys read it, but, like, um, like, Helen, like, Rosner was talking about how, like, the ones that are viral and have the long lines are, like, not the best froyo. 36:29 Like, it's just like those are the ones that happen to blow up on the algorithm and, like- It's one of those things where it's just like the line is, like, begetting the line, and then just, like, people see it and get in it, and then, like, make content about the line, and it's just, like, this infinite, like, weird cycle. 36:43 And then, like, you get the froyo, and you're just like, "This is, like, soft serve." And so I think that, like, with all of the algorithmic flattening, like, the AIs will get you to, like, somewhere. 36:55 Like, the AI would send you to, to, like, Mimi's for sure. Um, but, like, we're interested in sending people to, like, the other ones that you mentioned, where, like, you'll probably have a better experience. 37:04 Hopefully you won't have to wait in a line. You know, don't forget how offline some people are. Don't forget that there's a family from Waukegan who wants to go and have a great slice. 37:13 You know, I- [laughs] My mother's from Waukegan, so I feel like I can do this. I have a lot of love for the Midwest. And, you know, they see a guy with a big yellow sign saying, "I'll wait in line for you," and they go, 37:26 "Hell yeah." Yeah, I think you always have to lean on a bit of the analog to, to an extent. 37:34 Well, so, so the interesting thing is, like, I'm working with a friend of mine, Andrew Quo, who's the producer of Subway Takes, and we're, like, shooting content and maybe trying to work on, like, a cooking show. 37:44 And I'm like, "Why are you interested in a cooking show?" 37:48 And he's like, "I think that there's gonna be an upswing back to more human and more analog experience, and what's more human and analog than food and restaurants? 38:00 I mean, you have to put it in your mouth, you have to chew and swallow, you have to drink." And so, like, he's kind of making a gamble on humans wanting to interact with each other. 38:09 I also feel like the Anthony Bourdain Sentimentality Index, which is something I just made up on the spot, is a very good indicator of where people's heads are at with that. 38:18 And I've also seen a rising, new rising index, Emeril nostalgia, rising the timeline. The first time someone suggested I, I do a show or something was, like, years ago. 38:29 And I'm not saying that like, "Oh, they suggested it 'cause, like, whatever." It, this just happens, right? Like, you cook, and they're like, "Oh," like, they asked me what I wanted to do. 38:35 And I was like, there's this humongous hole where Anthony Bourdain used to be. I mean, people don't really, unless you're in... You were a cook, like, a cook at that time even, know what he represented. 38:47 He was the every man's chef. He was not a massive talent. He wasn't a fucking genius, right? Like, he's the first to say that. 38:55 He just loved cooking, and it was, like, exciting and fun and, and hard and, like, and it was a refuge. And, like, it really was all those things. I mean, it kind of becomes other things, too. 39:05 But, like, to have someone voice that, especially, like, pre-Instagram and all that kind of stuff, and be like, "It's okay to be a nameless, hardworking, 39:17 sweating, toiling line cook," and that there's glory in it, and you know that, but only a few people know that, and it's the people who do it. 39:24 And also for him to have committed suicide was, like, such a light going out because if he couldn't keep it going, like, why should I, you know? And he's successful, and he made it. 39:34 And so it was, like, super upsetting, and I don't think, I think a lot, you know, that's what people are still like, in dark times, turning, turning to an Anthony Bourdain who, like, kinda gives you hope. 39:42 But then you kinda remember that he took his own life, and it's, like, so sad, you know? Yeah. I think it will be interesting to see what the discourse ends up being around the A24 film. 39:53 You know, it's about the early time in his life when he was just learning even how to be in a kitchen and was kinda still, like, a piece of shit in a lot of ways and [laughs] you know? 40:02 And maybe that is the most enticing human part of the story. I remember, like, my chef and mentor, Justin Smiley, and he said to me once, he's like, "Man, it's so crazy, like, you didn't know me when I fucking sucked." 40:15 He told me a story that his mom gave him a knife block, like a Wüsthof knife block with the knives in it, and he brought it to his first job, completely oblivious and unaware to, like, how embarrassing and dorky and, like, all the things, right? 40:28 Like, we were all embarrassingly bad, and, like, that's one of those things, again, where he's so honest about how embarrassing he was and how funny it is. Like, kitchens are so funny. 40:40 Even as hard as they are and as mean as they can be, there's just so much humor in them. And, like, you don't really get to sense that either as a diner, but you do get that sense from Anthony. Anyway, yeah. 40:54 It occurs to me, like, there's sort of this inverse relationship between reservation culture and line culture, and I'm defining line culture as, like, the increase in dialogue in New York around lines for... 41:06 You know, it started as, like, streetwear, but, like, well, now it's pop-ups and everything and, you know, even Radio Bakery. If you don't offer that many reservations, you're more likely to have a line out the door. 41:15 But what does a line out the door, like, represent or signal for the business and for people passing by? 41:20 Personally, I'm on the record as hating lines, and I won't wait in them unless it's, like, to check out from somewhere. I find it, like, really humiliating and weird, and I feel like I'm part of the advertising. 41:33 I've joked on the podcast before that I think it's some sort of weird, like, intergen- generational trauma around lines, where I'm like, my body remembers that's just not the right place to be. 41:42 But other people kinda love it. Like, they turn them into third spaces. They turn them into a way to meet people. They turn it into a way to, like, pass the time. It's like Night at the Roxbury, right? 41:51 Like, the outside of the club is the inside of the club. Exactly. It's like anything. 41:55 You get, you warm up to an idea, and what seems ridiculous, like, I remember, like, Crocs, hideous, ridiculous, no one, everyone, right? 42:05 Like, you warm up to something, it's marketed appropriately, and then everyone just actually jumps in on it. So if you have a line outside your restaurant, how does that feel to you emotionally? Well, two things. 42:17 I mean, coming from the perspective of, like, uh, someone who was once a line cook and then, like, you know, a chef, a few things are, like, deep anxiety. If you look at a line that's, like, 200 people long, like- 42:31 I added a bathroom at Chez Ma Tante just so I didn't have to, like, look at people while I was expediting waiting to pee, because it was so painful to watch them, like, anxiously watching me. 42:41 'Cause they- they're standing right next to the kitchen, it's the most interesting thing for them to look at, but they're, like, dancing and waiting, and someone's, like, in there, and I'm sorry, it's, like, brunch and it's gross, and, like, whatever's happening there is taking way too long, and I feel terrible for them. 42:54 I want them to be, like, A, relieved, and B, like, go back to their table, you know? [laughs] So there's, like, that, that's a line. 43:02 Then the line is, like, okay, you now have 200 people that are waiting to get in or to, like, get something, and they're unhappy. They're looking at me like some kind [laughs] of animal at the zoo. 43:13 You get a sense that there's animosity, and there's not always animosity at all, and maybe that's a total projection. And it's just like this is how much work I have to do to be done, right? 43:23 Like I, I can't leave until that line is gone. So if the line is massive, it's like... But on the upside it's like, wow, we built this thing. 43:31 We made this product that people love or are at least willing to try and willing to wait for, and that's very gratifying. I don't know how many people get to do that with their life. 43:43 You make something that people are literally willing to, like, line up for and give you money for, and it's cool. It feels great. And if they're happy, I mean, it's like, if they're happy, it's, it's the best. 43:57 But it's like what if they're not happy, you know? That, that question is, like, nagging and lingering always. And they'll tell you. They get on Yelp and try to fucking rip you up, you know? 44:10 It's a different type of line, but, you know, not quite the third space of the women's bathroom at the club line. 44:16 But regardless, I thought that was a very interesting relationship to have with a line that forms inside of your restaurant. 44:23 [laughs] Uh, this reminds me of when I was working at this cafe in New Orleans, and I, uh, led the kitchen. It wasn't a super complex menu. This was a coffee shop. We made sandwiches. Kind of an open kitchen. 44:34 And on Saturdays, Sundays especially, the line would get so long, and I would always work mornings. 44:39 And when I saw a line out the door, and we've got a bunch of tickets on the rail, you were, like, so angry at these customers for coming to buy food from you and forcing you to make food. 44:49 But it's also, like, the most, like, adrenaline, thrilling experience you can have in that job, right? 44:57 Maybe this is something I need to work on, 'cause I'm thinking of one other time it was just me working the line, and there's, like, a little boy of probably six years old kinda sitting at, like, one of the counter seats just watching me work. 45:06 It just inspired this, this fury in me where I'm like, "This child just gets to watch me, and I'm getting paid, like, $13 an hour, and I'm just, like, working so hard here. He's just watching me." 45:17 We gotta bring back child labor. He could have been making the sandwiches, too. C- you know, why don't we have more child journalists? They're so good at asking why. Kids are so funny, dude. 45:26 What if we did a child episode of Taste Line, and our three guests are, like, a child from the marketing industry, a child from the tech industry, [laughs] and a child from the media industry? [laughs] Um. 45:35 Think about it. Okay. Some line-adjacent things have happened to me recently that do feel related to the subject at hand. I accidentally became a regular somewhere. 45:45 I went to Colina Cuervo maybe three times in the course of two weeks. So in my mind, not approaching regular status, but I got food those times, and so I did have to give my name and wait. 45:59 Fourth time I go, "Daisy, right?" I'm like, "Oh, God." He's like, "The tall girl with the sharp canines just walked in." Like, because when I'm in public, I like to pretend I'm functionally invisible. 46:13 And so the fact that he was like, "Daisy, right?" Was like, "Oh, I didn't know we were at that point, sir." I think that's a nice thing. 46:21 I think that is also a normal, healthy thing to take away from the conversations we've had in this episode. Maybe an opposite of waiting in line is just being a regular somewhere normal in your neighborhood. I agree. 46:36 And if you're still in line to download the podcast, stay in line. [crickets chirping] If you're in line to tell Francis to shut the fuck up, please stay in line. [laughs] [upbeat music] Hey, it's time to dip. 46:53 It's time to dip
