Transcript 0:00 [upbeat music] Welcome back to Tasteland. I am Francis Zehr. And I'm Daisy Alioto. Daisy, who are we speaking to today? Today we're speaking with Daniel Spielberger. 0:15 He's a writer and editor based in Los Angeles and has written for outlets such as Interview, Them, Los Angeles Review of Books, and Vogue. He's the executive editor of Study Hall, and he hosts the Study Hall podcast. 0:29 Always fun to have a fellow podcaster on, uh, which Francis went on earlier in the year. Daniel, still waiting for my invite. [laughs] Tsk, tsk. 0:38 Uh, he also runs an immersive profile project called Daniel Docs, which we did together earlier in the year, um, and it is an interview. It takes ta- takes place entirely in a Google Doc. It's basically like... It's like 0:52 being edited, the... It, it's being edited as a profile. Yes. Yeah. Um, something funny happened to me yesterday. You know when you're on... 1:02 You see those, like, videos on Instagram of somebody on a train, and they're like... And somebody's drawing them? Yes. You know? 1:07 Uh, so I, I was going to Manhattan for a minor doctor's appointment, and I've got, like, one stop left, and this guy next to me is like, "Hey, man," like, uh, "Do you mind if I draw you? I take donations." 1:19 I'm like, "Okay, let's see where this is going." I, I know I have a five in my pocket. I'm like, "Okay, I'll give him a five." You, you have one minute, maybe two minutes. Train gets delayed. Um, I, 1:30 I know this is an audio podcast. This is, like, a horrible story [laughs] to tell. It's the worst portrait I've ever seen [laughs], and I only see it... 1:38 I've handed him the five, um, and he's handing me the portrait as it happens. Um, I'll text you it after this. I'm- It's so bad... dying to see it. But is it, like, so bad it's camp? Yeah. 1:51 I mean, everybody I shared it with thought it was so funny. You know- Yeah... quotes include, "This is priceless." Um, so. Well- Okay... five dollars well spent. Five dollars well spent. 2:01 Uh, other thing I did, I went to the much-hyped Cameron Winter at Carnegie Hall- You did... show. Did you buy your tickets on the primary market [laughs] or the secondary market? 2:13 I bought them when they were released back in, like, May for, for $45. I did not- Yeah, you're a Virgo. You have your shit together. Precisely. Precisely. Also, we were like... 2:20 Well, I don't know that we ever talked about Cameron Winter on this pod, but I guess you and I were kinda early to him relative to him being, like, really blown up. We've, we've ganderered on geese plenty here. Yeah. 2:31 Um, oh, okay, but what I wanna say about the, about the show, it was good, right? Uh, but it's... 2:36 There's this feeling around, and we're talking about it now, so part of the problem, but there's this feeling around it that's like when you go to MoMA and see people taking photographs of Starry Night or, you know, when you see the photographs of people taking photographs of the Mona Lisa. 2:49 I saw way too many videos of the concert. I'll say that- Yeah... off the bat. And let me say, I took one, and I did post it on my Instagram story, so I am part of the problem. Yeah. And as I was taking it, he's, uh... 2:58 It's the song- Je suis un problème. It's the... Precisely. It's the song Drinking Age, and he's saying, he's like, "Blah, blah, blah. From now on, this is who I'm gonna be." Something like, uh, "I'm a piece of meat." 3:10 And I'm, like, taking a video, like, right before or after that happens. I forget. Mm. Uh, I, I hung my head in shame. But okay. Like, there, there's this GQ article to, you know, inside the... 3:22 It was like, inside the mega sold out Cameron Winter show. Inside- Yeah... Cameron Winter's extremely sold out show. I saw that, but I hit my, uh, number of free articles on Old Gentleman's Monthly. 3:31 Oh, well, you know how to get around paywall. Great, great photographs by Bowen Farney. Uh, but the photographs too, they're kind of this, like, really warm tone. They're really good. 3:39 Who did the whole- And the whole thing- Huh?... video it? It's somebody famous. Yeah. Paul Thomas Anderson and Benny Safdie- Yeah, yeah... were filming it. Which I'm, I'm- Mm-hmm... you know, I was... 3:48 The nose was bleeding. Together, or they're, they're each putting their own auteur take on it? Surely together. Surely together. Mm. Um, but yeah, I s- I, you know, I could see... You know, I wear glasses. 3:56 Like I said, it's not so great. I'm pretty far up there. Like, I was like- Mm... it kinda looks like Paul Thomas Anderson. Uh, and then I was affirmed on Twitter later it was Paul Thomas Anderson. 4:04 But okay, all, all this to say it was, it was a great show, and I enjoyed it. But I also had... I, I had a deeper enjoyment of a show I went to a week previously- Mm... which was Blood Orange, uh, at Brooklyn Steel. 4:16 Ugh, the best. And so my point is this is like I think there's... Let's, let's just wait a little while, right? Like, I think- They were in my Spotify Wrapped. This, this may be, this may be a, an historic 4:29 concert by the young man at Carnegie Hall, but there's just this such this eagerness to, to, to make a self-fulfilling prophecy here. It's like, can we, like, look back on this in, in five years, 10 years? 4:39 Can we not be like, "I was there"? And I'm... Again, I'm doing it now, but I just think, I just think we all need to chill a little bit. It was a good show- No... but, like, it was not- Culture moves really quickly... 4:47 the best show I've ever seen. I think people have a sense of, um, more of a sense of, like, pre-nostalgia. Yeah. But I also think, like, 4:57 because of the topics that we talk about on this podcast, it's important not to create a trap where we penalize people for having good taste when in the rare occasions that good taste becomes temporarily monocultural. 5:08 Yeah. Like, I think this... I reflexively find myself trying to do, like, a cultural critique, and then I'm like, you know what? Sometimes good things become- Let people enjoy things? Yeah. 5:18 Let people enjoy tasteful things, for sure. Mm-hmm. And, um, you know, selling out is real, but, you know, this is somebody who kind of speed ran being on the fringe to 5:32 being seemingly everywhere in a slice of the American public that we engage with the most, which is not representative of the rest of the American public. Mm-hmm. Um, and I think that's something to celebrate. Okay. 5:44 You're right. No, you're right. I think the issue here is that I need to spend less time looking at after-the-fact, uh, content about a thing I attended in real life. Well, I think you're struggling with the... 5:58 struggling with trying to balance making a memory with kind of the ick of being a performative fan.Mm-hmm. You're right But I think it's okay to make a memory, um, 6:12 and it's okay to, like, reinforce that memory in your synapses by engaging with other people that were there because there's a lot of demands on your attention, and I think it's your way of saying, like, "I wanna, like, relive this particular authentic experience that I had." 6:26 Yeah. Uh, I will say, you know, to throw some egg on my face here, just briefly if I haven't already done that, I've never been part of a standing ovation before an encore this long. Wow. 6:38 And I, and I sat back down and actually prepared to leave [laughs] as well. I was like, "He's not gonna do it." And then he comes back out, and I'm like, "Okay. Well, good. We'll stay. I've got my jacket on. 6:47 We're gonna stay." I, I'm glad I stayed. It was nice. We can move on. [laughs] No, I'm... 6:53 I have been engaging with this through clips that have come up on my TikTok, and I've been sick, so I've been watching, like, a lot of TikTok. What's, what's the screen time the past couple days? 7:03 So it's nice to hear it from the horse's mouth. Yes. Dude, I don't even wanna look, but I did also read some books. Oh. Um- Oh, isn't that nice? And I'm midway through Gillian... [laughs] Gillian. 7:13 Gilead by Marilyn Robinson. Mm-hmm. Which is one of Barack Obama's favorite books. He famously interviewed her for The New York Review of Books. Our greatest living critic. 7:21 Yeah, in 2015, and I've been hearing about this book for a while. I'm finally reading it, and it is as good as everyone says. [upbeat music] Congratulations on your engagement. Mm-hmm. Oh, thank you. 7:40 [laughs] Thank you. Um, thank you so much. Yes. Um, yes. I was, I was genuinely surprised. I, we were talking about it was gonna happen, but I was genuinely surprised how it happened. Mm. 7:53 Which is rare for me to be surprised, 'cause I usually am pretty aware of everything that's gonna happen. 7:57 That's the best balance, like, where you, you're mentally prepared for the event, but there's still some aspect of it that is surprising. Exactly, yeah, 'cause I was on the, like... 8:08 Uh, Brent took me to, like, at the top of this mountaintop. Um, uh, like, this, like, military bunker in Oahu. And the whole... It was so windy that the whole time... 8:18 He set up his camera, and he's, like, a perfectionist with photography. Mm. And he was setting up his camera for 10 minutes, and I was just like, "I'm... We're gonna get blown away- [laughs] -on this mountain." 8:28 Like, "What are you doing?" Like- Well, you were blown away, but... [laughs] Yeah. 8:32 No, but, like, literally, and there was, like, a f- uh, a h- like, all this cactus next to us, and there was, like, m- uh, my glasses and this bag, and this ca-... 8:41 I was like, "W- c-" I was like, "Babe, could we just take the selfie and go?" And then he, like, popped the question. I felt so bad, but I think that's the key to surprise me is, like- Mm... 8:49 it make me really, really anxious. So I'm thinking about, like, vertigo and everything, but, um, marriage. But you did get the pic. We did get the pic. We did get the pic. 8:57 These very nice French hikers were there and took a photo for us, so- So nice... love wins. Your... Like, the, the selfie went vir- re- really viral, and you got, like, 10K likes on Twitter. That was... 9:10 Yeah, that was, that was surprising. Um, yeah, that was surprising. I, I guess some... The oomph came through. [laughs] Dude- Uh, but- Yeah. [laughs] A- and every one of those... 9:20 Brent was like, "All of those people are invited to the wedding," all, everyone who liked that. That's gonna be expensive. 9:25 Well- [laughs] I've been doing some wedding planning- There is a great thing embedded about, like, the two tracks of Twitter right now, where it's like stuff either really takes off or doesn't get any engagement, and, like- Yeah... 9:33 a random photo of Ben and I took off, and I, like, kinda got scared. I was like, "What's going on?" It's scary. My friend- That was scary... Heather, or... You know, she's a mutual. Actually- These are not the oops... 9:42 you've met her. Yeah. Um, her, like, birthday, being... Her, like, photo where she was like, "I'm 37," like, that took off, and she came back and was like, "What the hell is going on?" It's scary. Yeah. 9:55 'Cause the moment you cross the 2K threshold, you start getting quote tweets being, like, questioning your, like, like, your, your IQ level, or... It gets personal. 10:05 And then you have to just, like, be like, "Okay, this is, like, has left, uh, my s- a circle of Twitter that I'm not familiar with"- Yeah... "and, and just let it rock." So, yeah. 10:13 Well, so I'm, I've got a very kinda clear vision of your dynamic through this important microcosm of your relationship, so I have to know what each of your zodiac signs are. Oh my God. Okay. So I'm an Aries. Okay. 10:29 And he is a Taurus. Brent's a Taurus. Yeah. And we actually... Um, so we live in LA, and we went to one of these, like, uh, woo-woo shops to get incense and, like, all this stuff. 10:44 And then we got our, like, chart read, and they were like, "You guys are perfectly exalted." This guy was like, "You guys are, like, perfectly aligned." 10:51 And then afterwards I was like, "Do you think this guy just says that to, like, every couple so he can sell, like, $500 crystals?" You know? Like, like- Yes... 10:57 who's gonna t- who's gonna, like, do a chart reading and be like, "I... You guys need to rethink things"? [laughs] But... [laughs] I believe you guys are exalted, but I also do believe that he says that to everyone. 11:06 [laughs] I think he has to. Well, wait. But- Speaking about LA, right before you came on, Daisy was talking about how she just, in a lobotomized post-COVID state, watched I Love LA. I've been seeing- Oh, you did?... 11:16 everything about it. I haven't watched it at all. I was gonna skip it- But I would love to-... but I did watch it. Um, what are you... Did you watch... Are you caught up to episode seven? Oh, yeah. But I was... 11:26 I'll say, like, I got to the end, and I was like, "Wait, that's it?" Like, uh, Girls episodes were famously half an hour, but I feel like they fit so much into that half hour. Exact- yeah. 11:38 Well, I think, uh, speaking of Twitter and things going viral- [laughs]... I, I tweeted that episode seven is where it's found its, like, footing, like what it wants to be. Mm-hmm. Mm. 11:49 And a lot of the early reviews I was reading were saying that, like, that it doesn't know if it wants to be Girls or Entourage. Mm. 11:55 But I actually think it's, like, Gen Z Entourage because, like, the stakes aren't these interpersonal relationships of, like, what it means to be a good friend or what it means to be a good partner. 12:07 Like, that's there as, like, for narrative momentum sometimes, but it's actually about, like-Influencer economy, booking the big dinner, booking the big photo shoot, booking the... Like, those are the stakes. 12:19 And some people are like, "Oh, these aren't, these are actually zillennials, and, uh, these are millennials." Like, I don't really care about that. 12:25 I mean, like, when I mean, like, Gen Z, I mean, like, what does it mean to be famous as, like, a Gen Z person? Mm. 12:29 And that, I think, is what I Love LA is showing is, like, you don't really know what this type of influencer is. She's just kind of like an empty vessel for anything. 12:38 That's why, like, she ends up in that, like, uh, like, laughably woke, uh, race commercial. This is the Rachel Sennott character? Yeah. No, Rachel Sennott- No... is the manager. Oh. 12:47 And then Odessa is kind of like this, like, hot influencer who's kind of like her blank canvas. Um, and she's trying to, like, ride her coattails to, like, get to New York, which is true. 12:59 Everyone in LA is trying to get to New York, so that's an astute observation. But I, yeah, I think that it's like s- it started off a little bit awkward, but I'm optimistic about the show now. 13:11 But that was a controver- controversial opinion for some reason. So... It's a show for 27-year-olds. [laughs] And I say that in a very neutral way. I am spiritually, I'm spiritually 27. I don't know. 13:19 [laughs] Yeah, I think 27's a great age, but I will say I feel like, um, I think I met Ben when I was 27. Mm. But I do feel like my life really started at 28. Mm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think that's the show... 13:35 Yeah, I think it shows, like, 27, like, professional angst. And- Mm... yeah, yeah. I don't think it's, like, the perfect show, but, um, it's, it's enjoyable for now. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I was like, I found it watchable. 13:50 I wasn't watching it like, "Oh, my God, this is horrible." But- Yeah... yeah, it's, it's... I guess it's, like, from your perspective as somebody who, like, 14:00 watches entertainment and critiques it at, like, a higher level as well, like, when you write a show where the stakes are not as evergreen as the nature of, like, love and friendship- Mm-hmm... 14:15 and confidence, finding yourself, um, is it possible that you're just... You're writing something for the moment, but you're not creating something timeless? Of course, yeah. 14:27 I think this show will not age well, and that's okay. Yeah. Yeah. Like, just like how Entourage doesn't age well. 14:33 I remember, like, when the Entourage movie came out, I think Vulture wrote, like, a really fantastic piece about how, uh, it's, like, really impossible to place what year the Entourage movie takes place. Mm. 14:43 And it's, like, so fascinating. But if you watch the Ent- Entourage now, it's, like, a lot of cameos from people that you don't care about anymore, or, like, the stakes are things... 14:52 I, I mean, like, people still care about movies, but it's just, like, a, kind of, like, an antiquated, uh, notion of fame. So I don't think this show will age that well. 15:02 A lot of the humor is very specific to, like, internet and, like- Yeah... 15:06 on episode seven, there was, like, that joke about Rachel Sennott pretending to be Jewish, and that's just, like, you have to be very online to get that joke- Mm... 15:13 because it's all about how she was in Shiva Baby, but she's not Jewish, and she passes as j- as Jewish. Oh, interesting. So it, it, allegedly. [laughs] I'm s- we'll find out if she is eventually. She needs to do, um... 15:27 MrBeast needs to buy 23andMe, and they need to go on Twitch and do, like, a live stream of her 23andMe. Yeah. Um, okay. Something I- This is the type of genetic scrutinization that I support. [laughs] Okay. 15:44 We're gonna, we're gonna- Can I just say, like, one more thing, Francis? Yeah, yeah. I think it's, it's hard to, like, come up with a definition of prestige TV that doesn't rely- Yeah... 15:53 on, like, other definitions of prestige. I've always felt that prestige is really understood through the rewatch. Hmm. Yes. That, like, there's something about prestige television that, like, when you rewatch it, it, um, 16:09 the experience compounds- Yeah... rather than, like, you revisit something. 16:15 And so, like, Mad Men, Sopranos, now Girls, all shows I hear people talk about rewatching, and the experience of rewatching has this very distinct thing. Hmm. 16:25 Maybe it's because I'm, like, an East Coast girly, I don't hear a lot of people talking about rewatching Entourage. Yeah, people don't rewatch En- yeah, they don't, they don't. The rewatch- Well, the rewatching- Yeah... 16:36 the, the rewatching is something about, like, like, or the prestige TV is less about the rewatching because, like, I, my fiance rewatches, uh, like, 30 Rock and Veep all the time. But- Mm... those aren't prestige TV. 16:48 The prestige TV aspect is, like, the, the show as, like, being a rich text, like, in a literary sense that then, that then the re- the rewatching is about, like, revisiting it and rereading it with new eyes now that you're- Yeah... 17:02 a few years older, and you... It, it's, the, what it says about the human experience is slightly different, right? It's like, it's something about that. Right. 17:10 You, like, rewatch it to deepen your interpretation of the show- Yeah... not to comfort yourself. Yeah. Well, the rewatch is like the Torah. 17:18 Like, you read the Torah every year, and, like, you, every time [laughs] there's- [laughs] It's so true. It's too bad Rachel Snow would never know anything about that. [laughs] Is it Snow or Sennott? 17:26 Well, does anyone know that? I think Sennott. I think it's Sennott, but I don't know. Is it Snow, the, like, the- Snow... bodies of water in Mexico? She's a French Jew, so we say it's Snow. 17:34 [laughs] Fr- Snow makes it seem like she has, like, a Semiotexte, like, chat book about, like, post-structuralist theory and, like- 100%... and, like, the war on terror, you know, something like that. 17:44 And it's just called, like, Force- Yeah, yeah. [laughs]... and then there's, like, a 500-word sub- Oh, my God... title. Um, okay, no. I wanna, I wanna talk about, uh, 17:53 T- Twitter discourse flippa the week, the Wall Street Journal article, "Companies Are Desperately Seeking Storytellers," which I've seen a million quote tweets. 18:01 [laughs] Um, I'm gonna read one brief excerpt from it that is, like, some hard data at least, which is, uh, "The percentage of LinkedIn job postings in the US that include the term storyteller doubled in the year ended November 26th to include some 50,000 listings under marketing and more than 20,000 job listings under media and communications that mention the term according to the professional networking platform."Uh, so yeah, that's, takes aside, apparently the word is being used twice as much in job postings on LinkedIn as it was a year previously 18:36 Um, it kinda reminds me, like, in 2017, wasn't, like, ninja and hacker and, like, all that stuff? And, like, rockstar, wizard. 18:42 Rockstar, wizard, and that was happening a lot in the startup world because everything was, like, about disruption. Mm-hmm. 18:49 Like, that was the time where you can, like, go into a job interview and be like, "You guys are fucking whack," and then you get the job because [laughs] Yeah. You got creative director. Mm-hmm. 19:02 I think was- You guys are doing- Yeah... everything wrong, and then you get the job. I guess now, I don't know. 19:07 I think storyteller, is it because, like, they, everyone wants, like, a TikTok influencer or, like, video content and, like, follow the brand through this journey? Is that what's trending right now? 19:17 I think it's, I think it's 'cause, yeah, it's, it's that. It's 'cause there's too much of everything, and so it's like I'm interpreting this as, like, they want somebody who can build a narrative. 19:26 It, it's, it's just, like, another word for marketing, right? Mm. It's, like, somebody who can, like... It's marketing plus comms. 19:32 We want somebody who can, like, give our brand a place in the conversation and, like, sell the philosophy of our brand. It's, it's just the latest iteration of, like, of marketing. 19:45 Former guest of the pod, Reggie James, texted me this morning, 19:48 no context, no greeting, just like, "I'm sick of this," and I was like [laughs] I assume that you're [laughs] you're referring to the Wall Street Journal article, and he was like, "Yes, I am." 19:58 Well, he's been tweeting about it 'cause, 'cause he's written about this topic many times in his newsletter and probably on his blog. We all have. Yeah. Yeah. 20:06 I feel like the Wall Street Journal covering it is kind of like, that means like it's, like, the last- It's over... breath. It's over. It's kind of over. The last storyteller [laughs] turns the lights out. 20:13 [laughs] The last... Yeah, the last storyteller, but it, it really- We're, we're living in the end- Yeah... of his storytelling. Exa- That is horrible... yes, exactly. I think, yeah, I, I don't know. I think it... 20:26 for me it's just like define what a story is 'cause, like, when I'm going through TikTok and Instagram Reels or watching, like, Bethany Frankel, like, freak out about, like, a chicken salad is, like, is... 20:36 and that's the stuff that gets traction. Is that really a story? Mm. 20:39 Or is that, like, a, a very manic vignette that, like, we're all, like, latching onto because it's kind of, like, uh, so absurd that we, we ke- we can't help it, you know? I think it's, like, the story, like, 20:52 a story in this definition is, like, a thing that people listen to, right? Mm. Like, that's what it is. It's about making... It's about building a narrative that people will pay attention to and listen to. 21:03 Look, guys- Which is the same-... we tell ourselves stories in order to live. We don't tell ourselves stories- [laughs]... in order to make money In order to sell B2B SaaS? Yeah. I think- Has that happened? 21:11 Like, has someone done a Joan Didion, like, brainy quote in a deck? Do you think that's happened before? Many times, Danielle. Yeah. More times than you would ever wanna know. 21:20 [laughs] Maybe even I, I myself have done this. [laughs] Um, yeah, I actually was working on a deck yesterday. I myself have done this. That was great. [laughs] It's terrible. 21:29 Yeah, I myself have done this as, like, a, a slide in the appendix. Um, I think the interesting thing though, um, I was talking about this with f- former guest of the pod, Danny Loftus. Actually my... 21:41 Sorry, guys, I only speak to people who have been on this podcast or will be on this podcast. My social circle is small, but we all crazy. 21:48 [laughs] Um, we, we were talking about how, uh, some of, like, the loudest voices on, I guess, tech Twitter, VC Twitter, I would say the investors in particular- Mm... 21:59 that will engage with these ideas and, like, really hype up the word of the moment, whether it's, like, storytelling or taste- Mm... or, like, narrative 22:08 or, you know, whatever, um, friction, which is, I would argue, like, we're all describing the same phenomenon- Mm... which is, like, that which is not slop. Even slop- Mm... itself, like, there was old words for this. 22:21 Like, slop- Yeah... is the new one. These are not, these, we're, like, reinventing the wheel. Um, they're very loud. 22:28 They do not invest in companies whose primary differentiator or, is, like, storytelling or that are optimized for storytelling. 22:39 They will still at the end of the day when they're sitting in that room invest in the most boring idea that's going to print money. Mm-hmm. And it's very confusing. 22:48 It was very confusing for me when I was first started, like, engaging in this world 'cause I'd be like, "Wait, why do they keep talking about this skill set, which is the skill set that I have?" 23:00 But, like, you go to the company, you look at what they're actually investing in, ChatGPT wrapper, ChatGPT wrapper, like- Mm-hmm... um, whatever, uh, go-to-market AI agent crap. Um, so 23:18 you have to take it all with a grain of salt. Um, and I think that's how you kind of defeat this mentality. Mm-hmm. Like, take from it what you want to and, like, what's useful to you. 23:33 But can't really expect people whose job is based on, like, predicting the next billion-dollar company, and now it's, like, more than a billion dollars 'cause there's, like, so many unicorns. 23:42 We've, we're experiencing, like, unicorn inflation. Like, you can't really expect them to, like, walk the walk, and they're not really telling the truth. Mm-hmm. 23:51 Um, but I think it's helpful to get a little bit of an edge in the attention economy that sort of surrounds investing. 24:00 So, like, doing thought leadership, being a good storyteller, like, coming up with new words for things, having a Substack, those are all things that will, like, get you in the room and get you intros. 24:10 But that's, like- Mm... not what you sell once you're in the room. Mm-hmm. And- Mm-hmm... it took me, like, maybe too long to figure that out. I think it took a lot of people too long to figure that out. 24:18 I can't even say that I have totally figured it out at this point. Um, but I think a lot of people pushing this narrative are full of shit, but I still think storytelling- [laughs]... 24:28 is important at the end of the day.Yeah, that, that, that, that is, yeah, that is interesting. I think, like, storytelling is kind of like the trendy word. 24:39 And like I've been thinking a lot about, like, pitching, pitching projects. Like I've... Like last one I started the Daniel Docs/Google Docs interview series, and now like 24:49 even how to help with- How do you quantify the success of that? Okay, yes. 24:53 Okay, so the, uh, to explain, uh, Daniel Docs is like the Google D- is a Google Docs interview series where I send someone a Google Doc and they get to suggest edits on, um, my copy and like answer questions. 25:06 Um, so how do I quantify the success of a Daniel Doc? I think there are two modes. I, I imagine you guys like feel this too. There's like the mode of like the very cynical, like, social media traffic mode. 25:21 So like when the person, the other, the interviewee accepts like collaboration, and then like it goes a little viral or like a one screenshot goes viral. 25:30 There's one where like it ends up in a Joanna Newsom Facebook group or something like that, where it travels. Mm. That's always like really exciting when it travels. 25:38 Um, but then there's kind of like the success to me is that when someone returns their Daniel Doc, and it really feels like they let themselves be the... To talk about story, to like be themselves in the doc. Mm. 25:50 And that's really exciting to me because like we're talking about like chasing trends, and so much right now is like video, video, video. And I'm like trying to be like we still need to, 26:01 uh, value the written word, but we need to find ways to like break through the noise with the written word. So like that to me is ex- is like... 26:09 The success is like when someone responds to one of the writing prompts and like really shows like their personality. Mm. Mm. Is it... Did you come up with this? 26:18 Like you were like editing somebody, and you're like, "Oh, I'm gonna screenshot this and post this"? Because that's basically what it is. It's like you... It's like- Um- Yeah... 26:26 I've been really, really like obsessed with Google Docs for years. So the long lore, my fascination with Google Docs started in San Francisco. The year is 2017. 26:36 [laughs] I'm dating around, and there's a Grindr prospect, and I accidentally click... I was like s- you know, lightly stu- like lightly going on the internet, seeing who he is. I lightly... 26:47 I click on his Google Doc portfolio. Mm. And I think I show up as like an anonymous giraffe or something like that, and then he tweets being like, "I see you in this Google Doc." And I was so horrified. 27:01 [laughs] And then- Did he know it was you? No, but it was- Anonymous giraffe... I think I was anonymous giraffe. But then, so I was always like so interested in how passive aggressive and like fun Google Docs can be. 27:17 Mm-hmm. Like, like, "Get out of this Google Doc," or like- Oh, did that to a guy yesterday... [laughs] It's like, "What are you doing in this Google Doc?" 27:24 And like the suggested edits and getting the emails with suggested edits in this exchange, and this kind of like deconstructive aspect to it. 27:32 So I, like last year I was just feeling in a place like a lot of writers, like, you know, like y- there's not that many places that are accepting like the mid-tier, like the middle ground- Mm... 27:43 of like people who are like, it's either the person has to be like super, super famous, you know? Um, and like no one's doing like the, the s- like you know, like the s- the medium, smaller artist, writer- Yeah... 27:54 um, or the person who's still coming up. 27:56 And I was like, "Okay, so how do I like spotlight this like podcast or this comedian or this writer that I really enjoy in a way that is like unique and also embraces my fear of self-publishing?" 28:05 Which is like the typos, the clunky sentences, the factual errors, all this stuff that like I get really obsessive about. I'm like, "Why don't I just like incorporate that into the process?" I love it. That's nice. 28:16 It's really novel, and I love a participatory interview. Thank you, and you guys did a great job on your Daniel Doc. Yeah, we had fun. [laughs] We did have fun. It was great. Um, 28:29 I wanna ask about an article that I admittedly have not read, but friend of the pod, Greta Rainbow- Oh, yeah. Speaking of Greta Rainbow... you just published a piece- Oh, yeah... where I read, I read the first [laughs] 28:39 I, I'll be honest- Oh, on Study Hall. Yeah... yeah, I read the first few, um [laughs] paragraphs before the subscriber gate, but I haven't read more. Tell me about this piece. Francis and I- Oh, the-... 28:47 sort of outgrew Study Hall, but- Ugh, ugh... it's okay. Okay. But so if you're listening, you can read it if you give us your email, top of the funnel strategy, people. And [laughs] - There you go... 28:59 and you'll j- and you'll get like a weekly, uh, or biweekly email from us. Study Hall has my email. I should've just logged in. I, I, I don't know. You sh- you should've logged in. You should... That's what I think... 29:08 you should've read it. Oh, my God. This is awful. But so, so but Greta's fantastic, and, um, it's this, uh, it's like this, uh, obituary for this Farmer's Almanac, uh, Almanac, and it's kind of like what I... 29:22 And it's talking about like w- why it... 29:25 Not like necessarily why it went out of business, but like what it means that it did and kind of like the fandom around it on like social media and why were people lamenting this, and how like esoteric and idiosyncratic this publication was. 29:39 And what I really like about it is that I feel like it's like the ideal Study Hall story 'cause it like highlights like, um, kind of like a, a corner of the media that's not really covered. Mm. 29:49 But it shows like what media means to like the people. Mm. Um, so yeah, and Greta did a, a great job, and, uh, my co-editor Eloise Goldsmith did a great job, uh, helping out with edits too. 30:00 Um, speaking of Study Hall, you've been doing... You host the podcast there I've been on. Uh, you've been doing it for just over a year. I think it's a year and two weeks as we record. There's been 55 episodes. Yes. 30:10 How's it going? It's going s- really, it, it's going well. Um, I think that plus Daniel Docs has shown me, uh, Daisy does a lot of like... 30:19 We do a lot of publicist posting sometimes where [laughs] you, where you talk about like publicists and like the booking and like that's the part I'm like getting used to is like booking and all the stuff and like, um, scheduling. 30:31 Today I'm actually-Downstairs, 'cause my fiance was like, "Your office is a mess, and you need to look good on this podcast." 30:39 [laughs] So I'm still learning what it means to look good on a podcast, and I'm sharing this- Mm-hmm... for transparency. Mm-hmm. 'Cause it [laughs] Because it- Our comment gave up after episode three. 30:49 I was like- [laughs]... this is not the spot. But it... I was gonna do Botox for this, but did not. But then- [laughs] I- you kept tweeting about it. 30:55 [laughs] I was saying, you should, you could, if you had the needles, you could do it yourself live on the podcast. I think the baby bangs are plenty. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Oh, thank you. Yeah. 31:03 It, it, um, but the podcast has been, it's been interesting. Like, it's just, um, the, the, like I really, I think I enjoy when someone has like a book- Mm... 31:13 and to like really like delve into the book, 'cause that was something I really enjoyed doing as like a culture writer. And now like talking through it has been ver- very like, um, illuminating. 31:24 And yeah, I think like, um, as you, uh, you guys are probably aware, like everyone has a take of like what, how media will survive. [laughs] What's gonna happen next in media. 31:33 So I just kinda treat it as like I'm picking people's brains. Mm-hmm. 31:37 I kind of like, not to be like I'm Joe Rogan, but I have kind of like the Joe Rogan style of interviewing, where I'm like, I like kind of like regurgitate what someone's saying back to them, but doesn't nec- necessarily mean like I totally agree. 31:50 But it's like that's kind of how I'm treating it as like, um, like I, I'm doing like a focus group of the week of like how media will survive. 31:57 What are some of like the more memorable recent how media will survive takes that people have been giving you? Um, so Max Tawny's, uh, is, is gonna be on the next episode that's, um, from Semafor. 32:10 And, and that was interesting because we were talking about like the different approaches to AI, and like I, 32:18 I started off as very like anti-AI, but like through reading, like listening to his interviews with David Remnick and like how other companies are kind of, uh... 32:27 Like just that was interesting, um, because of, we talk about like The Washington Post and their like s- really sloppy AI podcast and how awful that is. Mm-hmm. 32:35 Um, but that was good too because it was like legacy media acknowledging that they need to, um, let writers like be creators too and, uh, not like just creators, but like also have like their cult of personality and not be so touchy about them having Substacks and having their own personal brand. 32:55 Um, uh, Delia came on and she was, she had a lot of like, uh, smart things to say about the Bari Weiss deal. Um, yeah, those, those come to mind. 33:08 Some would say we have too much media about media, but I think mileage varies. Like for you- Guilty... where do you see the distinction between media about media that actually is teaching something- Mm... 33:23 or explaining something about the business, offering new information, and then media about media that's just sort of like a way of chasing clout with like a very small group of people? Um, oof. 33:37 I think, so like I feel like the, the clout... [clicks tongue] I'm always very wary of someone who's like hyping one product, one platform, one way of doing things. Mm. 33:54 And, um, it's funny 'cause like I was [clicks tongue] 34:00 it's, I think, I think it's more honest when people approach these topics as like you could make it really big on Substack, you could make it really big on Beehiiv, but doesn't mean you will. Mm-hmm. 34:10 And this is what it means, and this is what it takes. Yeah. And like I feel like Delia does a good job of that too, of like what is the hustle of- Alicia Kennedy is another person that comes to mind. Oh, yeah. 34:20 Alicia, we had Alicia on too, and she was great because she was talking about like how she approaches building community, building a Dis- uh, like she has like a Discord channel and like, um, we were talking about how like if people wanna hate, they'll have to pay to get into the Discord [laughs] and like- How are you hating from outside the Discord? 34:38 You can't even get in. [laughs] Exactly. [laughs] You have to get into the club- Ugh... pay the cover fee. But yeah, so I think like that. But the, the clout chasing of it all is, that's, I think it's so relative. 34:53 Like I'm, I'm sure somebody like it thinks like, "Oh, this..." Like, like I'm more of like I'm willing to talk to like most people, but some people have different lines in the sand of like who they're willing to talk to. 35:05 But for me, it's not about like clout, it's more about like perspective and information- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm... that can be valuable to the audience, whether they agree or disagree. Mm-hmm. 35:14 Well, you're also serving such a purpose with like the Study Hall community, right? It's like it's such a service to, to like writers and people trying to get work in the industry. 35:24 Yeah, and that's the thing is that like when I was, uh, designing the podcast or like the questions, I always try to like end on a note of like advice and like what advice they have. 35:34 But 'cause my goal is so that like it's accessible for people who are not writers and just are interested in the reporting this writer did or have like some sort of like, uh, are fans of the writer. 35:45 But also if a, if a writer's listening to be like, "Oh, like how did they do it? How will they do it next?" And it's pretty expansive. 35:52 Like, so, um, I know that, uh, Dirt published a piece about like braided essays and, um, so when I... And I feel like as a, as a writer too, like the braided essay, the braided memoir is so hard to pull off. 36:04 Um, so I always, when someone has like a braided essay that's really good or like a braided memoir, I'm like, "How did you do it? What's your approach?" 'Cause I know that's like very valuable to writers. 36:14 Um, there was a great braided essay. Actually, I wouldn't say it was braided. It was more like, um, it was in the style of Janet Malcolm, so it was like- Mm... numbered sections. 36:23 It's in the winter edition of The Yale Review. It's about divorce. I don't know if you saw it. Oh. It just came out yesterday. Oh, I heard people post it. It's really fantastic. I saw people post it. 36:31 Yeah, I gotta read that. Yeah. I thought that was great. Um-Yeah, we did write something about the braided essay. Uh [laughs] And, and wasn't it the, that self-same Greta Rainbow who wrote that? Greta, yes. Yeah. 36:43 Sh- that girl keeps coming up. Um, yeah, I think it's interesting. Craft is really important, and craft and power are not the same thing. 36:53 Like, as you were talking, I was thinking we are sort of in this golden age of the micro-celebrity. I know you were being, like, somewhat facetious, where you're like, "Oh, I'm not going after the micro-celebrities. 37:02 I'm, like, going after, like, the pre-micro celebrities." And it's like- Yeah, yeah... how far back do you wanna go? I feel like I can spot a pre-pre-micro celebrity at this point. 37:10 [laughs] And it's like everyone will be famous for 15 minutes, blah, blah, blah. Mm-hmm. You know, Andy Warhol said that 200 years ago. So I guess, like, 37:20 there is, uh, people who become micro-celebrities because of their craft, and people who co- become micro-celebrities because they're good at talking about and accumulating social power. Mm-hmm. 37:31 And it's hard to be a fence-sitter. 37:34 I feel like some of the most interesting people are fence-sitters, but I know where my allegiance lies, and it's always with people who become, um, who have a following for their craft. Mm-hmm. 37:46 And I don't think that they're mutually exclusive. I'm just like, "How many people can be on the power beat?" You know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like [laughs] somebody has to be creating, like, net new culture. Um, it's... 37:59 Everything's so muddied. I don't know if that is... Is that making sense? So you're talking like- Yeah... like media reporting as, like, a crowded field or, like, that the power beat is, like- I don't think-... 38:10 talking-... it's a crowded field in the sense that, like, media reporting is business reporting- Mm-hmm... is fashion reporting, is tech reporting, and that did not start with these writers. I think it started... 38:22 Like, if I had a, like, point in my mind where this, like, happened, it's like, you know, probably a- around when Entourage was first airing, when, like, tech people took over Art Basel, and, like, being a creative director was something that you could do, not just for a fashion house, but for, like, non-fashion brands. 38:40 I feel like that's the moment where, like, category collapse, like, really ramped up. Mm-hmm. Um, but I think Art Basel is such an... 38:50 I guess the city of Miami itself is such a flashpoint for this to me because I see people flying down to Basel that are like, you know, whatever, they trade Solana. And I'm like, "You do not belong there." 39:01 But then I'm like, "You know, maybe you do," and it's that the artists don't belong there anymore. And, like, you can have that- Yeah... till it falls into the ocean, basically. 39:08 [laughs] Well, I haven't been to Art Basel, but my impression is that it's, like, a lot of people who want, like, the affect of art and not, like, the art itself really. Yeah. 39:18 So it's like you think of, like, I mean, Marina Abramovic- But couldn't you say the same thing about power? Like, isn't- Yeah... 39:24 the problem with so many people who wanna call themselves writers or reporters or entrepreneurs, that they want the affect of power, but they don't want power itself and the responsibility that comes with it? Yeah. 39:37 I'm wondering, like, what, what you define as the responsibility of someone who makes it. 39:41 Well, I feel like this came up really early on this podcast, but I have this thing that I say, which is like, "You don't get the credibility of a media brand with the obligations of a zine." Mm. 39:53 People don't want to have to choose between doing a DIY zine side project and running a media company. 40:01 They really want is to do the DIY zine side product, project where they don't have to w- worry about, like, paying people in perpetuity or giving somebody health insurance or funding it- Mm-hmm... 40:10 or like, um, you know, explaining where they got the money to start it [laughs]. Um, but then they want people to look at them and be like, "You are the next Tina Brown." Mm-hmm. 40:21 And at a certain point, those paths diverge, and I think it's really painful because once you take on the mantle of, of power in the sense that, like, anyone who commissions writers has power, right? 40:35 Like, I have power 'cause somebody emails me, and they pitch me a story, and I have the $400 that they're gonna get paid- Mm... and they don't have that $400. So and I am in a position of power over them. 40:46 Like, once you get to that point, the risk is, like, if you make a mistake or you behave irresponsibly or somebody's unhappy with something that you did, you don't get to say like, "This is my side project, so who cares?" 40:58 Or like- Yeah... "No money exchanged," or like, "Well, like, you know, it's not like I'm after, like, a profile in The New York Times." Some people start off with The New York Times profile first and then- Mm... 41:10 still try to pull the DIY side project card. Um, and I think that, like, people are starting to get savvier about this, of like, "Wait a minute," like, "What's really going on here? What is the nature of this project?" 41:22 Um, but I think, like, uh, that I think people could kind of benefit, like, or people have used that sort of ambiguity to their advantage in the past. 41:31 And, like, it really is, like, a pet peeve of mine, um, 'cause I think- Mm... like, media literacy is, like, pretty low. And, like, you need to pick a lane and stick to it. 41:41 'Cause ultimately, like, the only person you're harming is yourself if you can't be clear about your ambitions and your expectations. Mm-hmm. 41:49 No, yeah, I think that, that is totally true, and I, I think, like, um, that's the thing I think a, a lot about with, like, my own, like, Substack projects is, like, is this, um, like, a business or, like, a zine project? 42:03 And, like, what is it? And, like, it's starting gaining momentum, and I'm like, ooh. Like, I, I'm thinking, I'm, like, to be transparent, it's like figuring out, it's like, when do I Paywall it, or what do I do? Yeah. 42:12 Or like, but I'm still, like, in the growth stage of it, and that is true. And it's like, and I feel like the, the... I, I think, like, everybody does make mistakes, but the, the, the... 42:28 For me, like, the zine aspect is about, like, self-expression- Mm... 42:33 and just letting, like, just let- letting the, the ideas rip and, like, let them, let it vibe, and not having the pressure of, like, of this has to be perfect, this has to... 42:44 And-But the zine mentality that I agree with you I don't vibe with is, like, uh, we'll pay... Like, we'll pay you with exposure or we'll pay you- Mm-hmm... with that, you know? 42:53 So I think, yeah, that, that is definitely, like, a, a, a dynamic and it's... And it, it is a sketchy dynamic. Well, do you... 43:00 Is Daniel Doc something you would paywall or, like, is it more of, like, like a Steam valve project where it's like this is just something you do for fun to, like, mess around and there's not the pressure? Um, what I... 43:12 I think, I, I think eventually I would paywall it, but now I'm just try- my goal is to get Lena Dunham to do a Daniel Doc- [laughs]... and then after that happens, I, I'll get back to you. Mm. So. 43:21 [laughs] Then you can, then you can print the book. Then you can print the zine. [laughs] Yeah. So I think of it as, like, a, I think, I, I view it as, like, um, a long-term project. And, um, 43:32 and I also view it as, like, fundamentally as a place to spotlight authors- Mm... because authors, as you guys are likely aware, like, like, book coverage is kind of dead at mainstream outlets. 43:46 Or, like, not completely dead, but it's not... It's either happening in-house or they're just writing about the same five books. And, um- Well, I even know that from, uh, the publicists I've interacted with. 43:58 [laughs] But, um... So I, I... So on Thursday, I'm releasing, like, the Daniel Doc syllabus- Mm... for 2025. Um, and it's, like, all the authors I interviewed and their books, like, with bookshop links. And so I... 44:15 And that's, like, an experiment for me. I'll, like, dig into the data of, like, the links and all that- Mm... to see, like, what... Like, like, I, like, what would the Daniel Docs version of a gift guide be? Mm. 44:27 So yeah, that... But you were talking about the, the publicist. Like, so you're, you're saying that the publicist still thinks that- Well, here's a, here's a timely example. Oh. 44:34 Um, I couldn't get a galley of American Pento. I, I had a writer who wanted to review it, and I have a conspiracy theory about this actually. [laughs] So some people did get galleys obviously, but some people- Mm-hmm... 44:46 weren't... I know other people weren't able to get them 'cause they tweeted. 44:48 Um, I, I was like, "I don't wanna admit this publicly," but I'm okay with it now 'cause I have a broader point, which is this conspiracy theory. 44:55 I think Simon & Schuster realized this book is fucking torched, like, we're fucked. Like, Olivia- Yeah... is not gonna do a real press tour. Um, this line... Ryan Lisa's stuff's coming down the pipeline. 45:07 Everyone's gonna realize she's full of shit. So who are the only people that are gonna buy this book? Mm. Journalists and people who are interested in the media industry and publishing. Mm. 45:19 And who usually gets books for free as galleys? Those same people. I think they realized- Oh... if they gave galleys to everyone who was asking for one, that was going to be books sold... Like, a book sale- I-... 45:32 that they would not make, and they were like- Yeah... "Shit, we can, like, sell 500 books right now if we just refuse to give out galleys to these 500 people who normally would get galleys of, like, anything." 45:43 Sally Rooney, fucking anything. [laughs] I've never had trouble getting a galley before. I completely agree with this. My response was like, "Honestly, fuck you." Yeah. 45:50 [laughs] And, like, I was not actually going directly with her publicist, I was speaking with another publicist at the imprint that I actually really like. Shout out to Rina if you're listening to this. But, like, 46:01 when it wasn't, like, immediate, "Yes, I'm sending you a PDF right now," I was like, "Oh, suddenly? I actually, first of all, don't even care anymore. Second of all, like, you've made an enemy." 46:12 [laughs] So, I mean- Yeah... not that I wasn't already an enemy, but, like, I was like, "This is actually a ridiculous way to do a book promotion cycle." 46:21 And if you look at, like, we have something coming out today that isn't only about Olivia Newsey, but talks about- Mm... like, her underperformance, and she did... 46:30 We're calling it, like, a tightly controlled clout optimized dirt bag book tour- Mm... where she wanted to hit Adam Friedland, she wanted to hit Feed Me, she wanted to hit How Long Gone. 46:38 I'm sure she's gagging for a Throwing Fits invite if she's not already recording with them. I'm sure she's gagging to be on Perfectly Imperfect if she hasn't already been interviewed. And it's like, we get it. 46:47 But you know who pays attention to that? 10,000 people maybe. Yeah. 10,000 bicoastal people, and, uh, you're gonna convert maybe 10% of them into buying the book. 46:58 Um, so to me, it's like, Simon & Schuster, like, shame on them honestly for not having better control of their writer. Like, you're gonna pay an advance to somebody, and you can't get them to do real fucking press? 47:12 Like, shame on you. Shame on you, 'cause all of the hardworking writers who would actually go there, out there and sell their shit to people who aren't clouted... 47:21 Like, if you look at real writers, like, real serious writers like Erin Somers, um, Erin Somers had an amazing... And she's a friend of mine obviously. She had an amazing press tour for her book, right? Mm. 47:33 But she sat with, I- from my perspective, every sub stack that asked her, every newsletter that asked her. She s- She was on the Study Hall podcast. She- Yes. She was on this... 47:42 Which I, and I wouldn't even say like, oh- Yeah... smell potatoes, Study Hall podcast. Yeah. [laughs] You know, our friend Ethan, who- Yeah... you had on the podcast, and we had a great conversation with Ethan. 47:50 Ethan doesn't have a huge audience for his sub stack, but he interviews interesting people, and he interviewed Erin. Mm. Like, 47:56 the fact that, like, somebody thinks that they're above that when, like, nobody buys books, you're gonna turn down the opportunity to sell, yeah, maybe a few copies, it's like, you're not above it. 48:08 Your publisher's not above it. And all you're doing is contributing to the death spiral of this industry. Yeah. I remember her, her... Yes. I, I totally agree. And I think- Yeah. Nobody wants to get out... 48:19 Nobody wants to work anymore. Get out there and work. Nobody... Exactly. The wise words of Kim Kardashian. 48:24 But, uh, because the book scan, when your book scan numbers leak in the first week, that means someone has a vendetta against you. But- [laughs] No, it's- But- I don't see it that way. It's not... To me, it's not a leak. 48:36 Like, okay, so I've recently- Oh, it's not a leak, but yeah... looked into this 'cause I was like, "Maybe I could buy BookScan." Why did I think I could buy BookScan? I don't know. 48:43 [laughs] So BookScan, Nielsen sold it to, like, a private equity group that, like- Yeah... rebundled it with some other, like, data services. Mm. BookScan's a data service. 48:53 The taboo around, like, making those numbers public, it was only a taboo. It was considered impolite. Why? We don't know. Like, is it impolite to say how many protein bars David has sold?No. No. We love doing that. Yeah. 49:06 So I was like, I think it's good that this taboo has been broken because numbers are power. Yeah. Um, everyone always said, "Oh, BookScan's so expensive. It's prohibitively expensive." I looked into it. 49:18 This is what I think it is. Maybe I'm missing some sort of qualifier. 2,500 a year. Oh. Now, do I wanna pay that? No. [laughs] Could I pay it? Yes, I could. 49:28 Like, if Dirt did another round of funding, like, I would be going ham in BookScan like Scrooge McDuck and those dollar bills because it's so fascinating. 49:37 You guys should do, like, BookScan PopCrave, BookCrave, and it's like- Dude... like We would start a newsletter [laughs] We would start a newsletter that was just rerunning their numbers. Um- But- Yeah... 49:48 the th- the, uh, point about the Olivia Nuzzi memoir, which I have, but I bought it using credit card points, so it felt- [laughs]... ethically neutral. Totally. But- Can't... 50:00 That's canceled out But- [laughs] Are we talking, like, Chase Sapphire here? I- I'm not gonna reveal which credit card. [laughs] But I used it- Respect that... I used credit card points. Yeah. 50:08 And I, I have it because I, for me, it felt like a novel- I like novelty books, like novelty memoirs. Mm-hmm. And I was like, "I need this for my collection." I also have, like, Barbra Streisand's book. 50:18 Will I ever read it? Probably not. Did you buy- But it was-... Barbra Streisand's book with credit card points? No, I was g- uh, someone gave it to me, but I'm, like, keeping it- Okay... 50:24 because it's like I collect these, like, novelty celebrity memoirs, and this is such a moment. Mm. 50:28 But, um, I was, for my Max Tawny episode for The Study Hall podcast, I was listening to his conversation with Derek Thompson, the Abundance guy. Mm-hmm. 50:37 And he was talking about how Abundance sold, like, hundreds of thousands of copies, but his theory, he was using, like, this metaphor about, like, pebbles in a river- Mm... or boulders in a river. 50:48 Like, what books now are about, like, all the content around books, and, like, the conversations. And I totally agree with you, like, this, that they really, really f- like, fucked up the PR for it. 51:00 But when Ryan Lizza was releasing those Substack posts, and it got hundreds and- And still is. Like, he did one yesterday. I was like- He needs to stop. "Read the room" He needs to stop. [laughs] "Read the room." 51:09 [laughs] Like, Rogner and his wife were just murdered. Yeah, enough. But, uh, that got hundreds of thousands of views supposedly, like all the Substacks, and went vi- very, very viral. 51:21 And to me it's just, like, a no, like, hearing Derek Thompson's take, I was like, th- whatever, to actually get someone to buy the Olivia Nuzzi book, I feel like most people already, like, feel like they know what the fuck- Yeah... 51:33 is in that book. 100%, yeah. And they already know- That's what Thompson says, yeah... 51:36 and, like, the, they already know, like, the Ryan, like, it's more of the spectacle of, like, these unhinged- What new gossip is there gonna be in there? Exactly. 51:44 So it's kind of like an interactive media piece, and it, it doesn't, like, the book itself does not matter because she's become, like, an abstraction of herself now. No, the book's an excuse to do the podcast. 51:55 You heard about it everywhere. Yeah. You heard about it everywhere. What you didn't hear everywhere was people telling you to buy and read the book. No one, yeah. You just heard about it. Well, the, the- Yeah... 52:03 I listened to that, um, Max's podcast with Derek Thompson as well, and, like, yeah, the point he was making was that, like, uh, going on pod- You guys have a lot of free time, huh? 52:10 Going on podcasts is a terrible way- [laughs]... to sell books because, because you're just putting all the ideas out there in the hour-long conversation, so it's like, why would I- I'm saving that for after-... 52:20 buy the book?... my lobotomy. What? After lobotomy? [laughs] Saving Abundance? I'm saving Abundance for after my lobotomy, yeah. A- after Abundance? I'll read it if I get COVID [laughs] again. Mm. 52:28 I don't, I really don't understand Abundance. I've had multiple people try to explain it to me. I don't get it. Yeah. 52:33 But, you know, I think, like, the, yeah, going on podcasts and revealing too much about the book itself, and as someone who, like, interviews authors in multiple mediums about their books, I think- Also crying. 52:46 Who cries? Crying, yeah. Who cries? On the podcast? She cr- she cried on a pod- she cried. No crying in podcasting. On a, well, it was on the, um- Bulwark... on the Bulwark one with Tim Barber. Yeah. Right? Yeah. 52:57 Didn't she, like, leave? She, like, left after that. She did. Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. I wouldn't have let her come back. I would've said, "Goodbye." Did she came back? What? 53:04 We're doing a sock puppet of you now- [laughs]... 'cause you left. [laughs] We're doing, we're doing an AI version. Do you think she'll do a subway take? Is it animation? 53:11 [laughs] I don't think she c- I don't think she c- I don't think she can do the subway take. 'Cause they don't have that in LA. I don't know. They don't have... We actually do have a subway. 53:19 [laughs] If Kareem tries to leave New York State, he actually gets zapped. [laughs] We need Karen, Mayor Karen Bass to- Bust, bust down... inaugurate one of our m- we have, we actually have metros in LA. Dude, yeah. 53:30 So the Purple Line is being built, so she needs to be there for the first day of the Purple Line, uh, with Olivia Nuzzi, and she needs to, like, say one take about why it's okay if your lover has a brain worm, and, like, that's the four minutes. 53:43 Um, I wanna pivot us off of Nuzzi here. Daniel, you're a prolific Letterboxd user, and I stalked- Oh, my God... your Letterboxd. Um- Oh, God. I particularly- Here we go... 53:53 was drawn to your review of Weapons, the 2025 film, which- Oh, Lord... your review in full is, "A movie about what Partyful.com is doing to all of us." Please say more. Mm. Oh, my God. So I hate Partyful. 54:09 [laughs] I fucking hate Partyful. [laughs] And I have a Substack post about, called We Need To Talk About Partyful. Welcome to the resistance. 54:15 And I hated it before people were like, "It's connected to Palantir," and I'm like, I didn't know that information. I just knew this shit was bad. Like, I sensed it. [laughs] I sensed it. 54:24 [laughs] But I just thought, like, Weapons to me, oof, it's like a, it was, like, ab- about being activated by a dark force or something like that. Yeah. 54:32 And I feel like Partyful is activating something really dark in all of us. And, like, you go to, like, you go on Partyful, and, um, like, the emojis really piss me off. Mm. The notifications really piss me off. 54:46 It does feel demonic. And I remember when I wrote that essay for my Substack about Partyful, like, I got a Part- I had a Partyful invite, and it was, and it was for my friend's picnic in Echo Park. Oh. 54:58 And there was kind of, like, some, like, tension at the picnic 'cause they were like- [laughs]... "You wrote a Substack essay shading the platform we used to so graciously invite you to this event." 55:09 And I was like, "Ugh, God. Geez. Ow." Well, I think I've said a lot of negative things- [laughs]... on this podcast. 55:14 But if I could say something positive, I really like the way Robbie Hoffman's press tour is going right now. And I saw a clip of her stand-up on TikTok. She was talking about Partyful.Oh. She said... 55:25 It's, it's Robbie Hoffman, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, she was, like, invited to a grown man's birthday party on Partiful, but her take wasn't Partiful is bad. 55:32 She actually took it further and said grown men shouldn't have birthday parties. Ah. Ooh. Yeah. But I- Mm... my thing about her, I actually quote tweeted her Subway take. Let's have it. 55:40 Rare engagement with Subway takes for me before we came on here. Even when she's wrong, she's right. The, the way that she expresses herself- It's the confidence... is so persuasive to me- Yeah... 55:49 that I'm like, "Yep, she's right. Grown men shouldn't have birthday parties." [laughs] It's like a, it's like a Fran Lebowitz thing. Like, like, like, I don't know what that... Like, you... 55:57 Like, you know, like, I don't know what you were gonna say, and it's like- Fran Lebowitz really has a choke hold on you, Daniel. I know. It's an obsession. Why not do a Fran Lebowitz, Daniel Dot? 56:03 Oh, 'cause she can't write. [laughs] I... [laughs] Wow. She could dictate it- Okay... maybe to somebody. Wow. I was fired. Okay. Maybe she could dictate it to Graydon. Well, full- Through a cigarette... 56:12 full transparency, I've emailed Fran's publicist 'cause she was gonna be... She was performing at Irv- in the Ir- University of Irvine. I wanted to be able to- Why does she have a publicist? I don't know. 56:23 Uh- Why don't I have a publicist? Wait, why? [laughs] Do I have one? I have two agents. It's you, Daniel. It's, you're the publicist. [laughs] I have two agents. Yeah. 56:32 I just might be- I want a pu- I do want a publicist, but I feel like I would be a little obsessed. I'll be your publicist, Daniel. Maybe we can just swap trade. Oh. Swap. I'll, I'll do it. Why not? Yeah. 56:41 Um, I'll do a suit on him. But yeah, I s- I actually saw her, Fran Lebowitz talk in University of Irvine. I wrote about it for s- Study Hall. Hm. 56:51 And I compared it to when I was, like, really obsessed with Pokemon as a first grader. Hm. And my mom threw me, like, a Pokemon birthday party with, like, a petting zoo, like, these lizards are specific Pokemon. 57:03 And I, at the middle of the party, I was like, "I'm over, I'm over Pokemon, Mom." [laughs] And she was so- You're, like, pulling her aside. You're like, "Hey, Mom, enough of this." "Mom, I, I'm done." 57:11 [laughs] And, like, in my history of being a, like a, a Jewish American princess, like, that was an early moment. But yeah, I guess the... And when I was at the... 57:20 Like, I couldn't actually, like, interact with Fran Lebowitz content for, like- [laughs]... months and months and months after. I'm so sorry that happened to you. 57:25 Seeing her, seeing her live because, you know, I was like, "Okay, this is such a shtick. This is such a shtick." But she, she was pretty charming live. Hm. Yeah. [laughs] It was pretty good. 57:35 Have you ever been invited to a Luma? What is a Luma? L-U-M-A. 57:41 It's like the other, other Partyful, but to me, from what I can tell, the difference is that Lumas are things you pay for, and it's like you're buying a ticket to it. Hm. But it's like- Yeah, I've used a Luma... 57:48 it's like, it's like extra evil Partyful. I've used it. I've used it. Really? Yeah. It sounds like, like a, a lunar, like, uh, like let's all, like, watch the full moon with your molecule- Totally... vibe. 58:01 [laughs] Like, but, and, but you have to pay $25 a month for this service. Celestial dark patterns. $25 for gas. And then... Yeah, exactly. Like, I, I, I don't know. I... 58:09 See, the thing about Partiful, going back to my thought against Partiful, it's like I miss Facebook Events because Facebook Events- Mm... was very straightforward- Hm... 58:18 of, like, you're invited to this event, and you could be quirky in the Facebook event. Yeah. And it was kind of contained. Well, and we were, like, 21. Yeah. We were 21. We hadn't... 58:26 Yeah, we, we were more willing to go to things. Mm-hmm. Yeah. What's, uh... Okay, last thing on your letterbox, what's the worst movie you've seen this year? Oh my God, the worst movie. 58:37 Okay, so I like, I'm the type of person who's like, the worst movie is also the best movie. So, like- Hm... I just saw Ella McKay, and that movie's such a mess. But I was like, I... 58:47 That, my Letterbox review was, like, how I could watch it for, like, eight more hours. [laughs] It's like The Materialists for kids that did student gov. 58:53 [laughs] Oh, I just watched, we watched The Materialists, uh, like, a week ago. Hm. Solid 2.5, maybe a two. It was, it was, it was- [laughs]... just such a, like... 59:01 It was just like you're kind of on a conveyor belt and being moved through, like, a, like, two degree above body temperature chamber for, like, a couple hours. Mm. Yeah. 59:10 I, I will watch anything with Dakota Johnson in it. Oh, I'll tell you. That, her open relationship movie, what's it called? The- I don't know... one, Dakota Johnson's- It's called, like, Splitsville? Uh, Splitsville. Mm. 59:22 Yeah. Splitsville. I would say that was the... Oh, everybody saw that. I was looking up Splitville. Splitsville, worst movie I saw this year. So also the best. I hated it. [laughs] No. 59:31 Ah, like, to put it- Actually the best. This is not a five-star, three-star movie... that was actually bad. That was actually so bad that I, I wasn't charmed by it. [laughs] I was like, "This is just- Interesting... 59:38 this is fucking stupid. This is a stupid movie." And I, yeah, that was, I think, my least favorite movie. Because- Did you turn any movies off this year? Like, just, or leave the theater? So I never leave the theater. 59:49 I, like, I'm always... I'm, like, I... If it's the Titanic, like, Larry David once said, like, with friendships, he's like that. Yeah. Like, he goes down with the ship. I'm like that with the movie. Mm. I'm AMC A-list. 1:00:00 My fiancé's also AMC A-list. The stakes are low because you're just locked in, and, like, you don't really pay. So, like, I'll just... I'll, I'll really see anything. I've never walked out of a theater. 1:00:08 So this is, like, the millennial, uh, [tsks] timeshare. It is kind of a timeshare. [laughs] Yeah. And yeah. You're locked in. Your space is already paid for. [laughs] Might as well go see some slop. Go see some slop. 1:00:20 Yeah, exactly. But I think sh- turning off something, the last show, I was like, I actually do not know how I'll finish this, is All's Fair. Mm. I stopped at episode seven. 1:00:31 And I was like, "This is actually exceptionally, really, really bad." Ryan Murphy might need to, like, uh- This, this is the one with Kim Kardashian?... go to the House. Yeah. 1:00:42 He might need to testify in Congress about this one. Oh. [laughs] It's really bad. But [laughs] it's really bad. The last show I didn't finish, I watched, like, I think the first two seasons of The Bear. 1:00:51 Um, and then- Hm... I, I, I finished, finished the second season and realized I never needed to boot that up again. I did the same thing. The Bear, yeah, so I think season one of The Bear is... 1:01:03 I would say that show was not about restaurants. It was about workaholics- Mm... and people who are like, who have, like, an existential breakdown at, like, 11:00 AM- [laughs]... because, like, an email went bad. 1:01:12 And, like, you, you, and you want it to be in a restaurant because, like, if it was at a restaurant, like, you don't have to explain Google Docs. Then you can justify yelling. It's, like, a good sandwich. 1:01:19 Everyone likes good sandwiches. Not everyone likes, like, your essays. Like, that's what that show is about. And- Mm... I stopped after season one and two 'cause I was like, "I'm good with this. I'm, I'm good with this." 1:01:30 I feel like everyone likes good sandwiches, not everyone likes your essay, is a perfect note to end this podcast on. [laughs] That's it. That's the thesis. Daniel, thank you so much for joining us. 1:01:38 Aw, thank you for having me. I had such a good time. Perfect. Listener, we'll see you next week. 1:01:43 [outro music]
